Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

[LansXero]

In 'What's in the Box' news (spoiler alert, it's not Gwen's head);

Yeah...The pics were leaked ages ago.
Space Marine players very clearly get shafted as it's arguably one of the worst 'starter boxes' I've ever seen. You could argue that that the Assault Intercessors can be made as two units of five, but they definitely aren't painted that way. Any Space Marine player 'going halves' in the box, is getting screwed. My guess is that this is why Know No Fear isn't going away. It's too good a box to get rid of. If I played Space Marines, I'd be pretty mad right about now...

The Necrons look great. It feels far more like a a new Necron box, and that the Space Marines just shouldn't be in it.
Isn't that what they did for Sisters? Yeah. They should've done that. Just make it a Necron box.

The price tag is almost assuredly too stupid for words, and I don't think GW-in-Australia is going to sell many boxes. Actually, they'll probably sell a lot...Just not at retail price.

Its not evergreen, so its worthless as an starter.

DI, First Strike and KNF are being phased out of the BS:F range for stockists.

It'll likely show up later but not as push to fit, as ETB Intercessors are also being phased out (perhaps reboxed?).

Its weird, because its like they are so eager to **** on 8th they'll even try to erase what it did well: affordable evergreen cool starters not bloated with a rulebook.

[LeSwordfish]

Its weird, because its like they are so eager to **** on 8th they'll even try to erase what it did well: affordable evergreen cool starters not bloated with a rulebook.

Seems vastly more likely they'll replace them with equivalents for ninth.

[Avaris]

Its not evergreen, so its worthless as an starter.

DI, First Strike and KNF are being phased out of the BS:F range for stockists.

It'll likely show up later but not as push to fit, as ETB Intercessors are also being phased out (perhaps reboxed?).

Its weird, because its like they are so eager to **** on 8th they'll even try to erase what it did well: affordable evergreen cool starters not bloated with a rulebook.

I'm suspecting a new 'starter set' range: they've been quite keen to emphasize that this isn't a starter set, but instead just for the launch of the new edition. I wonder if they found that people were confused about whether they needed to get Dark Imperium, rather than First Strike/Know no Fear? Having the only starter set be more along the size of FS/KNF seems sensible.

[LansXero]

Hopefully, although Im not sure why not lead with that instead of this. I just dislike whale, sorry, "collector" pandering, I guess.

I'm suspecting a new 'starter set' range: they've been quite keen to emphasize that this isn't a starter set, but instead just for the launch of the new edition. I wonder if they found that people were confused about whether they needed to get Dark Imperium, rather than First Strike/Know no Fear? Having the only starter set be more along the size of FS/KNF seems sensible.

How is that confusing? Just get... the one you like better? The contents are very clearly spelled out on both the back of the box and any site you're getting it from if you dont have a box at hand.

[LeSwordfish]

Hopefully, although Im not sure why not lead with that instead of this. I just dislike whale, sorry, "collector" pandering, I guess.

Well, because people who've barely heard of warhammer aren't watching the stream.

[LansXero]

Well, because people who've barely heard of warhammer aren't watching the stream.

The lifeblood of any community is new player acquisition. While I understand what you're saying, for me thats exactly why its wrong; people who are invested will chase news on their own and are scoffing because they already got the leaks a long time ago. Its the newblets you need to chase and get in, but not with a limited edition huge ass expensive box.

[Avaris]

Hopefully, although Im not sure why not lead with that instead of this. I just dislike whale, sorry, "collector" pandering, I guess.

They lead with it because the people watching the stream are the hardcore fans: the starter sets don't interest them, whereas a 'celebration' box does.

(Though I really hate the 'limited edition, buy it now' vibe going here)

How is that confusing? Just get... the one you like better? The contents are very clearly spelled out on both the back of the box and any site you're getting it from if you dont have a box at hand.

You're a new player, you go into a shop, see the big starter set (Dark Imperium) and think 'wow, that's too expensive' and leave without even seeing the smaller boxes next to it.

Also, having a large box implies that box is 'necessary', when it isn't: all the rules are in the smaller box. But it gives the impression you aren't getting the full experience.

FS and KNF are good because they lower the barrier to entry. Having a large box makes the barrier seem higher. Of course, they may well still have a new large box yet to preview, but if they don't, this'll be why. (I'm almost certain there will be new starter sets)

(and obviously, this problem is reduced by having a staff member in the shop to explain, but thinking of my FLGS, which has many different games and comics, 40k is at the back of the room and the staff aren't experts, so a newcomer would not have a clue what to get as a reasonable starting point).

[LansXero]

Thats just a bad floor plan / bad hires, but I'll concede the point. Lets hope new and reasonable starters show up soon

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, my local shop puts the miniature games front and center. When someone wants to play 40k they'll boot the card players to the tables in the back of the room so the game that actually looks interesting to people walking in the door will be where they can see it from the door.

[Avaris]

Thats just a bad floor plan / bad hires, but I'll concede the point. Lets hope new and reasonable starters show up soon

Hopefully! The other reason I think we're likely to see them is GW is increasingly wanting to push into the more mass market stores with a small number of products: it's been an occasional thing for a while, so new, small starter sets seem like something they'll want to push.

[Cheesegear]

Hopefully, although Im not sure why not lead with that instead of this. I just dislike whale, sorry, "collector" pandering, I guess.

I hate anything that scalpers can use against the consumer. 'Limited Editions' take the cake. Remember when that Sororitas box that was going for $1500 USD?

[druid91]

Thats just a bad floor plan / bad hires, but I'll concede the point. Lets hope new and reasonable starters show up soon

Not uncommon though. There's a reason I don't tend to play at the FLGS and oftentimes just order online. They have 40k stuff, but they're far more invested in Pokemon/Magic cards and D&D. 40k and AoS are crammed onto an about eight foot long by six foot tall set shelves used as a separator between store space and play area. And most of the employees have no idea what the stuff is.

Combine that with their habit of letting the guy who actively dislikes warhammer handle putting in all the warhammer orders, and you get all kinds of issues.

[LansXero]

And most of the employees have no idea what the stuff is.

Combine that with their habit of letting the guy who actively dislikes warhammer handle putting in all the warhammer orders, and you get all kinds of issues.

Yes, bad hires. Your employees should not color their job with their gamey perceptions or preferences. And not knowing the stuff they'll handle at least in passing means they have no place on the sales floor. This is why hiring gamers is a terrible idea; its easier to teach games to a salesman than to teach sales skills to a gamer.

[Avaris]

Yes, bad hires. Your employees should not color their job with their gamey perceptions or preferences. And not knowing the stuff they'll handle at least in passing means they have no place on the sales floor. This is why hiring gamers is a terrible idea; its easier to teach games to a salesman than to teach sales skills to a gamer.

In the case of my FLGS, it's because it's primarily a comics store that happens to carry GW products and other board games. They don't have playing space, painted models on display, anything like that. I get the impression there are different levels of engagement for stores - some will just have a couple of racks of product, others go much more into it.

(also there's an actual GW a few streets away, so anyone really keen to learn will go there. I go to FLGS for most of my purchases to support them, and because it's a litle cheaper)

[druid91]

Yes, bad hires. Your employees should not color their job with their gamey perceptions or preferences. And not knowing the stuff they'll handle at least in passing means they have no place on the sales floor. This is why hiring gamers is a terrible idea; its easier to teach games to a salesman than to teach sales skills to a gamer.

To be fair, most of the hires are literally the store owners children.

[LansXero]

To be fair, most of the hires are literally the store owners children.

On the 'well they just dabble in it' front, its still money thats been spent on stuff that has to be sold. I get that not everyone will be super into it, but why do you bring in a line to let it orphaned and sabotage it? Many owners in the LGS groups that Im in sound profesional, centered and smart, but so many also sound so amateurish. Like people I wouldn't hire to mop the floors bad, let alone put in charge of a business.

Now, if you're staffing your family business, thats actually worse. Thats where you eat from, why arent you trying your best? Even if its just a side hustle for your parents, it doing well means you doing well :s. But then, Im probably looking too hard into it.

I'd be curious though if someone had an article or numbers about the impact, both positive and negative, that LGS as someone's point of contact with the hobby have in its growth / sustainability. We can exchange anecdotes both awesome and dreadful, but I wonder if someone has collated something more concrete.

[Cheesegear]

New Quad-Bike revealed. Looks terrible. Everyone thought it was going to be a Skimmer, like a Land Speeder.
New emplaced weapon platform looks terrible.

Man, it'll suck to be a Space Marine player, having to buy your third Codex in 2 years.
"Now that everyone has their Codecies, we can do Space Marines for ever and ever and ever and ever..."

Thanks, I hate it.

[LansXero]

New Quad-Bike revealed. Looks terrible. Everyone thought it was going to be a Skimmer, like a Land Speeder.
New emplaced weapon platform looks terrible.

Man, it'll suck to be a Space Marine player, having to buy your third Codex in 2 years.
"Now that everyone has their Codecies, we can do Space Marines for ever and ever and ever and ever..."

Thanks, I hate it.

The weapon platform is a double Supressor weapon, so I dont see it being too popular. Wonder if it'll have options like the Eldar weapons platform at least. The memecar does look silly,, likely expensive in $ so I hope its junk so it can be ignored like the ork buggies were.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's likely intended as the Attack Bike replacement.

[Blackhawk748]

It's likely intended as the Attack Bike replacement.

Did anyone even use those?

[LansXero]

It's likely intended as the Attack Bike replacement.

Arent the new bikes the new... bikes? O_O

[Renegade Paladin]

Arent the new bikes the new... bikes? O_O

Yes, but do you see an attack bike sidecar in there? Because I don't. Meanwhile, they have pictures of this thing next to a bike squad, possibly as part of it.

[Aresneo]

Arent the new bikes the new... bikes? O_O

Attack Bike is a separate unit from bikers, more like a trike with a gunner in a side car. Apparently the last 4 minis revealed today are going to be easy to build so they should be fairly cheap at least.

[Cheesegear]

Did anyone even use those?

Attack Bikes were good because they were the cheapest way to fill Brigades, and they came with Heavy Bolters. Ultramarine Brigades have always been the business.

White Scars players were tricked into thinking Attack Bikes were 'good', until they realised that Attack Bikes still had 'the Suppressor problem' (more accurately, the Scourge problem), in that you don't need to move your Heavy weapons forwards, because that's what a good range is for. Then it was back to fielding Thunderfire Cannons, and the only Chapter who should use Attack Bikes were back to being Ultramarines, and only if you were making a Brigade.

So to answer your question...Ultramarines player use Attack Bikes...Rarely.

[Forum Explorer]

Kind of annoyed Nid fliers didn't make the cut.

If they move to Fast Attack, they might be pretty decent. Also being able to stay in combat and shoot might make them better.

Yeah, my local shop puts the miniature games front and center. When someone wants to play 40k they'll boot the card players to the tables in the back of the room so the game that actually looks interesting to people walking in the door will be where they can see it from the door.

Same thing, different method with just making really good game tables for people to play on. It's not just a mat, it's a full on table with nice wood and everything and it looks good.

New Quad-Bike revealed. Looks terrible. Everyone thought it was going to be a Skimmer, like a Land Speeder.
New emplaced weapon platform looks terrible.

Man, it'll suck to be a Space Marine player, having to buy your third Codex in 2 years.
"Now that everyone has their Codecies, we can do Space Marines for ever and ever and ever and ever..."

Thanks, I hate it.

I actually like how the Quad-Bike and Emplaced weapons look. Though the Emplaced Weapons seriously look like they belong in a Guard army.

Unless the Quad-Bike is the size of a new Ork Buggy (IE, a Land Raider) then I hate them.

Pretty much why I've looked into alternatives to buying Codexs. If I'm spending 60$, I'll at least buy a new model box. Not a book that will only be valid for a year or two.

[Cheesegear]

I actually like how the Quad-Bike and Emplaced weapons look.

The Onslaught Cannon looks like it's placed directly in the wrong spot, like it's designed to take off the Driver's head at some point. If I didn't know any better, I'd say the Driver was also going to sustain significant damage to his ears.

Though the Emplaced Weapons seriously look like they belong in a Guard army.

So what you're saying is that they'll look out of place in a Marine army, and thus, look terrible.

[Renegade Paladin]

I mean, they're both ripoffs of Guard models, the Tauros assault vehicle and the Sabre platform respectively.

[LeSwordfish]

I sort of like the emplaced weapon, but cannot stand the quad-bike.

[Avaris]

My gut reaction to the quadbike was unfavourable, but I think that’s partially to do with the angle it’s seen at in the main image; it looks too short. Seeing a side on view, I’m a bit more positive, though I think there should be more of a canopy shield for the driver at the front.

[Fable Wright]

So that's 120 space marine model releases since the last Tyranid model to come out, and just about the same for IG.

*confetti*