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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    "the new rules are bad because GW is encouraging people to breach health and safety laws"
    FLG/ITC explicitly stated that smaller board space is a good thing, because it allows more ticket sales/players at their tournaments.
    The ITC appears to be instrumental in the creation of 9th Ed.

    and realised it was a bad-faith argument based on deciding "everything sucks"
    Overcrowded tournaments has happened twice, that I know of. Where the venue's capacity did not take into account rows and rows and rows of 4' wide tables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Also the Obscuring keyword can be added to more terrain then just ruins. Take Forests for example. I think those are around 5 inches (the official GW ones anyways), and it would certainly make sense for them to be Obscuring.
    I could make, myself, a bunch of terrain pieces that I think should be Obscuring. But, unless they're 5" high, they're not.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    FLG/ITC explicitly stated that smaller board space is a good thing, because it allows more ticket sales/players at their tournaments.
    The ITC appears to be instrumental in the creation of 9th Ed.



    Overcrowded tournaments has happened twice, that I know of. Where the venue's capacity did not take into account rows and rows and rows of 4' wide tables.
    A) so you're saying it's already happening?
    B) surely that's the tournament organiser's fault, not the rules writer?
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I could make, myself, a bunch of terrain pieces that I think should be Obscuring. But, unless they're 5" high, they're not.
    If you wanted to, you can just add a single 5" stick to whatever you think should be Obscuring and then it's technically 5" high. But I'm thinking of the official GW forests. It's been a long time since I've actually seen them, let alone measured them, but I think they might hit the 5" mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    A) so you're saying it's already happening?
    B) surely that's the tournament organiser's fault, not the rules writer?
    a) It is already happening.
    b) And the tournament scene is already excited about being able to get more players in, explicitly because of the smaller table sizes.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Sure, but if the rules of the game allow you to do something, that doesn't give you license to break the rules of the venue, and if you do it's obviously only your own fault. If you burn down a building having a fire-eating contest, I can't imagine you'll get very far arguing "but the internationally agreed standard rules for fire-eating competitions say-"

    I'm getting caught up in minutiae because the response to "you've already decided everything this edition is going to suck" was more babbling about fire codes.
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2020-06-16 at 03:15 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Sure, but if the rules of the game allow you to do something, that doesn't give you license to break the rules of the venue, and if you do it's obviously only your own fault. If you burn down a building having a fire-eating contest, I can't imagine you'll get very far arguing "but the internationally agreed standard rules for fire-eating competitions say-"
    Sure, sure. It's not GW's responsibility. But it is going to happen regardless.

    GW's motives are a little different. They want to drive out competitors by making things more 'exclusive' and 40K only. IE, making it so you can't reuse your 40K game table for Drop Fleet or whatnot. And encouraging people to buy more GW products (the terrain sizes are all multiples of Kill Team tables.)

    Oh, and I forgot to mention this to Cheesegear; the smaller tables does buff melee. Sure you have the same 24 inches between your deployment zones, but your deployment zones aren't as deep as they were. So if they deploy a unit on their table edge, it'll be closer than it is now.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    If you wanted to, you can just add a single 5" stick to whatever you think should be Obscuring and then it's technically 5" high. But I'm thinking of the official GW forests. It's been a long time since I've actually seen them, let alone measured them, but I think they might hit the 5" mark.
    The old citadel woods are 5” at their tallest extent, just. It’s close enough I could see people arguing about it, but for games played with my terrain I will count them as 5”.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    If you wanted to, you can just add a single 5" stick to whatever you think should be Obscuring and then it's technically 5" high.
    ...Expletives deleted.
    That's so cynical I can't believe I didn't think of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Sure you have the same 24 inches between your deployment zones, but your deployment zones aren't as deep as they were. So if they deploy a unit on their table edge, it'll be closer than it is now.
    I see your point. But I fundamentally disagree on the practical application of such a deployment style (units that utilise Jump or Gate don't count).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I see your point. But I fundamentally disagree on the practical application of such a deployment style (units that utilise Jump or Gate don't count).
    I expect the new rules for strategic reserves will play a factor in how viable staying in a deployment zone is, and how much the smaller table size matters. It sounds like they want more units appearing from many different directions, though we haven’t seen the rules for this yet, so no idea how it will work in practice.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    inb4; 'You can still use your old Bikes.' Sure, you're dumb if you do, though.
    Holy Hell a Primaris Bike has 4 Wounds... Does that mean it's going to cost double a regular Bike? ...Very unlikely.
    At least they can't take Meltaguns and Flamers and put that phenomenal speed to good use? ...That's something, isn't it?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Holy Hell a Primaris Bike has 4 Wounds... Does that mean it's going to cost double a regular Bike? ...Very unlikely.
    At least they can't take Meltaguns and Flamers and put that phenomenal speed to good use? ...That's something, isn't it?
    While the math probably doesn't line up exactly, a rule of thumb for doubling the health of a model without significantly increasing its other capabilities would be to multiply its cost by ~1.4. So, given the extra attack and getting to have a chainsword and a heavy bolt pistol, 1.5 times the cost of an old space marine bike would be more acceptable.

    EDIT: Wait, those are almost certainly bolt rifles.... That would drive the projected appropriate cost up more, and I doubt they'll be 1.6-1.7 times the cost of an old bike.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    At least they can't take Meltaguns and Flamers* and put that phenomenal speed to good use?
    *yet. Remember that the models are push fit, just be ready to get Meltas and Flamers in the multipart box!

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Ultimately, what I want out of terrain is for a wood to feel different from a ruin and both to feel different to an intact building. It sounds like this does this? So is an improvement in my book.
    But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.

    No True LOS means the actual shape of your terrain is meaningless. Take a surface cutout, plant a 5.1" flagpole in it, declare it obscuring. Done. Thats the issue, all that matters is footpring and keyword, actual terrain shape or work does not. I declare this cutout a wood, this one a hill, this one a ruin. sharpie keywords on top. Good. Done. Fun and Interactive.

    If anything, you should be treating 9th Ed., as simply a really, really big version of Chapter Approved
    But a new edition was just what the game needed!!! :v

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.
    You can put whatever rule you want on anything you want - it's all the same! Every unit is basically identical.

    No True LOS means the actual shape of your terrain is meaningless. Take a surface cutout, plant a 5.1" flagpole in it, declare it obscuring. Done. Thats the issue, all that matters is footpring and keyword, actual terrain shape or work does not. I declare this cutout a wood, this one a hill, this one a ruin. sharpie keywords on top. Good. Done. Fun and Interactive.
    Yeah, you're right, i'm swapping all my models for little circles of paper.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    You can put whatever rule you want on anything you want - it's all the same! Every unit is basically identical.

    Yeah, you're right, i'm swapping all my models for little circles of paper.
    I can't though, I can proxy things as this or that but I cant move rules from one unit to the other. I cant decide "this game my crimson hunters have hover, next game they wont" just because I feel like it.

    As for circles of paper, I've played that way. No biggie. Im also not the one clamoring the new terrain rules make them ever so unique and this is ever so different from 8th that necesitated a new edition. My point from the start was: we got decent rules, and a ton of varied rules nobody is even using, and the new rules wont make a bit of diference or make your terrain feel unique or whatever subjective goal you're aiming for.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.
    Just because they can have the same keywords, doesn't mean they will (or should). Yes, you could make everything Light Cover and Obscuring, but then that's on you.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.

    No True LOS means the actual shape of your terrain is meaningless. Take a surface cutout, plant a 5.1" flagpole in it, declare it obscuring. Done. Thats the issue, all that matters is footpring and keyword, actual terrain shape or work does not. I declare this cutout a wood, this one a hill, this one a ruin. sharpie keywords on top. Good. Done. Fun and Interactive.
    The problem with terrain in 8th was that, unless it was a very specific type of terrain that actually blocked line of sight, the base rules were kind of meaningless, so it either didn't affect gameplay or required house ruling and strange terrain choices like ITC. Then, if you wanted something extra, you had optional add-ons that were non-intuitive to remember and didn't really add much: a narrative game might want to have some plasma conduits, but it's not really good as a basic part of the system.

    Now, there are keywords that are consistent and (hopefully) simple in effect, each with a meaningful impact in the way you would expect terrain to have an impact. We haven't got stuff like Plasma Conduits, which give a bonus to shooting, or the statues giving leadership buffs, instead the rules are much more physrep neutral and linked into stuff you expect terrain to do: disrupting movement or providing protection.

    Additionally, you can use whatever you want to represent the terrain, and agree with your opponent the rules in advance: great! I am a wealthy, experienced player, with a reasonably good collection of terrain, but not everyone is, so having the new rules is much more accessible to new players: as you say, they can cut out a piece of paper if they really have to! This isn't a bad thing! Obviously, you wouldn’t want it in a tournament, but not every game is at a tournament. Thinking back to my very first games, I had pine cones painted green and placed on circles of paper to use as forests: in eighth, these wouldn't have done much beyond maybe giving a bit of cover. In ninth, they have a much more tangible effect that is customisable to the circumstances.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Completely unrelated question: When did Librarian Dreadnoughts first appear? I have a vague memory of seeing one in a White Dwarf back in the mid to late 90s, but I've never been able to track it down, and my Google-fu is failing me.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Completely unrelated question: When did Librarian Dreadnoughts first appear? I have a vague memory of seeing one in a White Dwarf back in the mid to late 90s, but I've never been able to track it down, and my Google-fu is failing me.
    It was in blood angels, so probably the White Dwarf that had the Blood Angels rules for that edition.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Y'know something that I think would be kind of neat? Like a legitimate Necromunda Esque system for wider 40k.

    I think the main thing that would be needed to make it work is to sort of draw a line between the 'Heroes' of your army and the chaff. Kind of like Necromunda draws between leaders/champions and gangers.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Y'know something that I think would be kind of neat? Like a legitimate Necromunda Esque system for wider 40k.

    I think the main thing that would be needed to make it work is to sort of draw a line between the 'Heroes' of your army and the chaff. Kind of like Necromunda draws between leaders/champions and gangers.
    You mean like the Character keyword, or like the HQ unit type?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.

    No True LOS means the actual shape of your terrain is meaningless. Take a surface cutout, plant a 5.1" flagpole in it, declare it obscuring. Done. Thats the issue, all that matters is footpring and keyword, actual terrain shape or work does not. I declare this cutout a wood, this one a hill, this one a ruin. sharpie keywords on top. Good. Done. Fun and Interactive.
    I take it as a matter of professional pride as a TO to NOT do that sort of thing, and if I attended a tournament where the TO had set up tables that way I wouldn't be back.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Y'know something that I think would be kind of neat? Like a legitimate Necromunda Esque system for wider 40k.

    I think the main thing that would be needed to make it work is to sort of draw a line between the 'Heroes' of your army and the chaff. Kind of like Necromunda draws between leaders/champions and gangers.
    Which particular bits do you mean? There is a lot of different stuff in Necromunda! If you mean experience and advancement, well, hopefully Crusade will give an element of that, though likely less complex than in Necromunda.

    Reminds me of one of my biggest frustrations with 40k atm: the approach to relics and warlord traits. I wish they weren’t tied to the CP system, as it means that many of them will never get used. There should be some way of allowing different power levels of relics and warlord traits to have a place.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Y'know something that I think would be kind of neat? Like a legitimate Necromunda Esque system for wider 40k.

    I think the main thing that would be needed to make it work is to sort of draw a line between the 'Heroes' of your army and the chaff. Kind of like Necromunda draws between leaders/champions and gangers.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Y'know something that I think would be kind of neat? Like a legitimate Necromunda Esque system for wider 40k.

    I think the main thing that would be needed to make it work is to sort of draw a line between the 'Heroes' of your army and the chaff. Kind of like Necromunda draws between leaders/champions and gangers.
    I honestly don't see the difference between what you're describing, and Kill Team. Even the basic edition - ignoring Commanders and Elites - had "Hero" units with unique skills not available to the rank-and-file.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Completely unrelated question: When did Librarian Dreadnoughts first appear? I have a vague memory of seeing one in a White Dwarf back in the mid to late 90s, but I've never been able to track it down, and my Google-fu is failing me.
    I'm pretty sure that their first appearence was in Blood Angels 5th Edition Codex (April 2010). I remember the confusion-come-disbelief that occurred when they apparently arrived out of nowhere, and were then almost immediately forgotten because Furioso Dreadnoughts were also a Blood Angels thing, and generally just better.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The problem with terrain in 8th was that, unless it was a very specific type of terrain that actually blocked line of sight, the base rules were kind of meaningless
    The new keywords are Scalable, Defensible and Hard Cover. Melee cover already is like whatever, since it doesnt work when you get charged, so those two others are meaningful? Escalable alone is weird, because the 8th rulebook already mentions going through windows and stuff. Fighting a guy on top of you while being in the floor level is indeed a game changer, but then it only affects multi-story ruins and buildings, which are the sole type that matters, just like 8th.


    o it either didn't affect gameplay or required house ruling and strange terrain choices like ITC. Then, if you wanted something extra, you had optional add-ons that were non-intuitive to remember and didn't really add much: a narrative game might want to have some plasma conduits, but it's not really good as a basic part of the system.

    Now, there are keywords that are consistent and (hopefully) simple in effect, each with a meaningful impact in the way you would expect terrain to have an impact
    .

    Like what? Obscuring is just the ITC angled walls in keyword form. Melee cover and 'cant melee one floor above' really make that huge of a difference for you?

    instead the rules are much more physrep neutral and linked into stuff you expect terrain to do: disrupting movement or providing protection.
    But the keywords do things that the old terrain already did. The allowance to make custom terrain to mix and match those effects is already in the 8th core rulebook. Putting the same effects on keywords doesnt mean its a brand new experience. Melee cover during your second turn of fighting is nothing, and scaleable / defensible is only for ruins / buildings so anything new and relevant is already going to the same terrain types that were everywhere in 8th. Whats this surprising innovation you keep refering to?

    As you say, they can cut out a piece of paper if they really have to! This isn't a bad thing! Obviously, you wouldn’t want it in a tournament, but not every game is at a tournament. Thinking back to my very first games, I had pine cones painted green and placed on circles of paper to use as forests: in eighth, these wouldn't have done much beyond maybe giving a bit of cover. In ninth, they have a much more tangible effect that is customisable to the circumstances.
    But they already could do that. Make hills out of styrofoam, make woods out of christmas stuff, DIY tutorials for terrain are everywhere and nothing from 9th makes them any easier (or harder) to make. The fact that you can slap keywords around clashes with your initial "now terrain does more what you'd expect it to do" assessment, because it doesnt do anything on its own unless your oponent is cool with that. So unless you are playing casualworld of madeup keyword mashups, everyone will simply go with either the core book examples (and thats back to 8th "each piece has these rules") or use the simplest ones and forget the others (back to 8th where nobody uses the 'cool' stuff). So how exactly is terrain now more "meaningful"? Its ingame rules impact remains the same, while its footprint covers more % of the table, that alone matters not when their effects get ignored, and again it has a heavy bias for what can be Obscuring / Defensible vs what can only get Cover which makes it as skewed as 8th.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Which particular bits do you mean? There is a lot of different stuff in Necromunda! If you mean experience and advancement, well, hopefully Crusade will give an element of that, though likely less complex than in Necromunda.

    Reminds me of one of my biggest frustrations with 40k atm: the approach to relics and warlord traits. I wish they weren’t tied to the CP system, as it means that many of them will never get used. There should be some way of allowing different power levels of relics and warlord traits to have a place.
    Experience and advancement yeah, but also the wide open equipment system that comes together with the skills and advancement to almost make it a pseudo RPG. Which I honestly don't expect crusade to do.

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    I honestly don't see the difference between what you're describing, and Kill Team. Even the basic edition - ignoring Commanders and Elites - had "Hero" units with unique skills not available to the rank-and-file.
    I don't mean skirmish level. Basically what I'm picturing is you'd have your normal 40k army as is. Then you'd replace the warlord and a potentially a few other characters in it with customizable, advancement capable, heroes. With skills. Possibly crib off Necromunda, have a bunch of generic skills anyone can take. Then a set of faction skills to represent unique training.

    The bulk of your army is static, like any normal 40k army. But the CHARACTERS advance, get injured, die. Etc. Obviously suffers from the same issue any growing narrative campaign does... but still seems fun.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    The problem with terrain in 8th was that, unless it was a very specific type of terrain that actually blocked line of sight, the base rules were kind of meaningless, so it either didn't affect gameplay or required house ruling and strange terrain choices like ITC.
    It still will.

    Then, if you wanted something extra, you had optional add-ons that were non-intuitive to remember
    Everything was intuitive to remember. It's just that everything was all bad, except Ruins.

    Now, there are keywords that are consistent and (hopefully) simple in effect
    Terrain has always been consistent and simple. It's in the rulebook. All the Terrain is there. How is a printed rule, in a rulebook that everyone has access to, not consistent?
    It's just that the only Terrain that matters is Ruins and Buildings, because of their ability to block LoS when constructed.

    All's 9th Ed. is doing, is potentially giving all Terrain what makes Ruins and Buildings good - the ability to block LoS...But only if the terrain is tall, regardless of density.

    Terrain has no other gameplay-value. It's all aesthetics. The issue in 8th Ed., is that aesthetically pleasing terrain (e.g; a Forest or Wood) doesn't have even close to the same game-effect that an ugly, square metal box has. If you don't care about aesthetics, because it's the game that matters...

    This potentially is the scenario that LansXero is talking about.
    The only thing that matters, is LoS. In that case, terrain is simply a piece of paper with a 5" pole on it. We've seen basically this at a few tournaments now. Terrain is expensive and the bottom tables get what they get.

    Additionally, you can use whatever you want to represent the terrain, and agree with your opponent the rules in advance: great!
    "Anything you suggest, I disagree. Please add 'Obscuring' to every single terrain piece and get rid of every terrain piece that isn't 5" tall, or I'll find another opponent."

    This is the problem. You have someone tell you the rules, and both of you follow the same rules.
    The instant you let people make their own rules, nobody will agree on anything and chaos ensues as people join Factions and no-one can play with anyone outside their 'group'. (insert real world example).

    as you say, they can cut out a piece of paper if they really have to! This isn't a bad thing!
    They have always been able to do that. It's just ****.

    In ninth, [pine cones] have a much more tangible effect that is customisable to the circumstances.
    Customisable to the circumstance? Why wouldn't it be the same every game? Oh...Because in one game you can game an advantage by changing its rules on purpose? Interesting.

    At the end of the day, do they block LoS? If they do, then that's the only tangible effect they'll have.

    This is what 9th Ed. is doing.

    All (good) Terrain is now a magic box. You can't see through it, but you can see in it. Aesthetics don't or wont change how your terrain plays.
    A table of Ruins plays almost exactly the same as a table of Forests, because there's only one rule that matters - Obscuring.
    You can now mix up your board again to be as pretty as you want (as long as most of it is 5" tall...That's still an infuriating stipulation).

    9th Ed. wont be all Ruins, all the time. It'll be all Obscuring, all the time. Similar, but different.
    Better? Absolutely...For hobby.
    For gameplay almost nothing will change.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    9th Ed. wont be all Ruins, all the time. It'll be all Obscuring, all the time. Similar, but different.
    Better? Absolutely...For hobby.
    For gameplay almost nothing will change.
    So what you're saying is, it's objectively better in every way.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    So what you're saying is, it's objectively better in every way.
    I mean. Yes.
    But not because 'You can customise terrain, so it can be different every time!'
    But because 'All terrain is the same, so it can be the same every time.'
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    This is the problem. You have someone tell you the rules, and both of you follow the same rules.
    The instant you let people make their own rules, nobody will agree on anything and chaos ensues as people join Factions and no-one can play with anyone outside their 'group'. (insert real world example).
    Cheesegear, are all the people you play with this toxic, to the point where they'll argue over terrain and factionalize instantly rather than just go "okay, cool"? Where they'll wheedle endlessly to get you to fight their min-maxed Crusade army and abuse power levels?

    If so, how can I avoid these players?
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