How does one legally take down a noble?

[LibraryOgre]

The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne.

This is close to Stephen King's "Eyes of the Dragon", though their plot is more convoluted.

Spoiler: I mean, the book is 30+ years old

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So, Flagg, the BBEG, wants to throw the kingdom into turmoil by getting a bad king in there. He's stymied because the heir is a Good Kid, who will make Good Choices... including getting rid of Flagg. The king is old and doddering, and his second child is suitably malleable, so Flagg goes with this.

It is well known that Peter, the Good Kid, brings his father a glass of wine every night. Dutiful child, spent his own money for wine for his father. Flagg arranges to poison the king through that bottle of wine, then have the poison found in Peter's quarters. The king dies (horribly), and Peter is charged. Everyone assumes that Peter killed the king because he wanted to rule, and so the trial is a formality. Thomas becomes the evil king that Flagg wanted... for a few years, until Peter escapes and the whole plot goes to Hell in a handbasket for Flagg.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

As others have said, some old, obscure law - maybe the PCs need to go on a quest to find the written example with it in.

An alternative is an existing law that's been misunderstood over time so that the population think it means one thing, but it's actually something different.

Or maybe the target gets careless and breaks a minor law that allows the PCs to start to bring them down, or one of their aides does so and it's up to the PCs to exploit that.

If they need to die, and duels are allowed, then that's a possibility, as even if they're not to the death, accidents happen. Or maybe there's an accident with no survivors when they're on their way to somewhere.

Propaganda? Getting bards to pass on negative stories and rumours about the BBEG so that they start having to take time to look after their own domain and can't maintain their control. And potentially coupling it with economics, say hiring the BBEGs advisors and guards, buying important raw materials to diminish their military strength (and potentially the civilians as well so they lose tax revenue and start to alienate the population).

[HouseRules]

There's always the "right of conquest" by becoming a noble. Of course, this right is gone after WW2, but you're not in the modern world.

[Jay R]

The only way to legally take down a noble is "successfully". If the PCs fail, the king's justice will find them guilty of treason and have them put to death for it.

If they succeed, especially if they wind up rescuing the king from the advisor and get the king's approval after the fact, they will be cheered and exalted as the heroes who have saved the realm.

Go watch Gandalf vs. Theoden and Wormtongue, or Aladdin vs. Jafar, or the musketeers vs. the first minister Richelieu, or Leia's resistance vs. the empire, or pretty much any Zorro movie.

[aglondier]

Have a "noble" PC declare blood feud against the advisor, kill the advisor, then claim his holdings, titles and such by Right of Conquest.
Thats about as close to legal as you are going to get short of overthrowing the king and taking the throne by force of arms.

[Acidicdevildog]

You could have your PCs gain favor with various members of different associations within the city. Have them play politics and gain support for the king's son, from the guards, mages, clergy and other nobles of the city, even the thieves guild. It opens up various side quests for them. Before and after they deal with the situation. In history the rightful ruler was usually the one who had the more powerful allies maybe one of the city nobles who is supporting the advisor has greater aspirations for his family and has a daughter around the princes age? Bonds in blood are stronger than anything written and he may be persuaded to switch allegiance, depends what the prince is willing to do to save his people? With enough political allies they can persuade the court to remove the advisor. And remember laws are written by the rulers in history not the people, once the deed is done the new ruler can declare it legal. And if they are successful they may even pull it off without bloodshed (not likely with the groups I've played with but possible) failing that magic is good, have the party boost the mental state of the king, have a potion of clear thoughts that removes his debilitating effects, full on gandalf the situation and have the king deal with the advisor when he has his senses

[Vinyadan]

To be honest, it sounds like you solved the problem. If it had been the king who was turning evil, then in many countries he would have been above the law (with a few notable exceptions; there have been kings who were inferior to an assembly, or to religious figures).

But an advisor, a powerful courtesan, can be put to trial by the nobles. The legality of this is variable -- it can be an actual jury recognised by law or custom, or it can be a group of nobles who are not OK with the quantity of power the courtesan is wielding and simply cut him down. The killing of an adviser or favourite who was wielding disproportionate power because of his leverage on the king happened many times in history, and, after all, who's going to stop the nobles, if the king is out of commission? For them, it's all there -- a matter of envy, of money, of power, and of ensuring that the authority of their dynasty isn't curtailed by such figures.

[GeoffWatson]

The advisor isn't actually a noble, he's a spy pretending to be a noble.
Find proof he's a spy, or what happened to the real noble.
Bring the proof to the captain of the guards, or the noble assembly, or whatever, and have him arrested.


PS: You mean courtier, not courtesan.

[Mystral]

Alright, so the players (level 14, well known throughout the kingdom) have been sent to a nearby city where the king has suddenly begun sympathizing with the BBEG in order to dissuade them or at least discern their intentions in order to prevent a civil war. When they arrive they find that very few citizens are willing to speak of the city's political agenda, as those who do tend to disappear, and some rumors even say people are being replaced by doppelgangers. The guards advise the party that the king does not wish to speak with anyone, especially not outsiders, though they can speak with his advisor who sheds little light on the subject.
So what's really going on here? Well, the king is practically senile and just agrees with whatever his advisor suggests. Though his advisor was replaced by an expert spy working for the BBEG. The thing is, I have managed to make the advisor completely untouchable, legally that is. So, what I need to know is how could the players legally do something about this?
The only idea I currently have is perhaps they meet the king's son who suspects the advisor and offers a plot to assassinate the king, making it look like an accident or natural cause so that the son can then take the throne. Another idea I have is perhaps some sort of conspiracy against the conspiracy creator where the players can egg on several trusted guardsmen so some similar group close enough to the king/advisor to assassinate him all at once, like Caesar's assassination.

How about a duel. Make sure that you're either impersonating someone important or are someone important and then besmirch his honor in a way that he either falls out of all good social graces or has to face you in combat. Then make sure he doesn't survive that combat, even if it's a duel to first blood.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

How about a duel. Make sure that you're either impersonating someone important or are someone important and then besmirch his honor in a way that he either falls out of all good social graces or has to face you in combat. Then make sure he doesn't survive that combat, even if it's a duel to first blood.

Oops, how clumsy off me, I first blooded him straight off a cliff. And through the wall on top of the cliff. And through the door of the house the wall was a part of. After he already first blooded me. Three times.

I guess +4 warhammers aren't really the best dueling weapons are they?

[LibraryOgre]

Oops, how clumsy off me, I first blooded him straight off a cliff. And through the wall on top of the cliff. And through the door of the house the wall was a part of. After he already first blooded me. Three times.

I guess +4 warhammers aren't really the best dueling weapons are they?

Depends on your goals, I supposed. I mean, with the right accessories, you can yeet him straight out of the campaign...

[VonKaiserstein]

Ultimately, a king rules because the guard and the people allow him to- ditto for the laws. So there are rumors of people who speak out against the king being abducted and replaced, you say? Suborn the beggars. They are the cheapest to get a hold of, and begin spreading additional rumors that it is the king himself stalking the night and slaying the populace- for he has become a vampire! Have them report back anyone who beats them up, especially in public.

Discretely murder said person, making sure to drain all of their blood and leave them at the market nearest the palace. Make sure to also publicly chastise a few of the lesser incidents for being cruel to the poor. You know, to avoid suspicion.

Simultaneously begin boasting in every tavern with ale of your prowess at finding tricky undead, even those that pose as important people. You know, show some trophies, demonstrate the proper way to stake a vampire on a thoroughly bewildered serving girl, etc. Play on your reputation and specifically make it sound as if you are experts at tracking down difficult to detect undead.

It may take a few weeks, and a few bodies, but eventually you'll be able to meet the king in person to verify he is not in fact a vampire. A few questions about who he trusts, and you turn on the advisor. Cast an illusion of some sort to make him look pale, then stake and incinerate the hapless vampire, neatly closing your plot.

Or, if it all goes nuts, being run out town by the guard and leaving behind a kingdom so riddled with internal strife and suspicion that it is incapable of action. If you use some foreign visitors as your vampire victims, it'll even ruin the kingdom's reputation abroad.

[Dr paradox]

The advisor isn't actually a noble, he's a spy pretending to be a noble.
Find proof he's a spy, or what happened to the real noble.
Bring the proof to the captain of the guards, or the noble assembly, or whatever, and have him arrested.

That's probably the most straightforward approach. Rumor has it that a traveler was in town last week, a cousin to the advisor and member of the same noble family. He voiced a concern about how hard it was proving to even lay eyes on his cousin, given how close they once were.

Shortly thereafter, he was vanished. Track down the kidnappers (not proper guards, for fear of what they could learn) and rescue the noble from his interrogation. He can prove that his cousin was murdered and replaced.

That's the tricky thing about "advisor" as a position. He has his position strictly at the pleasure of the king, and since he wields little formal power, he's subject to fewer oversights from the noble class than a Duke or a Marshal. The only alternative to proving him a murderer, imposter, or criminal might be appealing to an alternate power structure: the Church would be a handy ally to have here, since the Bishops (or equivalent) are the only folk who can voice their displeasure while enjoying a modicum of protection.

PS: You mean courtier, not courtesan.

I knew something was bothering me about that word!

[Thayborne]

..... how could the players legally do something about this? Are you the DM? This problem is what the Players are supposed solve. Time to try a lot of Divination Enchantment and Illusion spells. Do not forget Simulacrum.