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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    I agree that even if they are all true Heroes, that the current Blood would fight the inclusion of the Barrow Sword as one of the Blood. I just wonder why Mercy would show up to smite the Pilgrim if he was a Hero. They are the "Greater Good" choir, so why would they care if a province separates from a mortal empire?
    Cat's internal monologue directly answered that. Because instantly crushing the rebellion in its infancy, and instead going for internal reforms, would bring less suffering than a civil war.

    I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?
    Because all that Codelia has so far learned, is that according to other people, with another agenda then herself, it may possibly be a bomb.
    Were i in Cordelia's shoes, ignorant of how the plot revolves around Cat, then i would honestly also keep my angel corse in reserve.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?

    At the same time, it scares her allies, and creates potential threats in the Dwarves who would not want that to be fired at all, and might just do a premptive strike to take it away (and destroy anyone who tries to stop them from taking it.)


    Mind you, I can think of a way it would be useful, namely, as a weird bomb. Escort the bomb deep into the Hells so it doesn't activate while in Creation at all, and then the blast would likely not hurt anyone who isn't a demon anyways. Or maybe not. That could be quite the heroic story, so I think it's got a decent chance of working (particularly if there is a villain along the ride who can be redeemed and then sacrificed). But presumably, there's a reason that won't work. Maybe Angels, even their corpses, simply cannot be brought into the Hells, for example.
    The weapon isn't supposed to be a bomb, but the Bard is capable of altering it into a bomb. Without the Bard interfering, it would work differently.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all.
    M.A.D. doctrine? When you are a regular human in a world of superheroes, it might pay to have a red button that even they'd be scared of? or, maybe, if InvisibleBison's idea that it might not be that bad if the bard behaves or is kept away (and remember, Cordelia's cousin was able to block the Bard once already), it might be calibrated to only wipe Keter from the map.

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm curious why Cordelia thinks this superweapon is a good idea at all. Learning it is basically a bomb that will wipe out all of Procer and then some seems to make it a losing choice. She can't even threaten the Dead King with it because he can reply that is she sure he's actually in Keter at the moment, or is he in Praes, enjoying the hospitality of Malicia?

    At the same time, it scares her allies, and creates potential threats in the Dwarves who would not want that to be fired at all, and might just do a premptive strike to take it away (and destroy anyone who tries to stop them from taking it.)


    Mind you, I can think of a way it would be useful, namely, as a weird bomb. Escort the bomb deep into the Hells so it doesn't activate while in Creation at all, and then the blast would likely not hurt anyone who isn't a demon anyways. Or maybe not. That could be quite the heroic story, so I think it's got a decent chance of working (particularly if there is a villain along the ride who can be redeemed and then sacrificed). But presumably, there's a reason that won't work. Maybe Angels, even their corpses, simply cannot be brought into the Hells, for example.
    Keter's going to destroy the continent under waves of undead anyway, sacrificing half to kill off the apocalypse doesn't seem so bad. It's the same concept as nuking New York in Avengers; yeah the collateral is bad but it is less bad then losing altogether.

    As has been pointed out by several characters, this is the strongest army the continent has ever assembled and it isn't winning. They have gods, heroes, villains, massive armies, thousands of mages, super weapons, and they are not actively losing to a force that isn't trying that hard. That's not a great outcome.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    M.A.D. doctrine? When you are a regular human in a world of superheroes, it might pay to have a red button that even they'd be scared of? or, maybe, if InvisibleBison's idea that it might not be that bad if the bard behaves or is kept away (and remember, Cordelia's cousin was able to block the Bard once already), it might be calibrated to only wipe Keter from the map.

    Grey Wolf
    Its not just an idea. Its a fact. The entire doomsday scenario revolves 100 % around both the Bard screwing around with the angel corpse,
    as well as the Bard intentionally not only make it explore, but also uses her power to magnify the explosion.

    So im 100 % supportive of Cordelia thinking its all a load of rubbish. And decides not to throw her super weapon away on such a flimsy ground.

    In part i guess because its her country who are the battleground now.
    If she is about to be overrun she might want a FU button that saves all her people from getting killed by zombies?
    My preference would certainly be getting nuked over that.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Its not just an idea. Its a fact. The entire doomsday scenario revolves 100 % around both the Bard screwing around with the angel corpse,
    as well as the Bard intentionally not only make it explore, but also uses her power to magnify the explosion.

    So im 100 % supportive of Cordelia thinking its all a load of rubbish. And decides not to throw her super weapon away on such a flimsy ground.

    In part i guess because its her country who are the battleground now.
    If she is about to be overrun she might want a FU button that saves all her people from getting killed by zombies?
    My preference would certainly be getting nuked over that.
    It wont win the fight tho. At this point it's just her clutching some power to remain relevant when she would otherwise be powerless.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    M.A.D. doctrine? When you are a regular human in a world of superheroes, it might pay to have a red button that even they'd be scared of? or, maybe, if InvisibleBison's idea that it might not be that bad if the bard behaves or is kept away (and remember, Cordelia's cousin was able to block the Bard once already), it might be calibrated to only wipe Keter from the map.

    Grey Wolf
    Having a weapon like that available is just begging to have someone steal it from you. And when there are names who can literally steal things like an entire fleet, you can't expect there to be a perfect security system. And the Bard just ran rampart over the security of their best fortress. There is no way Cordelia can keep her away from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Keter's going to destroy the continent under waves of undead anyway, sacrificing half to kill off the apocalypse doesn't seem so bad. It's the same concept as nuking New York in Avengers; yeah the collateral is bad but it is less bad then losing altogether.

    As has been pointed out by several characters, this is the strongest army the continent has ever assembled and it isn't winning. They have gods, heroes, villains, massive armies, thousands of mages, super weapons, and they are not actively losing to a force that isn't trying that hard. That's not a great outcome.
    As a final resort I can kinda see the point. But they've got things like Severence and Quartered Seasons as other options. So while those existence, I don't feel like Cordelia is justified in pursuing this. If anything it'd be a distraction to her allies who haven't given up yet, and very much don't want to either go extinct or lose a massive number of their troops/land.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Its not just an idea. Its a fact. The entire doomsday scenario revolves 100 % around both the Bard screwing around with the angel corpse,
    as well as the Bard intentionally not only make it explore, but also uses her power to magnify the explosion.

    So im 100 % supportive of Cordelia thinking its all a load of rubbish. And decides not to throw her super weapon away on such a flimsy ground.

    In part i guess because its her country who are the battleground now.
    If she is about to be overrun she might want a FU button that saves all her people from getting killed by zombies?
    My preference would certainly be getting nuked over that.
    And the Bard can 100% screw around with the corpse. We've already got evidence of her messing with Angel powers (exactly what they sent this band off to discover) and proof of her being able to penetrate the strongest and most highly defended fortress they have available. So long as the Bard is around, that weapon is more of a liability than an asset, and the Bard is around.

    Also, again, the weapon is a massive FU to multiple factions. She might be willing to pull the trigger on that, but the Drow wouldn't want to be exterminated, neither would the Free Cities who get hit, and or the entire island nation who I think is currently neutral. Or the dwarves. Seriously, if I was the Drow, and Cordelia built that weapon? I'd change my evacuation to Callow so my race wouldn't go extinct because someone lost their nerve and pulled the trigger on their doomsday weapon. Which ironically, would likely create a situation where Cordelia would end up pushed to activate her doomsday weapon.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Having a weapon like that available is just begging to have someone steal it from you. And when there are names who can literally steal things like an entire fleet, you can't expect there to be a perfect security system. And the Bard just ran rampart over the security of their best fortress. There is no way Cordelia can keep her away from it.



    As a final resort I can kinda see the point. But they've got things like Severence and Quartered Seasons as other options. So while those existence, I don't feel like Cordelia is justified in pursuing this. If anything it'd be a distraction to her allies who haven't given up yet, and very much don't want to either go extinct or lose a massive number of their troops/land.



    And the Bard can 100% screw around with the corpse. We've already got evidence of her messing with Angel powers (exactly what they sent this band off to discover) and proof of her being able to penetrate the strongest and most highly defended fortress they have available. So long as the Bard is around, that weapon is more of a liability than an asset, and the Bard is around.

    Also, again, the weapon is a massive FU to multiple factions. She might be willing to pull the trigger on that, but the Drow wouldn't want to be exterminated, neither would the Free Cities who get hit, and or the entire island nation who I think is currently neutral. Or the dwarves. Seriously, if I was the Drow, and Cordelia built that weapon? I'd change my evacuation to Callow so my race wouldn't go extinct because someone lost their nerve and pulled the trigger on their doomsday weapon. Which ironically, would likely create a situation where Cordelia would end up pushed to activate her doomsday weapon.
    I mean, they've also made it very clear that unstoppable super weapons will never work. Because the narrative won't let it.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    And the Bard can 100% screw around with the corpse. We've already got evidence of her messing with Angel powers (exactly what they sent this band off to discover) and proof of her being able to penetrate the strongest and most highly defended fortress they have available. So long as the Bard is around, that weapon is more of a liability than an asset, and the Bard is around.
    No. The only thing we know for 100 % certainty is that Bard can fiddle with the threat detection of a live angel.
    Anything that follows that is educated speculation.

    Also, again, the weapon is a massive FU to multiple factions. She might be willing to pull the trigger on that, but the Drow wouldn't want to be exterminated, neither would the Free Cities who get hit, and or the entire island nation who I think is currently neutral. Or the dwarves. Seriously, if I was the Drow, and Cordelia built that weapon? I'd change my evacuation to Callow so my race wouldn't go extinct because someone lost their nerve and pulled the trigger on their doomsday weapon. Which ironically, would likely create a situation where Cordelia would end up pushed to activate her doomsday weapon.
    Because, again, the weapon is Not a bomb. I reapet. Its not a bomb.
    This like someone harping on a stockpile of plutonium. Because it could be made into a nuclear reaktor.
    And it could be sabotaged by someone to blow up. Someone by the way. Who still dont have a motive to do so.

    Throwing the corpse away so early is a dumb panic reaction.
    At most this is a reason to increase security and pause development.

    I mean, they've also made it very clear that unstoppable super weapons will never work. Because the narrative won't let it.
    Cough "severance"
    That certainly worked extremely well at removing a demon problem.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    No. The only thing we know for 100 % certainty is that Bard can fiddle with the threat detection of a live angel.
    Anything that follows that is educated speculation.



    Because, again, the weapon is Not a bomb. I reapet. Its not a bomb.
    This like someone harping on a stockpile of plutonium. Because it could be made into a nuclear reaktor.
    And it could be sabotaged by someone to blow up. Someone by the way. Who still dont have a motive to do so.

    Throwing the corpse away so early is a dumb panic reaction.
    At most this is a reason to increase security and pause development.



    Cough "severance"
    That certainly worked extremely well at removing a demon problem.
    We also know that the calculated blast from the angel corpse would wipe out everything between Keter and Callow. And that the Bard will 100% get the opportunity to mess with it. They don't really have a reliable way to stop her, or else they would use it already.


    It's not a bomb yet. Cordelia is wanting to turn it into a weapon. So plutonium is a good example, except they aren't building a reactor, they are building a nuke. Maybe you could build some sort of angelic reactor thing out of it, but Cordelia is explicitly wanting a weapon. And what are you talking about doesn't have a motive? The Wandering Bard has been very clear about her desire to destroy Keter and more importantly, to have this thing activate. To the point of sabotaging other weapons that could work against the Dead King.


    The Severence isn't a super weapon though. If it goes wrong, millions of people don't die. You might have someone go insane, or turn the Saint of Swords into some weird super Reverent, but the scale of the disaster is much more limited.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Someone in the comments posted a good point that the trials appear to be a Thing of Threes, with Cat winning the first trial easily. Next is Mirror Knights, then Red Axe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Someone in the comments posted a good point that the trials appear to be a Thing of Threes, with Cat winning the first trial easily. Next is Mirror Knights, then Red Axe.
    It'll be interesting, because where Cat contests Hanno is over Mirror Knight, not the Red Axe. So having this set up may end up with 3 wins leaning on Hanno's Heroic relationship to the Pattern of Three (Mirror Knight as a mutual Draw and the Red Axe as a different victory as both Hanno and Cat are in agreement)

    Of course, Cat could just lose, but it might be interesting to show how a systemic approach can break Patterns since they are not steered by Narrative.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    It'll be interesting, because where Cat contests Hanno is over Mirror Knight, not the Red Axe. So having this set up may end up with 3 wins leaning on Hanno's Heroic relationship to the Pattern of Three (Mirror Knight as a mutual Draw and the Red Axe as a different victory as both Hanno and Cat are in agreement)

    Of course, Cat could just lose, but it might be interesting to show how a systemic approach can break Patterns since they are not steered by Narrative.
    Is the conflict Cat vs. Hanno? I kind of see it as the Terms vs. Independent Motives, where Cat wants the Terms to survive foremost while the constituents are mostly interested in their own survival and viewpoints. Hasenbach wants the HA to retain soverignty and Procer to retain independent viability, Hanno wants justice done, etc.
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    We also know that the calculated blast from the angel corpse would wipe out everything between Keter and Callow. And that the Bard will 100% get the opportunity to mess with it. They don't really have a reliable way to stop her, or else they would use it already.
    Thats still based on the chosing to Bard meddle, the Bard meddling to turn the corpse into a bomb, and the Bard getting the oppotunity to do so.
    We got 3 steps here, each with a chance of failure. So it can in no way be 100 % chance of explosion.
    Where it should also be pointed out, the episodes with both Black and the Augur shows the Bard can indeed be foiled in her plans.

    It's not a bomb yet. Cordelia is wanting to turn it into a weapon. So plutonium is a good example, except they aren't building a reactor, they are building a nuke. Maybe you could build some sort of angelic reactor thing out of it, but Cordelia is explicitly wanting a weapon. And what are you talking about doesn't have a motive? The Wandering Bard has been very clear about her desire to destroy Keter and more importantly, to have this thing activate. To the point of sabotaging other weapons that could work against the Dead King.
    No.. it could also be they are building a nuklear powered rail gun. We dont know anything about how you weaponise an angel corpse.
    Except that its a bad idea.

    But yes we have evidence of Bard wanting the corpse used somehow.
    What we lack evidence of is she will interfere when its used. For all we know she is content with its intended use.
    And the Dead King are just playing mind games.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Thats still based on the chosing to Bard meddle, the Bard meddling to turn the corpse into a bomb, and the Bard getting the oppotunity to do so.
    We got 3 steps here, each with a chance of failure. So it can in no way be 100 % chance of explosion.
    Where it should also be pointed out, the episodes with both Black and the Augur shows the Bard can indeed be foiled in her plans.
    Perhaps, but at what percentage of success is an 80% (conservative) casualty rate for an entire continent acceptable?

    Especially given we know for as near to an absolute fact that there is a precisely 0% chance of this thing working to kill the Dead King.

    It is the definition of a high risk, low reward scenario. Even assuming there's a 10% (and that's generous) chance of it actually succeeding, when the consequences for failure are as bad or worse than the thing it would be preventing, it's not worth considering as a possibility. So what would you consider the Bard's chance of success is, if not 100%? 80%? 60%? 30%?

    Taking even a 15% chance of making things way, way worse for the 10% chance of total success is a fool's gamble in this situation.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Perhaps, but at what percentage of success is an 80% (conservative) casualty rate for an entire continent acceptable?
    Rather simple question. At the point where those odds look better than a 90% casualty rate from another source.

    Especially given we know for as near to an absolute fact that there is a precisely 0% chance of this thing working to kill the Dead King.

    It is the definition of a high risk, low reward scenario. Even assuming there's a 10% (and that's generous) chance of it actually succeeding, when the consequences for failure are as bad or worse than the thing it would be preventing, it's not worth considering as a possibility. So what would you consider the Bard's chance of success is, if not 100%? 80%? 60%? 30%?

    Taking even a 15% chance of making things way, way worse for the 10% chance of total success is a fool's gamble in this situation.
    No. Thats a mistake in classifying the scenario. WE know it has no chance of working because that would not fit the story we are reading.

    But Cat isnt the main character in Cordelia's story. She dont have access to impartial information on what unfolds.

    And so until then, keeping the corpse around as a backup is the definition of a low risk /high reward scenario.
    Whats the risk as long as you dont do anything with the corpse? nothing.
    Whats the reward if stuff breaks down and the Death king is suddenly sieging her capital? Massive since she suddenly have a tool of last resort that would annoy even him.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Rather simple question. At the point where those odds look better than a 90% casualty rate from another source.



    No. Thats a mistake in classifying the scenario. WE know it has no chance of working because that would not fit the story we are reading.

    But Cat isnt the main character in Cordelia's story. She dont have access to impartial information on what unfolds.

    And so until then, keeping the corpse around as a backup is the definition of a low risk /high reward scenario.
    Whats the risk as long as you dont do anything with the corpse? nothing.
    Whats the reward if stuff breaks down and the Death king is suddenly sieging her capital? Massive since she suddenly have a tool of last resort that would annoy even him.
    I mean, except even IN UNIVERSE giant doomsday weapons that destroy nations are known to never work or backfire at inopportune moments for narrative reasons. They could literally ask almost any experienced named.
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    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    I mean, except even IN UNIVERSE giant doomsday weapons that destroy nations are known to never work or backfire at inopportune moments for narrative reasons. They could literally ask almost any experienced named.
    Yeah except Cat and Malicia thought Liesse would work, Praes still has super weapons stock piled, and the whole Triumphant thing (also the Gnomes.) The Drow turned their souls into an invincible barrier that lasted thousands of years.

    Clearly tremendous effort goes into keeping those weapons from working by Bard or the Gods. We also have Black saying they never work, who is competent but also nuts.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yeah except Cat and Malicia thought Liesse would work, Praes still has super weapons stock piled, and the whole Triumphant thing (also the Gnomes.) The Drow turned their souls into an invincible barrier that lasted thousands of years.

    Clearly tremendous effort goes into keeping those weapons from working by Bard or the Gods. We also have Black saying they never work, who is competent but also nuts.
    The Drow's barrier/misdirection thing wasn't a weapon. It was a defense. And it was failing - the Dwarves penetrated it and were actively waging a war against them on the wrong side of it when Cat went into the Everdark.

    Liesse probably would have worked.. for a while. The idea after all was to *not use it* - it was to be the sword in the terrible-wine-or-get-stabbed diplomacy. But it also would have attracted or spawned heroes all across Calernia to try and destroy it, and not even Black could fend off the stories that would build against it forever. It would get destroyed sooner or later, and if they were lucky it would be the only thing destroyed when it happened. And then what would happen to the agreements made with the other nations under threat of Hellgate? Or if by chance it actually did get fired? Praes becomes an even worse pariah for having made and threatened other nations with the weapon, or it gets an honest-to-Above Crusade launched on it for having used it. One that is founded on needing to put down a lunatic nation that actually has a hellish weapon, not just political expediency and 'Well, you know, Praes is like Evil and things, so this is Good.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Is the conflict Cat vs. Hanno? I kind of see it as the Terms vs. Independent Motives, where Cat wants the Terms to survive foremost while the constituents are mostly interested in their own survival and viewpoints. Hasenbach wants the HA to retain soverignty and Procer to retain independent viability, Hanno wants justice done, etc.
    Fair point. I guess I see Hanno and Cat as two blades of a set of shears: solidly joined and closely if not completely in alignment.

    As such if they are working together, they can take most obstacles.

    Cat is not opposed to Justice. Her desire for Order and Peace can couple well with Hanno's drive for Justice. And to be entirely honest, if it isn't coupled with Justice, it would be with Tyranny, which means it would never last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Thats still based on the chosing to Bard meddle, the Bard meddling to turn the corpse into a bomb, and the Bard getting the oppotunity to do so.
    We got 3 steps here, each with a chance of failure. So it can in no way be 100 % chance of explosion.
    Where it should also be pointed out, the episodes with both Black and the Augur shows the Bard can indeed be foiled in her plans.



    No.. it could also be they are building a nuklear powered rail gun. We dont know anything about how you weaponise an angel corpse.
    Except that its a bad idea.

    But yes we have evidence of Bard wanting the corpse used somehow.
    What we lack evidence of is she will interfere when its used. For all we know she is content with its intended use.
    And the Dead King are just playing mind games.
    That's not three steps with each a chance to fail. The bard has already meddled, so she's likely made her choice, if the Bard is going to meddle it's to turn the angel into a guranteed kill shot. The only possible points of failure is the Bard might be shut down in her meddling like she was in the Arsenal. Which she wasn't. Not entirely. They saved Quartered Seasons sure, but Severence got in the hands of the Mirror Knight who has promptly messed things up for the Heroes, threatening the Truce and Terms which might break down the trust in heroes, and push Cordelia towards making the Angel bomb.

    It's true. They could succeed in stopping the Bard. Her attempt to meddle might be pretty much guaranteed at this point, but her success is not. However, she's an incredibly skilled Named who just launched a devastating attack against the Arsenal, an interdimensional fortress while guarded by the Black Queen and dozens of other Named.

    They are dealing with something that has the power to hit nearly the entire continent. A precision weapon it ain't. Mind you, I can think of a few possibilities on how you could wield it, such as transporting it into the Hells and activating it there. Or at least trying to stuff it into the Hellgate in Keter, and plugging it up. But it is still incredibly risky.

    From what we last saw from the Bard, content is not the word I would use for her. She seems to be pushing towards something disastrous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    The Drow's barrier/misdirection thing wasn't a weapon. It was a defense. And it was failing - the Dwarves penetrated it and were actively waging a war against them on the wrong side of it when Cat went into the Everdark.

    Liesse probably would have worked.. for a while. The idea after all was to *not use it* - it was to be the sword in the terrible-wine-or-get-stabbed diplomacy. But it also would have attracted or spawned heroes all across Calernia to try and destroy it, and not even Black could fend off the stories that would build against it forever. It would get destroyed sooner or later, and if they were lucky it would be the only thing destroyed when it happened. And then what would happen to the agreements made with the other nations under threat of Hellgate? Or if by chance it actually did get fired? Praes becomes an even worse pariah for having made and threatened other nations with the weapon, or it gets an honest-to-Above Crusade launched on it for having used it. One that is founded on needing to put down a lunatic nation that actually has a hellish weapon, not just political expediency and 'Well, you know, Praes is like Evil and things, so this is Good.'
    After thousands of years. And then they actually ascended to being deities, so it in fact worked.

    That's kind of the point though, they say it doesn't work because for Black to win he has to conquer everything in a blanket of darkness forever. They certainly do work in the short run, it's just that good and evil always resume their starting places in the long run. Except that DK is outside that narrative, he's in opposition to that narrative itself. The use of a super-weapon won't lead to deific interference or heroes popping up to save him.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    After thousands of years. And then they actually ascended to being deities, so it in fact worked.

    That's kind of the point though, they say it doesn't work because for Black to win he has to conquer everything in a blanket of darkness forever. They certainly do work in the short run, it's just that good and evil always resume their starting places in the long run. Except that DK is outside that narrative, he's in opposition to that narrative itself. The use of a super-weapon won't lead to deific interference or heroes popping up to save him.
    What the Sisters did wasn't a super weapon though. It was a last ditch effort to save their species from extinction, which pretty much wiped out their culture and left them in a terrible loop of murdering each other and constantly tearing each other down that could only be broken by outside intervention.

    That's a devil's bargain, and very much not the same thing.

    DK isn't outside the narrative though. He's instead really good at wielding stories and avoiding traps. Like not overreaching and making sure that he isn't the main focus. Like they could banish him right now by killing Malicia because he doesn't want to be the 'main villain'.
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    That's not three steps with each a chance to fail. The bard has already meddled, so she's likely made her choice, if the Bard is going to meddle it's to turn the angel into a guranteed kill shot. The only possible points of failure is the Bard might be shut down in her meddling like she was in the Arsenal. Which she wasn't. Not entirely. They saved Quartered Seasons sure, but Severence got in the hands of the Mirror Knight who has promptly messed things up for the Heroes, threatening the Truce and Terms which might break down the trust in heroes, and push Cordelia towards making the Angel bomb.
    That is 3 seperate steps. That the Bard has meddled in something different does not guarantee she will meddle in this. She has also refrained from messing with stuff.

    The Bard meddling isnt guaranteed to make the corpse a massive bomb. If you want to get rid of someone in a bunker, what do you want the most? a big bomb that waste 99% of its energy?
    Or a bunker-busting missile?

    And the Bard was shut down to her plan C or B in the arsenal thing. They saved Quartered Seasons.
    And the Mirror Knight did save the Severence, as well as all of Arsenal. White Knight just afterwards had to step in and deal with the secondary disaster.

    It's true. They could succeed in stopping the Bard. Her attempt to meddle might be pretty much guaranteed at this point, but her success is not. However, she's an incredibly skilled Named who just launched a devastating attack against the Arsenal, an interdimensional fortress while guarded by the Black Queen and dozens of other Named.

    They are dealing with something that has the power to hit nearly the entire continent. A precision weapon it ain't. Mind you, I can think of a few possibilities on how you could wield it, such as transporting it into the Hells and activating it there. Or at least trying to stuff it into the Hellgate in Keter, and plugging it up. But it is still incredibly risky.

    From what we last saw from the Bard, content is not the word I would use for her. She seems to be pushing towards something disastrous.
    Well, i again think your thinking is to stuck on how this is something that the Bard -can- blow up somehow.
    A dry forest is also a disaster waiting to happen if you got a bottle of napalm. So is a tanker full of rocket fuel.
    But you can also use those to take a walk in. Or send someone off to the moon (excellent Dead King solution)

    So all we can say is this got a crapton of energy.
    So it could also be used for a Sword of Power style weapon, imbueing someone with the power of a choir He-Man/She-Ra style.
    Or be used for a wave motion cannon to snipe the dead kings castle.

    And i wont hold characters accountable for information about the Bard its only readers who have.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Mega post on several sub-threads, if I've misattributed a quote please say so:

    I agree with The Glyphstone and lord_khaine, Hanno's life is often on the line and he has made his peace with that. I do wonder where he got his savvy from though, I don't think he had it when the Black Knight schooled him in the Free Cities. I suppose that - as Iruka says - he has been studying the past lives rather carefully since then.

    I would expect Tariq and Laurence to train the Heroes under their wings but very little learning of any sort seems to have stuck with Christophe if they did. I think Catherine's training under Amadeus must have been an unusual confluence of superb teacher and exceptional pupil as it doesn't seem to be replicated elsewhere. The Bard and the Neshamah already had Catherine marked down as one to watch before she started dipping into the Arcadian echoes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yeah except Cat and Malicia thought Liesse would work, Praes still has super weapons stock piled, and the whole Triumphant thing (also the Gnomes.) The Drow turned their souls into an invincible barrier that lasted thousands of years.
    Well... Malicia expected Liesse to work for Malicia, not for Akua. Even so, Liesse and Still Waters were enough to get the 10th Crusade going, and pointed at Praes.
    Triumphant may she never return did succeed in conquering the whole of Calernia with her monstrosities; that's why the 1st Crusade put her down and carved up Praes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Keter's going to destroy the continent under waves of undead anyway, sacrificing half to kill off the apocalypse doesn't seem so bad. It's the same concept as nuking New York in Avengers; yeah the collateral is bad but it is less bad then losing altogether.
    The others are not doing a very good job of scaring Hasenbach. As you say, the 'worst case scenario' would be an improvement over doing nothing at that stage. But, and this is my opinion, the Bard's plot may be something more devious than "Rocks fall, everybody dies."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    As has been pointed out by several characters, this is the strongest army the continent has ever assembled and it isn't winning. They have gods, heroes, villains, massive armies, thousands of mages, super weapons, and they are not actively losing to a force that isn't trying that hard. That's not a great outcome.
    Bard did say that Neshamah has much more available to him. She made this claim in a face off where I think directly lying would be bad for her story-wise, but where she might omit caveats. For example: breaking out the big guns might bring a story down Neshamah's head, or attract the attention of a major power. Remember that Keter and the Kingdom Under are middling powers, everyone else on Calernia is a local hick.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Because all that Codelia has so far learned, is that according to other people, with another agenda then herself, it may possibly be a bomb.
    Were i in Cordelia's shoes, ignorant of how the plot revolves around Cat, then i would honestly also keep my angel corse in reserve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    As a final resort I can kinda see the point. But they've got things like Severence and Quartered Seasons as other options. So while those existence, I don't feel like Cordelia is justified in pursuing this. If anything it'd be a distraction to her allies who haven't given up yet, and very much don't want to either go extinct or lose a massive number of their troops/land.
    An implied danger is that - since the Bard wants to force the use of the angel - the continued existence of the weapon results in the Bard sabotaging every other attempt to defend against the Dead King. However, trying to convince Cordelia of this rather easily devolves into saying "No, we must do it our way not your way. You're spoiling it for everybody else." when Cordelia already feels that she lacks agency and is at the mercy of everyone else.
    Remember, Agnes and Cordelia have actually succeeded in out manoeuvring the Wandering Bard before, which counts for something in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Having a weapon like that available is just begging to have someone steal it from you. And when there are names who can literally steal things like an entire fleet, you can't expect there to be a perfect security system. And the Bard just ran rampart over the security of their best fortress. There is no way Cordelia can keep her away from it.
    Of course everyone knows that holding a last-ditch doomsday weapon is a huge trouble magnet. The only thing that could possibly draw as much grief is putting two ill-advised super-weapons into a trans-dimensional magical fortress. Did you catch that lingering scent of burning fairy with undertones of rotting demon[1]? Smells like hypocrisy, doesn't it Cat?

    I think that turning Neshamah into a god is even more dangerous than the angel nuke. Especially when you consider that he was the one who invited the Woe to Keter to discuss apotheosis. He has a history of laying traps for people who follow his studies into things with which man must not meddle, he caught Masego that way last time.

    [1] After all the fun and games I was expecting a demon of absence to make it's presence unfelt in the Arsenal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    It'll be interesting, because where Cat contests Hanno is over Mirror Knight, not the Red Axe. So having this set up may end up with 3 wins leaning on Hanno's Heroic relationship to the Pattern of Three (Mirror Knight as a mutual Draw and the Red Axe as a different victory as both Hanno and Cat are in agreement)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Is the conflict Cat vs. Hanno? I kind of see it as the Terms vs. Independent Motives, where Cat wants the Terms to survive foremost while the constituents are mostly interested in their own survival and viewpoints. Hasenbach wants the HA to retain soverignty and Procer to retain independent viability, Hanno wants justice done, etc.
    I also thought that the last chapter went suspiciously smoothly and started looking for a pattern of three; and an opponent.
    Perhaps this will do: the Bard attacked the Quartered Seasons, the Severance and the Truce and Terms.
    Quartered Seasons was successfully defended. The attack on the Severance ended up in a horrible mess where nobody won. The Truce and Terms are still in play and this contest itself will be decided by a pattern of three...

    On another note, Careful Yannu seemed rather amenable and easy going - this makes me nervous.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

    Have we seen any mention of the gnomes since Book One? Or have they been discarded as the story evolved?

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    Have we seen any mention of the gnomes since Book One? Or have they been discarded as the story evolved?
    We have not heard of them since.
    But i dont think discarded is the right term. More that they have served their purpose, in explaining the technological statis.

    Edit. New chapter.

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    Perfect display of judgement by the White Knight. Shows why he remains my favorite hero.
    Not going to allow judgement to get pressured by political consideration.

    And actually finding a sentence that solves the issue.
    Tariq's whole purpose is to mentor troubled heroes. And it makes practical use of the Mirrorknights raw power.

    Also liked the rather adult handling of the angel corpse.
    In the end it came down to bartering

    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2020-06-26 at 04:32 AM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Well I'm convinced we've fallen into a pattern of three with these trials. With the Truce and Terms being one side and the other being something unknown for now.

    First trial was a win for the Truce and Terms. Everyone left satisfied.

    Second trial was a draw for the Truce and Terms. Faith in the heroes was a little rattled, and Cordelia is feeling cold towards the Terms, but justice was served and things were done properly.

    Third trial looks to be a loss, shattering Cordelia's faith in the terms, or the strength of the terms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    We have not heard of them since.
    But i dont think discarded is the right term. More that they have served their purpose, in explaining the technological statis.
    I also thought the gnomes were setting rather than story.
    There's lots of dangling threads though: Assassin, Larat, a human civilisation living in the Serenity... Scribe is always a dangling thread as well, so forgettable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Perfect display of judgement by the White Knight. Shows why he remains my favorite hero.
    Not going to allow judgement to get pressured by political consideration.
    If I were Hanno I would have compromised with Cordelia and sentenced Christophe to a week in the cells. This would, quite coincidentally, keep the twit safely out of the way for Red Axe's trial, but Hanno is clearly a better man than I am. This is probably for the best, someone needs to go into the 3rd trial with a morally defensible position.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And actually finding a sentence that solves the issue.
    Tariq's whole purpose is to mentor troubled heroes. And it makes practical use of the Mirrorknights raw power.
    Meh, Saint of Swords wannabe, full of shortcuts to power. Shortcuts to his grotty attitude as well, at least the Saint came by her surliness honestly.
    That said, I do hope it works and that he grows up; he comes across as a teenager who wants to do the right thing.
    Hanno doesn't even have to ask if Tariq will put his life on the line for another student, it's just the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Also liked the rather adult handling of the angel corpse.
    In the end it came down to bartering
    Cat's corrupting influence: confirmed.

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    If I were Hanno I would have compromised with Cordelia and sentenced Christophe to a week in the cells. This would, quite coincidentally, keep the twit safely out of the way for Red Axe's trial, but Hanno is clearly a better man than I am. This is probably for the best, someone needs to go into the 3rd trial with a morally defensible position.
    Well, Hanno is clearly a better man. Just in general. Its his whole deal :D
    And as such, sticking Christoph in a cell denies the Alliance a massive war asset for a week, and are unlikely to make Christophe a better man.
    Skipping him off to grandpa Tariq will meanwhile litterally save lives on the front when the next dragon zombie chokes on him.

    Meh, Saint of Swords wannabe, full of shortcuts to power.
    That and help getting him back on track faster.
    Because.. not to be pedantic. Or well.. to be pedantic. As such Mirrorknight is taking the opposite of a shortcut.
    He is taking the longest road. Its just not a road that will end. He is Above's long term investment.
    Already so tough its Hanno's knee and the stone beneath that gives out before his skull. Imagine 10 years down the line?
    But it does then become paramount that he is handed over to a wise mentor.


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