A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[Forum Explorer]

I guess my issue isn't so much the idea of remote agents, but literally replacing her walking stick with a bomb because she had it out of sight for an evening in a secure location. That was literally a prediction, on top of everyone being predicted to die because they made plans as part of the planning stages of a war effort.

What I am finding when it comes to looking at discussions of the story is that people just expect that everything will start looking up in order for everyone to get their throat cut because the Dead King/Bard have enough agents to do so without any foreshadowing.

I am just curious if there are other stories out there that seem to just break story threads like that. At least there is mention of Worm and the others that make it sound like a lot of the more popular web serials are significantly more grimdark than the Guide.

The Guide is more fridge horror than actual grim dark.

That's dumb.

Worm doesn't really do that. It's style is more of 'good job solving that problem. Now while you are still injured and exhausted, here's a much greater threat to deal with, and much higher stakes.' Most notably when

Spoiler: Worm spoilers

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Taylor killed Coil. At the time she was blind, had been shot, set on fire, attacked by her own insects, and had to jump out of a burning building. Naturally killing Coil meant Noelle would immediately begin a rampage and try and destroy the city. So now she had to fight a mini-Endbringer with the power to create evil duplicates of capes after touching them, and having nearly unlimited regeneration.

Every time, the threat doesn't really come out of no where, but at the same time, you aren't really expecting the threat to show up either.

[Mith]

That's dumb.

Worm doesn't really do that. It's style is more of 'good job solving that problem. Now while you are still injured and exhausted, here's a much greater threat to deal with, and much higher stakes.' Most notably when

Spoiler: Worm spoilers

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Taylor killed Coil. At the time she was blind, had been shot, set on fire, attacked by her own insects, and had to jump out of a burning building. Naturally killing Coil meant Noelle would immediately begin a rampage and try and destroy the city. So now she had to fight a mini-Endbringer with the power to create evil duplicates of capes after touching them, and having nearly unlimited regeneration.

Every time, the threat doesn't really come out of no where, but at the same time, you aren't really expecting the threat to show up either.

Thanks for the clarification. Worm doesn't sound like a story I would enjoy reading, so I don't mind the spoilers.

I know I am someone who goes off on the wrong tangent, but I still try to keep it in the bounds of "This will still keep me reading the story". A lot of the cries of "Death Flag" and the like would break the story.

I realise the solution is "Don't read the comments on things", but there are a few gems buried in it all that makes it hard not to sift through to find them.

[Forum Explorer]

Thanks for the clarification. Worm doesn't sound like a story I would enjoy reading, so I don't mind the spoilers.

I know I am someone who goes off on the wrong tangent, but I still try to keep it in the bounds of "This will still keep me reading the story". A lot of the cries of "Death Flag" and the like would break the story.

I realise the solution is "Don't read the comments on things", but there are a few gems buried in it all that makes it hard not to sift through to find them.

I don't know what you like, but I wouldn't really call Worm a dark story. It's gritty and bad things happen, but it is more about persevering through adversity and self sacrifice than anything else.

[Mith]

I don't know what you like, but I wouldn't really call Worm a dark story. It's gritty and bad things happen, but it is more about persevering through adversity and self sacrifice than anything else.

I may give it a crack then. I guess the issue is that I often see it described as a slog of a story.

[Tvtyrant]

I may give it a crack then. I guess the issue is that I often see it described as a slog of a story.

It's really good until the time skip, and then basically goes end game Naruto. Stop at the time skip and don't read the rest is my advice.

[Forum Explorer]

I may give it a crack then. I guess the issue is that I often see it described as a slog of a story.

It is very very long and it's not really split up like Practical Guide to Evil is. But it is pretty action packed.

I'd say the arc right before the timeskip is the worst however. And then the timeskip is handled with all the grace of a drunken clown navigating a factory full of fine china.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't know what you like, but I wouldn't really call Worm a dark story. It's gritty and bad things happen, but it is more about persevering through adversity and self sacrifice than anything else.

Sir I object to this, there are things legitimately horrifying and grim about that universe to the point where its so dark that I legit stopped reading like half way through, and the characters just weren't sympathetic enough to warrant reading further. I hard disagree with you.

[Tvtyrant]

It is very very long and it's not really split up like Practical Guide to Evil is. But it is pretty action packed.

I'd say the arc right before the timeskip is the worst however. And then the timeskip is handled with all the grace of a drunken clown navigating a factory full of fine china.

Agreed. It's hard to say when the best part to stop is without spoiling things. I suppose the best way to put it is "when they have apparently and obviously won."

[Lord Raziere]

Agreed. It's hard to say when the best part to stop is without spoiling things. I suppose the best way to put it is "when they have apparently and obviously won."

what.

Winning? In WORM? No one wins in Worm, its a constant downward spiral of depression, pain and suffering with no rest, relaxation or warmth. I've read up to 15 or 16, and spoilers about what happens after, I know at least that much.

[Forum Explorer]

Sir I object to this, there are things legitimately horrifying and grim about that universe to the point where its so dark that I legit stopped reading like half way through, and the characters just weren't sympathetic enough to warrant reading further. I hard disagree with you.

Bad things happen, but there is pretty much always something you can do to make things better. In fact, it's eventually revealed that the vast majority of problems in the universe are caused by people. Sometimes justified, but usually not. It's not a situation where the bad guys always win, and the good guys never really succeed. They do make progress in making the world a better place, they do find solutions to seemingly impossible challenges, and even bad people can find redemption.

[Tvtyrant]

what.

Winning? In WORM? No one wins in Worm, its a constant downward spiral of depression, pain and suffering with no rest, relaxation or warmth. I've read up to 15 or 16, and spoilers about what happens after, I know at least that much.

I feel like that is a gross misrepresentation of the story. Wildbow is big on the "frying pan into the fire" type story, but the world is basically MHA's dark age. It's not grimdark, just generally a cruddy time to be alive.

Pre-time skip at least. Post time skip it is basically 40k levels of grimderp.

[Lord Raziere]

I feel like that is a gross misrepresentation of the story. Wildbow is big on the "frying pan into the fire" type story, but the world is basically MHA's dark age. It's not grimdark, just generally a cruddy time to be alive.

Pre-time skip at least. Post time skip it is basically 40k levels of grimderp.

Those statements feel like distinctions without a difference.

and I disagree. the grimdark/derp (anyone who thinks these terms are different are kidding themselves, grimdarkness is always derp) begins Post-Leviathan.

@ Forum Explorer: I don't see how the problems being caused by people make it less grimdark, as people are always the cause of problems.

[Forum Explorer]

Those statements feel like distinctions without a difference.

and I disagree. the grimdark/derp (anyone who thinks these terms are different are kidding themselves, grimdarkness is always derp) begins Post-Leviathan.

@ Forum Explorer: I don't see how the problems being caused by people make it less grimdark, as people are always the cause of problems.

For me what makes something Grimdark is the utter hopelessness. That someone can't make a difference no matter how hard they try and whatever they do manage to achieve is ultimately meaningless.

Worm is disqualified by the fact that things do get better. Sure it's very much take one step back for every two steps forward, but ultimately their efforts do matter.

It matters because what is broken by people can be fixed by people. This isn't some ultimate cosmic problem or the universe itself being set up so that you always fail, it's other people making bad choices and it's as easy to fix as getting them to stop making such bad choices. Like, I want to say that's about 95% of the problems in Worm; the people in charge continually make really awful choices that have horrible consequences, that lead to more bad choices.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A more community level analysis, does anyone else notice of the fact that people are tending to be very gloom and doom (to the point that if their predictions were right they would break the the structure of the story)? Is that due to some habits of other web serials that have this tendency to just break story threads?

I've no idea what this WORM thing is, so I'll just sidestep that discussion, and instead offer a completely different take on the answer to your question: it has nothing to do with the tropes of web serials, and everything to do with the nature of comment sections. If you make a reasonable prediction in line with the usual tropes of a given story, there is no discussion about it. A few head nods, maybe, if that, and people move on to other topics. Only bold proclamations engender discussion and counter claims, and thus become habitual, if there is any commentary at all.

ETA: and before I get accused of hypocrisy, let me be clear: I do not think there is anything wrong with speculating about the outlandish possibilities. They are usually much more fun to discuss than expecting the story to follow the predictable path, even if in most cases the story will, in fact, follow the predictable path, because that's what made that path predictable. Even if I am usually more likely in the party-pooper counterclaim half of the discussion.

To a certain degree, there is also a "reaching for the moon" nature to such predictions. If you predict, say, that Archer will die in the upcoming battle because this or that scene you are interpreting as foreshadowing, you're likely to be wrong, but if you are right, you can rightfully claim your five minutes of fandom fame (and if you are wrong, well, so are most others, so you're at least in good company). A bold gamble when you literally gamble nothing of value is more interesting than a safe path.

Grey Wolf

[Rynjin]

I've no idea what this WORM thing is, so I'll just sidestep that discussion, and instead offer a completely different take on the answer to your question: it has nothing to do with the tropes of web serials, and everything to do with the nature of comment sections. If you make a reasonable prediction in line with the usual tropes of a given story, there is no discussion about it. A few head nods, maybe, if that, and people move on to other topics. Only bold proclamations engender discussion and counter claims, and thus become habitual, if there is any commentary at all.

Maybe, though I think Wildbow's work in general, and Worm in particular have a lot to do with it regardless. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that Worm is almost like the "Lord of the Rings" of web serials; it may not have been the first, but it could be largely credited for kicking off a serious boom in the medium and helping to popularize it.

Every single one of Wildbow's serials is in the top 10 "all time" popular stories, and they comprise 3 of the top 5 all time favorites slots to boot (Pact, the least well received of the bunch, sits at the paltry number 6 slot), with Worm STILL leading Practical Guide by over 1000 votes despite being wrapped up almost exactly 7 years ago now.

The DNA of the serial can be found very easily in most of the popular and up and coming web novels. No complete 1 to 1 ripoffs that I know of (though The Inheritors comes real close), and particularly PGtE; they both star young female protagonists that grow up over the course of the series, both explore themes of "gray and gray" morality and the nature of villainy as a label society slaps on others more than any true objective measure of morality, both are deconstructions of popular genres (super heroes for Worm, fantasy epics for PGtE), both operate on a nominal "anyone can die" paradigm, though again with both in practice the main cast is pretty obviously safe until they're off screen for any length of time, both operate on the same (now standard) multiple books told primarily from a single viewpoint character but occasionally dipping into Interludes for mostly unrelated subjects chapter structure, both have characters with a disturbing proclivity for self harm and collateral damage, and so on.

But most pointedly they both draw heavily on serial escalation and From Bad to Worse tropes of storytelling.

So it's no surprise that people think the story is building to a bittersweet ending of some sort, as did Worm. The main issue is that they have very little sense of narrative timing, and crow about things going wrong in ways that would be intensely narratively unsatisfying just because they expect the tropes to come into play. In essence, they think ErraticErrata is a hack writer, I guess?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In essence, they think ErraticErrata is a hack writer, I guess?

Nah, I think it's just that by and large the commenters on both Worm and PGtE got it into their heads that those serials are all about "subverting" and "deconstructing" superhero and fantasy tropes because they don't know the difference between subversion/deconstruction and justification/reconstructionp and their comments all follow from that.

Both serials are, in fact, mostly reconstructions of their respective genres. Both deconstruction and reconstruction involve applying a "How would this play out in real life?" filter to tropes where the "text" (the stuff that happens in the story) doesn't match the "subtext" (the narrative conceit underlying what happens that clashes with reality), but essentially deconstruction is changing the text to match the subtext (e.g. "Most street-level superheroes wouldn't survive a bullet to the head, so obviously the existence of snipers in real life means that superheroes would never happen") while reconstruction is changing the subtext to match the text (e.g. "Most street-level superheroes wouldn't survive a bullet to the head, so obviously the existence of superheroes in the story means that there's some reason--say, social norms and/or a secret multidimensional conspiracy--that snipers aren't an issue for them").

The thing both of those have in common is that the average reader going into the story is going to see certain storylines and plot elements and expect them to follow certain tropes, but then the story is going to subvert their expectations and surprise them. But they're not necessarily going to be able to recognize why it did so (almost always, in this kind of story, for a specific purpose such as playing into a major theme or setting up a specific plot twist), only that it did so, and won't be thinking of the need for internal consistency and the perils of dei ex machinis and suchlike in the same way a writer or trope-savvy reader would.

Thus, they're not going to necessarily recognize when it would be likely for a twist to happen versus when it would be likely for a trope to be played straight, they're just going to go "Well it looks like X is going to happen but it would really subvert my expectations if Y happened instead so Wildbow/ErraticErrata is probably going to do Y [even though it's highly unlikely and makes no sense with the story thus far]!" or "Well, in Worm [or whatever other serial] when I thought X was going to happen Y happened instead to make things more depressing[/high-stakes/grimdark/etc.] so ErraticErrata is probably going to do Y instead of X [even though the two events are only superficially similar and doing things the same way would make no sense given the differences between the serials]!"

So it's not that they think EE is a hack, it's just that they have no idea what they're talking about and are Dunning-Krugering all over the comment section.

[Mith]

I've no idea what this WORM thing is, so I'll just sidestep that discussion, and instead offer a completely different take on the answer to your question: it has nothing to do with the tropes of web serials, and everything to do with the nature of comment sections. If you make a reasonable prediction in line with the usual tropes of a given story, there is no discussion about it. A few head nods, maybe, if that, and people move on to other topics. Only bold proclamations engender discussion and counter claims, and thus become habitual, if there is any commentary at all.

ETA: and before I get accused of hypocrisy, let me be clear: I do not think there is anything wrong with speculating about the outlandish possibilities. They are usually much more fun to discuss than expecting the story to follow the predictable path, even if in most cases the story will, in fact, follow the predictable path, because that's what made that path predictable. Even if I am usually more likely in the party-pooper counterclaim half of the discussion.

To a certain degree, there is also a "reaching for the moon" nature to such predictions. If you predict, say, that Archer will die in the upcoming battle because this or that scene you are interpreting as foreshadowing, you're likely to be wrong, but if you are right, you can rightfully claim your five minutes of fandom fame (and if you are wrong, well, so are most others, so you're at least in good company). A bold gamble when you literally gamble nothing of value is more interesting than a safe path.

Grey Wolf

That's fair. I guess the difference is that I embrace the discussions of interesting ideas that could play out across themes (since themes do not just have one set pay out). An example related to recent events is that Akua gets embraced by the Choir of Compassion.

Do I think it's a "Locked in long shot"? No. But it's an interesting idea that fits a lot of themes (as I see them at least) within the story, and I am also hoping we see every Choir before the series is done.

[Rydiro]

Those statements feel like distinctions without a difference.

and I disagree. the grimdark/derp (anyone who thinks these terms are different are kidding themselves, grimdarkness is always derp) begins Post-Leviathan

I have read worm to the end and I agree with you. It is unnecessarily grimdark. Basically "And it gets worse" ad infinitum. And then more horrible things happen to traumatized teenagers. The pacing suffers too as more relaxed characterization chapters vanish as the story moves on. Still well written all in all.

Worms MC is at least a better person than Cat.

I think the fans guess at bad things to happen, because Cat said so herself. They will lose some things before all of it is over. Probably Hakram, cause its always Hakram. And Akua.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: ...huh...

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New chapter all that... so... huh... Akua doesn't have her power.. I mean.. I figured she didn't but she was capable of doing SOMETHING... now its like.... and worse... the Crows are putting HALF of everything into this fight... it really is the big one now. If Cat doesn't walk out of this battle with her Name I will eat my keyboard. No way in hell is she going into something this HUGE with literally everyone (except maybe the gnomes and elves) watching and not coming out of it with more bs than she walked in with.

[Tvtyrant]

New extra chapter!

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So now we have a much better idea about the start of the setting. It's very Tad Williams, but I did like the whole "uses their magic to try to change the narrative and the backlash kills them."

[Rydiro]

New extra chapter!

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So now we have a much better idea about the start of the setting. It's very Tad Williams, but I did like the whole "uses their magic to try to change the narrative and the backlash kills them."

I didn't really get what they were trying to do, can you explain?

[Tvtyrant]

I didn't really get what they were trying to do, can you explain?

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Use time magic to bring back all of the dead titans and giants I believe. The Witch of the Woods uses time magic against the Calamities when they fight, and it specifically references it as being her master's spell.

It's the plan of the Storm King from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.


We also get to see that Cat is correct, as the West not being enslaved led to their greater development.

[druid91]

Eh... I can understand where the pessimism comes from if the audience shifted over from Wildbow stories. Because Frankly Wildbow *is* fond of Diabolus Ex-Machina. As an example,

Spoiler: Pact Spoilers

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the sudden, out of nowhere reveal that Faisal Anwhar was working with the Barber to kill everyone in the town. For... Some reason.

Are things going to get better? Woops, no they aren't. They're worse now.

[HolyDraconus]

New chapter up

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oof. Hulk vibes with the beserker confirmed. The kids killing a revenant is pretty big too, considering who they are and where they hail. It feels like Cat made some grooves of her own and they are the first. But im very interested in the Pinon tho. That sword seems busted if it allows self res. Its a straight up Villain sword if it requires souls to power the effect though.

[Mith]

New chapter up

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oof. Hulk vibes with the beserker confirmed. The kids killing a revenant is pretty big too, considering who they are and where they hail. It feels like Cat made some grooves of her own and they are the first. But im very interested in the Pinon tho. That sword seems busted if it allows self res. Its a straight up Villain sword if it requires souls to power the effect though.

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There is an interesting idea that it is a Gigantes weapon for killing dragons, as such it saps vitality (soul structure) from it's targets and empowers the wielder. A solid tool to give a human dragon slayer. It's fondness for undead and similar creatures (Drake was odd) might just be that that they are easier to "eat". Resurrection might just be that the sword serves as an anchor for his soul to make it easier to heal him. This sort of makes him a pseudo Drake.

[HolyDraconus]

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There is an interesting idea that it is a Gigantes weapon for killing dragons, as such it saps vitality (soul structure) from it's targets and empowers the wielder. A solid tool to give a human dragon slayer. It's fondness for undead and similar creatures (Drake was odd) might just be that that they are easier to "eat". Resurrection might just be that the sword serves as an anchor for his soul to make it easier to heal him. This sort of makes him a pseudo Drake.

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Arrow in throat that is almost certainly poisoned from the Hawk? I don't think he healed that off.

[The Glyphstone]

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If it costs him a lot of stored souls to walk off a death, its not that overpowered. Very good, but still easily beatable if you know its coming. The Draje's trick was far worse.

[Mith]

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Arrow in throat that is almost certainly poisoned from the Hawk? I don't think he healed that off.

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I was more meaning a broad stroke "healing" such as regeneration. But fair point.

[tyckspoon]

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Arrow in throat that is almost certainly poisoned from the Hawk? I don't think he healed that off.

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I would guess it goes like Barrow Sword dies - his sword/an Aspect (considering he is Named for the sword, these two things are probably closely intertwined in at least one respect) captures his soul, the sword/Aspect expends other captured souls for energy to repair whatever damaged him, then sticks his soul back in the body.

Speculation: Ishaq thinks of the sword as having 'wants' and being more or less satisfied with certain kinds of souls. It may actually be an intelligent artifact, and there is probably a 'feed me or I eat YOU' thing going on. Possibly a deal of souls-for-power that was made, and he's required to fill the sword's soul-meter before he can freely enjoy the power.. but using the power also requires spending souls from the sword, so, you know, company store deal.

Interesting that we got to watch Barrow Sword fight a fairly major enemy but still didn't see him mention or specifically use any of his Aspects.

[Tvtyrant]

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I like how the narrative spat out all of these soul stealing heroes just in time for the big war. Headhunter, Barrow Sword, Troubador. Almost like the narrative is trying to give them weapons to destroy Keter.


Unrelated, but I think there is a none-zero chance the Akua ends up with the Sword of Contrition. Squire looks like a red herring while the sword fragments are a bit of a smoking gun.