Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

[Voidhawk]

Wait, the ATV isn't a vehicle? But it's got 4 wheels, 2 crew and multiple guns: it's the definition of a light open-topped vehicle! Why should it not count but Ork buggies (and Tau Piranhas) do?

The dumbest thing about the turret, is that it has a move value of 3". What part of it looks even remotely movable? At least the Thunderfire had the decency to be on tracks.

All in all, I give these releases a full 5/7 of GW-Dumbness. Scoring max points in "OP Rules", "Stupid Design", "Invalidating Other Models" and "Marine Favouritism".

[Wraith]

Your limb is shaky and bad.
Remember kids, Outriders have 4 Wounds, base.
An ATV is two Marines, on a Quadbike. It tracks that GW would be frittata'd and give it 8 Wounds.

Your reasoning is rock-solid, but nonetheless I maintain that it's a bad decision by the designer. Rhinos have only 10 wounds and they are literally armoured personnel carriers, so however ATVs compare to Outriders just makes it egregious by that comparison.

Hell, Land Raiders have 16 wounds - does the ATV look like, or represent, something even remotely half as durable as a Land Raider?

Wait, the ATV isn't a vehicle? But it's got 4 wheels, 2 crew and multiple guns: it's the definition of a light open-topped vehicle! Why should it not count but Ork buggies (and Tau Piranhas) do?

According to it's keywords, it's a Bike rather than a Vehicle. Compared to the Attack Bike - 2 crew, 3 wheels, multiple guns - I guess kinda-sorta works? It's a bad design choice, but a valid one.

The dumbest thing about the turret, is that it has a move value of 3". What part of it looks even remotely movable? At least the Thunderfire had the decency to be on tracks.

The gunner gets out, picks it up and carries it, I guess? It looks quite heavy, that's why he can't go the full 6"!

[LansXero]

The dumbest thing about the turret, is that it has a move value of 3". What part of it looks even remotely movable? At least the Thunderfire had the decency to be on tracks.

Its supposed to have some grav-plate. Thats also why its BS2, so when it moves its only down to BS3, which is still pretty damn stupid. Since it can move it can advance so it could reposition 9" to fish people who wants to out LoS it, and it can also fall back in case it gets tagged, which it wouldn't have been able to do if it didnt have a move speed. If its an Ultramarines unit it can then shoot, while grav tanks cant anymore which is complete and total bull****.

All in all, I give these releases a full 5/7 of GW-Dumbness. Scoring max points in "OP Rules", "Stupid Design", "Invalidating Other Models" and "Marine Favouritism".

Terrible stuff to be sure.

[Cheesegear]

Wait, the ATV isn't a vehicle? But it's got 4 wheels, 2 crew and multiple guns: it's the definition of a light open-topped vehicle!

No. It's the definition of a Vehicle because in the phrase 'Invader ATV'...What does the 'V' stand for?*

but nonetheless I maintain that it's a bad decision by the designer.

Well...Yeah.
But in the question of 'Does it have 3 Wounds or 8 Wounds?', it's clearly the latter. Horrifically terribad as that is.

Its supposed to have some grav-plate. Thats also why its BS2, so when it moves its only down to BS3

No it doesn't.
Only Infantry take -1 to hit with Heavy weapons (that's why Suppressors still suck).
The Firestrike Turret - unlike the Invader ATV - is a Vehicle (or, more accurately, isn't Infantry), and so doesn't take -1 to hit when it moves.

*Abandon the Verisimilitude.

[Squark]

The Hammerfall Bunker straight up, to me, feels insulting. That's all I need to say.

Mechanically, or fluff-wise?

Personally, I feel it has a place on the fluff, but that role doesn't fit well in the tabletop game. When I look at the firestorm, I see the listening posts from the original dawn of war. Which make perfect sense as a part of the space marine's arsenal; The scouts find a spot that needs fortifying, place a beacon, and the strike cruiser/battle barge launches an automated turret to hold that point until the Guard or PDF catch up. But I'm not sure this is the sort of thing that the tabletop represents.

[Voidhawk]

According to it's keywords, it's a Bike rather than a Vehicle. Compared to the Attack Bike - 2 crew, 3 wheels, multiple guns - I guess kinda-sorta works? It's a bad design choice, but a valid one.

Another comparison: the Deffkilla Wartrike is a Vehicle rather than a Bike. It has T6 W8 Sv4+, only 1 pt of Toughness higher than the ATV.

Also, I don't think there's anything mechanically preventing it being a Bike Vehicle, if you're married to the idea of the Bike stratagems working on it.

[xroads]

I just ordered the AdMech Start Collecting kit. I plan on taking these cyborgs on a combat patrol against my friend's tau eventually.

The kit comes with an option to put together either a Skorpius Dunerider or the Skorpius Disintegrator. Which one should I put together?

On the one hand, the Dunerider can help move the Skitarii across the field faster. And it doesn't take up a slot in the patrol detachment.

On the other, the Disintegrator is a tank. Who does't love tanks? And as an added bonus, since it can't ferry passengers, I don't have to worry about it exploding and taking a Skitarii squad out with it.

[peacenlove]

I just ordered the AdMech Start Collecting kit. I plan on taking these cyborgs on a combat patrol against my friend's tau eventually.

The kit comes with an option to put together either a Skorpius Dunerider or the Skorpius Disintegrator. Which one should I put together?

On the one hand, the Dunerider can help move the Skitarii across the field faster. And it doesn't take up a slot in the patrol detachment.

On the other, the Disintegrator is a tank. Who does't love tanks? And as an added bonus, since it can't ferry passengers, I don't have to worry about it exploding and taking a Skitarii squad out with it.

I built mine as both. If you forgo putting the piece that stops the ramp from opening you can switch through without magnets.
But if I must absolutely choose, then Disintegrator with belicossa missiles (the LoS ignoring ones). Cause you can play admech without transports but they dont have any other LoS ignoring weapon

[Cheesegear]

Mechanically, or fluff-wise?

Yes.

Personally, I feel it has a place on the fluff...

For Astartes? Strongly disagree.

but that role doesn't fit well in the tabletop game.

It fits really well, if you're talking about Imperial Guard, putting up Bunkers and Imperial Bastions everywhere. That makes sense. That's what they do.

---

When you're talking about a rapid insertion strike force, whose job is to cut like a scalpel and then GTFO? No. Dropping firebases is not what that Faction does.

"But Cheesegear, don't you play Imperial Fists, aren't they known for building castles?"
Yes...No...Sort of.

But even then, if you want to paint a Hammerfall Bunker bright yellow, sure. I can sort of see why you'd do that...Sort of. Imperial Fists are a Chapter of space pirates, whose Primarch was known for being a defensive guy.
(Hence the Narrative; Sigismund says 'We're Space Pirates, we should be attacking! WTF is wrong with you!?' And Dorn saying 'No.' ...That's the drama!)

If you paint a Hammerfall any other colour, it's really hard to justify its existence.

We can see this massive disconnect with White Scars; A Chapter known for being adrenaline junkies and gotta go fast.
Key units in a White Scars army?
...That's right! Thunderfire Cannons, Eliminators and Assault Centurions.
(Outriders and Invaders should fix this issue)

Which basically says that fluff doesn't matter; Rules sell models.

When I look at the firestorm

Do you mean Hammerfall?
If so, it actually looks like a StarCraft Terran Planetary Fortress - I actually refuse to believe it's a coincidence.

The scouts find a spot that needs fortifying, place a beacon, and the strike cruiser/battle barge launches an automated turret to hold that point until the Guard or PDF catch up.

Yeah...And those things are called Tarantula Sentry Guns, and they're trash.

The Hammerfall Bunker is very, very, very good, and will probably be an auto-include in most lists unless it gets nerfed (unlikely in the short term, because you don't sell models by nerfing it before it even comes out, right?).
The Firestrike Turret replaces Devastators, most Dreadnoughts, completely invalidates Suppressors, and arguably makes all the Firstborn Tanks look like garbage.

[The Patterner]

Another comparison: the Deffkilla Wartrike is a Vehicle rather than a Bike. It has T6 W8 Sv4+, only 1 pt of Toughness higher than the ATV.

Also, I don't think there's anything mechanically preventing it being a Bike Vehicle, if you're married to the idea of the Bike stratagems working on it.

Even better, Genestealer cult has:

Atalan wolfquad, it has T4 W4 Sv5+ and counts as a four wheeled bike.

Ridgerunners has T5 W8 Sv 4+. It's crewed by two people and has two or three guns depending on how you define twin-linked.
Ridgerunners are definitly veichles.

[LeSwordfish]

When you're talking about a rapid insertion strike force, whose job is to cut like a scalpel and then GTFO? No. Dropping firebases is not what that Faction does.

Seems fine to me: it's only a small change to a Deathstorm Drop Pod.

[Wraith]

Seems fine to me: it's only a small change to a Deathstorm Drop Pod.

I was going to say the same thing. If you're going to Drop Pod a bunch of your immensely expensive super-soldiers into a war-zone, why not drop an expendable brick with a whirlwind turret on top of it in order to clear some space and establish a foot-hold first?

That's all a 40k battle is, after all - Space Marines go in, clear house, and leave 6 turns later. Fast-deploying beachheads going with them and then being abandoned/recovered by Chapter serfs later seems perfectly sensible.

Then again, everything I've seen about 9th edition so far makes me want to collect a Dark Angels gunline army, so I may well be biased in favour of static firepower like this.

[Cheesegear]

Seems fine to me: it's only a small change to a Deathstorm Drop Pod.

...And I hate them, too.

Then again, everything I've seen about 9th edition so far makes me want to collect a Dark Angels gunline army, so I may well be biased in favour of static firepower like this.

Really? Flooding boards with LoS blockers and forcing your opponent into -1 to hit with shooting attacks, makes you think static gunline castles are the way to go? You must be reading different rules to me.

Furthermore:
Invader ATVs are looking like one of the strongest units in the Codex.
Land Speeders are fairly buffed.
Time to play Dark Angels, Hell yeah!
...As a static gunline.

Wait. What?

[Wraith]

I know, right? I don't even pretend that it makes sense; I just want to paint up a bunch of Fallen so that I can use the DA iconography, and use the DA rules to spam plasma guns at people. New edition, new army, and all that.

...On reflection, I suppose that makes for the perfect tagline: "Hammerfalls make perfect sense, if you want to build a Dark Angel gunline in 9th edition."

[LansXero]

...And I hate them, too.



Really? Flooding boards with LoS blockers and forcing your opponent into -1 to hit with shooting attacks, makes you think static gunline castles are the way to go? You must be reading different rules to me.

Furthermore:
Invader ATVs are looking like one of the strongest units in the Codex.
Land Speeders are fairly buffed.
Time to play Dark Angels, Hell yeah!
...As a static gunline.

Wait. What?

NOOO YOU CANT BE STATIC IN 9th

hehe 4++ / +1 to hit when not move go pew pew

[Cheesegear]

"Hammerfalls make perfect sense, if you want to build a Imperial Fists or Iron Hands gunline in 9th edition."

Fixed that for you.
Dark Angels wont run gunlines in 9th.

What I do want to see, is that Hammerfall, and, in front, are some Aggressors/Eradicators painted up like Terran Firebats.

NOOO YOU CANT BE STATIC IN 9th

Depends on your board.
Since we know that only two types of terrain matter, and both of them shaft static shooty armies...What can you do?

hehe 4++ / +1 to hit when not move go pew pew

Why bother?
Spam Ravenwing units, get a Talonmaster, and totally ignore the aforementioned two terrain types with S5, AP-1 guns (AP-2 on Turn 1), that don't take penalties when they move.


Unfortunately, as always, nothing matters 'til we see Secondary Objectives in a Codex.

[xroads]

I built mine as both. If you forgo putting the piece that stops the ramp from opening you can switch through without magnets.
But if I must absolutely choose, then Disintegrator with belicossa missiles (the LoS ignoring ones). Cause you can play admech without transports but they dont have any other LoS ignoring weapon

Thanks for the tips. I was wondering if I could do something like that. But I have very little experience with vehicle models, so I wasn't sure if it was feasible.

[Wraith]

Fixed that for you.

I was being sarcastic and slightly self-depreciating.

What I do want to see, is that Hammerfall, and, in front, are some Aggressors/Eradicators painted up like Terran Firebats.

Red with some blue details - sounds like something for your Blood Ravens parade?

Spam Ravenwing units, get a Talonmaster, and totally ignore the aforementioned two terrain types with S5, AP-1 guns (AP-2 on Turn 1), that don't take penalties when they move.

I already have Grey Knights so I don't need another Terminator-based army, and I just don't like the bikes/ATVs/whatever. I understand what I'm getting myself into, I know I can "do it better", but like LansXero pointed out it has it's worthwhile moments and I think I can make it work.

[IthilanorStPete]

I already have Grey Knights so I don't need another Terminator-based army, and I just don't like the bikes/ATVs/whatever. I understand what I'm getting myself into, I know I can "do it better", but like LansXero pointed out it has it's worthwhile moments and I think I can make it work.

Deathwing are the DA Terminators; Ravenwing are bikers/speeders.

[Wraith]

Deathwing are the DA Terminators; Ravenwing are bikers/speeders.

...Yes? I already have a Terminator-based army (Grey Knights and, to a lesser extent, Carcharodons) and I don't want more, and I don't like the bikes/speeders?

By "it" I meant, Dark Angels' new chapter ability is to get bonuses when they stand and shoot, and some other stuff about Plasma Weapons. An excuse to buy Primaris Marines, essentially.

[Cheesegear]

I just want to paint up a bunch of Fallen so that I can use the DA iconography....

I understand what I'm getting myself into, I know I can "do it better", but like LansXero pointed out it has it's worthwhile moments and I think I can make it work.

I guess my issue is that in 9e, when it comes to gunlines, one that stands still, isn't going to work, on any board that has a remotely competitive setup.

The second issue is that you don't want to play Fallen, you just want to use the models. In which case, a Space Marine is a Space Marine. Paint them however you want. You can still call them Loyalist Renegades, and you can still say that they use their old Chapter Tactics.
If you have opponents that say 'Swords and Wings mean Dark Angels', immediately ask them why Hawk Lords* are an Ultramarine Successor, and not a Raven Guard one.

It's no secret; I think the idea of Deathwatch is really cool. The best of the best out of all the Space Marine Chapters form Space Marine SWAT Teams. But, each individual Marine, is still an individual from their parent Chapter and gets to 'bring stuff from home'. Means conversion potential is pretty much endless. But, I hate the Deathwatch rules, since their Codex/8 is way too shallow. Guess what? My 'Deathwatch' army uses Ultramarine rules and has won best painted at a tournament (because of the aforementioned ability to individualise every model), because when it comes to Space Marines, your paint job really doesn't define your rules.

This is going to be especially true when all Chapters - including Deathwatch, apparently - get rolled into Space Marines/9.

*Speaking of, back in 6th Ed., I was going to paint up my Dark Angels Ravenwing as Hawk Lords. Still have a couple, too.

[Cheesegear]

Got a few games happening. Pretty disappointed with the results of my Troops.
The points hike on Marine Troops has made them pretty bad.
I suspect the way moving forwards with Marines will be double Vanguard or double Spearhead.

Pretty sure LansXero said the same thing about Craftworlds.

[LeSwordfish]

Have folks seen the images of new marine rules that are coming out? "Veteran" marines are getting +1 wound, which means 2-wound Vanguard and 3-wound Terminators.

[Renegade Paladin]

Do we have confirmation that it's just Veterans? Have there been Tactical/Assault/Devastator leaks?

[LeSwordfish]

Do we have confirmation that it's just Veterans? Have there been Tactical/Assault/Devastator leaks?

Not that I've seen. Just seems more likely, given thet Bladeguard are 3 wounds.

[LansXero]

Also no -1 to hit on power fists and Damage 4 Thunder Hammers.

Whatever the current '9th edition meta' is, its meaningless. You cant look at that level of statling alterations and assume things will remain as-is post Codex, which then means buying anything right now is a fool's errand, unless its motivated by aesthetic concerns.

Even if the new codices come and DONT bring whatever faction you play to parity, its still the same veredict, since buying stuff for something that'll be dead for 2 years is just burning money, again, unless you do it for the hobby aspect (and if so, may I interest you in a number of highly detailed model lines that cost 1/2 or 1/3 of GW models?)

[Mystic Muse]

unless you do it for the hobby aspect (and if so, may I interest you in a number of highly detailed model lines that cost 1/2 or 1/3 of GW models?)

Assuming they look fairly similar to GW stuff (Either 40k or Fantasy) and are made out of plastic, absolutely. If they're made out of resin or pewter, that's a dealbreaker.

[Cheesegear]

which then means buying anything right now is a fool's errand

Why would I buy anything?
I've been playing Marines since 2nd, and they became my army-of-choice in 5th (from Dark Eldar).
There is nothing I need to buy.

Maybe, just maybe, I would consider buying 9 Invader ATVs, but that would involve changing my entire army.

If you're asking me to invest in Terminators...I don't know what to tell you:
- I have 15 Hammernators
- 10 Claw-nators.
- 20 regular Terminators
...and two sets of Space Hulk.

This is what upsets my local Blackshirt.

Between 5th-7th, I was a whale. I remember once failing to pay rent because I'd spent all my money on toy soldiers. In 8th Ed. I barely spent any money because Primaris Marines were terrible, and when I did want Primaris Marines, well, Know No Fear was so god-damned good...But that was an economical option, which means GW got less money from me, technically. The Vanguard SC! box was a great deal (emphasis on was, it isn't, currently), and I bought them, too. But, once again, SC! boxes aren't the real thing.

...I think the only full price things I bought in all of 8th was...Vicky Warsuits? ...And they didn't come out until the second Codex.

At a certain point, I no longer need to buy models - and that goes for all whales.

If (and I have no reason to believe that this isn't true, all of the following is derived from the same image):
- Terminators have 3 Wounds
- Cyclone (Frags) going to 2d6, instead of 2d3 shots - and having Blast
- Heavy Flamers are 12" range
- Power Fists are flat 2-damage
- Power Swords are +1S

Assuming no massive increase in points cost, that only benefits only me, not GW.

If the Terminator buffs are true...
I've just said that I hate Space Marine Troops in 9th Ed. The only Troops I like are Scouts, and only because of Concealed Positions, but because I can't score the Primary Objectives on Turn 1, Concealed Positions' strategic value is significantly hamstrung, because the Scouts just die immediately, and at 14 Points each, that's too much. So even the 'best' Troops unit - Scouts - are bad. What should I do? That's right. More Heavy Support units to rack Kill Points early, and maybe save the Primary Objective until Turns 3+...In which case Concealed Positions no longer has use.

If GW wants me to spam Terminators, I can do that (see above).

This is why it's in GW's interests to constantly devalue what you currently have. A whale who stops buying - 'cause they've already bought everything - is no longer a whale. If you want to know why Space Marines 'get everything', that's why. Whales play Space Marines, and you want whales, to stay whales, because that's how you make money.

GW gains absolutely nothing from me, if they buff Terminators, and I gain everything.

Even if the new codices come and DONT bring whatever faction you play to parity...

That's been true forever.
If your Codex sucks, your best option is to first, complain (preferably to GW, but if you can convince other people of your point, that's good too; The more voices, the better). Then quit, or, at least stop buying models until things are good again.

Only switch Factions if you absolutely want to.
And if you must switch Factions, don't switch to an Astartes Faction... I'm joking, but also I'm not.

[Wraith]

I kind of suspect that is the reason as to why all of the Space Marines factions have now been rolled into a single codex, with the exception of Grey Knights.

No doubt about it, you have a nice big pile of yellow Terminators of all flavours; but now, your new book lets you play with WHITE Terminators, or RED ones, or even PALE GREY ones. Better rush out and buy some duplicates!

....You and I both know that isn't going to happen to us, because we know that we can use PALE GREY rules with YELLOW models. But I think it's just as safe to say that somewhere a 'true' whale will do exactly that, because they no longer have the excuse of "well I don't have the rules for these models so I'm not going to buy them".

[Cheesegear]

But I think it's just as safe to say that somewhere a 'true' whale will do exactly that...

Next thread title is obviously 'No True Whale'.
How dare someone use blue rules with yellow models.