A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[Mith]

What, he can't be a Goblin Hero? Going on the kinds of stories and acts his culture values he can absolutely be a Hero.. it's just a Goblin Hero would probably be considered a Villain in any other part of Calernia.

But part of the culture he would be exemplifying is 'hide stuff from the Matrons so they don't kill you for being too powerful', so.. I guess that still works?

Further more, he has always been described as rather soft hearted by Goblin standards. At least, I have always read his perspective of "people died who he didn't care for much" when it comes to his soldiers as him trying to numb himself to his own grief over losing soldiers.

I am glad that Cat brought up the idea that the Sisters expand outside the Drow. From what we know of the Tenants of Night (at least how they are evolving now), I am not sure if they really are super Drow specific outside the idea of there are different rules for outsiders and insiders. Then again, I don't know what conflicts would arise for the Sisters to expand like that.

[NigelWalmsley]

They have implied that Names can change from hero to villain or otherwise based on circumstances. The various Independence names are shady at best when their country is fighting their independence wars, but if they own the country they would be heroes. Likewise the White Knight would probably be a Villain if conquering a country but a hero defending the system imposed by the conquerer (see Grey Pilgrim flashback previously.)

I don't think that's quite correct. There are definitely some names that are always Heroes or always Villains. There's not going to be a Hero Dread Emperor or a Villain White Knight. But there are also names that are either morally ambiguous (Archer) or can be claimed by either Heroes or Villains (in just this last chapter, we discovered that the current Apprentice is a Hero).

Also, your specific example definitely seems suspect. In the flashback, the White Knight is calling on angels. Villains don't get to do that.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't think that's quite correct. There are definitely some names that are always Heroes or always Villains. There's not going to be a Hero Dread Emperor or a Villain White Knight. But there are also names that are either morally ambiguous (Archer) or can be claimed by either Heroes or Villains (in just this last chapter, we discovered that the current Apprentice is a Hero).

Also, your specific example definitely seems suspect. In the flashback, the White Knight is calling on angels. Villains don't get to do that.

Yeah, that's what I said? The White Knight was putting down a rebellion by the Blood, which if it was active conquest would be villainous but instead is heroic because of framing.

In other words, there has to be some reframing that goes on because political borders aren't real. If the King of Bandits becomes the King, his role goes from anti-laws to pro-laws even if all else remains the same.

[tyckspoon]

Also, your specific example definitely seems suspect. In the flashback, the White Knight is calling on angels. Villains don't get to do that.

One of the things the story keeps looping back to is that actions aren't necessarily good or heroic just because they're done by a Hero, just as things done by a Villain aren't necessarily evil. There's nothing stopping a Hero from doing things quite a few people would consider ethically questionable. Especially if that Hero is either not closely aligned with a Choir or if that Choir's personality lends itself to possibly shaky Greater Good-type justifications (Contrition, Mercy.. probably Judgment, but so far that's mostly been mitigated by their agent being Hanno, who despite his 'I do not judge' thing seems to be pretty circumspect about only asking for a Judgement in a situation where he already thinks the subject might have reason to be killed.)

Or they're like Endurance, which I can't really see how you'd go about promoting 'Endurance' in the world, so I would expect a Hero backed by that Choir to have a pretty free reign in what they chose to do.

[Mith]

One of the things the story keeps looping back to is that actions aren't necessarily good or heroic just because they're done by a Hero, just as things done by a Villain aren't necessarily evil. There's nothing stopping a Hero from doing things quite a few people would consider ethically questionable. Especially if that Hero is either not closely aligned with a Choir or if that Choir's personality lends itself to possibly shaky Greater Good-type justifications (Contrition, Mercy.. probably Judgment, but so far that's mostly been mitigated by their agent being Hanno, who despite his 'I do not judge' thing seems to be pretty circumspect about only asking for a Judgement in a situation where he already thinks the subject might have reason to be killed.)

Or they're like Endurance, which I can't really see how you'd go about promoting 'Endurance' in the world, so I would expect a Hero backed by that Choir to have a pretty free reign in what they chose to do.

I think "Endurance" as a virtue is the idea of not giving into despair, especially when there is such things as Providence.

[Lord Raziere]

Or they're like Endurance, which I can't really see how you'd go about promoting 'Endurance' in the world, so I would expect a Hero backed by that Choir to have a pretty free reign in what they chose to do.

I mean another way of phrasing Endurance is "Survival". the weird thing about most of the choirs is that they don't say normal virtues like justice or compassion or whatever, the wording seems quite specific in what they are?

Definition of these words:
Contrition: feeling remorseful or penitent
Mercy: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm
Judgment:
1. the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.
2. a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.

there is a double meaning with Judgment. Hanno can fit both definitions.

endurance: the fact or power of enduring an unpleasant or difficult process or situation without giving way.

seems defensive. which I think explains why we don't much of it in this story: because the Choir of Endurance would seem mostly concerned with making sure good continues to exist at all, with making sure that people stick it out and keep strong without giving into baser natures. thats hard to make an antagonist to Catherine out of, since she doesn't care about forcing that kind of narrative, so it'd just end up something like a Hero of Endurance coming across an innocent little town and see Cat's army come on the horizon and being training them to beat them back to keep their little town safe, Cat see what he is doing and knows the narrative of that story is that a villain who screws with the little town being trained by the hero will get their ass handed to them, the underdog principle is just too strong on this one, so she just decides to not attack that village and go around it or trade with it or something, thus it ends on an anti-climactic note of the Hero of Endurance preparing for nothing.

[Eurus]

Re: Robber, and the potential Name thereof:

We know that different cultures have different Names, and Goblin Names were implied to be one of those secrets that the goblin secret police assassinate people to keep secret, weren't they? I mean I don't think anything was ever outright stated, but I seem to recall the story at least mentioning that Cat's not sure whether Goblins get Names or not, let alone what Names they get. It's... hard to imagine them being approved of by a Choir, though. Hmm.

[InvisibleBison]

People have been theorizing about Robber secretly having a Name for years, but I think the most recent update disproves those theories - or at least moves them from "unlikely but possible" to "only possible if the author is lying about something". Why? Because Robber has noticeably aged, and Villains don't age.

[NigelWalmsley]

One of the things the story keeps looping back to is that actions aren't necessarily good or heroic just because they're done by a Hero, just as things done by a Villain aren't necessarily evil.

Certainly. But the particular form of that distinction is between Good (an actual faction in the world) and good (a moral judgment on the part of readers). You can certainly command angels while doing stuff we would consider immoral (such as, I don't know, brainwashing thousands of people into a crusade), but you can't do it as a Villain. Because, despite the name "Good", angels aren't on the side of people who are acting morally, they're on what amounts to a particular side of a philosophical debate.

[Mith]

People have been theorizing about Robber secretly having a Name for years, but I think the most recent update disproves those theories - or at least moves them from "unlikely but possible" to "only possible if the author is lying about something". Why? Because Robber has noticeably aged, and Villains don't age.

Could he be a Hero with the Matrons as a Villain caste? That would make the entire Matron form of government a claimant system, with Robber's attempt of less violent means of getting to the War Collage (gambling for his spot with other contenders) as a rejection of the tradition.

I am not saying he is a Hero now, since he never crystalized into a full Name, but it could be interesting if Robber comes to his own akin to how Cat has been described as a Villain with the heart of Above's agent.

Not saying that is a set thing, but it could be a possible way for that to work. It could be that even if he himself never makes a Name, he starts the grove enough that his legend becomes a Name. Names require a culture, and Cat could be said to have inspired a culture shift amongst the Legionary Goblins akin to what Amadeus did for the Orcs. Or it could be that the Reforms set the great overarching framework for the minorities of Praes to self actualise, and Cat has come through to drive those changes.

A catalyst if you will...

[HolyDraconus]

Latest chapter tugged on some strings. I enjoyed it but damn that cliffhanger. I felt light for most of it, then just started going downhill with a snowball's weight.

[Forum Explorer]

People have been theorizing about Robber secretly having a Name for years, but I think the most recent update disproves those theories - or at least moves them from "unlikely but possible" to "only possible if the author is lying about something". Why? Because Robber has noticeably aged, and Villains don't age.

Except Robber is clearly a Hero. Think of how many times he's just 'happened' to be in the right place to save the day. That is some seriously Heroic levels of Providence right there.

[lord_khaine]

Certainly. But the particular form of that distinction is between Good (an actual faction in the world) and good (a moral judgment on the part of readers). You can certainly command angels while doing stuff we would consider immoral (such as, I don't know, brainwashing thousands of people into a crusade), but you can't do it as a Villain. Because, despite the name "Good", angels aren't on the side of people who are acting morally, they're on what amounts to a particular side of a philosophical debate.

Someone made a quite relevant point about this a while back.
On how the comflict between Above and Below in part could be more accuratly framed as a Order/Chaos conflict.

[HolyDraconus]

Read the most recent chapter 50. Its good. More building

[Mith]

Read the most recent chapter 50. Its good. More building

Spoiler

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I'll be honest, it sort have surprised me. Granted having Hakram remind Cat of her own idealism is a re-occurring theme in this series, but I had thought that Akua's position was obvious even if there wasn't the point of "don't just murder for convenience". But I guess Cat is farther down into the pit than I thought she was.

Of course, there was a different reading of that scene where Cat more deliberately held the scene to bring the issues into the open to bind the group closer to her chosen path (using the meta check of "not a Pivot but Important") but I think Cat was genuinely conflicted about this discussion for that to count.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

On the subject of Endurance, IIRC the rallying cry of their champion (the Stalwart Paladin) was "I suffer so others don't have to"*. So Endurance is not about just personally being tough, but placing yourself between others and that which threatens them.

* Which, it must be said, beats the hell out of "I will never be forgiven".

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

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I'll be honest, it sort have surprised me. Granted having Hakram remind Cat of her own idealism is a re-occurring theme in this series, but I had thought that Akua's position was obvious even if there wasn't the point of "don't just murder for convenience". But I guess Cat is farther down into the pit than I thought she was.

Of course, there was a different reading of that scene where Cat more deliberately held the scene to bring the issues into the open to bind the group closer to her chosen path (using the meta check of "not a Pivot but Important") but I think Cat was genuinely conflicted about this discussion for that to count.

Spoiler: Chapter 50

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I feel she was conflicted about it, but was already leaning towards bringing Scribe into her service. I mean her first instinct was to say yes when Scribe approached her at night. But then she got cold feet and needed a reminder on why that was the correct decision to make.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Chapter 51 Oh No!

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Cat nooooooo! Don't take Hakram's name right when he needs it most.

[NigelWalmsley]

Spoiler

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It's not as simple as Cat destroying Hakram's Name. It's the question of whether Hakram can change himself to accept a version of his Name that's less focused on straight-up combat, and more on logistics. It's the opportunity for a pivot (maybe a change to his third Aspect?), but it's not clear if he'll take it. If he does, that potentially has interesting implications for Orcs as a whole. What does it mean if the first Orcish Named in hundreds of years is someone who doesn't rely on personal strength at all?

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

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It's not as simple as Cat destroying Hakram's Name. It's the question of whether Hakram can change himself to accept a version of his Name that's less focused on straight-up combat, and more on logistics. It's the opportunity for a pivot (maybe a change to his third Aspect?), but it's not clear if he'll take it. If he does, that potentially has interesting implications for Orcs as a whole. What does it mean if the first Orcish Named in hundreds of years is someone who doesn't rely on personal strength at all?

Spoiler: Yes but

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Scribe has the same role, which we see here with Cat refusing to put on the boots Scribe left for her. Scribe filling his role is a real threat to him.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"me, standing in judgement over others. Delivering it sword in hand."

I'm getting vibes of Pratchett's Carrot "personal isn't the same as important" Ironfoundersson, as he could have been if he had gone for the Ruler of Ankh position. In the words of Vimes (well, thoughts): "[...]it dawned on him that while Ankh in the past had its share of evil rulers, and simply bad rulers, it had never yet come under the heel of a good ruler. That might be the most terrifying prospect of all"

I don't think it is going to be anywhere close to it, but there is a vibe of "true justice is terrifying". Not to mention it'd be a kick in the teeth of coin-boy, if suddenly his counterpart is the one with the Name-backed justice mandate.

Grey Wolf

[The Glyphstone]

I'm doubtful on the last one, because she's still going to be a Villain. Judgement and Justice aren't necessarily synonymous, especially for a villainous Name.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm doubtful on the last one, because she's still going to be a Villain. Judgement and Justice aren't necessarily synonymous, especially for a villainous Name.

Fair, but I keep thinking she's slowly moving towards somewhere halfway between Hero and Villain. I think I get that feeling from the fact that her devotion to the gods below is nonexistent beyond choice of curse words. But I accept that feeling is hardly universal. It wouldn't be the first time the text has led me down the garden path.

Grey Wolf

[Forum Explorer]

Fair, but I keep thinking she's slowly moving towards somewhere halfway between Hero and Villain. I think I get that feeling from the fact that her devotion to the gods below is nonexistent beyond choice of curse words. But I accept that feeling is hardly universal. It wouldn't be the first time the text has led me down the garden path.

Grey Wolf

My personal bet is that her new Name is going to be something like the Arbiter of Names, or something like that. And that she'll basically become the new version of the Wandering Bard for the new age.

[HolyDraconus]

My personal bet is that her new Name is going to be something like the Arbiter of Names, or something like that. And that she'll basically become the new version of the Wandering Bard for the new age.

Didn't she reject that though when she was with the Bard? Like I felt that the Bard was TRYING to make her into it's successor and Cat dodged that.

[tyckspoon]

Didn't she reject that though when she was with the Bard? Like I felt that the Bard was TRYING to make her into it's successor and Cat dodged that.

Doesn't mean she can't get a similar Name and Role - it'd just help cement 'On my terms or none' as part of her aspects/Role/preferred stories, which is already a very Catherine kind of sentiment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Didn't she reject that though when she was with the Bard? Like I felt that the Bard was TRYING to make her into it's successor and Cat dodged that.

WB tried to force her into a music-based name that would have been WB’s antagonist, which would give WB the advantage since heroes usually win those direct connections. This would be a more generic “mover and shaker” role, IIUC

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

Cat has been breaking Patterns of Three by recognising her mirroring with her counterparts and breaking those expectations that are built into those patterns from the beginning. She recognised how she has mirrored with various contemporaries over the course of her rise to power (Lone Swordsman and Heiress/Diabolist as both the champion of Callow, and the rejection of Old Evil, the Grey Pilgrim as the advisor/ mentor role at the Name level, and now at the level of binding and breaking the old monsters of the Wandering Bard/Dead King). Cat's central goal/madness that drives the power of a Name, hasn't really changed; it has just grown and refined itself into something that the current Pattern doesn't really contain.

It would be interesting if the response is to make her the new equivalent of the Wandering Bard, but as single immortal creature, rather than a Name that just possesses new bodies with a purpose and Name dream so strong that it essentially is a continuous stream of consciousness.

Edit: Musing/probably wrong thought paths on the Drow

I noted earlier that it is interesting that the Crows were in a position of being able to gain converts (keeping Cat as a semi exception; her role is at least semi unique). I do wonder what the cost is with branching outside of the Drow, since strife/growth from conflict is a part of the Tenants. Granted, we do not know those Tenants in full, but considering how Cat has created a shift in perspective on the tenants with the democratising of the sigils, what keeps sigils from being mixed race? Drow already do not think in terms of family/romance ties, but only in platonic ideals of a tribe as a focus on a single goal.

Really, I just wonder if the end of the book will see the Callowan House Insurgent rebrand as the House of Morning. There are long shadows at dawn and bright stars at Twilight.

This may require Mirror Knight/Dawn Strider to make some reparation work to the drow.

[Fable Wright]

My theory? Chess motif.

The Black Knight moves in unique ways to take away key pieces. He's Below's Hatchetman.

The Black Queen moves with overwhelming force in any direction she's needed, and can take on most any piece.

My theory is that she'll be the named Black Queen, charged to stand judgement over the board. If someone is at risk of breaking it, she is their judge, jury, and executioner. Whether they're summoning angels or demons, be they choir or god.

For bonus points, she can already move as a Bishop, courtesy the Crows. All she needs is for her name to let her move as a Rook. For double bonus points, it was implied that the White Knight was designed to hunt the Black Queen. Which... well, again, chess.

[Tvtyrant]

Cat has been breaking Patterns of Three by recognising her mirroring with her counterparts and breaking those expectations that are built into those patterns from the beginning. She recognised how she has mirrored with various contemporaries over the course of her rise to power (Lone Swordsman and Heiress/Diabolist as both the champion of Callow, and the rejection of Old Evil, the Grey Pilgrim as the advisor/ mentor role at the Name level, and now at the level of binding and breaking the old monsters of the Wandering Bard/Dead King). Cat's central goal/madness that drives the power of a Name, hasn't really changed; it has just grown and refined itself into something that the current Pattern doesn't really contain.

It would be interesting if the response is to make her the new equivalent of the Wandering Bard, but as single immortal creature, rather than a Name that just possesses new bodies with a purpose and Name dream so strong that it essentially is a continuous stream of consciousness.

Edit: Musing/probably wrong thought paths on the Drow

I noted earlier that it is interesting that the Crows were in a position of being able to gain converts (keeping Cat as a semi exception; her role is at least semi unique). I do wonder what the cost is with branching outside of the Drow, since strife/growth from conflict is a part of the Tenants. Granted, we do not know those Tenants in full, but considering how Cat has created a shift in perspective on the tenants with the democratising of the sigils, what keeps sigils from being mixed race? Drow already do not think in terms of family/romance ties, but only in platonic ideals of a tribe as a focus on a single goal.

Really, I just wonder if the end of the book will see the Callowan House Insurgent rebrand as the House of Morning. There are long shadows at dawn and bright stars at Twilight.

This may require Mirror Knight/Dawn Strider to make some reparation work to the drow.

I imagine the fact that Drow live very long lives, and need to be killed to collect their Night is a factor. Imagine if Goblins died of old age or accidents regularly and Night just bled out of the system.