A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[Mith]

The only way I see the Accords not becoming an institution is because Heroes get into a position that they can wipe out all of Below's influence and win without Below getting it's due.

I say this because I feel like Cat's council with the Villians really show the buy in that Villians have to the Accords as a means to survive. The knowledge, resources, and skills of this war won't go away, and the Accords are the only way villians will be on the inside of it.

And Cat becoming the sole enforcer runs entirely opposite to the theme of the story in my opinion. I have always read it as intitutions as the bigger drive for progress than any one person.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoiler: Chapter 61: Adouber

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I think this is the first time I'll ever read a story about how no plan survives contact with the enemy... from the PoV of said enemy. I am thoroughly enjoying just how giddy Cat becomes the moment she knows what her opponent is up to, thus giving her the chance to just put all the spokes in the world through the Dead King's wheels.

GW

[McNum]

The Dead King may have made a mistake here. So careful to only offer conventional war, to not give providence a hook to tear him down. Just slowly grind down the enemy armies and win.

Except that at some point means cornering Catherine. Has that ever gone well for the one doing that? When Cat has little left to lose, she wins by grit and audacity. And facing slow annihilation by war? Yup, that's where Catherine fights the best. Facing a slow inevitable doom gives her plenty of time to get creative, start green fires, and drop lakes on armies.

[Mith]

Part of me does wonder if this is going to be "it all goes wrong" since it has been pointed out that this is a similar set up as Prince's Graveyard as far as the 11th Hour last minute save. However, I also feel that if the Dead King somehow had a sufficient counter to Cat's plan, it would kind of be a n out of nowhere pull, since we have the two in setting experts on tactics involving the metaphysics of the setting (since Juniper is still the sharper general in terms of mundane war) devising an effective strategy.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Dead King may have made a mistake here. So careful to only offer conventional war, to not give providence a hook to tear him down. Just slowly grind down the enemy armies and win.

Except that at some point means cornering Catherine. Has that ever gone well for the one doing that? When Cat has little left to lose, she wins by grit and audacity. And facing slow annihilation by war? Yup, that's where Catherine fights the best. Facing a slow inevitable doom gives her plenty of time to get creative, start green fires, and drop lakes on armies.

Hmm, a war of attrition is exactly how you want to fight heroes, wearing them down without giving providence an opportunity to save their asses. However, I think it might be the opposite of how you want to fight a villain; when's the last time you ever saw a plan to slowly, carefully, and safely defeat a villain work? A villain will always pull something to turn the tables if given enough time to do so. The Dead King may have gotten too used to fighting heroic Crusades; Cat requires a different narrative on the strategic level.

[HolyDraconus]

Oof. there's alot of emotions there. new chapters and all that.

[Mith]

Spoiler: Chapter 61

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I have mixed feelings about that exchange between Hakram and Cat.

I do get that Hakram has his limits as to what he can take from Cat's worries and guilt complex. However, he also doesn't give her room to really ease off the issue. Cat's defined her actions by "want of the woman, duties of the queen" and I feel like this exchange while theoretically easing tensions of trust, really just keeps Cat in a spot of panic.

This isn't even a "Cat needs Hakram specifically as emotional support". It's also the fact that Hakram's strongest support for Cat and her goals has been as a set of eyes and planning independent of her but on the same wavelength. Cat used Hakram as an anchor point in Arsenal, not as a force of military might.

I am not saying it's not well written as a scene and story beat. It's still one that's a bit rough to read in the "twice a week update rate.

I wonder if instead of a lost Name, this instead becomes a realignment period, similar to Cat's second tenure as Squire. I guess that's similar enough to the "Power's return with sufficent clarity", but I think of it a rebuilding of their own relationship.

[HolyDraconus]

One thing that's been bugging me is why they haven't just... snatched a dead body before the Dead King can grab it and just do a soul swap for Hakram. Its theoretically proven: Cat's father has his own ripped and placed back, and it was plausible that the Folly can get hers reinserted. I would understand being squeamish with living people, and its not like they can't magically alter the body (or even SURGICALLY, incase no magic zone shenanigans again), and considering how much he means to Cat I wouldn't even be surprised if the Hierophant takes extra care to make certain nothing happens that isn't supposed to happen. Outside of Severance actually cleaving the soul so the transfer would be pointless, I just feel that at this point its a battle that doesn't need to be fought. Doing it puts him back in the fight where he wants to be anyway, and with their Villains dropping, when they was already outnumbered, it would even the Balance a bit. Thoughts?

[Aresneo]

One thing that's been bugging me is why they haven't just... snatched a dead body before the Dead King can grab it and just do a soul swap for Hakram. Its theoretically proven: Cat's father has his own ripped and placed back, and it was plausible that the Folly can get hers reinserted. I would understand being squeamish with living people, and its not like they can't magically alter the body (or even SURGICALLY, incase no magic zone shenanigans again), and considering how much he means to Cat I wouldn't even be surprised if the Hierophant takes extra care to make certain nothing happens that isn't supposed to happen. Outside of Severance actually cleaving the soul so the transfer would be pointless, I just feel that at this point its a battle that doesn't need to be fought. Doing it puts him back in the fight where he wants to be anyway, and with their Villains dropping, when they was already outnumbered, it would even the Balance a bit. Thoughts?

The time Black's soul was removed required the abilities of a specific hero, who I'm not sure is still alive or if they are is probably somewhere else, it was also putting his soul back into his still living body. Putting Harkram's soul into a repaired corpse is likely going to require necromancy and turn him into some undead state which the Dead King could likely subvert. While similar to Akua's current state she is probably safe thanks to her connection with Sev Noc, but Harkram lacks that.

[Forum Explorer]

The time Black's soul was removed required the abilities of a specific hero, who I'm not sure is still alive or if they are is probably somewhere else, it was also putting his soul back into his still living body. Putting Harkram's soul into a repaired corpse is likely going to require necromancy and turn him into some undead state which the Dead King could likely subvert. While similar to Akua's current state she is probably safe thanks to her connection with Sev Noc, but Harkram lacks that.

And even if they can gurantee that the Dead King can't usurp the body, you've got the problems of being undead. No more food, sex, booze. Hakram is very much alive and does enjoy all those things, for all that we don't see him do it.

[tyckspoon]

The time Black's soul was removed required the abilities of a specific hero, who I'm not sure is still alive or if they are is probably somewhere else, it was also putting his soul back into his still living body. Putting Harkram's soul into a repaired corpse is likely going to require necromancy and turn him into some undead state which the Dead King could likely subvert. While similar to Akua's current state she is probably safe thanks to her connection with Sev Noc, but Harkram lacks that.

Handling souls does not appear to require any particular talent, once you accept/are aware that a soul is a discrete item that can be interacted with; I seem to recall a statement (possibly just implication?) that Black's soul was partially damaged to the rough/unskilled nature of how it was extracted, but that just points out that you don't actually have to be very special to do it. And Cat would have the assistance of possibly the greatest possible subject-matter experts to work with shy of the Dead King himself, with Akua (the once Diabolist and trained in Praesi necromancy), Masego (who performed soul-surgery on Catherine back when he was still 'merely' the Apprentice and had not achieved the fullness of his eventual Name), and Sve Noc (who have taking, redistributing, and repurposing the very essence of things as the core nature of their power.) If Hakram agreed that sticking him into another body was a desirable method of restoring him than I do not see any reason it couldn't be done.

.. easy to guess at possible undesirable side effects of attempting it, tho, short of getting him a full bodily resurrection/rebuild, and I don't think he can wrangle one out of those out of Above. (I feel like any of the other powers we know of that could do something similar would effectively just be making him into a Revenant. Unless maybe they kill him and he Find + Rampages his way out of the afterlife to return to his Warlord's side. Wonder if there are any Orc myths about that, it seems like their kind of resurrection story..?)

[Forum Explorer]

Handling souls does not appear to require any particular talent, once you accept/are aware that a soul is a discrete item that can be interacted with; I seem to recall a statement (possibly just implication?) that Black's soul was partially damaged to the rough/unskilled nature of how it was extracted, but that just points out that you don't actually have to be very special to do it. And Cat would have the assistance of possibly the greatest possible subject-matter experts to work with shy of the Dead King himself, with Akua (the once Diabolist and trained in Praesi necromancy), Masego (who performed soul-surgery on Catherine back when he was still 'merely' the Apprentice and had not achieved the fullness of his eventual Name), and Sve Noc (who have taking, redistributing, and repurposing the very essence of things as the core nature of their power.) If Hakram agreed that sticking him into another body was a desirable method of restoring him than I do not see any reason it couldn't be done.

.. easy to guess at possible undesirable side effects of attempting it, tho, short of getting him a full bodily resurrection/rebuild, and I don't think he can wrangle one out of those out of Above. (I feel like any of the other powers we know of that could do something similar would effectively just be making him into a Revenant. Unless maybe they kill him and he Find + Rampages his way out of the afterlife to return to his Warlord's side. Wonder if there are any Orc myths about that, it seems like their kind of resurrection story..?)

To be exact, they removed Black's soul by the Saint of Swords cutting it out of him, so it was hardly an ordinary person who did it. And yeah, I remember that statement as well, that Black was damaged by the rough treatment his soul endured, so even someone with a lot of power and skill still bungled it. Not that she would have been trying to be gentle though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Unless maybe they kill him and he Find + Rampages his way out of the afterlife to return to his Warlord's side. Wonder if there are any Orc myths about that, it seems like their kind of resurrection story..?

Now that you mention it, Seek, Stand, and Rampage are all pretty much perfect aspects for an Escape From Hell plot, with only the Lone Swordsman's (and later Cat's) Rise being better. I don't think that that's how the afterlife works in PGtE, though, and since his power source is the Gods Below he would be trying to escape, I don't see that working out so well.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Klaus and the new chapter

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A poster named Liliet made a great comment under the new chapter in regards to Klaus banking on getting a Name.

"The repeated moniker of Iron Prince, which fits him to a T, has been used by both of the Named this chapter to refer to him. It is also used in narration about him at the end at the climactic bit, in much the same manner as Cordelia once upon a time “signed the ****ing order”. Which was later confirmed to be Warden of the West foreshadowing in this exact manner: when it fits perfectly in the narrative to use that address for the person when they’re doing the very Them thing, that’s the kind of thing that Name is.

He also has the requisite story weight. Unlike Abigail before the armies split, he’s not just one of multiple commanders: he’s THE commander, the one everyone knows bears the onus of responsibility for everthing that happens. And he’s not just a someone, he’s famous, he’s THE Iron Prince to Procer entire after winning the civil war for Cordelia.

And the Role fits with the Name. Hard people making hard decisions is the whole Lycaonese narrative, and Iron Prince is the Name about that, it’s what the “iron” part refers to. He’s doing exactly what people telling stories generations down the line will talk about him doing, for the exact, very iconic reasons.

He’s in a story, and the way he’s being addressed is hinting that the Named around him see it too.

Also, the Blood/blood thing Barrow Sword was talking about might be referring to that, though I’ll listen if you have an alternative interpretation."

[tyckspoon]

Now that you mention it, Seek, Stand, and Rampage are all pretty much perfect aspects for an Escape From Hell plot, with only the Lone Swordsman's (and later Cat's) Rise being better. I don't think that that's how the afterlife works in PGtE, though, and since his power source is the Gods Below he would be trying to escape, I don't see that working out so well.

Well, resurrection is a thing, and we know souls exist as a discrete entity from their bodies, so there is some kind of existence-after-death. Admittedly we don't know specifically where souls go when their physical body dies - 'Heaven' and 'Hell' in this universe aren't afterlife destinations, they're just the layers of reality where the Angels and Devils live. But as for " since his power source is the Gods Below he would be trying to escape, I don't see that working out so well..." Why not? Might Makes Right is one of the tenets of Below. If you want to be alive and have enough power to smash your way back to the mortal realm, clearly you deserve to be alive.

(Although considering that 'become a god and/or undead' seems to be the preferred villainous route to attempted immortality rather than 'punch the Gods Below in the face until they agree to let you go back', I'm inclined to think the afterlife physics of the universe do not in fact work in a way that permits that.)

[Mith]

Spoiler: Klaus and the new chapter

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A poster named Liliet made a great comment under the new chapter in regards to Klaus banking on getting a Name.

"The repeated moniker of Iron Prince, which fits him to a T, has been used by both of the Named this chapter to refer to him. It is also used in narration about him at the end at the climactic bit, in much the same manner as Cordelia once upon a time “signed the ****ing order”. Which was later confirmed to be Warden of the West foreshadowing in this exact manner: when it fits perfectly in the narrative to use that address for the person when they’re doing the very Them thing, that’s the kind of thing that Name is.

He also has the requisite story weight. Unlike Abigail before the armies split, he’s not just one of multiple commanders: he’s THE commander, the one everyone knows bears the onus of responsibility for everthing that happens. And he’s not just a someone, he’s famous, he’s THE Iron Prince to Procer entire after winning the civil war for Cordelia.

And the Role fits with the Name. Hard people making hard decisions is the whole Lycaonese narrative, and Iron Prince is the Name about that, it’s what the “iron” part refers to. He’s doing exactly what people telling stories generations down the line will talk about him doing, for the exact, very iconic reasons.

He’s in a story, and the way he’s being addressed is hinting that the Named around him see it too.

Also, the Blood/blood thing Barrow Sword was talking about might be referring to that, though I’ll listen if you have an alternative interpretation."

Spoiler: Klaus

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I also wonder if Klaus is going to become one of the Damned, as this narrative is very similar to the Scorched Apostate's origin.

The reason this occurs to me, is because I wonder if Cat will also get a narrative boost in the success as the Overseer of the Damned as everyone gets their due. Her sticking to that for everyone, including the likes of the Wicked Enchanter, means that now she gains a narrative boost in the Role of High Officer over the Damned.

She has enough in the sense of riding as reinforcement of a besieged force, but I don't think we have the same sense of overt forces of Below outside of Wekensa's "Give me my Due!" speech and Hanno's mother.

Again, I realise there are enough other factors at play that this may not be necessary, but it would be interesting as Cat takes on the overseer role to have the driving effects of "right place at the right time for those in her charge" that Tariq has for Heroes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoiler: Klaus and the new chapter

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A poster named Liliet made a great comment under the new chapter in regards to Klaus banking on getting a Name.

"The repeated moniker of Iron Prince, which fits him to a T, has been used by both of the Named this chapter to refer to him. It is also used in narration about him at the end at the climactic bit, in much the same manner as Cordelia once upon a time “signed the ****ing order”. Which was later confirmed to be Warden of the West foreshadowing in this exact manner: when it fits perfectly in the narrative to use that address for the person when they’re doing the very Them thing, that’s the kind of thing that Name is.

He also has the requisite story weight. Unlike Abigail before the armies split, he’s not just one of multiple commanders: he’s THE commander, the one everyone knows bears the onus of responsibility for everthing that happens. And he’s not just a someone, he’s famous, he’s THE Iron Prince to Procer entire after winning the civil war for Cordelia.

And the Role fits with the Name. Hard people making hard decisions is the whole Lycaonese narrative, and Iron Prince is the Name about that, it’s what the “iron” part refers to. He’s doing exactly what people telling stories generations down the line will talk about him doing, for the exact, very iconic reasons.

He’s in a story, and the way he’s being addressed is hinting that the Named around him see it too.

Also, the Blood/blood thing Barrow Sword was talking about might be referring to that, though I’ll listen if you have an alternative interpretation."

Is there any example of a Named coming into their Name this late in life, though? All of the prominent ones I can think of off the top of my head seem to have come into their names in their 20s, yes there are a few old ones (on the Good side, since the Evil ones stop ageing entirely), but none of them started old, that I can think of, and their age is just an indication that they're just very good at what they do.

GW

[Mith]

Is there any example of a Named coming into their Name this late in life, though? All of the prominent ones I can think of off the top of my head seem to have come into their names in their 20s, yes there are a few old ones (on the Good side, since the Evil ones stop ageing entirely), but none of them started old, that I can think of, and their age is just an indication that they're just very good at what they do.

GW

The Royal Conjuror is a solid example iirc, since mh understanding from that 5 stories chapter is that they all only come into thier Names by the end of the chapter.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler

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so the way i read this new chapter is the White Knight is starting to doubt? Since Justice is still hampered him taking justice into his own hands sounds like a recipe for disaster. So much so that I am not surprised that his connection to the Light is ebbing. I wonder if he could Fall though. From what this novel has shown me about this world, good doesn't necessarily mean Good or Right. But would he really do something that would cost him his Name?

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

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so the way i read this new chapter is the White Knight is starting to doubt? Since Justice is still hampered him taking justice into his own hands sounds like a recipe for disaster. So much so that I am not surprised that his connection to the Light is ebbing. I wonder if he could Fall though. From what this novel has shown me about this world, good doesn't necessarily mean Good or Right. But would he really do something that would cost him his Name?

Spoiler

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It's not doubt that there is a Justice IMO. It is realization that inaction in the face of doubt is still inaction. He is complacent in mass murder because he didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything because he wasn't certain in his course of action. "I do not judge" also means "I do not act."

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

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so the way i read this new chapter is the White Knight is starting to doubt? Since Justice is still hampered him taking justice into his own hands sounds like a recipe for disaster. So much so that I am not surprised that his connection to the Light is ebbing. I wonder if he could Fall though. From what this novel has shown me about this world, good doesn't necessarily mean Good or Right. But would he really do something that would cost him his Name?

Spoiler: White Knight

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I doubt the White Knight will actually fall. I think it's more doubting his position. He's Heaven's Enforcer of Justice, but without Heaven's mandate what even is justice?

And really that is a good question, because every culture in the world has a different answer to that question. With answers varying so much that it can be doubtful that justice actually exists at all. For someone who operates on a level above most laws, that is really troubling and hard to deal with.

Then you get into stuff of necessary evils taken in the moment for the greater good. Like this whole situation with The Iron Prince. Hanno stood by and let it happen, because he recognized that something needed to be done. And while maybe Klaus' actions were overly harsh and perhaps there was a better path, Hanno certainly wasn't offering any solutions. Kinda like what happened with Cat and Cordelia. Hanno didn't offer a better path, so they did what they thought was necessary. And while he doesn't really approve, no one will listen to his criticism because he didn't even try and offer something else.

I think what Hanno needs to learn is that you can't just passively expect people to be just and good. You need to actively forge a better path, and than actively guide people on that path. Because that seems to be a problem with the Heroes in general. They just passively react to existing problems and expect to win through the grace of the Heavens. There are very few examples of Heroes proactively trying to understand and foil Villains, before their plots even begin.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler

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It's not doubt that there is a Justice IMO. It is realization that inaction in the face of doubt is still inaction. He is complacent in mass murder because he didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything because he wasn't certain in his course of action. "I do not judge" also means "I do not act."

Spoiler: yeah

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He stood by when the Grey Pilgrim created a super plague just to capture Black. Where was those that was innocent's Justice? Did they deserve to die cause they happened to be in the same area?

Spoiler: White Knight

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I doubt the White Knight will actually fall. I think it's more doubting his position. He's Heaven's Enforcer of Justice, but without Heaven's mandate what even is justice?

And really that is a good question, because every culture in the world has a different answer to that question. With answers varying so much that it can be doubtful that justice actually exists at all. For someone who operates on a level above most laws, that is really troubling and hard to deal with.

Then you get into stuff of necessary evils taken in the moment for the greater good. Like this whole situation with The Iron Prince. Hanno stood by and let it happen, because he recognized that something needed to be done. And while maybe Klaus' actions were overly harsh and perhaps there was a better path, Hanno certainly wasn't offering any solutions. Kinda like what happened with Cat and Cordelia. Hanno didn't offer a better path, so they did what they thought was necessary. And while he doesn't really approve, no one will listen to his criticism because he didn't even try and offer something else.

I think what Hanno needs to learn is that you can't just passively expect people to be just and good. You need to actively forge a better path, and than actively guide people on that path. Because that seems to be a problem with the Heroes in general. They just passively react to existing problems and expect to win through the grace of the Heavens. There are very few examples of Heroes proactively trying to understand and foil Villains, before their plots even begin.

Spoiler: I see what you mean but

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I kinda disagree. He CAN fall. Knowledge is like that, and I wouldn't be surprised that he asked just the right questions for him to go splat. Hells, he should be learning that right now by questioning why Justice hasn't answered ANY of his questions. In a way, the madman that usurped Justice is right. And if White Knight comes to that realization I believe it will be then that he will be stripped of his powers like he was a 3rd edition paladin.

[Rydiro]

Spoiler

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It's not doubt that there is a Justice IMO. It is realization that inaction in the face of doubt is still inaction. He is complacent in mass murder because he didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything because he wasn't certain in his course of action. "I do not judge" also means "I do not act."

I think heroes draw their power from doing what they believe is right and good. Thats why the mirror knight can get away with his atrocious choices. He really is that deluded and full of himself. With a childs understanding of people, politics and consequences.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: yeah

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He stood by when the Grey Pilgrim created a super plague just to capture Black. Where was those that was innocent's Justice? Did they deserve to die cause they happened to be in the same area?

Spoiler: I see what you mean but

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I kinda disagree. He CAN fall. Knowledge is like that, and I wouldn't be surprised that he asked just the right questions for him to go splat. Hells, he should be learning that right now by questioning why Justice hasn't answered ANY of his questions. In a way, the madman that usurped Justice is right. And if White Knight comes to that realization I believe it will be then that he will be stripped of his powers like he was a 3rd edition paladin.

Spoiler: Eh

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There is can fall and will fall. Can the White Knight fall? Certainly. Will he though? That's I doubt. He losing power because he's doubting himself, not because he's doubting the Heaven's or the Seraphim. And it might take some prompting and effort on his part, but I'd expect him to come to a conclusion about what he needs to do and thus regain his power.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Dynamism

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So White Knight is evolving, and Tariq doesn't want Catherine to hit B-button.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler: Dynamism

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So White Knight is evolving, and Tariq doesn't want Catherine to hit B-button.

Spoiler: on the other hand

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Tariq admitted, like i guessed earlier, that the White Knight CAN lose his Name if he botches this up. So when super old hero of Good says he can Fall, and asks the second penultimate Villain to not meddle, it means something. The more that this goes on the more I will believe that Cat is going to be the only one holding up the Accords. Hanno has a real chance of screwing this whole thing, and if he Falls, the bloody Terms will die. At that point i wont be surprised that the only thing keeping the Named from fighting is that Pilgrim steps up in the White Knight's place till its over. And people already doubt him. Hells, if Hanno Falls.... war or not, its going to be a bloodbath of Named.

[MammonAzrael]

Spoiler: on the other hand

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Tariq admitted, like i guessed earlier, that the White Knight CAN lose his Name if he botches this up. So when super old hero of Good says he can Fall, and asks the second penultimate Villain to not meddle, it means something. The more that this goes on the more I will believe that Cat is going to be the only one holding up the Accords. Hanno has a real chance of screwing this whole thing, and if he Falls, the bloody Terms will die. At that point i wont be surprised that the only thing keeping the Named from fighting is that Pilgrim steps up in the White Knight's place till its over. And people already doubt him. Hells, if Hanno Falls.... war or not, its going to be a bloodbath of Named.

Spoiler

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While this conversation does address the possibility of the White Knight falling, I don't think that's the main thrust. Narratively, the Grey Pilgrim's bet that he will come through the journey renewed and stronger is much more likely (albeit with some kind of twist). I think more relevant is the fact that Hanno and Tariq are, effectively, the two most impactful and relevant heroes on Calernia, here they are going to the preeminent villian (that isn't Sealed Evil in a Can) to ask for non-interference. In a different framing, they are seeking Cat's permission over an internal "hero matter" because they recognize her ability to impact it, which is a big hunk of narrative power to feed her burgeoning Name as some sort of neutral Arbiter of Names.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: on the other hand

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Tariq admitted, like i guessed earlier, that the White Knight CAN lose his Name if he botches this up. So when super old hero of Good says he can Fall, and asks the second penultimate Villain to not meddle, it means something. The more that this goes on the more I will believe that Cat is going to be the only one holding up the Accords. Hanno has a real chance of screwing this whole thing, and if he Falls, the bloody Terms will die. At that point i wont be surprised that the only thing keeping the Named from fighting is that Pilgrim steps up in the White Knight's place till its over. And people already doubt him. Hells, if Hanno Falls.... war or not, its going to be a bloodbath of Named.

Spoiler

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It's going to be anyway. No system is solid until it cracks somehow and enforcement is tested. The Accords were always going to have an MCU style conflict where heroes and villains fight together against heroes and villains, remaking the lines of conflict from pro-above and below to pro or anti accord.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoiler

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While this conversation does address the possibility of the White Knight falling, I don't think that's the main thrust. Narratively, the Grey Pilgrim's bet that he will come through the journey renewed and stronger is much more likely (albeit with some kind of twist). I think more relevant is the fact that Hanno and Tariq are, effectively, the two most impactful and relevant heroes on Calernia, here they are going to the preeminent villian (that isn't Sealed Evil in a Can) to ask for non-interference. In a different framing, they are seeking Cat's permission over an internal "hero matter" because they recognize her ability to impact it, which is a big hunk of narrative power to feed her burgeoning Name as some sort of neutral Arbiter of Names.

Spoiler: yeah i see

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thats true, but its plausible that her meddling could very well ensure he Falls. She has a LOT of power in this, and on how he could change. And its not too far of a stretch for him to become a premier Villain. Hells, look at Anakin. Not exactly the same but it can happen.

Spoiler

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It's going to be anyway. No system is solid until it cracks somehow and enforcement is tested. The Accords were always going to have an MCU style conflict where heroes and villains fight together against heroes and villains, remaking the lines of conflict from pro-above and below to pro or anti accord.

Spoiler

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but what i mean is that, up to this point, she wanted something that will last after her and without her. With how things are moving its possible that she's going to have to try again, or, she's going to have to stand alone doing this.

[Mith]

Spoiler: yeah i see

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thats true, but its plausible that her meddling could very well ensure he Falls. She has a LOT of power in this, and on how he could change. And its not too far of a stretch for him to become a premier Villain. Hells, look at Anakin. Not exactly the same but it can happen.

Spoiler

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but what i mean is that, up to this point, she wanted something that will last after her and without her. With how things are moving its possible that she's going to have to try again, or, she's going to have to stand alone doing this.

Spoiler: Personal musing on the outcome of this arc

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I don't think Cat is going to be entirely hands off. However, I think one theme that is going through this book is Cat mending rifts between her and close companions (or at least getting the break set so that it can heal). It would be interesting if instead of meddling as a villain (the demands of the queen) she just offers honest support. Especially if it is a surprise birthday present (return of the surprise of Hanno's gift of wakeleaf followed by the rather frank discussion). Hanno distrusts Cat because he sees her as being to "big picture" to care about people, which to me is the balance between demands of what she sees as a personal duty and what she wants to do. It would be a nice bundle of reciprocation, in my opinion.