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2020-06-16, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
FLG/ITC explicitly stated that smaller board space is a good thing, because it allows more ticket sales/players at their tournaments.
The ITC appears to be instrumental in the creation of 9th Ed.
and realised it was a bad-faith argument based on deciding "everything sucks"
I could make, myself, a bunch of terrain pieces that I think should be Obscuring. But, unless they're 5" high, they're not.
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2020-06-16, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-16, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
If you wanted to, you can just add a single 5" stick to whatever you think should be Obscuring and then it's technically 5" high. But I'm thinking of the official GW forests. It's been a long time since I've actually seen them, let alone measured them, but I think they might hit the 5" mark.
a) It is already happening.
b) And the tournament scene is already excited about being able to get more players in, explicitly because of the smaller table sizes.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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2020-06-16, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Sure, but if the rules of the game allow you to do something, that doesn't give you license to break the rules of the venue, and if you do it's obviously only your own fault. If you burn down a building having a fire-eating contest, I can't imagine you'll get very far arguing "but the internationally agreed standard rules for fire-eating competitions say-"
I'm getting caught up in minutiae because the response to "you've already decided everything this edition is going to suck" was more babbling about fire codes.Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2020-06-16 at 03:15 AM.
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2020-06-16, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Sure, sure. It's not GW's responsibility. But it is going to happen regardless.
GW's motives are a little different. They want to drive out competitors by making things more 'exclusive' and 40K only. IE, making it so you can't reuse your 40K game table for Drop Fleet or whatnot. And encouraging people to buy more GW products (the terrain sizes are all multiples of Kill Team tables.)
Oh, and I forgot to mention this to Cheesegear; the smaller tables does buff melee. Sure you have the same 24 inches between your deployment zones, but your deployment zones aren't as deep as they were. So if they deploy a unit on their table edge, it'll be closer than it is now.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2020-06-16, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2020-06-16, 03:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
...Expletives deleted.
That's so cynical I can't believe I didn't think of it.
I see your point. But I fundamentally disagree on the practical application of such a deployment style (units that utilise Jump or Gate don't count).
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2020-06-16, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
I expect the new rules for strategic reserves will play a factor in how viable staying in a deployment zone is, and how much the smaller table size matters. It sounds like they want more units appearing from many different directions, though we haven’t seen the rules for this yet, so no idea how it will work in practice.
Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2020-06-16, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
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2020-06-16, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
While the math probably doesn't line up exactly, a rule of thumb for doubling the health of a model without significantly increasing its other capabilities would be to multiply its cost by ~1.4. So, given the extra attack and getting to have a chainsword and a heavy bolt pistol, 1.5 times the cost of an old space marine bike would be more acceptable.
EDIT: Wait, those are almost certainly bolt rifles.... That would drive the projected appropriate cost up more, and I doubt they'll be 1.6-1.7 times the cost of an old bike.Last edited by Squark; 2020-06-16 at 10:50 AM.
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2020-06-16, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-16, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.
No True LOS means the actual shape of your terrain is meaningless. Take a surface cutout, plant a 5.1" flagpole in it, declare it obscuring. Done. Thats the issue, all that matters is footpring and keyword, actual terrain shape or work does not. I declare this cutout a wood, this one a hill, this one a ruin. sharpie keywords on top. Good. Done. Fun and Interactive.
If anything, you should be treating 9th Ed., as simply a really, really big version of Chapter Approved
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2020-06-16, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
But you can move keywords around from one to the other, so how are they so very different now? Sure, stuff like Scalable cant go on Woods, but then it can also not go on ruins if you choose to.
No True LOS means the actual shape of your terrain is meaningless. Take a surface cutout, plant a 5.1" flagpole in it, declare it obscuring. Done. Thats the issue, all that matters is footpring and keyword, actual terrain shape or work does not. I declare this cutout a wood, this one a hill, this one a ruin. sharpie keywords on top. Good. Done. Fun and Interactive.- Avatar by LCP -
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2020-06-16, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
I can't though, I can proxy things as this or that but I cant move rules from one unit to the other. I cant decide "this game my crimson hunters have hover, next game they wont" just because I feel like it.
As for circles of paper, I've played that way. No biggie. Im also not the one clamoring the new terrain rules make them ever so unique and this is ever so different from 8th that necesitated a new edition. My point from the start was: we got decent rules, and a ton of varied rules nobody is even using, and the new rules wont make a bit of diference or make your terrain feel unique or whatever subjective goal you're aiming for.
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2020-06-16, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2020-06-16, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
The problem with terrain in 8th was that, unless it was a very specific type of terrain that actually blocked line of sight, the base rules were kind of meaningless, so it either didn't affect gameplay or required house ruling and strange terrain choices like ITC. Then, if you wanted something extra, you had optional add-ons that were non-intuitive to remember and didn't really add much: a narrative game might want to have some plasma conduits, but it's not really good as a basic part of the system.
Now, there are keywords that are consistent and (hopefully) simple in effect, each with a meaningful impact in the way you would expect terrain to have an impact. We haven't got stuff like Plasma Conduits, which give a bonus to shooting, or the statues giving leadership buffs, instead the rules are much more physrep neutral and linked into stuff you expect terrain to do: disrupting movement or providing protection.
Additionally, you can use whatever you want to represent the terrain, and agree with your opponent the rules in advance: great! I am a wealthy, experienced player, with a reasonably good collection of terrain, but not everyone is, so having the new rules is much more accessible to new players: as you say, they can cut out a piece of paper if they really have to! This isn't a bad thing! Obviously, you wouldn’t want it in a tournament, but not every game is at a tournament. Thinking back to my very first games, I had pine cones painted green and placed on circles of paper to use as forests: in eighth, these wouldn't have done much beyond maybe giving a bit of cover. In ninth, they have a much more tangible effect that is customisable to the circumstances.Last edited by Avaris; 2020-06-16 at 04:55 PM.
Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2020-06-16, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Completely unrelated question: When did Librarian Dreadnoughts first appear? I have a vague memory of seeing one in a White Dwarf back in the mid to late 90s, but I've never been able to track it down, and my Google-fu is failing me.
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
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2020-06-16, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2020-06-16, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Y'know something that I think would be kind of neat? Like a legitimate Necromunda Esque system for wider 40k.
I think the main thing that would be needed to make it work is to sort of draw a line between the 'Heroes' of your army and the chaff. Kind of like Necromunda draws between leaders/champions and gangers.
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2020-06-16, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
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2020-06-16, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2020-06-16, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Which particular bits do you mean? There is a lot of different stuff in Necromunda! If you mean experience and advancement, well, hopefully Crusade will give an element of that, though likely less complex than in Necromunda.
Reminds me of one of my biggest frustrations with 40k atm: the approach to relics and warlord traits. I wish they weren’t tied to the CP system, as it means that many of them will never get used. There should be some way of allowing different power levels of relics and warlord traits to have a place.Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.
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2020-06-16, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2020-06-16, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
I honestly don't see the difference between what you're describing, and Kill Team. Even the basic edition - ignoring Commanders and Elites - had "Hero" units with unique skills not available to the rank-and-file.
I'm pretty sure that their first appearence was in Blood Angels 5th Edition Codex (April 2010). I remember the confusion-come-disbelief that occurred when they apparently arrived out of nowhere, and were then almost immediately forgotten because Furioso Dreadnoughts were also a Blood Angels thing, and generally just better.Last edited by Wraith; 2020-06-16 at 05:44 PM.
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RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2020-06-16, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
The new keywords are Scalable, Defensible and Hard Cover. Melee cover already is like whatever, since it doesnt work when you get charged, so those two others are meaningful? Escalable alone is weird, because the 8th rulebook already mentions going through windows and stuff. Fighting a guy on top of you while being in the floor level is indeed a game changer, but then it only affects multi-story ruins and buildings, which are the sole type that matters, just like 8th.
o it either didn't affect gameplay or required house ruling and strange terrain choices like ITC. Then, if you wanted something extra, you had optional add-ons that were non-intuitive to remember and didn't really add much: a narrative game might want to have some plasma conduits, but it's not really good as a basic part of the system.
Now, there are keywords that are consistent and (hopefully) simple in effect, each with a meaningful impact in the way you would expect terrain to have an impact
Like what? Obscuring is just the ITC angled walls in keyword form. Melee cover and 'cant melee one floor above' really make that huge of a difference for you?
instead the rules are much more physrep neutral and linked into stuff you expect terrain to do: disrupting movement or providing protection.
As you say, they can cut out a piece of paper if they really have to! This isn't a bad thing! Obviously, you wouldn’t want it in a tournament, but not every game is at a tournament. Thinking back to my very first games, I had pine cones painted green and placed on circles of paper to use as forests: in eighth, these wouldn't have done much beyond maybe giving a bit of cover. In ninth, they have a much more tangible effect that is customisable to the circumstances.
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2020-06-16, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Experience and advancement yeah, but also the wide open equipment system that comes together with the skills and advancement to almost make it a pseudo RPG. Which I honestly don't expect crusade to do.
I don't mean skirmish level. Basically what I'm picturing is you'd have your normal 40k army as is. Then you'd replace the warlord and a potentially a few other characters in it with customizable, advancement capable, heroes. With skills. Possibly crib off Necromunda, have a bunch of generic skills anyone can take. Then a set of faction skills to represent unique training.
The bulk of your army is static, like any normal 40k army. But the CHARACTERS advance, get injured, die. Etc. Obviously suffers from the same issue any growing narrative campaign does... but still seems fun.
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2020-06-16, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
It still will.
Then, if you wanted something extra, you had optional add-ons that were non-intuitive to remember
Now, there are keywords that are consistent and (hopefully) simple in effect
It's just that the only Terrain that matters is Ruins and Buildings, because of their ability to block LoS when constructed.
All's 9th Ed. is doing, is potentially giving all Terrain what makes Ruins and Buildings good - the ability to block LoS...But only if the terrain is tall, regardless of density.
Terrain has no other gameplay-value. It's all aesthetics. The issue in 8th Ed., is that aesthetically pleasing terrain (e.g; a Forest or Wood) doesn't have even close to the same game-effect that an ugly, square metal box has. If you don't care about aesthetics, because it's the game that matters...
This potentially is the scenario that LansXero is talking about.
The only thing that matters, is LoS. In that case, terrain is simply a piece of paper with a 5" pole on it. We've seen basically this at a few tournaments now. Terrain is expensive and the bottom tables get what they get.
Additionally, you can use whatever you want to represent the terrain, and agree with your opponent the rules in advance: great!
This is the problem. You have someone tell you the rules, and both of you follow the same rules.
The instant you let people make their own rules, nobody will agree on anything and chaos ensues as people join Factions and no-one can play with anyone outside their 'group'. (insert real world example).
as you say, they can cut out a piece of paper if they really have to! This isn't a bad thing!
In ninth, [pine cones] have a much more tangible effect that is customisable to the circumstances.
At the end of the day, do they block LoS? If they do, then that's the only tangible effect they'll have.
This is what 9th Ed. is doing.
All (good) Terrain is now a magic box. You can't see through it, but you can see in it. Aesthetics don't or wont change how your terrain plays.
A table of Ruins plays almost exactly the same as a table of Forests, because there's only one rule that matters - Obscuring.
You can now mix up your board again to be as pretty as you want (as long as most of it is 5" tall...That's still an infuriating stipulation).
9th Ed. wont be all Ruins, all the time. It'll be all Obscuring, all the time. Similar, but different.
Better? Absolutely...For hobby.
For gameplay almost nothing will change.
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2020-06-16, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
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2020-06-16, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
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2020-06-16, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XL: Bloated Rules
Cheesegear, are all the people you play with this toxic, to the point where they'll argue over terrain and factionalize instantly rather than just go "okay, cool"? Where they'll wheedle endlessly to get you to fight their min-maxed Crusade army and abuse power levels?
If so, how can I avoid these players?