A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: 68: Opposition

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Gotta admit I was kind of expecting Masego's smiting spell to be .. bigger? Smashing a few hundred basic undead per cast is nice (plus however many got destroyed or damaged by the collateral effects) but I feel like it was hyped more than that; was expecting it would be unveiled against a big construct or a Revenant they didn't have an answer for or something so we'd have a better gauge of how much power was behind it.


..also 'This makeshift army doesn't have good air cover' seems like something Cat should have tried to take advantage of before now? Like even if it's just sending people out on Summoner's creations or with flight spells or something to try and snipe out Binds.

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It's also long range and very high heat. If it baked the mud that's thousands of degrees, it likely cooks just about anything. More like having a big laser.

Range I imagine is the issue. Aside from Archer most things happen pretty close range, ballista maxed out at maybe a mile and they outrange mages in setting.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: 68: Opposition

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Gotta admit I was kind of expecting Masego's smiting spell to be .. bigger? Smashing a few hundred basic undead per cast is nice (plus however many got destroyed or damaged by the collateral effects) but I feel like it was hyped more than that; was expecting it would be unveiled against a big construct or a Revenant they didn't have an answer for or something so we'd have a better gauge of how much power was behind it.


..also 'This makeshift army doesn't have good air cover' seems like something Cat should have tried to take advantage of before now? Like even if it's just sending people out on Summoner's creations or with flight spells or something to try and snipe out Binds.

Spoiler: 68

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Agreed, a couple hundred undead per cast seems to be pretty low powered for how difficult it is to use. I'm pretty sure Cat's first lake drop did a lot more than that.

I don't think they have flight spells else they wouldn't be needing to use Summoner. As is though, I think it's more that Cat expects that abusing the lack of air cover will than get air cover sent in, so she didn't play that card until she needed it.

[Mith]

So I have been reading parts of the series as they come up as interesting stories (mostly within Book 5), and one thing that comes up post Doom of Liesse is the fact that Akua's Folly is the greateest of Cat's failures.

I get that Cat would feel responsible for the fact that she could not protect Callow, but is there anything within the story that says "Cat made a tactical error" as opposed to just being a person stuck to far down the totem pole to actually affect change?

- Akua's project was bankrolled and secretly sponsered by Cordelia and Malicia long before Cat ever became Squire.
- Akua was granted governess of Liesse by Malicia even against Cat's recommendations.
- Cat had to deal with Marchford and then the Fae incursion, which meant that she wasn't in position to do anything about Akua. Yes she describes letting her sit and build, but I fail to see where Cat would have had the resources to interfere on top of everything else.

[HolyDraconus]

So I have been reading parts of the series as they come up as interesting stories (mostly within Book 5), and one thing that comes up post Doom of Liesse is the fact that Akua's Folly is the greateest of Cat's failures.

I get that Cat would feel responsible for the fact that she could not protect Callow, but is there anything within the story that says "Cat made a tactical error" as opposed to just being a person stuck to far down the totem pole to actually affect change?

- Akua's project was bankrolled and secretly sponsered by Cordelia and Malicia long before Cat ever became Squire.
- Akua was granted governess of Liesse by Malicia even against Cat's recommendations.
- Cat had to deal with Marchford and then the Fae incursion, which meant that she wasn't in position to do anything about Akua. Yes she describes letting her sit and build, but I fail to see where Cat would have had the resources to interfere on top of everything else.

I always assumed it was less about the past and more about her future. Akua did some terrible things that honestly Cat had no way of preventing in some cases, but as was admitted by her and Akua as well as the Woe in one shape or another, Akua could of well been one of them had things played out slightly differently. And considering that all the Woe does is endorse by Cat, it speaks volumes about the kind of things Cat would allow. Her heritage screams that such an act shall never be permitted, yet every moment Akua exists without punishment is another second of her permitting it. While its not likely true, thats my take on it.

[Mith]

I always assumed it was less about the past and more about her future. Akua did some terrible things that honestly Cat had no way of preventing in some cases, but as was admitted by her and Akua as well as the Woe in one shape or another, Akua could of well been one of them had things played out slightly differently. And considering that all the Woe does is endorse by Cat, it speaks volumes about the kind of things Cat would allow. Her heritage screams that such an act shall never be permitted, yet every moment Akua exists without punishment is another second of her permitting it. While its not likely true, thats my take on it.

That does make sense, but I also think the shape of Cat's long price more than makes the difference. She recognised at the beginning that destroying Akua at the beginning is just breaking a tool, not an actual person. Of course the issue being that one can come to value the person that one has encouraged and supported.

[Forum Explorer]

So I have been reading parts of the series as they come up as interesting stories (mostly within Book 5), and one thing that comes up post Doom of Liesse is the fact that Akua's Folly is the greateest of Cat's failures.

I get that Cat would feel responsible for the fact that she could not protect Callow, but is there anything within the story that says "Cat made a tactical error" as opposed to just being a person stuck to far down the totem pole to actually affect change?

- Akua's project was bankrolled and secretly sponsered by Cordelia and Malicia long before Cat ever became Squire.
- Akua was granted governess of Liesse by Malicia even against Cat's recommendations.
- Cat had to deal with Marchford and then the Fae incursion, which meant that she wasn't in position to do anything about Akua. Yes she describes letting her sit and build, but I fail to see where Cat would have had the resources to interfere on top of everything else.

She knew Akua was awful and going to cause problems, and she was still caught off guard by Akua's actions. In her mind, her failure was half-***ing it. She should've moved to have Akura assassinated immediately instead of waiting for an excuse.

[Mith]

She knew Akua was awful and going to cause problems, and she was still caught off guard by Akua's actions. In her mind, her failure was half-***ing it. She should've moved to have Akura assassinated immediately instead of waiting for an excuse.

That is also a good point.

This implies that she could have done so especially in the light of the fact that she was backed by Malicia as well along with Akua's own security, and that retaliation would not also been equally brutal.

To be clear, I am not disregarding survivor's guilt, but just wanting to see if there was any strategical error that Cat missed outside of 20/20 hindsight.

[Forum Explorer]

That is also a good point.

This implies that she could have done so especially in the light of the fact that she was backed by Malicia as well along with Akua's own security, and that retaliation would not also been equally brutal.

To be clear, I am not disregarding survivor's guilt, but just wanting to see if there was any strategical error that Cat missed outside of 20/20 hindsight.

If she had pulled it off, it would've been fine. She was not without resources of her own having effective control over Callow at the time, but she also could've talked to Black about it who would've supported her and likely approved of her preemptively removing a threat on Akua's level.

While Malicia might have thrown obstacles in Cat's way, I don't think she would've outright stopped her.

[Mith]

I was thinking more of retaliation for failed attempts.

Looking back, I think the issue I was having is that I am feeling that the span of time between the end of the rebellion and the start of the Arcadian campaign was too short to be sufficient, but that may not actually have been the case.

[Forum Explorer]

I was thinking more of retaliation for failed attempts.

Looking back, I think the issue I was having is that I am feeling that the span of time between the end of the rebellion and the start of the Arcadian campaign was too short to be sufficient, but that may not actually have been the case.

Oh yeah, failure would be punished severely, and might even end up in Cat dying or losing all her power if the attempt can be traced back to her. Or at least sufficiently proven to be her. But what else is new?

I'm not actually too sure on the timeline there myself.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

There's also the fact that Cat endorsed Akua's bid for control of Liesse in the first place, in exchange for help getting off the angel's corpse/church.

She did everything short of labelling the endorsement with "this is sarcasm" to make clear that she didn't honestly believe Akua should be put in charge of the city, but at the end of the day, Akua gained control of Liesse literally with Cat's stamp of approval.

And honestly, Cat probably could have gotten off of that island without her help. Masego or the Warlock would have eventually found her and gotten her back to the real world. She accepted Akua's help and spared her life out of expedience and confidence she could game the system sufficiently to mitigate the threat Akua posed. It was a reasonable choice at the time, but it did ultimately directly lead to the Doom of Liesse.

[uncool]

She did everything short of labelling the endorsement with "this is sarcasm" to make clear that she didn't honestly believe Akua should be put in charge of the city

As far as Praesi politics go, that's a full-throated endorsement. "I just coerced someone with the clear full support of one of the Calamities - someone who bullied an angel - into unwillingly endorsing me. I have that kind of firepower." Undermined a bit by being beaten within an inch of her life, of course, but it's still true.

[Mith]

There's also the fact that Cat endorsed Akua's bid for control of Liesse in the first place, in exchange for help getting off the angel's corpse/church.

She did everything short of labelling the endorsement with "this is sarcasm" to make clear that she didn't honestly believe Akua should be put in charge of the city, but at the end of the day, Akua gained control of Liesse literally with Cat's stamp of approval.

And honestly, Cat probably could have gotten off of that island without her help. Masego or the Warlock would have eventually found her and gotten her back to the real world. She accepted Akua's help and spared her life out of expedience and confidence she could game the system sufficiently to mitigate the threat Akua posed. It was a reasonable choice at the time, but it did ultimately directly lead to the Doom of Liesse.

Also good points. Not sure if she could have gotten off scot free after wrsngling a ressurection from Contrition. The found just in time seems to be a more Heroic slant.

Of course looking at the end of the Everdark, that would have been the time to have the sit down and talk, but it's hard to try a compromising talk from being in a position of power over a part of the system for the first time in a quest to have power over a system.

Thanks for all the clarifying details everyone.

[Tvtyrant]

New chapter is up.

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Nothing really surprising here except Hune using Ogre magic on a revenant.

[Mith]

New chapter is up.

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Nothing really surprising here except Hune using Ogre magic on a revenant.

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I think it's less Ogre magic and more that they are devout followers of Below so are able to call in their dues.

[HolyDraconus]

New chapter is up.

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Nothing really surprising here except Hune using Ogre magic on a revenant.

Spoiler: hmm

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Did you not get the meaning behind Akua's song? She's picking up speed up the otherside of that mountain. Though Hune's death is going to be impactful after this. Cat KNOWS the poison was geared towards her attempts at healing and admits she killed Hune. The battle may have occupied her mind, but now that its over, she's going to have a lot eating her.

[The Glyphstone]

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I think it's less Ogre magic and more that they are devout followers of Below so are able to call in their dues.

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What chapter was Hune shown worshipping in? I remember reading it, and vaguely got the impression Ogres worshiped differently than other races.

[Mith]

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What chapter was Hune shown worshipping in? I remember reading it, and vaguely got the impression Ogres worshiped differently than other races.

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Considering the descriptions from Hanno's origin story, I don't think it is significantly different of other Below worship. Hanno's mother breaking the tablet was more a declaration; her death was what sealed the bargain.

It might be that there are some other cultural practises that are different, but Hune was the only one we actually see.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did you not get the meaning behind Akua's song? She's picking up speed up the otherside of that mountain.

I'm going to be honest: no, I don't get the meaning of Akua's song (other than a more melancholic version of Monthy Python's "I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, You're going back to nothing, What have you lost? Nothing") coupled with "you might as well go all out" (rather than give the audience a grin).

And unfortunately, I'm not sure I follow your explanation? What mountain? And what do the two sides represent?

Sorry if I'm being dense. I've never been a fan of exposition through a song. My eyes just slide past them.

Grey Wolf

[HolyDraconus]

I'm going to be honest: no, I don't get the meaning of Akua's song (other than a more melancholic version of Monthy Python's "I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, You're going back to nothing, What have you lost? Nothing") coupled with "you might as well go all out" (rather than give the audience a grin).

And unfortunately, I'm not sure I follow your explanation? What mountain? And what do the two sides represent?

Sorry if I'm being dense. I've never been a fan of exposition through a song. My eyes just slide past them.

Grey Wolf

Its cool Mr. Wolf. I will start with this is my opinion though, cause im not the author and its how it came off to me.

I believe that she's singing about how life just sucks but is willing to go on, which is magnified by the fact that she wasn't singing about just anyone, but her own. That fact she's reflected on her circumstances to such a degree leads me to conclude she finally started making progress at actually owning up to the horrible things she did and trying to make some amends a step at a time. The mountain reference is an allusion about pushing a rock up the mountain of atonement.

[Tvtyrant]

Its cool Mr. Wolf. I will start with this is my opinion though, cause im not the author and its how it came off to me.

I believe that she's singing about how life just sucks but is willing to go on, which is magnified by the fact that she wasn't singing about just anyone, but her own. That fact she's reflected on her circumstances to such a degree leads me to conclude she finally started making progress at actually owning up to the horrible things she did and trying to make some amends a step at a time. The mountain reference is an allusion about pushing a rock up the mountain of atonement.

But how does this explain Hune's "older than light or night" magic spell?

[tyckspoon]

But how does this explain Hune's "older than light or night" magic spell?

I think you may have quoted the wrong block, Akua's song-spell had nothing to do with Hune.

.. but to answer the question, that wasn't a spell. That was Hune using her death-curse on Varlet. It's something all loyal followers of Below appear to have a right to, the one thing they will give to you in payment for your worship - they'll directly intercede in the world on your behalf. Hanno's mother used it to curse the city officials that refused to give her aid. Warlock used it to destroy the Ashuran fleet after they summoned a god on the city he was trying to defend (according to commentary over on the actual story post - I don't remember this being pointed out, just that he stopped holding back and threw a crapload of magic at them and allowed himself to die from it/didn't reserve anything to try to keep himself alive.) Tyrant used it to enhance his last twist at the trial where Heirophant went into Judgment and screwed up Hanno. And Hune used it to attack the Revenant that killed her.

Unrelated, Cat blames herself for killing Hune, but based on the brief description of Harm that she ripped out of Varlet.. I suspect any attempt to heal or remove the poison would have triggered a similar reaction. I don't think she was merely poisoned - I think she was attacked with an Aspect, and you can't expect to fight that without already knowing about the Aspect and its limits, or having an appropriate countering Aspect.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: hmm

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Did you not get the meaning behind Akua's song? She's picking up speed up the otherside of that mountain. Though Hune's death is going to be impactful after this. Cat KNOWS the poison was geared towards her attempts at healing and admits she killed Hune. The battle may have occupied her mind, but now that its over, she's going to have a lot eating her.

^ The original post we were responding to.

I think you may have quoted the wrong block, Akua's song-spell had nothing to do with Hune.

.. but to answer the question, that wasn't a spell. That was Hune using her death-curse on Varlet. It's something all loyal followers of Below appear to have a right to, the one thing they will give to you in payment for your worship - they'll directly interceed in the world on your behalf. Hanno's mother used it to curse the city officials that refused to give her aid. Warlock used it to destroy the Ashuran fleet after they summoned a god on the city he was trying to defend (according to commentary over on the actual story post - I don't remember this being pointed out, just that he stopped holding back and threw a crapload of magic at them and allowed himself to die from it/didn't reserve anything to try to keep himself alive.) Tyrant used it to enhance his last twist at the trial where Heirophant went into Judgment and screwed up Hanno. And Hune used it to attack the Revenant that killed her.

Okay, thanks. I missed the commentary on that before. It clears a few things up from the story.

[Forum Explorer]

I think you may have quoted the wrong block, Akua's song-spell had nothing to do with Hune.

.. but to answer the question, that wasn't a spell. That was Hune using her death-curse on Varlet. It's something all loyal followers of Below appear to have a right to, the one thing they will give to you in payment for your worship - they'll directly intercede in the world on your behalf. Hanno's mother used it to curse the city officials that refused to give her aid. Warlock used it to destroy the Ashuran fleet after they summoned a god on the city he was trying to defend (according to commentary over on the actual story post - I don't remember this being pointed out, just that he stopped holding back and threw a crapload of magic at them and allowed himself to die from it/didn't reserve anything to try to keep himself alive.) Tyrant used it to enhance his last twist at the trial where Heirophant went into Judgment and screwed up Hanno. And Hune used it to attack the Revenant that killed her.

Unrelated, Cat blames herself for killing Hune, but based on the brief description of Harm that she ripped out of Varlet.. I suspect any attempt to heal or remove the poison would have triggered a similar reaction. I don't think she was merely poisoned - I think she was attacked with an Aspect, and you can't expect to fight that without already knowing about the Aspect and its limits, or having an appropriate countering Aspect.

Small correction, Tyrant didn't use his at all according to what commentary I've been able to find. He already got exactly what he wanted.

[tyckspoon]

Small correction, Tyrant didn't use his at all according to what commentary I've been able to find. He already got exactly what he wanted.

I would need to go hunt down that chapter and see if it says with any clarity what Tyrant actually did - I was going off secondhand commentary on that one too, and I think the idea was that Tyrant used his last Wish to achieve.. whatever it was he did at the trial instead of using it to bargain for or extend his own life. And since it was therefor literally his dying wish, it qualified for the last breath payoff - theoretically Below would have thrown extra power behind it, allowing him to achieve even more than he normally could with his Aspect.

..then again it was a pretty extreme Aspect to start with, he was leaning HARD into his role and story, and he got a lot of power out of playing his role to the hilt to start with, so it may not have needed any extra oomph anyways.

Edit: It's the Interludes that finished the last book. Found Cat warning about it when she was trying to tell Hanno that he was bringing the Choir of Judgement into a trap by trying to claim Kairos:

“And any other day I’d say the Seraphim lose a feather before they eat him, but today? We get a curse on the way out, White Knight, and it sticks. Even when it has no right to.”

For once, the memories that set his mind astray were not another’s. Gods of my ancestors, grant me due, his mother has once snarled. And as the blood-soaked tile through which she had honoured Below for many years shattered, the heavy weight of a curse had filled the air. All it had taken for it to seize men by the throat was for a knife to kiss a throat, and Hanno of Arwad to become entirely an orphan. The White Knight knew a thing or two of curses spoken with one’s last breath.

“I speak not in ignorance either, Your Majesty,” he softly said. “I understand that Kairos Theodosian is perhaps the closest thing to a high priest of Below that draws breath on Calernia, and his passing will not be a gentle thing. Yet it is your own past, that drags your eye away from the truth of this.”

Double Edit: Read through those chapters again. Kairos did NOT use his death-curse, not even to extend his own life as a reward for the service he had wrought to Below; all he wanted, in the end, was to know if he had put on a good enough show.

[Rydiro]

Double Edit: Read through those chapters again. Kairos did NOT use his death-curse, not even to extend his own life as a reward for the service he had wrought to Below; all he wanted, in the end, was to know if he had put on a good enough show.

Direct communication with the gods below seemed impossible otherwise. Their applause was a boon.

[HolyDraconus]

New chapters up

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so my thoughts on the White Knight is evolving, since a new Squire with a heavy Above lean showed up. But as someone said earlier, Cat is going to be an extremely powerful Named, with being able to Speak and affect both the Pilgrim and White Knight, when she shouldn't have any authority over them in that regard. The fighting is getting heavier. I cant shake the feeling tbat the Dead King isnt going to lose though.

[HolyDraconus]

More chapters up.

[Glimbur]

More chapters up.

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This sure smells like a Last Stand. Which is worrisome because I don't see how they can win the war from here. But they could lose it.

.

[Rydiro]

And mirror knights single upside is again his use as ammunition.
Cat is not even mentioning him as a meaningful contribution.