Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

[LansXero]

My guess is because first-turn alpha strikes, whilst not removed from the game, have been decently hamstrung for most Factions.
So it goes from 'First turn is basically auto-win.' to 'Wellll, it depends on the Faction you play and who you're playing against. Terrain is also a massive factor. Hope your board isn't ****.'

Hamstrung until codices amp up the lethality, that is. Besides, first turn matters less because the real kicker is that you get 2 whole turns before player 2 scores and his 5th turn doesnt matter at all because there wont be another scoring phase, which lopsides things in a way 8th did not.

Player skill in 40k revolves around giving the enemy bad and worse choices. So you jump on primaries and take position with your guns. Do you move to cap so you eat firepower next turn before you score? do you move to shift me so missing out on scoring? do you keep your backfield so you dont give up secondaries? all of this pressure comes from P1 first turn and P2 has very limited ability to respond in a way that doesnt get trounced by P1 in his second turn before P2 scores even once. Also, P1 can bring anything from reserves before P2 can score, which makes this even more of a losing proposition. Finally, smaller table sizes means there is a very real cap on terrain density before it becomes an unplayable mess, AND, an excess of LoS blockers and obstacles means infiltrate lists like RG get to sit unmolested on 3/4 of the table racking up secondaries while you pat yourself on the back for your 'nice' terrain.

Finally, a thing many people dont realize is that they have the objective names backwards.

Painting gives you 10 points. This is gatekeeping bull**** but its your baseline.
Primaries give you 45 points. However, getting the full 45 means you destroyed your opponent so bad he should just sell his army and go play hopscotch or whatever.
Secondaries ALSO give you 45 points, AND you get to know them ahead of time, rely less on what your opponent DOES (maybe on what he brings) AND will become tailored to your faction when your codex releases, This is where your energy should be focused on, as both you and your opponent can and should try to max them every game. Because categories aren't tallied separately, winning secondaries and tying up primaries or losing primaries by less than your secondaries advantage = win.

This leads into the casual view of 'now we move midfield! epic clash on top of objectives! yay!' is narrativistic bull****. T1 T2 rack up secondaries by removing as much of the enemy as you can to deny / slow them getting secondaries, their now handicapped leftovers will try to score primaries because 'its an objectives game! you just removed 40% of my list but it doesnt matter Imma win on objectives! (while ignoring the 10 - 12 VPs you got from said removal) and you can just keep up from falling behind. You cant physically move enemy models from objectives unless you erradicate the whole unit, but you CAN deny their secondaries (or at least its easier) so why focus on the table when its all VPs anyways?

[Cheesegear]

This leads into the casual view of 'now we move midfield! epic clash on top of objectives! yay!' is narrativistic bull****. T1 T2 rack up secondaries by removing as much of the enemy as you can to deny / slow them getting secondaries, their now handicapped leftovers will try to score primaries because 'its an objectives game! you just removed 40% of my list but it doesnt matter Imma win on objectives! (while ignoring the 10 - 12 VPs you got from said removal) and you can just keep up from falling behind. You cant physically move enemy models from objectives unless you erradicate the whole unit, but you CAN deny their secondaries (or at least its easier) so why focus on the table when its all VPs anyways?

As I've said, there's a new meta-game to be found in list-building, where the goal is to focus your energy around high-wound models that are not Characters or Vehicles. This is one of the reasons Custodes are doing so well, because the way their army is built, is effectively purpose-built to deny your opponent as many Secondary VPs as possible. Even if you lose with Custodes, you can't give up Major Wins because you have no VPs to give away. This is what a lot of people aren't getting, are are being rudely surprised when they lose. Because the old Thousand Sons list of spamming 3 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, and three Shamans, straight up hands your opponents free VPs, as they get VPs for doing what they were planning on doing, anyway.

A Warlock Conclave of exactly five Warlocks, is better than a Farseer, and it's better than more Warlocks.
"No Cheesegear, you don't understand how the Craftworlds Codex works."

Not really. But I do know how the rules of the game work:
If you have a solo-Farseer...It's dead, because targeting Characters - especially Space Marines - is a way to win games, so people build their lists to target Characters. Your opponent thanks you for the VPs.
If you have more Warlocks in the Conclave for extra Powers, you lose out due to Blast and unit coherency rules. Your Conclave of 9 Warlocks is somehow less effective than two units of five and four for the same cost (or two units of 'max' 5), and it's not worth any VPs, on almost any Secondary.

"But Cheesegear, Vypers are ****."
Go back to 8th Ed. 9th Ed. is about spamming models with less than 10 Wounds. Yeah, a Vyper is a Vehicle, and that's bad...Kind of. But it's still a model with less than 10 Wounds. Even then, Ravenwing Talonmasters are the business. And why are you playing Craftworlds when you could be playing Dark Angels?

The worst models in the game - as far as the list-building meta-game goes - are Vehicles and Monsters with more than 10 Wounds - they're worth 4VPs each. And that could be the reason that Iron Hands are falling in the meta, whilst Salamanders - who rely on multi-wound Terminators - are doing much better in 9th Ed. In fact, Salamanders are the best Marines now, when in 8th Ed. they were considered the worst.

[LansXero]

As I've said, there's a new meta-game to be found in list-building, where the goal is to focus your energy around high-wound models that are not Characters or Vehicles. This is one of the reasons Custodes are doing so well, because the way their army is built, is effectively purpose-built to deny your opponent as many Secondary VPs as possible.

Path of Heroes into deploy beacon and such. Custodes plant themselves on midfield, whatever, who cares. Custodes turn: Now I get to...! NOT SO FAST. TRAP CARDO! Path of heroes back to my deployment zone. Enjoying your low model count now? By the way I agree with you, just wanted to get the edge case in :v.

A Warlock Conclave of exactly five Warlocks, is better than a Farseer, and it's better than more Warlocks.
"No Cheesegear, you don't understand how the Craftworlds Codex works."

But you dont. Council locks are stupid fragile now and cant hit for **** (with melee cover being a thing AP0 is horrible). They also dont get LoS but ARE psykers, so they'll give up VPs even easier (because they have barely any wounds).

A single bikeseer has as many wounds as 2 bike warlocks, plus can only be targetted by sniper fire, plus has better saves, plus can be hidden easier. Also, Forewarned so you dont get shot to pieces by reserves only works with a Farseer, same as +1 to cast or +1 psychic power strats.

And why are you playing Craftworlds

I lowkey regret selling my sisters these days. I really hope the new codex doesnt make Eldar the Vyper + Falcons faction.

[Cheesegear]

They also dont get LoS but ARE psykers, so they'll give up VPs even easier

How? Everyone is running Psykers. Psykers are too good not to have.

A single bikeseer has as many wounds as 2 bike warlocks, plus can only be targetted by sniper fire

When ~80% of the meta is now Marines with Eliminators that can see through walls, your Farseers aren't worth ****.
In my meta, I would take two Bike'Locks over one Bike'Seer every game. Every game. Hands down.

If I have the option for a unit, or a Character, as my HQ...I would take the unit every single time. But maybe that's just me in my Marine meta. Maybe some competitive metas haven't got the memo that Marines are the best in the game - still - and are still screwing around with Daemons and T'au, and don't have Snipers that can see through walls and don't have a Culexus Assassin now that they don't break Combat Doctrines.

plus can be hidden easier.

Nothing can be hidden if your opponent knows how Eliminators work.
Eliminators have broken the meta since day 1, and haven't stopped.

I really hope the new codex doesnt make Eldar the Vyper + Falcons faction.

It's not.
It's the Warlock Conclaves and Support Weapons Faction.

[LansXero]

[QUOTE=Cheesegear;24675776]How? Everyone is running Psykers. Psykers are too good not to have.[QUOTE]

Sadly yes, and also HQ slots come at a premium. And yet, considering the huge point hike, councils are still iffy imho.

When ~80% of the meta is now Marines with Eliminators that can see through walls, your Farseers aren't worth ****.
In my meta, I would take two Bike'Locks over one Bike'Seer every game. Every game. Hands down.

Eliminators can see through walls OR they can shoot decently. They cant do both. Farseers save on 2+ if the Eliminators ignore LoS, and they even get a 5+++ vs mortal wounds. Meanwhile, bike warlocks are eating everything else because they can be targetted normally by all those bolters on the other side.

and don't have Snipers that can see through walls and don't have a Culexus Assassin now that they don't break Combat Doctrines.

I've dealt with eliminators before. Culexii are also not that scary. Callidus though just shut you down hard, because Reign of Confusion is the worst thing you can do to a Craftworlds player. Vindicares also eat characters like they're nothing and are way scarier than Eliminators.

Nothing can be hidden if your opponent knows how Eliminators work.
Eliminators have broken the meta since day 1, and haven't stopped.

You still hide to force them to use the 'ignore LoS option' instead of the 'kill you dead' option. Farseers are 3+ so 2+ in cover unless its vs Fists; Eldrad is 3++ anyways so have fun bouncing.

It's not.
It's the Warlock Conclaves and Support Weapons Faction.

While Conclaves might be decent at preventing some secondaries, they do crap all to help you achieve yours. Psychic support works when there is stuff worth supporting (spears, crimson hunters, reapers, etc.) and with support weapon low mobility I doubt it'll be enough. I know it looks that way currently with junk like war walkers making a show, but depending on weapon profile, point and secondaries changes in the codex, it can be whatever tbqh.

[Forum Explorer]

When ~80% of the meta is now Marines with Eliminators that can see through walls, your Farseers aren't worth ****.
In my meta, I would take two Bike'Locks over one Bike'Seer every game. Every game. Hands down.

If I have the option for a unit, or a Character, as my HQ...I would take the unit every single time. But maybe that's just me in my Marine meta. Maybe some competitive metas haven't got the memo that Marines are the best in the game - still - and are still screwing around with Daemons and T'au, and don't have Snipers that can see through walls and don't have a Culexus Assassin now that they don't break Combat Doctrines.



Nothing can be hidden if your opponent knows how Eliminators work.
Eliminators have broken the meta since day 1, and haven't stopped.

They actually nerfed Eliminators. From what I heard they are now (or will be) able to shoot through walls, and able to shoot at characters, but not both at the same time.

[Destro_Yersul]

It's not so much that. It's that their main hitting power comes from spamming Characters/Monsters (Smite-spam), something which you shouldn't be doing anymore, unless you're trying to signpost to your opponent 'Take Assassinate against me, and I'll give you a free win.'

It's that their staying power, comes from spamming Tzaangors, and I shouldn't have to tell you, that running units of 6+ models now, is quite bad.

The alternative, is Rubric Marines:
- They have Smite
- They're 5-man units
The boost to two wounds is likely to make them...Still not as good as Death Guard. And unfortunately, that's where Thousand Sons are currently at;

"Why aren't you playing Death Guard, instead?"

Death Guard aren't nearly as cool. Don't like Nurgle, don't like the aesthetic, don't want to paint them. Why would I ever play Death Guard instead?

[Cheesegear]

Why would I ever play Death Guard instead?

Because you've spent hundreds - if not thousands - of [currency] on toy soldiers that consistently lose games, whilst your friend, is playing the exact same playstyle of army as you, and is winning games.

If you 'enjoy' losing never winning, ever; You're a better person than I am.

[Destro_Yersul]

Because you've spent hundreds - if not thousands - of [currency] on toy soldiers that consistently lose games, whilst your friend, is playing the exact same playstyle of army as you, and is winning games.

If you 'enjoy' losing never winning, ever; You're a better person than I am.

I mean, I enjoy spending hundreds/thousands of [currency] on these things just to paint them. Getting to actually play games would be a bonus, and more than likely also just an excuse to hang out with some friends and eat some pizza.

We've had this discussion before, I think. Even when I played games regularly, I don't remember ever actually winning.

[LeSwordfish]

Also correct me if I'm wrong but Destro has already spent that, and what you're suggesting is that he spends it again.

[Cheesegear]

Also correct me if I'm wrong but Destro has already spent that, and what you're suggesting is that he spends it again.

I fully admit to evolving conversation, where the end isn't where we started.
But the premise was 'What should I get if I was to start Thousand Sons?' and the answer was effectively 'Don't. Start something else instead, or at least wait 'til the Codex comes - and then maybe still don't buy anything?'

If you already have a Rubric horde from 7th or a Tzaangor horde from 8th...As you said, there's no problem. Keep playing with what you've got.

There's a difference between 'Should I start-', and 'Should I continue playing'.

I've been using my Imperial Fists all year, and still am.
Would I suggest that anyone start a new Space Marine army at this time? **** no. Wait until like...Christmas...Before you buy anything for Space Marines - and Necrons. Really, really, really think about buying anything...And if part of your decision process of buying new models is how well they play on the table...Yeah, probably not.

Just to be clear, in case GW marketing is watching; This is NOT because of COVID. This is because of GW's dumb drip-feeding of rules and the fact that the Codex wont be 'correct' on Day 1, and it will be somewhere between two weeks and two months before the problems in a new Codex is ironed out...And that's not even including broken combos that LVO (if it runs) will deliver in January which will require a second 'going over' at the end of February.

If you want to 'buy what you want', do that. If you want to play what you want. NOBODY can tell you what to buy. You do you.

If you want to start a conversation with 'What are must-have, good units in a Faction?', nobody knows, because what's currently good (especially for Astartes armies) is likely to radically change in the near future when half the Factions in the game have certain Heavy weapons updated to Damage 2 to deal with new status quos where all Astartes armies - including Death Guard, who are T5 with 5+ Shrug - gain an extra wound.

So the new status quo will be who gets the Damage 2 weapons, and for how much? How much is the extra wound going to cost Astartes models (~20%, we know)? Or, will the two simply cancel each other out, making the early prediction '1 Damage weapons are trash; Heavy weapons only meta', true. And if that's true, there's a whole lot that becomes a garbage fire overnight (particularly Craftworlds' Shuriken weapons).

[Mystic Muse]

Turns out the way to get me painting again is to give me a mini with a bunch of dead guys on its base, and tell me to paint the dead guys as one of my least favorite factions.

Finally getting around to painting the Fulgrim I got for my friend like 2 years ago.

[Cheesegear]

So, here's what I've got, vis-a-vis Craftworlds:

Troops are mostly terrible, with the exception of Dire Avengers. Which ultimately means making an Asurmen castle if you're going to make a Battalion (and you are, 'cause you wanna save CPs, or something). Asurmen is also your tankiest option for Warlord, which means it's a bit trickier for your Space Marine opponent to rack a Warlord kill in the first two turns and rack a ****-ton of points because why aren't you playing the GT Missions, and why aren't your Space Marine opponents taking Slay the Warlord for 13/10 'free' VPs every game?

In your Elites slot, you mostly want to be focusing down heavy infantry and some of the lighter Vehicles. Hands down you're looking Fire Dragons or Wraithguard. Wraithguard are lot less terrible in 9th Ed. because of course you know about Secondaries, and if your opponent is dumb enough to run heavy Vehicles, killing them is arguably the easiest way to win games. Besides, Wraithguard can hold Objectives pretty well 'cause they're probably not gonna be dead by late-game, too.

In Fast Attack, if you don't want to run Troops at all (and there are significant reasons not to), Windriders will make up the significant bulk of your army. They're fast. They're cheap. They output a lot of shots in comparison to their model count. Windriders are an extremely strong unit, and could you imagine how broken Craftworlds would be if they were Troops?
Then, you're probably going to want to look into Swooping Hawks.
Vypers are a decently strong unit. But run into the problem of the fact that a) They're Vehicles, and thus worth VPs, and b) Windriders already exist for all your Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser needs. If you want to run AMLs and Bright Lances...Well, Heavy Support choices can do that, and weren't you supposed to have Wraithguard already?

Speaking of Heavy Support, someone got real drunk when they decided that D-Cannons should be able to see through walls, and then give them that weapon profile. Shadow Weavers do the same thing. What a ****ing joke. If you are going to run the playstyle where you simply spam 'Light' Vehicles and hopefully give your opponent only a single Secondary, then you spam the **** out of Support Weapons. If you don't like the idea of a static gunline (even though the good Support Weapons see through walls), you can always run War Walkers, instead, and spam the **** out of Starcannons.

If you aren't going to run 9 Support Weapons, then I suppose you can run Dark Reapers, instead. They're one of the few units in the Codex that don't need an HQ babysitting them and giving them buffs to make them effective (aside from all the ones already mentioned). Remember, your opponents are building their lists with killing your Characters in mind, so you can go with one of the following options:
a) Your Characters are characteristically tanky - the Custodes method - or,
b) You take units that don't need Characters to function - the 'everyone else' method.

Better yet, Craftworlds are one of the few Codecies in the game (are there even any others) where you don't even need a Character in your HQ slots! Rad. Warlock Conclaves for life! Unfortunately, Conclaves aren't that good (at least, not even as good as Windriders, and thus, not as good to spam in every HQ slot), but, you still need a Character to be your Warlord, so that you get the Warlord Trait - just make it a tough one so you don't give your opponent a free Warlord kill in the opening two turns that's worth 13/10 VPs, and start the game on a back foot where you give your opponent 13 VPs and no longer have your Warlord anymore.

Take all of the above with a grain of salt and don't buy anything based on this post:
a) Space Marines are going to 2 and 3 Wounds - base - on most of their non-Vehicle models soon, and anything that doesn't deal 2 or at least D3 Damage (e.g; Dire Avengers) is going to become a lot worse in the near future.
b) Certain 1-Damage Heavy Weapons (e.g; Scatter Laser?) could very well be moving to 2 Damage, and certain D3-Damage weapons (e.g Ghostaxes?) could do the same thing, and we have to wait and see how points costs shake out and whether it's worth it or not.

[LansXero]

What you need to know about Craftworlds:

- 'Tankiest Eldar' is as meaningful as 'biggest pigmy'. Dont waste support on tax.
- Shuriken weapons are horrible when the meta is full of 2+/3+. Once if becomes 2 wounds and we see more T5, they go from horrible to joke.
- Good luck trying to crack the above without Jinx or Doom. Good luck trying to find a non-character psyker that can cast Doom.
- Stop trying to make Fire Dragons / Swooping Hawks happen, they're not going to happen.
- Stop trying to compete for Primaries like it means anything. Read how the mission scores, most of the time holding 2 objectives + keeping 2 from the opponent = enough to decide the match on Secondaries.
- Toughness 3 is victim toughness. Unless you can get a truckload of cheap bodies or armywide 4++ (i.e. Guard, Sisters and Harlequins) you cant trade properly because even throwaway auxiliary fire takes models away from units.
- Toughness 5 or 6 on vehicles means they get reamed by sidearm fire. Autocannons wounding on 3s makes calling something 'tanky' a sad joke.

[Cheesegear]

'Tankiest Eldar' is as meaningful as 'biggest pigmy'. Dont waste support on tax.

Without tanky HQs to prevent 13/10 Warlord kills, Craftworlds are the sad face. As I said, I find it particularly difficult on two fronts, to come back from a Turn 1/2 Warlord kill.

Shuriken weapons are horrible when the meta is full of 2+/3+. Once if becomes 2 wounds and we see more T5, they go from horrible to joke.

Acknowledged. As I alluded to, once that happens, it's Starcannons or nothing - IMO.

Good luck trying to crack the above without Jinx or Doom. Good luck trying to find a non-character psyker that can cast Doom.

There are lots of Factions that perform perfectly fine without re-rolling to wound at all times. The aim is to find S5-7, AP-2 weapons, with 3+ shots. Craftworlds has those. Those weapons, unfortunately, are only found on units that Craftworld players haven't used - and thus are unlikely to have currently - since 5th Ed.

Have you tried spamming the **** out of War Walkers and Support Weapons?
"WHAT!? Those things are garbage fire trash-tier terribleness and have been for years. Mine are caked in several layers of dust I haven't used them in so long."
Well they're not now. Welcome to the future?

Stop trying to make Fire Dragons / Swooping Hawks happen, they're not going to happen.

Swooping Hawks - currently - are great. They just don't/wont work in a meta that's all Marines, all the time - especially when those Marines hit 2 or 3 Wounds each.

Stop trying to compete for Primaries like it means anything. Read how the mission scores, most of the time holding 2 objectives + keeping 2 from the opponent = enough to decide the match on Secondaries.

The issue isn't so much that Primaries mean something. But if your tables are currently scourged with -1 to hit and LoS blocking terrain, you have to be able to move. To be able to stand outside Cover is a new kind of strength, all to itself. Ideally, if you're not going to be standing in cover because you're trying to stand in a fire lane to get better shots at certain units, you would hope that you're also standing on Objectives to get 'free' Points.

See, if you're playing a competitive game, all VPs count. It doesn't make sense to not go for as many as you can.

Toughness 3 is victim toughness.

Hence why Windriders are the best unit in the Codex. The only 'problem' with them, is that they aren't Troops.
However, as I've said in a previous post...Sometimes, fixing a problem (i.e; Just Make Them Troops *shrug*), would be causing a situation where enacting the 'solution' is actually worse than doing nothing at all. Windriders are a perfect unit - at least until Marines start packing 2/3 Wounds each.

Toughness 5 or 6 on vehicles means they get reamed by sidearm fire. Autocannons wounding on 3s makes calling something 'tanky' a sad joke.

Most people don't seem to be too bothered about Vehicles having T6, because if you're running T6 Vehicles...You're running 9 of them. Once you hit 7.5 Vehicles, just keep going, because your opponent is already at max VPs, they don't get more. If you've already decided to run Support Weapons or War Walkers, run ALL the Support Weapons/War Walkers.

This is one of the reasons why spam is actually more likely in 9th Ed., not less. Because you get those 'sweet spot' models, coming in at around 50-80 Points each. Your opponent only gets a maximum of 15 Points off of that 'type' of unit (e.g; 'Light Vehicle'). So either you take <3, to keep your opponent under the 6 VP threshold for a single Secondary. Or you spam the **** out of them so that you actually have MORE of the type of unit than your opponent can actually score off of. If you've already decided to 'sacrifice' a Secondary, go all the way, because if you have 'something else' in your army - instead of more of the same thing - you actually open up your opponent to choose - and score of off - another Secondary.

For example, you can/should run 3 Characters, which is the minimum required to field a Battalion and another Detachment (or one Brigade). You can/should run 8+ Characters and just throw your opponent the 'free' Secondary and hopefully spamming that many characters pulls you out your max Secondary (Linebreaker?). But you shouldn't (not saying you can't, just that you're a way better player than me, if you do) run this weird middle ground of like...5 Characters.

[LansXero]

Without tanky HQs to prevent 13/10 Warlord kills, Craftworlds are the sad face. As I said, I find it particularly difficult on two fronts, to come back from a Turn 1/2 Warlord kill.

Eldrad has a 3++ and the regular Ulthwe 6+++. Dont waste support on tax.

There are lots of Factions that perform perfectly fine without re-rolling to wound at all times. The aim is to find S5-7, AP-2 weapons, with 3+ shots. Craftworlds has those. Those weapons, unfortunately, are only found on units that Craftworld players haven't used - and thus are unlikely to have currently - since 5th Ed.

They also come with fragile ass chassis, and are currently overcosted in an already low model count army.

Have you tried spamming the **** out of War Walkers and Support Weapons?
"WHAT!? Those things are garbage fire trash-tier terribleness and have been for years. Mine are caked in several layers of dust I haven't used them in so long."
Well they're not now. Welcome to the future?

Support weapons sure, at least currently. War walkers dunno, its just how they ended up being cost effective but the codex makes it a crapshoot. But both are still playing into the static primaries playstyle that I think Marines and other factions will dominate come their codex, so it'll get dunked as the meta progresses.

Swooping Hawks - currently - are great. They just don't/wont work in a meta that's all Marines, all the time - especially when those Marines hit 2 or 3 Wounds each.

they are great at being trash. If you want a sneaky deepstriker that cant kill anything and dies if looked at, striking scorpions are cheaper.

See, if you're playing a competitive game, all VPs count. It doesn't make sense to not go for as many as you can.

Everything comes with a cost. Standing here for the chance to score next turn means dying and being unable to score the rest of the turns. Bad trade. Its not 'all VPs count', thats wishful thinking and not at all what happens with top of turn scoring. You have to minimize risk and maximize gain. Trying to outlast factions who play this better with your 'tanky' T3 models is a losing proposition.

Most people don't seem to be too bothered about Vehicles having T6, because if you're running T6 Vehicles...You're running 9 of them. Once you hit 7.5 Vehicles, just keep going, because your opponent is already at max VPs, they don't get more. If you've already decided to run Support Weapons or War Walkers, run ALL the Support Weapons/War Walkers.

Ah, it was more about people thinking Wave Serpents are suddenly in fashion to 'protect' valuable infantry.

For example, you can/should run 3 Characters, which is the minimum required to field a Battalion and another Detachment (or one Brigade). You can/should run 8+ Characters and just throw your opponent the 'free' Secondary and hopefully spamming that many characters pulls you out your max Secondary (Linebreaker?). But you shouldn't (not saying you can't, just that you're a way better player than me, if you do) run this weird middle ground of like...5 Characters.

Just won off the Path of Heroes combo, using shining spears to keep scoring 10 VP for primaries and netting me 40 VPs on secondaries. Lost primaries by 10, didnt matter, won secondaries by almost 30 VP so its still a win.

I still consider the faction garbage until new codex releases. What I did wont work a second time with the same oponent :v.

[Voidhawk]

Without tanky HQs to prevent 13/10 Warlord kills, Craftworlds are the sad face. As I said, I find it particularly difficult on two fronts, to come back from a Turn 1/2 Warlord kill.

Random thought: if you can't get a giant tanky brick warlord, go to the opposite extreme and make them the cheapest HQ you can get and stick them in reserve for the first 2 turns.

[Forum Explorer]

Swooping Hawks - currently - are great. They just don't/wont work in a meta that's all Marines, all the time - especially when those Marines hit 2 or 3 Wounds each.

How so? They are expensive, fragile, and do almost no damage. If I want to deep strike in to take an objective, I'm going with Warp Spiders. A base -1 to hit, they move much faster, and they're guns are S6, so they can actually wound stuff. Oh, and they have a 3+ save. For only 2 more points per model.


Anyways, I really like spamming Fire Dragons in Falcons/Wave Serpents. Yes, they are above 10 wounds, so they give up more points, but like you said, once you take enough vehicles there's no point in worrying about that anymore. Alternatively, you just take 2. That's only 6 points. Take Eldrad and a single Warlock, for characters, and that's only 6 points there as well. Then spend most of your points on Shining Spears, Dark Reapers and maybe a big unit of Wraithguard to Webway Portal in.

[druid91]

How? Everyone is running Psykers. Psykers are too good not to have.



When ~80% of the meta is now Marines with Eliminators that can see through walls, your Farseers aren't worth ****.
In my meta, I would take two Bike'Locks over one Bike'Seer every game. Every game. Hands down.

If I have the option for a unit, or a Character, as my HQ...I would take the unit every single time. But maybe that's just me in my Marine meta. Maybe some competitive metas haven't got the memo that Marines are the best in the game - still - and are still screwing around with Daemons and T'au, and don't have Snipers that can see through walls and don't have a Culexus Assassin now that they don't break Combat Doctrines.



Nothing can be hidden if your opponent knows how Eliminators work.
Eliminators have broken the meta since day 1, and haven't stopped.



It's not.
It's the Warlock Conclaves and Support Weapons Faction.

I mean, each model only getting one shot at lowish strength isn't great. I don't really see what the big deal is with eliminators.

[LansXero]

I mean, each model only getting one shot at lowish strength isn't great. I don't really see what the big deal is with eliminators.

They are scary when they can see you (check their other ammo options) OR when they cant see you and you have crap saves (i.e. Guard HQs). They do squat against things they cant see with a decent inv. or normal save (although Fists do get extra shots and to ignore Cover).

[Cheesegear]

Eldrad has a 3++ and the regular Ulthwe 6+++. Dont waste support on tax.

Forgot about him. Well played.
What are your other 2/3 HQs?

[Starcannons] also come with fragile ass chassis, and are currently overcosted in an already low model count army.

War Walkers aren't over-costed. Neither are Support Weapons. Maybe they are?
But then the joke is that over-costed models are still the best in the Codex? ...lol

how [War Walkers] ended up being cost effective but the codex makes it a crapshoot.

As always:
Don't buy new models.
If you already have War Walkers and Support Weapons, you're good.

But both are still playing into the static primaries playstyle that I think Marines and other factions will dominate come their codex

War Walkers aren't static. You're playing them wrong.

so it'll get dunked as the meta progresses.

Well, yeah. 9e is a trainwreck at launch. Kind of reminds me of AoS at launch, in many ways.
9e wont be 'worth playing' for a while, unless what you currently have, is accidentally competitive. But given how hard the status quo has been turned on its head, you have to go all the way back to 5th Ed. to find your competitive armies again.

If you want a sneaky deepstriker that cant kill anything and dies if looked at, striking scorpions are cheaper.

'T3 is victim Toughness'. I have no interest in giving my opponent VPs.
Remember kids, Custodes is the new meta.

Trying to outlast factions who play this better with your 'tanky' T3 models is a losing proposition.

Then make your army T6 and T4. If you're still running T3 models as Craftworlds, and those T3 models aren't minimum squads of Dire Avengers, you aren't really playing in the Custodes meta.

I still consider the faction garbage until new codex releases. What I did wont work a second time with the same oponent :v.

I consider every Faction garbage except Astartes and Astartes-like (e.g; Sororitas) armies garbage, until they get a Codex.

Random thought: if you can't get a giant tanky brick warlord, go to the opposite extreme and make them the cheapest HQ you can get and stick them in reserve for the first 2 turns.

There is that.
I really feel like wombo combos are on the way out. Hence why I'm so against 'Farseers for support'. I don't feel like you should be running any support. You should just be running good units. If a unit needs 'support' to be effective, then it's not a good unit. Because your opponent simply 'takes out' the support, and then you're back at mediocre-tier models.

How so? [Swooping Hawks] are expensive, fragile, and do almost no damage.

Once again, they deal no damage to Astartes.
Against everything else, they work fine. 4 shots per model will clean out most 5-mans and do a number on most 10-mans.
...Warp Spiders are way better though, against way more targets. No idea what I was thinking.

I mean, each model only getting one shot at lowish strength isn't great. I don't really see what the big deal is with eliminators.

Because on turn 1, all Space Marine units add AP-1 to their Heavy weapons.
Making them S5, AP-2, that hit on a 2+, and ignores Cover Save and can see through walls.
Then you multiply that by 9. Most Infantry-HQs are in for a bad time, unless they have an Invulnerable and Ignore Wounds (e.g; Eldrad).

The 'big deal' is that that's pretty good. And GT Missions massively push Slay the Warlord, boosting it to 13/10 VPs on Turns 1/2, making it better than almost every other Secondary in its category, if you can pull it off. You need to destroy exactly one, specific model, 13/10 VPs, thanks.
Then add to the fact that Imperial Assassins no longer ruin Combat Doctrines and you've got a game-breaker.

[druid91]

Forgot about him. Well played.
What are your other 2/3 HQs?



War Walkers aren't over-costed. Neither are Support Weapons. Maybe they are?
But then the joke is that over-costed models are still the best in the Codex? ...lol



As always:
Don't buy new models.
If you already have War Walkers and Support Weapons, you're good.



War Walkers aren't static. You're playing them wrong.



Well, yeah. 9e is a trainwreck at launch. Kind of reminds me of AoS at launch, in many ways.
9e wont be 'worth playing' for a while, unless what you currently have, is accidentally competitive. But given how hard the status quo has been turned on its head, you have to go all the way back to 5th Ed. to find your competitive armies again.



'T3 is victim Toughness'. I have no interest in giving my opponent VPs.
Remember kids, Custodes is the new meta.



Then make your army T6 and T4. If you're still running T3 models as Craftworlds, and those T3 models aren't minimum squads of Dire Avengers, you aren't really playing in the Custodes meta.



I consider every Faction garbage except Astartes and Astartes-like (e.g; Sororitas) armies garbage, until they get a Codex.



There is that.
I really feel like wombo combos are on the way out. Hence why I'm so against 'Farseers for support'. I don't feel like you should be running any support. You should just be running good units. If a unit needs 'support' to be effective, then it's not a good unit. Because your opponent simply 'takes out' the support, and then you're back at mediocre-tier models.



Once again, they deal no damage to Astartes.
Against everything else, they work fine. 4 shots per model will clean out most 5-mans and do a number on most 10-mans.
...Warp Spiders are way better though, against way more targets. No idea what I was thinking.



Because on turn 1, all Space Marine units add AP-1 to their Heavy weapons.
Making them S5, AP-2, that hit on a 2+, and ignores Cover Save and can see through walls.
Then you multiply that by 9. Most Infantry-HQs are in for a bad time, unless they have an Invulnerable and Ignore Wounds (e.g; Eldrad).

The 'big deal' is that that's pretty good. And GT Missions massively push Slay the Warlord, boosting it to 13/10 VPs on Turns 1/2, making it better than almost every other Secondary in its category, if you can pull it off. You need to destroy exactly one, specific model, 13/10 VPs, thanks.
Then add to the fact that Imperial Assassins no longer ruin Combat Doctrines and you've got a game-breaker.

So... Don't play those missions? Or stick your warlord in a transport or bunker for turn 1-2. Or go first and bomb them off the board. It's not like eliminators are especially tanky, and they're not characters, and have to be within 36" so within range to shoot up with your own guys.

[Squark]

So... Don't play those missions? Or stick your warlord in a transport or bunker for turn 1-2. Or go first and bomb them off the board. It's not like eliminators are especially tanky, and they're not characters, and have to be within 36" so within range to shoot up with your own guys.

The Grand tournament rules are the rules GW is pushing for competitive play. I'd argue you're right not to play those missions, but at the moment, when discussing competition, we talk about the GT rules

Removing Eliminators is trickier than you're making it out to be unless you have your own ignore line-of-sight, ignore-cover weapons, since they'll be well hidden behind a line of sight blocker (which you want on the table for dozens of other reasons), and with Camo cloaks, they have a 1+save while in that cover. You can remove them on turn one, but that's probably at the expense of removing other key enemy units, or moving other units into exposed positions to get a good shot. As for transports and bunkers, well, there are secondary objectives that target those, too, so lose-lose.

[Forum Explorer]

Forgot about him. Well played.
What are your other 2/3 HQs?




Once again, they deal no damage to Astartes.
Against everything else, they work fine. 4 shots per model will clean out most 5-mans and do a number on most 10-mans.
...Warp Spiders are way better though, against way more targets. No idea what I was thinking.



Because on turn 1, all Space Marine units add AP-1 to their Heavy weapons.
Making them S5, AP-2, that hit on a 2+, and ignores Cover Save and can see through walls.
Then you multiply that by 9. Most Infantry-HQs are in for a bad time, unless they have an Invulnerable and Ignore Wounds (e.g; Eldrad).

The 'big deal' is that that's pretty good. And GT Missions massively push Slay the Warlord, boosting it to 13/10 VPs on Turns 1/2, making it better than almost every other Secondary in its category, if you can pull it off. You need to destroy exactly one, specific model, 13/10 VPs, thanks.
Then add to the fact that Imperial Assassins no longer ruin Combat Doctrines and you've got a game-breaker.

Usually a Warlock/Spiritseer, and a Autarch Skyrunner. Or the Avatar because I love that model, but he's not very competitive.


See, I feel if a unit is actively bad against Marines, then it's a bad unit. Well, if it's expensive anyways. A cheap unit can (and should) be bad against pretty much anything and still see use. But Marines and Marine equivalents are way too prevalent to go 'oh this unit is bad against them, but they'll make that up in other games.' I mean, I'd say I have a solid 50-50 chance to face Marines (or CSM) or literally any other army.


Word is Eliminators are losing the Ignores LoS rule. Well kinda. They still can, they just can't Ignore LoS and Ignore Look Out Sir at the same time. So they are basically like any other snipers these days.

[Cheesegear]

So... Don't play those missions?

I like where your head's at...But no.

Or stick your warlord in a transport or bunker for turn 1-2.

While possible, it suffers from what is always the problem when your stuff isn't on the board. Transports simply aren't good enough, to warrant actually...Transporting something...Because the open turn(s) are so much more valuable to the game than the later turn(s). Anything you have that isn't on the board...Isn't on the board.

This is why - outside of ITC, of course - Scions were so good for almost all of 8th. You could put ****-tons of them in Reserves (or inside Valkyries), and you didn't actually lose anything because Scions were so cheap.

Or go first and bomb them off the board.

~50% of the time that wont work.

It's not like eliminators are especially tanky, and they're not characters, and have to be within 36" so within range to shoot up with your own guys.

The problem is that in 9e your boards are smaller, so it's harder to hide.
Second, because Eliminators can see through walls, they are totally able to shoot, and you can't shoot back.

See, I feel if a unit is actively bad against Marines, then it's a bad unit.

If we were talking about pure tournament meta play, I would agree with you.
If we're talking about your or my meta...Well, as I said, nobody's buying new models (or they shouldn't be...) so there should be a lot of holdover from 8e where people are still running Daemons, T'au, Craftworlds and Guard with the odd Tyranid and Ork player thrown in. Well, I'm speaking for myself, I guess.

I'm beginning to feel like Death Guard is the new Craftworlds, in that "lol, my Codex has no bad units, I can do anything I want and still be competitive."
Which would be great...If GW hadn't made Necrons the new 'other starter' army.

Word is Eliminators are losing the Ignores LoS rule. Well kinda. They still can, they just can't Ignore LoS and Ignore Look Out Sir at the same time. So they are basically like any other snipers these days.

When Eliminators came out of Shadowspear, they were S4, AP-1. At their cost, people were like "Why would I want expensive Intercessors in my Heavy Support slot!? That's where Thunderfire Cannons go."
Then for no reason, the Codex came out and they were suddenly S5, AP-2. Oh...Okay then. I'll take nine.

Feels a lot like Warglaives:
[Promotional/Limited Box with Alpha/Beta rules]; "Why the **** would I want those!?"
[Codex with real rules]; "...Oh. Well why didn't you say so!?"

[lord_khaine]

Oh god, Eleminators does sound like a prime example of that fresh-edition BS.
Seriously? Ignore both LoS and LOS?

[LansXero]

Oh god, Eleminators does sound like a prime example of that fresh-edition BS.
Seriously? Ignore both LoS and LOS?

been that way for months, whats it got to do with the new edition?

[xroads]

While possible, it suffers from what is always the problem when your stuff isn't on the board. Transports simply aren't good enough, to warrant actually...Transporting something...Because the open turn(s) are so much more valuable to the game than the later turn(s). Anything you have that isn't on the board...Isn't on the board.

Interesting. I've seen quite a bit of theory-crafting that suggest some factions (ex. AdMech & GSC), will start to make more use of transports in order to get their infantry to the objectives quickly.

But at the same time, I've watched several 9E matches and not one of them has used transports yet.

[Forum Explorer]

If we were talking about pure tournament meta play, I would agree with you.
If we're talking about your or my meta...Well, as I said, nobody's buying new models (or they shouldn't be...) so there should be a lot of holdover from 8e where people are still running Daemons, T'au, Craftworlds and Guard with the odd Tyranid and Ork player thrown in. Well, I'm speaking for myself, I guess.

I'm beginning to feel like Death Guard is the new Craftworlds, in that "lol, my Codex has no bad units, I can do anything I want and still be competitive."
Which would be great...If GW hadn't made Necrons the new 'other starter' army.



When Eliminators came out of Shadowspear, they were S4, AP-1. At their cost, people were like "Why would I want expensive Intercessors in my Heavy Support slot!? That's where Thunderfire Cannons go."
Then for no reason, the Codex came out and they were suddenly S5, AP-2. Oh...Okay then. I'll take nine.

Feels a lot like Warglaives:
[Promotional/Limited Box with Alpha/Beta rules]; "Why the **** would I want those!?"
[Codex with real rules]; "...Oh. Well why didn't you say so!?"

My meta isn't that competitive, but it is rife with Marines. I don't know how this stacks up to yours but I'd say around 50% of my meta plays Marines, or Chaos Space Marines. Then you get the occasional Custodes or Necron player and it's more often than not that Swooping Hawks are useless. Also what Swooping Hawks are good at (killing T3, or units with a 4+ save or worse) is really really common in Craftworlds, and most things do it better than them anyways. For starters, Dire Avengers are the go-to troop choice and you have to take troops, and that's what they are good at. Otherwise it's just the many sources of Shuriken Cannons or Scatter Lasers that you can get.

GW seems to have gotten the hang of making them OP right at the start now. So now rather going through the cycle of Useless->Buffed to OP->Finally nerfed, we get: OP at release -> Finally nerfed

Oh god, Eleminators does sound like a prime example of that fresh-edition BS.
Seriously? Ignore both LoS and LOS?

They were last edition BS. This edition it's the super cheap, don't give up VP quads, and the ridiculously undercosted, shoot twice, melta Primaris.

[Cheesegear]

Interesting. I've seen quite a bit of theory-crafting that suggest some factions (ex. AdMech & GSC), will start to make more use of transports in order to get their infantry to the objectives quickly.

Always be wary of the difference of what you can do, and what you should do.
I find especially that 1d4chan does that a lot. Where wombo combos and deaths stars are talked about and explained it great detail and how great a certain strategy might be. But they fail to mention points costs, and will often say something like 'if it can do this, it's especially good' (common with melee units, "This unit sure will be great when it gets into melee...On Turn 3...Maybe...Against a unit not of my choosing...").

9th Ed. has a lot of that right now, with people trying to:
a) Breathe life into a social game during global social restrictions, and
b) 9th Ed. isn't DoA, honest, look at all this cool stuff that isn't totally meaningless because we've confirmed everything you own is inevitably garbage, but also we wont tell you when things will be good for you because that's our whole marketing strategy in a nutshell because we really need you to just give up and buy the new stuff, now, and finally
c) I mean...Everything sucks, but we gotta make the best of it...Just don't quit. 10 amazing AdMech hacks that will surprise you (if you haven't actually read your Codex)!

But if I was playing AdMech, I'd just use Infiltrators and Ruststalkers to get where I need to be. And if that fails, they've got dudes riding fire-horses and Jump Infantry. And of course, every boat you build that's the Transport one, is a boat you built that isn't the Heavy Support one and what are you even doing?

Not so much that AdMech will use Transports. But it feels like they could, and not lose games. The boats aren't totally awful. Then again, I find that in general, Vehicles are struggling in 9e, with a few exceptions that hover under 100 Points (then again, Eradicators will come out in force at some point, making all Vehicles garbage, even the good ones). And the reason they're good, is because they're under a hundred points and thus you have lots of them.

It's the old Dark Angel strategy from 6th Ed. all over again:
1 Land Speeder is a trash tier garbage fire unit.
15 Land Speeders will give your opponents nightmares.
(Remembering that Astartes armies actually struggled for real in 6th Ed., so there are a few weird builds from that time)