A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[Rydiro]

The drow were bodies for her war machine and that's it. The dream talk with Archer (actually Sve Noc) where she discusses having the Drow settle Ketaran land? That is done after she has been stripped of the Fae title and had a forced reckoning with her past actions.

Compare her perspective of the Drow then to how she views the same people as First Under Night. People feel like Cat is being influenced by the Sisters to think more favourably about the drow, but I think it's just that she views them as an actual people now, rather than a pile of bodies.

Yep, thats a totally spot-on crticism of cat. I actually found sve-noc agreeing to cats deal jarring for this reason. All she ever did in the underdark was throwing drow into her war-machine. Granted, she treated civilians reasonably well. But did anyone there mean anything to her? No.

[Mith]

Yep, thats a totally spot-on crticism of cat. I actually found sve-noc agreeing to cats deal jarring for this reason. All she ever did in the underdark was throwing drow into her war-machine. Granted, she treated civilians reasonably well. But did anyone there mean anything to her? No.

This is why I think Book 4 needs refinement. If you had Cat do some of the groundwork of an actual plan (even just using the Drow as a bottle stop on Keter) on page before hand, along with actual grappling with theses issues (even if she makes the same choices in the end), you can get Cat to the point where the parallels between her and the Sisters are more comparable as "stewards of the Firstborn". Combine that with the crab in the bucket speech and a refined soul search at the end, Cat's bargain sticks because she is the most knowlegable herald the Sisters have for carving a new path for the Drow.

[Forum Explorer]

This is why I think Book 4 needs refinement. If you had Cat do some of the groundwork of an actual plan (even just using the Drow as a bottle stop on Keter) on page before hand, along with actual grappling with theses issues (even if she makes the same choices in the end), you can get Cat to the point where the parallels between her and the Sisters are more comparable as "stewards of the Firstborn". Combine that with the crab in the bucket speech and a refined soul search at the end, Cat's bargain sticks because she is the most knowlegable herald the Sisters have for carving a new path for the Drow.

That or make it more obvious that being away from Callow, and the other more moral members of the Woe, as well as using more of her power was increasing her alienation.

Because as a Queen of Winter, none of her actions seemed very odd. A ruthless bargain that sees her new minions used as tools? That is 100% a Winter sort of thing.

[Mith]

That or make it more obvious that being away from Callow, and the other more moral members of the Woe, as well as using more of her power was increasing her alienation.

Because as a Queen of Winter, none of her actions seemed very odd. A ruthless bargain that sees her new minions used as tools? That is 100% a Winter sort of thing.

There is elements of that when she bargains with Ivah, but I think a more gradual approach would of worked better. Even to go so far as to have her notice the boundaries of Callow in some metaphysical form during the crusade attempt to have a comparisin point for when she is not in Callow.

[Tvtyrant]

I recently got into MOBAs again (Heroes of the Storm with a friend) and I realized that the Heroes and Villains in this fit into the MOBA archetypes much better than they do traditional fantasy. I'm sure they are meant to be more like Heroes of Might and Magic, but the powers including them getting Aspects that are sufficiently like Ultimates are very close.

[Rynjin]

I recently got into MOBAs again (Heroes of the Storm with a friend)

Ah, I see, you're one of the 6 other people who still plays the game along with me and my friends.

[Tvtyrant]

Ah, I see, you're one of the 6 other people who still plays the game along with me and my friends.

Pretty much, except I only started playing it a month ago I was looking for an alternative to LoL and it was free, plus I'm a SC player.

Is there a reason it died?

[Rynjin]

Pretty much, except I only started playing it a month ago I was looking for an alternative to LoL and it was free, plus I'm a SC player.

Is there a reason it died?

Activision killed it, basically. The HotS team really likes working on it, but orders from higher up killed the budding esports scene a couple of years ago (like...really unexpectedly; the actual league players didn't learn about it until the general announcement was made like a month before the new season started) and the update cycle was slowed. Guess it just wasn't making enough money.

It's still the only MOBA I actually like though, so I keep playing it when I can get at least one other person to queue up Unranked with me.

[Tvtyrant]

Activision killed it, basically. The HotS team really likes working on it, but orders from higher up killed the budding esports scene a couple of years ago (like...really unexpectedly; the actual league players didn't learn about it until the general announcement was made like a month before the new season started) and the update cycle was slowed. Guess it just wasn't making enough money.

It's still the only MOBA I actually like though, so I keep playing it when I can get at least one other person to queue up Unranked with me.

In other words, part of Activisions' drive to kill off Blizzard.

I like it for the same reason most of my friends don't. Slower movement and lower dps to hp ratio. Less instant death, more chance of peels saving you. Also the maps are better IMO. ARAM for HotS is really weird though, like a big mosh pit instead of snowball fights.

New Chapter:

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Basically just a breakdown of how cool Cat's team is and the preparations they are making for the battle. Akua's is the one that will work because we don't know what it is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

New Chapter:

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Basically just a breakdown of how cool Cat's team is and the preparations they are making for the battle. Akua's is the one that will work because we don't know what it is.

I'd imagine they will all work, after a fashion. Akua's likely to be the decisive one that doesn't get countered, but the battles tend to be heavy on the "10k undead destroyed with attack (a), the dead king counters with 20k more, who are destroyed by attack (b), then counters with 30k more, who are finally routed with attack (c)"

In fact, I'd even expect them in the order exposited:

Spoiler: spoilers

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first Broken Bells, then hasty fortifications & goblin weapons, then thunderbolts and lightning (very, very frightening), then Akua's song.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

I'd imagine they will all work, after a fashion. Akua's likely to be the decisive one that doesn't get countered, but the battles tend to be heavy on the "10k undead destroyed with attack (a), the dead king counters with 20k more, who are destroyed by attack (b), then counters with 30k more, who are finally routed with attack (c)"

In fact, I'd even expect them in the order exposited:

Spoiler: spoilers

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first Broken Bells, then hasty fortifications & goblin weapons, then thunderbolts and lightning (very, very frightening), then Akua's song.

Grey Wolf

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Yeah that seems likely. Akua's song will be the counter attack when they have something go terribly wrong, and then Cat will intercede personally at some point. Probably when the Grey Legion and the Prince of Bones show up "suddenly."

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: concerning

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I'm a bit concerned with if Zeze succeeds. When a Choir is interested in your work and wants to see if its possible, there's nothing but trouble there. And considering WHO Zeze is, them paying attention to the attempt can't be anything other than Above pulling one over Below without effort. I like it from a story stand point, but I agree with Cat on this: if it works, there's no way the Choir isn't going to pass that along to every single Hero it can. That's a MASSIVE swing in power, and I don't think Below has anything that can rival that outside the Dead King. Its a different kind of arms race, where your opponent hands you their nuke and you mass produce it knowing full well your opponent has zero means of doing such.

[Mith]

Spoiler: concerning

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I'm a bit concerned with if Zeze succeeds. When a Choir is interested in your work and wants to see if its possible, there's nothing but trouble there. And considering WHO Zeze is, them paying attention to the attempt can't be anything other than Above pulling one over Below without effort. I like it from a story stand point, but I agree with Cat on this: if it works, there's no way the Choir isn't going to pass that along to every single Hero it can. That's a MASSIVE swing in power, and I don't think Below has anything that can rival that outside the Dead King. Its a different kind of arms race, where your opponent hands you their nuke and you mass produce it knowing full well your opponent has zero means of doing such.

I think what would make the difference is that the Accords will kill the tactical nuke squad fairly well. There is a statement that Light works by conviction, so if you have a Hero with the conviction to smite people, you will either have a greater support for the Accords, or a Heros that gets overwhelmed and butchered by Cardinal decree as a violation of the Articles of Strife.

Outside of the Articles of Strife, I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things. What I would find funny is if the next time Zeze is refining this technique, he has Andronike sitting on his shoulder chatting away. Zeze is just happy to talk away and refine his project, oblivious to the politics around him.

[HolyDraconus]

I think what would make the difference is that the Accords will kill the tactical nuke squad fairly well. There is a statement that Light works by conviction, so if you have a Hero with the conviction to smite people, you will either have a greater support for the Accords, or a Heros that gets overwhelmed and butchered by Cardinal decree as a violation of the Articles of Strife.

Outside of the Articles of Strife, I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things. What I would find funny is if the next time Zeze is refining this technique, he has Andronike sitting on his shoulder chatting away. Zeze is just happy to talk away and refine his project, oblivious to the politics around him.

The Accords aren't a thing yet, and one of the Champions of Above that gave it some legitimacy is having moral doubts about it. In order for there NOT to be a shift, the Accords NEED to come out of this. But I just don't see it yet.

[Mith]

The Accords aren't a thing yet, and one of the Champions of Above that gave it some legitimacy is having moral doubts about it. In order for there NOT to be a shift, the Accords NEED to come out of this. But I just don't see it yet.

Fair point. I was thinking if the Accords themselves were in place this would probably self select out, but that still lesves that "if".

The other problem is that Zeze is so far above other mages for skill that it's hard to know if Below could counter with a learned weapon like this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Fair point. I was thinking if the Accords themselves were in place this would probably self select out, but that still lesves that "if".

The other problem is that Zeze is so far above other mages for skill that it's hard to know if Below could counter with a learned weapon like this.

The Dead King is going to figure out how to counter it in the next day or so. Now, it could be that the means he uses to counter it are unavailable to anyone else from Below but, given that the dead king's methods are so reproducible they currently are the basis for the approach to magic manipulation of practically all cultures, I'd imagine it'll turn out to be very reproducible by above, below, and everything in between, if that is what the author needs to happen. And given I'm not getting vibes of "this is the story of how Cat ended the war between Above and Below by giving Above the Ultimate Weapon", that seems likely to be the case.

Or it could turn out to be very niche, or so absurdly destructive the Above heroes won't use it, or any other reason why this development does not spell the End.

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

The Dead King is going to figure out how to counter it in the next day or so. Now, it could be that the means he uses to counter it are unavailable to anyone else from Below but, given that the dead king's methods are so reproducible they currently are the basis for the approach to magic manipulation of practically all cultures, I'd imagine it'll turn out to be very reproducible by above, below, and everything in between, if that is what the author needs to happen. And given I'm not getting vibes of "this is the story of how Cat ended the war between Above and Below by giving Above the Ultimate Weapon", that seems likely to be the case.

Or it could turn out to be very niche, or so absurdly destructive the Above heroes won't use it, or any other reason why this development does not spell the End.

Grey Wolf

I figured this had a different purpose than above vs below. We just got a talk about how if one side opens up with overwhelming force the other side will get a balancing ability. If they get a repeating Smite bomb than the KotD can use his Arsenal without fear of further escalation. Superweapons are a liability is one of the core conceits of the setting.

[tyckspoon]

The Dead King is going to figure out how to counter it in the next day or so. Now, it could be that the means he uses to counter it are unavailable to anyone else from Below but, given that the dead king's methods are so reproducible they currently are the basis for the approach to magic manipulation of practically all cultures, I'd imagine it'll turn out to be very reproducible by above, below, and everything in between, if that is what the author needs to happen. And given I'm not getting vibes of "this is the story of how Cat ended the war between Above and Below by giving Above the Ultimate Weapon", that seems likely to be the case.

Grey Wolf

The Dead King's magical theories are primarily used by Praes (and by extension the Grand Alliance, as most of their battlemagic doctrine is rooted in the Praes College of War and most of their notable magical theorists prefer to work in Trismegistan theory.) We have had several mentions of other magic styles that are commonly used in other areas, usually by way of Masego mentioning how they're inferior to Praesi study, but there are occasionally benefits to the other styles; the one that usually comes up is that many of the other schools of magical study are better at handling changing situations or fuzzy logic. Trismegistan formulas achieve their efficiencies largely by being very very focused and refined to achieve the one particular thing and run into problems when trying to apply them outside of their optimized conditions (and practically don't work on water at all) - part of Masego's genius is his ability to rewrite and modify on the fly to make the spell formulas he already knows better optimized to the specific situation.

I want to say Ashur has a notable magical tradition (mentioned when Warlock died when their navy pointed a god at the city he was trying to defend), there's the Gigantes who do something that appears to be completely different to what the rest of Calernia learns as magic.. Procer doesn't encourage magical studies and probably doesn't even *have* a unified magical tradition as such, more a bunch of individual magically-inclined Names and more ordinary talents that just learned whatever they could.. I'm sure the Elves don't use Dead King's studies as the root of their magic, although we haven't had any deep look into whatever they do use.

If they get a repeating Smite bomb than the KotD can use his Arsenal without fear of further escalation. Superweapons are a liability is one of the core conceits of the setting.

Possibly this will actually turn out to be the counter to Keter upping the ante on releasing some of their real monsters? What if the pseudo-smite is close enough to the properties of real Light to be able to destroy demons, leaving the Grand Alliance less reliant on the subset of heroes that is blessed with that particular ability (and also good enough fighters to not get killed and/or corrupted while trying to fight a demon..)

[Tvtyrant]

Possibly this will actually turn out to be the counter to Keter upping the ante on releasing some of their real monsters? What if the pseudo-smite is close enough to the properties of real Light to be able to destroy demons, leaving the Grand Alliance less reliant on the subset of heroes that is blessed with that particular ability (and also good enough fighters to not get killed and/or corrupted while trying to fight a demon..)

Adding an even more meta approach.

"Cat we discovered a new formula to do X"

"Ah this means a new weapon is about to be springed on us by the KotD. Good job researchers!"

[Rynjin]

so absurdly destructive the Above heroes won't use it, or any other reason why this development does not spell the End.

Yeah...I'm pretty sure this caveat will never come into play. We've seen multiple times that a trait both heroes AND villains share is that mo weapon is "too destructive". No Kill Like Overkill may as well be the motto of all Named. What Contrition was planning to do to Liesse is no less destructive or horrifying than what Akua eventually DID do to them, and at the point you're dropping magical nukes like that there's pretty much no universal moral or practical limit as to what kind of destruction you're willing to unleash.

[HolyDraconus]

The Dead King is going to figure out how to counter it in the next day or so. Now, it could be that the means he uses to counter it are unavailable to anyone else from Below but, given that the dead king's methods are so reproducible they currently are the basis for the approach to magic manipulation of practically all cultures, I'd imagine it'll turn out to be very reproducible by above, below, and everything in between, if that is what the author needs to happen. And given I'm not getting vibes of "this is the story of how Cat ended the war between Above and Below by giving Above the Ultimate Weapon", that seems likely to be the case.

Or it could turn out to be very niche, or so absurdly destructive the Above heroes won't use it, or any other reason why this development does not spell the End.

Grey Wolf

Above's Heroes have been more or less portrayed as willing to do whatever they feel is needed, for what they perceive as the Greater Good. And that is embodied in the Grey Pilgrim. Cutting a man's soul out of his body, regardless of WHAT crimes he may have done, does not strike me as a Good Act, but Above allowed it. Creating a magical plague killing innocents to capture said man isn't a Good Act, but it was done as well. And Mirror Knight was working himself up to killing the White Knight for the Greater Good till that narrative was flipped. Being handed a Smite Bomb that can be absurdly powerful will NOT stop Heroes from using it if they can justify it as the Greater Good. The only thing that will stop them from using it, is to be unable to use it at all, which can only happen if Zeze fails in making it.
They're in a "today's problems need to be dealt with today" kind of situation. The Smite Bomb is a future problem.

[Rydiro]

Above's Heroes have been more or less portrayed as willing to do whatever they feel is needed, for what they perceive as the Greater Good. And that is embodied in the Grey Pilgrim. Cutting a man's soul out of his body, regardless of WHAT crimes he may have done, does not strike me as a Good Act, but Above allowed it. Creating a magical plague killing innocents to capture said man isn't a Good Act, but it was done as well. And Mirror Knight was working himself up to killing the White Knight for the Greater Good till that narrative was flipped. Being handed a Smite Bomb that can be absurdly powerful will NOT stop Heroes from using it if they can justify it as the Greater Good. The only thing that will stop them from using it, is to be unable to use it at all, which can only happen if Zeze fails in making it.
They're in a "today's problems need to be dealt with today" kind of situation. The Smite Bomb is a future problem.

I'd guess the advantage of smite will be smart tageting. Thus, it will be decidedly not a nuke but a smart bomb. Which would be allowed under the accords and all the more powerful for its precision. Why kill the army of praes if you can just smite the Tyrant?

[Forum Explorer]

The new chapter has a new tagline quote that's on my list of things to one day say.

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it seemed like my seasoned pessimism had come all the way around and somehow become a different kind of naïve optimism.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: well ..fun time to be had

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The smite bomb works. The Sisters being concerned caught me tho, and reinforced what i believe about it. It feels like Cat will lose her Night before gaining her name, or it might be like how she made a domain from her name that used Winter. I dont know why that thought struck me but it makes sense i feel.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: well ..fun time to be had

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The smite bomb works. The Sisters being concerned caught me tho, and reinforced what i believe about it. It feels like Cat will lose her Night before gaining her name, or it might be like how she made a domain from her name that used Winter. I dont know why that thought struck me but it makes sense i feel.

Spoiler: Hmmm

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Interesting idea. I don't really see why they would cut Cat off. For a long time I suspected they would make Akua First under the Night and rescue her from Cat, giving Akua the chance to choose redemption instead of being forced into it. They haven't really poked that direction though.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: Hmmm

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Interesting idea. I don't really see why they would cut Cat off. For a long time I suspected they would make Akua First under the Night and rescue her from Cat, giving Akua the chance to choose redemption instead of being forced into it. They haven't really poked that direction though.

Spoiler: My thoughts, mind you

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Its less about cutting her off, and more about her believing she served her purpose with them and leaves on her own. It would be a mark of growth cause its her leaving the only thing that would give her ANY leg to stand on, in this super powered war that she's fighting in. As for the Folly, I'm fairly certain the closest she's ever going to get to such a thing isn't with the Night. The only roads I see open to her is shackled for all eternity unless someone later down the road destroy her, or obliteration. She's done too much in Cat's eyes to ever pay it off, and letting her go with the Night will be seen as getting off scott free, since their whole motto can justify what she did, if twisted enough. I wouldn't be surprised even that if she TRIED to go to the Night, it will swallow her, or Vivien somehow finds out and attempts to reclaim her or have the dark elves destroyed. There's no Good or Neutral Ending for Akua, only Bad.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: My thoughts, mind you

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Its less about cutting her off, and more about her believing she served her purpose with them and leaves on her own. It would be a mark of growth cause its her leaving the only thing that would give her ANY leg to stand on, in this super powered war that she's fighting in. As for the Folly, I'm fairly certain the closest she's ever going to get to such a thing isn't with the Night. The only roads I see open to her is shackled for all eternity unless someone later down the road destroy her, or obliteration. She's done too much in Cat's eyes to ever pay it off, and letting her go with the Night will be seen as getting off scott free, since their whole motto can justify what she did, if twisted enough. I wouldn't be surprised even that if she TRIED to go to the Night, it will swallow her, or Vivien somehow finds out and attempts to reclaim her or have the dark elves destroyed. There's no Good or Neutral Ending for Akua, only Bad.

Spoiler: On Cat and Akua

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Akua's fate is going to be awful, sure, but it's only meaningful if she chooses for it to be awful. The Sister's committed worse atrocities than she did and were rewarded with Godhood, as did the KotD.

If it's just blindly punishing Akua than it has no value for the story. The whole point of Akua is she is smart enough to come to realize that she was wrong, and then the horror of what she did becomes manifest to her.

It's very much like the Queens in Enders Game realizing humans are all people while their workers are appendages, so the millions they killed were a true atrocity. To Akua only people with Power are people, but she is slowly beginning to become aware that the weak are people too.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: On Cat and Akua

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Akua's fate is going to be awful, sure, but it's only meaningful if she chooses for it to be awful. The Sister's committed worse atrocities than she did and were rewarded with Godhood, as did the KotD.

If it's just blindly punishing Akua than it has no value for the story. The whole point of Akua is she is smart enough to come to realize that she was wrong, and then the horror of what she did becomes manifest to her.

It's very much like the Queens in Enders Game realizing humans are all people while their workers are appendages, so the millions they killed were a true atrocity. To Akua only people with Power are people, but she is slowly beginning to become aware that the weak are people too.

Spoiler: Continuing

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I actually gotta disagree. The Sister's did Bad, but they ultimately did it for a reason that could be twisted to be considered Noble. KotD is just a massive walking bundle of Evil, and I'm honestly surprised that Below doesn't outright champion it. He's been the biggest threat to Above for decades, and is smart enough to KNOW that, and act accordingly. He's still fighting this war with armies when its a forgone fact that he has nukes, as it were. Sure, if he releases those nukes Above will be allowed to gift its champions with nukes of their own, and I'm a bit worried that Zeze gave Above another kind of nuke, but its not going to be until AFTER he's fielded those nukes. And there's no guarantee that there will be anything left once that happen. It wouldn't surprise me at all that he's fielding his armies in a way that a nuke will completely finish the fight. Cause it doesn't matter how many nukes you haven't fired if you are too dead to use them.

As for Akua. Meh. I honestly have the feeling that this whole series was written by her as she maintains the records of what led her to be the Head Ghost of Hogwa... excuse me, her neutral zone for budding Heroes and Villains.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Continuing

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I actually gotta disagree. The Sister's did Bad, but they ultimately did it for a reason that could be twisted to be considered Noble. KotD is just a massive walking bundle of Evil, and I'm honestly surprised that Below doesn't outright champion it. He's been the biggest threat to Above for decades, and is smart enough to KNOW that, and act accordingly. He's still fighting this war with armies when its a forgone fact that he has nukes, as it were. Sure, if he releases those nukes Above will be allowed to gift its champions with nukes of their own, and I'm a bit worried that Zeze gave Above another kind of nuke, but its not going to be until AFTER he's fielded those nukes. And there's no guarantee that there will be anything left once that happen. It wouldn't surprise me at all that he's fielding his armies in a way that a nuke will completely finish the fight. Cause it doesn't matter how many nukes you haven't fired if you are too dead to use them.

As for Akua. Meh. I honestly have the feeling that this whole series was written by her as she maintains the records of what led her to be the Head Ghost of Hogwa... excuse me, her neutral zone for budding Heroes and Villains.

Spoiler: Onward!

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Yeah but that wouldn't be a punishment for her. That's the thing, Akua can't be punished by making her a ghost because it fits with her vision of herself Sticking her in the Mantle forever just makes her the equivalent of Rita Repulsa, sealed evil in a can to be let out later.

But if she is actually redeemed she is effectively tortured beyond anything you could do to her. She will torture herself for eternity. But for that to work she has to have the choice to be free of punishment and then embrace it herself.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: 68: Opposition

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Gotta admit I was kind of expecting Masego's smiting spell to be .. bigger? Smashing a few hundred basic undead per cast is nice (plus however many got destroyed or damaged by the collateral effects) but I feel like it was hyped more than that; was expecting it would be unveiled against a big construct or a Revenant they didn't have an answer for or something so we'd have a better gauge of how much power was behind it.


..also 'This makeshift army doesn't have good air cover' seems like something Cat should have tried to take advantage of before now? Like even if it's just sending people out on Summoner's creations or with flight spells or something to try and snipe out Binds.