A Practical Guide to Evil II: The Last Thread's On Fire, But It's Not Our Fault

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: yeah i see

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thats true, but its plausible that her meddling could very well ensure he Falls. She has a LOT of power in this, and on how he could change. And its not too far of a stretch for him to become a premier Villain. Hells, look at Anakin. Not exactly the same but it can happen.

Spoiler

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but what i mean is that, up to this point, she wanted something that will last after her and without her. With how things are moving its possible that she's going to have to try again, or, she's going to have to stand alone doing this.

Spoiler

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I don't think that's where it is going. The Truce and Terms are going to win, too many people are invested now for them to fail. There is going to be a horrific civil war to keep them after they kill off the KotD, and Cat's Name is going to become an issue. She can't be Queen of the Named for the Truce to do what she wants, which is turn power over to institutions from super heroes. Eventually Cat has to leave for the T&T to actually do their job, but with how jealous Cat is of power how is she going to do that?

In other words, the Girl Who Climbs the Tower is a very apt song for Cat even if she is not in Praes. The T&T are about reducing the effect of cosmic conflicts on the common person, but so far she has:

1. Worked with the invaders of her home to fight off a Crusade and then watched them destroy the breadbasket of her rival.
2. Helped unleash the King of the Dead on all civilians on the continent.
3. Unsettled the Drow who are stronger than Named and promised them land.
4. Helped unleash several brutal civil wars across the continent.

She's 0/4 in making the common person's lives better, and 4/0 for concentrating power into her own hands. Her Name looks like it will help with the Latter, the question is if any of this helps the former.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

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I don't think that's where it is going. The Truce and Terms are going to win, too many people are invested now for them to fail. There is going to be a horrific civil war to keep them after they kill off the KotD, and Cat's Name is going to become an issue. She can't be Queen of the Named for the Truce to do what she wants, which is turn power over to institutions from super heroes. Eventually Cat has to leave for the T&T to actually do their job, but with how jealous Cat is of power how is she going to do that?

In other words, the Girl Who Climbs the Tower is a very apt song for Cat even if she is not in Praes. The T&T are about reducing the effect of cosmic conflicts on the common person, but so far she has:

1. Worked with the invaders of her home to fight off a Crusade and then watched them destroy the breadbasket of her rival.
2. Helped unleash the King of the Dead on all civilians on the continent.
3. Unsettled the Drow who are stronger than Named and promised them land.
4. Helped unleash several brutal civil wars across the continent.

She's 0/4 in making the common person's lives better, and 4/0 for concentrating power into her own hands. Her Name looks like it will help with the Latter, the question is if any of this helps the former.

Spoiler: Counterpoint

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1. Fair, though it's not like she really could have stopped that except by allowing Callow to be subjected by Procer
2. On the contrary, it has been made clear that the Dead King would've been unleashed no matter what. While she would've unleashed him in a more restrained fashion, he ended up being unleashed entirely by Malicia with no input from Cat at all.
3. She saved the common drow from being exterminated en mass by the Dwarves and has helped establish a culture for the drow that isn't just rampant murder and backstabbing.
4. Which civil wars? Praes? She was involved in that sure, but Praes is a sack full of intelligent wet tigers at the best of times. Procer? She's actively working to stop a civil war from happening. The Dominion? Is stable. The Free Cities? She did basically nothing to cause that. She didn't do anything to prevent it to be fair, but she didn't cause it either. I guess that leaves Callow itself, which happened before the Truce and Terms were even a thought in her head. Back than she thought Named ruling were perfectly fine.

As for actually making the common folk's lives better, she's squashed the corruption of the Praes governors, she prevented her people from being conquered by Procer, she stopped The Diabolist from becoming the next Dread Empress, she's fought and defeated demons and devils, prevented Summer and Winter from conquering her people, she saved the drow from extermination, and she stepped forward to prevent Keter from wiping out Procer.

[Mith]

Spoiler

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I don't think that's where it is going. The Truce and Terms are going to win, too many people are invested now for them to fail. There is going to be a horrific civil war to keep them after they kill off the KotD, and Cat's Name is going to become an issue. She can't be Queen of the Named for the Truce to do what she wants, which is turn power over to institutions from super heroes. Eventually Cat has to leave for the T&T to actually do their job, but with how jealous Cat is of power how is she going to do that?

In other words, the Girl Who Climbs the Tower is a very apt song for Cat even if she is not in Praes. The T&T are about reducing the effect of cosmic conflicts on the common person, but so far she has:

1. Worked with the invaders of her home to fight off a Crusade and then watched them destroy the breadbasket of her rival.
2. Helped unleash the King of the Dead on all civilians on the continent.
3. Unsettled the Drow who are stronger than Named and promised them land.
4. Helped unleash several brutal civil wars across the continent.

She's 0/4 in making the common person's lives better, and 4/0 for concentrating power into her own hands. Her Name looks like it will help with the Latter, the question is if any of this helps the former.

Spoiler

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1. I fail to see what the better option was for her. Taking Praes out of the equation, Callow still would have fought Procer. Having Praes as an ally limited the fronts she needed to fight on.
She had no input in Black's implementation of Bonfire. You can say that she should have put effort into retieving him immediately, but could she have afforded to do that with everything else on her plate?

2. I feel that Keter to Everdark is really Cat's descent and start of her rise in the path of Traditional Evil in Calarnia, and where those goals lead. She was used as pressure on Malicia by the Dead king with regards to their treaty negotiation, but none of Cat's aid was deliberate aid to the current situation. While not a good action, and intent, I don't think that her actions ultimately change the current situation beyond the fact that Callow is less threatened than it could have otherwise been.

3. The drow were going to be driven to extinction by the Kingdom Under. Her attempt at enslaving the drow is a mark against her, and I would describe her current work as First Under Night as reparations for those actions from a certain point of view. I feel that the entire point of the story with the drow is that they may hold a belief system that is alien to our own based on how their society functions, but they are still a people and culture that should be treated as such. Look to the development of a new Secret mentioned in the first raid on the Hollow. I would honestly describe Cat's tenure as First Under Night as a mark in favour of trying to make the world a better place for the common people.

4. Not sure where "several" civil wars being unleashed by her actions. I count the two Liesse rebellions and that's about it. Everything else is really other actors as the primary cause.

Part of me does wonder if Cat dies at the end of the series because she has acknowledged may times in the last few books (see her last words to Good King Edward regarding how she must abdicate once she has fulfilled her role, and the reaffirmation of her promise to Vivienne after Arsenal. If we are saying that she ends up being the sole pillar holding up the value of the Accords, I could see her arranging a sacrifice that both removes her from the picture, and sets the groove in Creation to anchor the Accords.

I would argue that Cat's contribution to Callow is mostly in the form of removing the Praesi occupation in a fashion that allows for Vivienne to "actually better the people of Callow". Of course it's easier to do that in times of peace, but Cat doesn't expect to be remembered as anything more than a barely tolerated monster.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

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1. I fail to see what the better option was for her. Taking Praes out of the equation, Callow still would have fought Procer. Having Praes as an ally limited the fronts she needed to fight on.
She had no input in Black's implementation of Bonfire. You can say that she should have put effort into retieving him immediately, but could she have afforded to do that with everything else on her plate?

2. I feel that Keter to Everdark is really Cat's descent and start of her rise in the path of Traditional Evil in Calarnia, and where those goals lead. She was used as pressure on Malicia by the Dead king with regards to their treaty negotiation, but none of Cat's aid was deliberate aid to the current situation. While not a good action, and intent, I don't think that her actions ultimately change the current situation beyond the fact that Callow is less threatened than it could have otherwise been.

3. The drow were going to be driven to extinction by the Kingdom Under. Her attempt at enslaving the drow is a mark against her, and I would describe her current work as First Under Night as reparations for those actions from a certain point of view. I feel that the entire point of the story with the drow is that they may hold a belief system that is alien to our own based on how their society functions, but they are still a people and culture that should be treated as such. Look to the development of a new Secret mentioned in the first raid on the Hollow. I would honestly describe Cat's tenure as First Under Night as a mark in favour of trying to make the world a better place for the common people.

4. Not sure where "several" civil wars being unleashed by her actions. I count the two Liesse rebellions and that's about it. Everything else is really other actors as the primary cause.

Part of me does wonder if Cat dies at the end of the series because she has acknowledged may times in the last few books (see her last words to Good King Edward regarding how she must abdicate once she has fulfilled her role, and the reaffirmation of her promise to Vivienne after Arsenal. If we are saying that she ends up being the sole pillar holding up the value of the Accords, I could see her arranging a sacrifice that both removes her from the picture, and sets the groove in Creation to anchor the Accords.

I would argue that Cat's contribution to Callow is mostly in the form of removing the Praesi occupation in a fashion that allows for Vivienne to "actually better the people of Callow". Of course it's easier to do that in times of peace, but Cat doesn't expect to be remembered as anything more than a barely tolerated monster.

Spoiler: Counterpoint

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1. Fair, though it's not like she really could have stopped that except by allowing Callow to be subjected by Procer
2. On the contrary, it has been made clear that the Dead King would've been unleashed no matter what. While she would've unleashed him in a more restrained fashion, he ended up being unleashed entirely by Malicia with no input from Cat at all.
3. She saved the common drow from being exterminated en mass by the Dwarves and has helped establish a culture for the drow that isn't just rampant murder and backstabbing.
4. Which civil wars? Praes? She was involved in that sure, but Praes is a sack full of intelligent wet tigers at the best of times. Procer? She's actively working to stop a civil war from happening. The Dominion? Is stable. The Free Cities? She did basically nothing to cause that. She didn't do anything to prevent it to be fair, but she didn't cause it either. I guess that leaves Callow itself, which happened before the Truce and Terms were even a thought in her head. Back than she thought Named ruling were perfectly fine.

As for actually making the common folk's lives better, she's squashed the corruption of the Praes governors, she prevented her people from being conquered by Procer, she stopped The Diabolist from becoming the next Dread Empress, she's fought and defeated demons and devils, prevented Summer and Winter from conquering her people, she saved the drow from extermination, and she stepped forward to prevent Keter from wiping out Procer.

Apologies, I haven't reread this in a while and it might be getting hazy in my head. I concede a lot of your points, I did a few point by point rebuttals but its a wall of text for what amounts to nitpicking.

[druid91]

Honestly, I never really got the whole enslaving the Drow issue.

She went in, found out that the Drow follow whoever is strongest, and went about proving herself the strongest so they would follow her. That's not really slavery.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, I never really got the whole enslaving the Drow issue.

She went in, found out that the Drow follow whoever is strongest, and went about proving herself the strongest so they would follow her. That's not really slavery.

The slavery part was making them take oaths that they had to follow.

[Tvtyrant]

Honestly, I never really got the whole enslaving the Drow issue.

She went in, found out that the Drow follow whoever is strongest, and went about proving herself the strongest so they would follow her. That's not really slavery.

She spiked the Night with Winter so it would kill people who betrayed her, and auctioned off Night so whoever was indentured longest would get the most.

As an aside I'm reasonably certain the whole thing is based on the Zerg arc in SCII with Kerrigan on Zerus.

[Mith]

Apologies, I haven't reread this in a while and it might be getting hazy in my head. I concede a lot of your points, I did a few point by point rebuttals but its a wall of text for what amounts to nitpicking.

Sorry if it felt like a pile on. Part of the reason I like story discussion is that they often point out things that I missed in text that does change interpretation. Since your read was different than what my understanding was, it was more of a "were are we getting the different reading from?" than any critical challenge. My apologies if it came across as hostile in any way.

On the subject of Cat and the drow, if you argue that she did unto them what they do to each other, and they have chained themselves and each other to the sacrificial alter, than she came in as a slaver and "liberator". There are always reasonable justifications, so to speak, but they are always only justifications.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There are always reasonable justifications

"Justifications only matter to the Just", I hear.

GW

[Tvtyrant]

Sorry if it felt like a pile on. Part of the reason I like story discussion is that they often point out things that I missed in text that does change interpretation. Since your read was different than what my understanding was, it was more of a "were are we getting the different reading from?" than any critical challenge. My apologies if it came across as hostile in any way.

On the subject of Cat and the drow, if you argue that she did unto them what they do to each other, and they have chained themselves and each other to the sacrificial alter, than she came in as a slaver and "liberator". There are always reasonable justifications, so to speak, but they are always only justifications.

No no, I didn't feel like there was hostility there. I reconsidered some of my positions in light of the arguments and decided I was mostly wrong. The real hazy part is from Cat's going to the KotD, an arc where I almost abandoned the story and I barely remember what happened because I simultaneously read all the Wildbow stories there. I'm sure my dislike of the arc between the end of Summer and the loss of Winter taints my feelings about what Cat was doing there.

[druid91]

She spiked the Night with Winter so it would kill people who betrayed her, and auctioned off Night so whoever was indentured longest would get the most.

As an aside I'm reasonably certain the whole thing is based on the Zerg arc in SCII with Kerrigan on Zerus.

Well yes. She gave these people power and included a fail safe to prevent them from engaging in needless cruelty or trying to backstab her.

Again, that was an entirely voluntary process that they chose to undergo.

The slavery part was making them take oaths that they had to follow.

Is that really slavery though? They only had to take oaths to get night in the auction. Night isn't a necessity. It's not a serve me or die situation.

It's a 'I have power that you want. You can have it on certain conditions.'

[Tvtyrant]

Well yes. She gave these people power and included a fail safe to prevent them from engaging in needless cruelty or trying to backstab her.

Again, that was an entirely voluntary process that they chose to undergo.



Is that really slavery though? They only had to take oaths to get night in the auction. Night isn't a necessity. It's not a serve me or die situation.

It's a 'I have power that you want. You can have it on certain conditions.'

She didn't tell them she had spiked Night with Winter to kill them, and chronic backstabbing was an assumed part of their culture.

And Night is not only the only thing keeping you from being killed in the Underdark, but is the entire point of their culture. It would be like if you went into a place with staving people run by a famine God and offered them food laced with explosive nanites. Just because the place already sucked doesn't make someone not a monster for participating and manipulating it.

[Mith]

No no, I didn't feel like there was hostility there. I reconsidered some of my positions in light of the arguments and decided I was mostly wrong. The real hazy part is from Cat's going to the KotD, an arc where I almost abandoned the story and I barely remember what happened because I simultaneously read all the Wildbow stories there. I'm sure my dislike of the arc between the end of Summer and the loss of Winter taints my feelings about what Cat was doing there.

Good to hear! When it was two posts reiterating the same point, I was reconsidering my own response.

With regards to the KotD and Everdark arc, my perspective on it is that I like the premise of the arc, but it would need to be refined to make a publishable book.

When you think about the fact that Cat is seen as a potential Triumphant from the other side (see her at Battle of the Camps where they point out that while her and the Woe were driven off by Saint and Pilgrim, she still achieved all her objectives. Having her take the path of attempting to ally with Keter, followed by a full descent into a Black Queen enslaving a population to die is her experiencing first hand the full extent of traditional Evil. She wasn't Named, but titled Fae have been shown to have similar bindings to the Pattern of Creation. I would say that this descent and rise from darkness was the only way for Cat to temper her own principals to the climax that is Princes Graveyard, and her declaration that "we can do better than this".

Before that, she was reacting and really focused on breaking the board, but not really focused on building a better system in it's place. She needed to see that flaw in an undeniable way that outweighed the reactionary stress of trying to balance everything she had on her plate.

I agree that the arc as written isn't that great. But I do think that the threads woven through it is required for the story.

Then again, I love the drow and the Sisters.

[Forum Explorer]

"Justifications only matter to the Just", I hear.

GW

When the leaders of the most powerful nation bordering yours like to consider themselves just, you better have some good justifications for your actions.

Well yes. She gave these people power and included a fail safe to prevent them from engaging in needless cruelty or trying to backstab her.

Again, that was an entirely voluntary process that they chose to undergo.



Is that really slavery though? They only had to take oaths to get night in the auction. Night isn't a necessity. It's not a serve me or die situation.

It's a 'I have power that you want. You can have it on certain conditions.'

Without Night, a drow isn't even considered a person. So culturally Night is a necessity, one that they would do anything to obtain.

And Night is not only the only thing keeping you from being killed in the Underdark, but is the entire point of their culture. It would be like if you went into a place with staving people run by a famine God and offered them food laced with explosive nanites. Just because the place already sucked doesn't make someone not a monster for participating and manipulating it.

Also that. I do think the Drow arc was Cat at her most monsterous. Interestingly, it's also where she really leaned into her alienation of being a Fae Queen. She was throwing her power around, making and binding oaths, had no one to advise her, and none of the restrictions she placed on herself applied. So I feel like that was how Fae Cat really was without the story of Callow and being it's protector binding her.

Or maybe she was just insanely frustrated with reality. Keter was about to invade, conflict with Praes seemed inevitable, Black was off being weird, no one would negotiate with her, and these drow were so murderously treacherous to basically require either divine intervention or full on mind control to prevent their entire species from going extinct. I can definitely see myself going '**** it! I'm taking control by force because you all suck, and my options are apparently do nothing and let Keter eat the world, or become a monster who enslaved an entire species.'

[Rydiro]

Without Night, a drow isn't even considered a person. So culturally Night is a necessity, one that they would do anything to obtain.'

And yet most drow did just fine without it. Remember, the society was pyramid-shaped. Most drow didn't have night.
So you could argue night to be the equivalent to a secure, well-paying job.
Those come with contracts irl too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And yet most drow did just fine without it. Remember, the society was pyramid-shaped. Most drow didn't have night.
So you could argue night to be the equivalent to a secure, well-paying job.
Those come with contracts irl too.

Contracts can be broken unilaterally. Those oaths couldn't be abandoned by the drow. The key point here is not "they become more powerful" it is "once signed up, they couldn't unsign, and magic ensured that if they strayed, they'd die". Thus, slavery.

Honestly, not sure why there is so much push against this. Cat is evil. We not only know this, it's in the title. She's a very pleasant evil, one who doesn't commit evil actions just because they can, but they're still going to do what needs to be done, and morality will only be involved so long as it doesn't get in the way. That's kinda the whole premise.

Grey Wolf

[Rydiro]

Contracts can be broken unilaterally. Those oaths couldn't be abandoned by the drow. The key point here is not "they become more powerful" it is "once signed up, they couldn't unsign, and magic ensured that if they strayed, they'd die". Thus, slavery.

Thats neither how contracts work nor slavery.
If you break a (lawful) contract the police force will come and force you or put you in prison.
Slavery means that you are owned by someone absolutely. Giving a wiiling oath to serve in a feudal system for a limited time is completely different. You basically argue that all nobility in history were slaves.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thats neither how contracts work nor slavery.
If you break a (lawful) contract the police force will come and force you or put you in prison.

A contract involving a hidden clause to kill you if you step out of line is not a "(lawful)" contract. There is also no way to break Cat's "contract".

Slavery means that you are owned by someone absolutely.

Nope. There is many, many different types of slavery, they are not all "you are owned by someone absolutely".

Giving a wiiling oath to serve in a feudal system for a limited time is completely different. You basically argue that all nobility in history were slaves.

"a wiiling oath to serve in a feudal system for a limited time" might be different, but is also not what Cat was doing.

Also, you may be surprised to learn, it seems, that yes, most serfs where in essence slaves. They had no freedom of movement, no legal protections from their lord, and no right to bodily autonomy. Their "contract" was inherited, and thus they were tied to their lord by promises made by their ancestors, in perpetuity, with no way to break said contract. They were, legally, a part of the land, and as such the lords where able to sell humans by simply selling the land the serf lived on.

Grey Wolf

[Rydiro]

A contract involving a hidden clause to kill you if you step out of line is not a "(lawful)" contract. There is also no way to break Cat's "contract".


Nope. There is many, many different types of slavery, they are not all "you are owned by someone absolutely".


"a wiiling oath to serve in a feudal system for a limited time" might be different, but is also not what Cat was doing.

Also, you may be surprised to learn, it seems, that yes, most serfs where in essence slaves. They had no freedom of movement, no legal protections from their lord, and no right to bodily autonomy. Their "contract" was inherited, and thus they were tied to their lord by promises made by their ancestors, in perpetuity, with no way to break said contract. They were, legally, a part of the land, and as such the lords where able to sell humans by simply selling the land the serf lived on.

Grey Wolf

Somehow you seem to believe that contracts are meant to be broken. Thats not how contracts work.

You do have a point that feudal systems werent exactly free and that there were many slavery-like aspects to them, especially serfdom.
The drow who make the oaths do get power and titles though. They basically get out of poverty and gain influence. So the comparrison to serfdom is lacking. They are more akin to knights and small lords.

[The Glyphstone]

If the drow society embraced backstabbing, why isn't Cat building booby traps into her gifts an example of superior treachery?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Somehow you seem to believe that contracts are meant to be broken. Thats not how contracts work.

No, I seem to believe a contract can only valid if there is a way for either party to break it. A "contract" in perpetuity to an immortal entity without a way to break it, or buy it out or some other exit clause it not a contract, it is a form of slavery.

The drow who make the oaths do get power and titles though. They basically get out of poverty and gain influence. So the comparrison to serfdom is lacking. They are more akin to knights and small lords.

No, they are like far more like serfs: I'll let you work this piece of land/use this Night power in exchange for you to obey me in all things, loose your freedom, and die if you step out of line forever, with no take backs and no chance to leave this contract except through violent revolution"... except Cat thought ahead and also added "and if you do try to revolt, it'll kill you".

GW

[druid91]

No, I seem to believe a contract can only valid if there is a way for either party to break it. A "contract" in perpetuity to an immortal entity without a way to break it, or buy it out or some other exit clause it not a contract, it is a form of slavery.


No, they are like far more like serfs: I'll let you work this piece of land/use this Night power in exchange for you to obey me in all things, loose your freedom, and die if you step out of line forever, with no take backs and no chance to leave this contract except through violent revolution"... except Cat thought ahead and also added "and if you do try to revolt, it'll kill you".

GW

Except it wasn't in perpetuity. It was for set terms of service, and again, you're ignoring that the whole thing was entirely voluntary. Keep in mind that one of the rules that Cat enforced with the 'disobey and the winter in your veins will kill you.' was that non-mighty were not to be killed or harmed on a whim. You no longer needed Night to be safe under her rule. So besides wanting to be strong, or sheer cultural inertia, there was no reason to take the deal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except it wasn't in perpetuity. It was for set terms of service,

From what I recall, it was for Cat's life. She was immortal. The contract is therefore in perpetuity.

and again, you're ignoring that the whole thing was entirely voluntary.

I'm ignoring it because it is utterly irrelevant to the matter of whether it is akin to slavery. Throughout history, people have had the "freedom" to sell themselves into slavery. It didn't stop it from being slavery just because it was the last free act of the slave.

Keep in mind that one of the rules that Cat enforced with the 'disobey and the winter in your veins will kill you.' was that non-mighty were not to be killed or harmed on a whim. You no longer needed Night to be safe under her rule. So besides wanting to be strong, or sheer cultural inertia, there was no reason to take the deal.

Again: irrelevant to the question of whether "the deal" is or is not a form of slavery.

GW

[Rydiro]

From what I recall, it was for Cat's life. She was immortal. The contract is therefore in perpetuity.

Nope, that's what the bidding was for. They bid with length of service. IIRC most went with 5 to 10 years, a small time if the prize is agelessness. Now I see why you thought it to be slavery.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nope, that's what the bidding was for. They bid with length of service. IIRC most went with 5 to 10 years, a small time if the prize is agelessness. Now I see why you thought it to be slavery.

Well, that's egg in my face, yes. What was supposed to happen after those 5 years? Anyone have a link so I can read up on it?

GW

[tyckspoon]

Well, that's egg in my face, yes. What was supposed to happen after those 5 years? Anyone have a link so I can read up on it?

GW

I suspect Catherine just figured she'd burn that bridge when she got to it.. I don't recall any specific mention of what her post-war-against-Keter plans were at that point, but she probably figured the majority of her sworn Drow would either be dead or have proven to be loyal subordinates by then.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suspect Catherine just figured she'd burn that bridge when she got to it.. I don't recall any specific mention of what her post-war-against-Keter plans were at that point, but she probably figured the majority of her sworn Drow would either be dead or have proven to be loyal subordinates by then.

No, I don't mean how Cat intended to deal with it, I meant what where the terms the drows where agreeing to. That after 5/10 years, they were released from their vows, and were free to walk away with the Night given to them? Or did they just go back to the pool of powerless drow in Cat's "tribe" or whatever the term was?

Grey Wolf

[Rydiro]

No, I don't mean how Cat intended to deal with it, I meant what where the terms the drows where agreeing to. That after 5/10 years, they were released from their vows, and were free to walk away with the Night given to them? Or did they just go back to the pool of powerless drow in Cat's "tribe" or whatever the term was?

Grey Wolf

Cats gamble was that by then her wars would be over, the drow back in some sort of civilized society. I think she wanted to let them go with night&title (she had no means to revoke either back then).
So yes they would have kept the prize they sworn to work for. Thus achieving power and agelessness in exchange for their years.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Cats gamble was that by then her wars would be over, the drow back in some sort of civilized society. I think she wanted to let them go with night&title (she had no means to revoke either back then).
So yes they would have kept the prize they sworn to work for. Thus achieving power and agelessness in exchange for their years.

Well, that does change everything. If it was just for a few years, it is the equivalent of signing to the army (heck, the roman term of service was 20 years, never mind 10), and as a retirement bonus, you get to keep the weapon. Which in some cases is the equivalent of serving 10 years as a nuclear sub captain, and then getting to keep the sub.

GW

[Mith]

The perspective I take with Cat's adventures in the Everdark (I keep wanting to call it the Underdark), is that it is still indentured servitude, especially considering that the oaths were bound to her title of Soverign of Moonless Nights. She walked into the Underdark with the expectation of binding the people to her purpose so that they could die in her wars. She gave no thought to who they were as a culture or people, and didn't care.

Slavery is all about breaking the bonds of community of an enslaved person so that they can fit what you want them to do. Cat's options to the drow were for them to join her or die (either by her hand or by the oncoming Dwarves). There is no good way to spin this plan as something better. The drow were bodies for her war machine and that's it. The dream talk with Archer (actually Sve Noc) where she discusses having the Drow settle Ketaran land? That is done after she has been stripped of the Fae title and had a forced reckoning with her past actions.

Compare her perspective of the Drow then to how she views the same people as First Under Night. People feel like Cat is being influenced by the Sisters to think more favourably about the drow, but I think it's just that she views them as an actual people now, rather than a pile of bodies.