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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Creating steel making furnaces is very much not negligible. Technology to make good steel/appropriate furnaces has been found and then lost at least three times throughout history that I know of. Working furnaces to get accurate smelting is hard. Hell a good section of the world never invented it until outside forces brought it, often through violence.

    The fact that it's easy for outsiders to then work the technology would be why once the war ends and people start actually working together we see a general dispersal of such technology throughout the world in Korra. But that doesn't really matter to the circumstances to create the technology in the first place.

    There is of course also the circumstances of necessity to create. Why would steel be a big development in the Water Tribes when they live in igloos? If people can build castle walls and irrigation ditches with a bunch of punches and stomps the need for the metal tools to develop steel plows?

    This is not at all to say you can't create an alternative world history where this tech did originate among the other kingdoms first. But there is nothing wrong with it developing first among the Fire Nation, it makes pretty decent sense that it would.
    The Earth Kingdom uses steel in their prisons, and have steel devices used to capture of their earth benders. Given that the Fire Nation is decidedly unfriendly towards them, it is safe to say they can make steel independently, regardless of whoever came up with it. And, again, they are in a much better position to obtain and process the required materials quickly and efficiently.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Yeah but here is the problem with Earth: philosophically, its slow to change. and when it does change its often violent, like an avalanche, eruption, earthquake, a cave in...things like before it settles. so it wouldn't be as good of a fit as fire for industrializing first, because looking at it from the Fire nation perspective: they are the flame of innovation and progress, because change isn't achieved by being patient or steady, but by forging ahead, taking risks and being passionate about what you can do to change things for the better, no matter how much you get burned along the way. its just that those flames can also make you zealously believe your the greatest in your superiority and burn anyone who gets in your way.

    Earth on the other hand....
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    Earth has been consistently portrayed as the least open to innovation or change. Ba-Sing-Se when we first find it is under so much denial its busy trying to lie to itself that there is no war, a village trying to judge Aang for the actions of Avatar Kyoshi before that was clearly holding onto a grudge for a quite a long time, as Avatars can live longer than most people, like 200 years or so, and Kyoshi is like, the avatar before Roku, this is somewhere about five hundred years before the events of the series, thats a ridiculously long time for a village to hold a grudge.

    oh and the Great Divide, that nonsense where two tribes had a feud for like a hundred years over something we don't even know? yeah that happened, no matter how much we want to skip over it.

    oh and that other earth village that listens to the fortune teller for like everything that ticked off Sokka something fierce.

    or the captured Earthbenders who just all accepted their fate instead of doing something about it and needed a kick in the pants to get going.

    and of course in Korra, the Earth Kingdom is socio-economically behind everyone, being filled with slums, ruled by a cruel despot, and when they do change its a violent sudden change that....leads to another cruel dictator whose entire goal is nothing but reclaiming what the Earth Kingdom lost and making it great again while ignoring important spiritual matter with their siphoning of spirit energy. Wah-Wah.

    (which reflects a different part of Earth everyone forgets: its the most materialistic of the elements and thus also greedy, concerned with base pleasures, and whats in front of them rather than higher thoughts, so it perfectly in character for Earth to ignore more spiritual or mental matters since their primary concern are worldly ones, while Fire is a light so it can see further and dream of a better different tomorrow in its passion, even as it leads them down dark paths)

    of course, Air and Water have their own reasons why they might not industrialize first:
    Air and its monks have the opposite problem of Earth's problems: they may be open-minded, but are so pre-occupied with the theoretical, the philosophical and the abstract that and they don't really get anything practical done. they may have the greatest wisdom of the nations because of their way of life, but they are so caught up in their ivory tower musings that they simply don't touch the Earth as it were to get their hands dirty. they simply didn't have the work ethic to actually do the things that Fire did.

    Water on the other hand is also open to change in that it can take many states, be adaptable and fill many containers....but the problem with that is, is that its not changing the world, its changing YOURSELF and how you live in it. water is to some extent, reactive in its change. after all, the tides only go in and out because of the moon, and water is only at its temperatures to be like this because fire warms the earth. its easier to change yourself to live in your circumstances, when industrialization is all about changing the circumstances around you. thus why Water was able to industrialize and adapt to Fire's tech faster but didn't come up with any of it themselves- the philosophy of Water quite simply is one that requires someone else to make the first push so they can roll with it.

    so Fire got the industrialization first, because its the exact combination of "change other things" and balance of "practical hard work" and "ideas".
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Earth comes remarkably close, if not equivalent/overpassing them, since their powers would make mining/refining significantly easier, which affects both fuel and materials. Creating fire is almost negligible, and the machines don't really need control, since
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    the Water Tribespeople can work a Fire Nation ship well enough to fool other Fire Nation ships.
    There's a few other things to consider

    The Earth Kingdom is more less densely populated than the Fire Nation due to its size and has to spread it's resources out, while the Fire Nation could have concentrated on its Islands.

    Also not everyone is a bender. And Firebenders using their bender to fuel their vehicles is more efficient than Earthbenders digging up coal to do the same, or spending kinetic energy pushing machines. (Also we don't know what the bender-to-nonbender ration is in each nation)

    Also the Earthbenders relying on their bending might have handicapped them in the long term. Since they can use bending to move stuff the densely populated cities like Ba Sing Se and Omashu would have less of a reason to industrialize, while the Fire nation needed machines to do similar things.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Earth Kingdom uses steel in their prisons, and have steel devices used to capture of their earth benders. Given that the Fire Nation is decidedly unfriendly towards them, it is safe to say they can make steel independently, regardless of whoever came up with it. And, again, they are in a much better position to obtain and process the required materials quickly and efficiently.
    After 100 years of war, with them directly interacting with the enemy technology. And the Fire Nation still clearly has a more advanced military application of steel tech.

    And are they in a better position to process steel? Because that's a process of binding oxygen to iron ore is a heat based process requiring some sort of advanced furnace. Now getting iron ore? Sure. I can see that being pretty easily an Earth Kingdom skill. Of course I don't know what they're going to be doing with it, much. They don't need steel for agriculture, building, or war really. And that need is usually one of the factors for the development of technology.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yeah but here is the problem with Earth: philosophically, its slow to change. and when it does change its often violent, like an avalanche, eruption, earthquake, a cave in...things like before it settles. so it wouldn't be as good of a fit as fire for industrializing first, because looking at it from the Fire nation perspective: they are the flame of innovation and progress, because change isn't achieved by being patient or steady, but by forging ahead, taking risks and being passionate about what you can do to change things for the better, no matter how much you get burned along the way. its just that those flames can also make you zealously believe your the greatest in your superiority and burn anyone who gets in your way.
    Please ignore the parts I write below that do not apply to you; it's easier to just lump everything into a single argument here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmeoaice View Post
    There's a few other things to consider

    The Earth Kingdom is more less densely populated than the Fire Nation due to its size and has to spread it's resources out, while the Fire Nation could have concentrated on its Islands.

    Also not everyone is a bender. And Firebenders using their bender to fuel their vehicles is more efficient than Earthbenders digging up coal to do the same, or spending kinetic energy pushing machines. (Also we don't know what the bender-to-nonbender ration is in each nation)

    Also the Earthbenders relying on their bending might have handicapped them in the long term. Since they can use bending to move stuff the densely populated cities like Ba Sing Se and Omashu would have less of a reason to industrialize, while the Fire nation needed machines to do similar things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    After 100 years of war, with them directly interacting with the enemy technology. And the Fire Nation still clearly has a more advanced military application of steel tech.

    And are they in a better position to process steel? Because that's a process of binding oxygen to iron ore is a heat based process requiring some sort of advanced furnace. Now getting iron ore? Sure. I can see that being pretty easily an Earth Kingdom skill. Of course I don't know what they're going to be doing with it, much. They don't need steel for agriculture, building, or war really. And that need is usually one of the factors for the development of technology.
    OK, y'all seem to be under the impression that I am arguing that, as currently written, earth could have been the aggressor. I am not. I am saying that it could have been written differently to start with, with Earth as the aggressor nation. A sudden militaristic attack after ages upon ages of peace? That sounds like "slow to change, and when it does, it dies so violently" to me. A hundred year war, unrelenting as gains the others, strong, steadfast, resolute, and unyielding? Earth fits fine there.

    I am not saying that Earth (or any other element) could be the aggressor nation with the exact same scripts and the names swapped. I am saying that Earth (or any other element) could have been the aggressor nation while still keeping the same basic storyline of "avatar, last of X group of people, must master the other elements and free the world from the oppression and war wrought by the Y Nation", and keeping the same themes that the show as written explored, while having fairly significant changes to the actual details of the world.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-19 at 07:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    OK, y'all seem to be under the impression that I am arguing that, as currently written, earth could have been the aggressor. I am not. I am saying that it could have been written differently to start with, with Earth as the aggressor nation. A sudden militaristic attack after ages upon ages of peace? That sounds like "slow to change, and when it does, it dies so violently" to me. A hundred year war, unrelenting as gains the others, strong, steadfast, resolute, and unyielding? Earth fits fine there.

    I am not saying that Earth (or any other element) could be the aggressor nation with the exact same scripts and the names swapped. I am saying that Earth (or any other element) could have been the aggressor nation while still keeping the same basic storyline of "avatar, last of X group of people, must master the other elements and free the world from the oppression and war wrought by the Y Nation", and keeping the same themes that the show as written explored, while having fairly significant changes to the actual details of the world.
    Also if I were to put more in spoiler,
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    Earth Kingdom also suffer from civil war and political division, even the "Kingdom" was formed after Ba Sing Se hegemonized nearby states and control is loose instead (like Omashu having their own king and villages having different laws).
    I mean even in more peaceful times, most of the conflicts occur in the Earth Kingdom either in feudal struggles or warlord rebellion (Chin the Conqueror being a major example).
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Welp, found Legend of Korra on Amazon.

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    One episode in, and I both like and dislike it. I pretty much like the direction they're taking it in (big city founded for all the different people to live in together, class warfare brewing among the non-benders being taken advantage of by benders, solid basis for the non-benders complaints as organized crime seems to be comprised of benders, etc.), but I really don't like the technology they've brought in - cars, radios, movies... I really liked in TLA how each culture used their unique abilities to replicate aspects of modern life without resorting to technology, and felt that added a whole lot to the worldbuilding in making a unique and interesting world. Even the tanks I wasn't a big fan of, despite them being little more than armored shells to protect the firebenders acting as artillery, but they were still unique and interesting. The further technological revolution in Korra seems to lose that uniqueness. That's my only complaint so far, but it's a biggie.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    The main issue with Korra is that it leans heavily into protagonist centered morality. But overall, season 1 is quite good. Season 2 is, for the most part, hot garbage, and the first quarter of season 3 made me drop the show. I hear by endgame, season 3 and all of season 4 are good though.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The main issue with Korra is that it leans heavily into protagonist centered morality. But overall, season 1 is quite good. Season 2 is, for the most part, hot garbage, and the first quarter of season 3 made me drop the show. I hear by endgame, season 3 and all of season 4 are good though.
    That part surprises me. I've heard of people dropping after season 2, but not season 3.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Season 3 ends pretty nicely, and season 4 is fine. You'll find few that prefer LoK over ATLA, but I think as a sequel series it holds quite well on its own (and is better than many other cartoon shows).

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    I'll be the brave person here and say I actually liked all four Korra seasons and think the show doesn't deserve nearly as much hate as it gets.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2020-06-22 at 10:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I'll be the brave person here and say I actually liked all four Korra seasons and think the show doesn't deserve nearly as much as hate as it gets.
    Seconded *high five*.

    I acknowledge its problems, but feel on the whole it is excellent as a continuation could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I'll be the brave person here and say I actually liked all four Korra seasons and think the show doesn't deserve nearly as much as hate as it gets.
    Personally, I dropped it mid season 2.

    Which isn't to say I think it was bad really. I admit how they handled the villain in S1 did put a bad taste in my mouth for spoilery reasons. But my ultimate view was just: it's fine. It's not great. It's not a horrible stain on ATLA's good name. It's just, you know, fine.

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    I didn't much like season 2, but the rest of it was great, and the ending of season 4 was perfect.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    I have serious problems with the clearly compressed nature of Season 1 (the Pro Bending plot was clearly meant to have a few additional episodes of setup and character development), season 2 is a mess but Beginnings is arguably worth it for to a during and more interesting plot, season 3 begins weak and ends strongly, and season 4 is mostly solid but rarely great. It's not a bad show, but it has more problems than Legend of Aang did.

    On that note, *snicker*, bender.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2020-06-23 at 05:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Korra's still better than average at least for the most part...but it's being compared to, y'know, Avatar! I think that's why it gets so much flack.

    Oddly enough, though, the ending makes it more culturally relevant, if only because...

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    Confirming Korra and Asami's relationship was basically the first step in LGBTQ+ folk being openly portrayed in childrens' media.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Personally, I dropped it mid season 2.

    Which isn't to say I think it was bad really. I admit how they handled the villain in S1 did put a bad taste in my mouth for spoilery reasons. But my ultimate view was just: it's fine. It's not great. It's not a horrible stain on ATLA's good name. It's just, you know, fine.
    Season 2 is the weakest. Season 3 is the strongest.

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    I agree that season 1 kind of fell apart at the end, because Amon is basically right, but the series doesn't do enough work to address the fact that he's right and uses the fact that he's a hypocrite to distract from it.

    That's why season 3 is the best, because Zaheer is similarly right in the things he's fighting for, but they cop out less with him at the end.


    Overall though Legend of Korra has a big structural problem that each season is a single serialised story with one antagonist, which means that the overall structure tends to be that the heroes lose for 10 episodes then suddenly win at the end. There's less of a sense of the characters undergoing personal growth to get to the point where they can win without seeing them overcome the minor obstacles on the path that the og gaang did because of the more episodic structure.

    The original series has some of the best pacing in TV because it has episodic stories, but all of them have something in that advances the season arc, and the season arcs combine to fulfil the overall story arc. Very few shows managed to be so consistent in delivering on all three narrative layers.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    I am in a peculiar situation because while I do think the first two seasons of LoK are really very bad, the other two are quite good and the level of hatred towards it is excessive. Then again, I'm generally perpetually fed up with the Internet rage machine these days. It's like people can't like something without having to tear down something related.

    I loved the first season as I watched it, then the finale quickly turned it into distaste. The second one was mostly a bit of a mess from start to finish, but with some high points too. Something the first two seasons share is a failure to engage with conflicts they set up. Though I do remember starting to watch the third season mostly out of morbid curiosity, then suddenly finding that it's actually good. The first episode's name, Breath of Fresh Air, is really apt.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    I'm not as sold on season 4, I think it's about as good as the good bits of season 1.

    (Another problem of the early seasons is that they focus too much on Mako and basically treat Bolin as a perpetual buttmonkey, a state he would only really recover from in season 3. I have furniture with more personality than Mako.)

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    Season Four isn't as good as Season Three, no. I would still rank it as higher than Season One overall, but "about as good as the good bits of season 1" might be an apt description. Season One has some legitimately strong moments, it's just that the main plots and character arcs fail to hold them together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's the thing, though; the other benders could also have developed machines based on their elements. Water could have hydraulics, Air could have had steam/pressure, and Earth... well, Earth is harder.

    ETA: Actually, Earth would similar to Fire, since the Fire Nation uses coal-fired engines, and Earth benders would be most suitable to easily and quickly mining and refining coal.
    I mean, the whole point of using combustion engines is to spin turbines to create motive force. I feel like it wouldn't be that hard to just make a 'wind mill' with rocks on the end instead of wind catching arms and get a pair of Earth benders to accelerate it to speeds providing the same function.

    After all we repeatedly see them launch boulders the size of houses miles into the sky, how hard could it be to spin a stick covered in rocks?
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    It's a common trope there has to be the one character who's the butt of the joke, the idiot jerk who's always wrong. That's Sokka. It's a kids show, so I try to let it go, but it gets real annoying real fast. I would have preferred a more competent character to show you don't need to be a Bender to be respected or be a hero in the show's universe. Finally, he gets his moment to shine at the North Air Bender temple by figuring out how to detect the gas leaks and fixing the Balloon. I'm expecting next episode he's back to being the idiot jerk, but here's to hoping he gets more moments to shine. Maybe he learns something about himself with the Water Benders and is more competent in Book 2.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's a common trope there has to be the one character who's the butt of the joke, the idiot jerk who's always wrong. That's Sokka. It's a kids show, so I try to let it go, but it gets real annoying real fast. I would have preferred a more competent character to show you don't need to be a Bender to be respected or be a hero in the show's universe. Finally, he gets his moment to shine at the North Air Bender temple by figuring out how to detect the gas leaks and fixing the Balloon. I'm expecting next episode he's back to being the idiot jerk, but here's to hoping he gets more moments to shine. Maybe he learns something about himself with the Water Benders and is more competent in Book 2.
    I suspect by the end of the show, you'll love Sokka. Everyone does (though I loved him by the point you're at already, since his character development was already well underway).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I suspect by the end of the show, you'll love Sokka. Everyone does (though I loved him by the point you're at already, since his character development was already well underway).
    Yeah, I wouldn't write him off. Aang tends to avoid his own problems for the sake of goofing off, and Katara tends to take up goodhearted causes that get her into trouble and thus both think with their hearts while Sokka is actually the most brainy and tactical of the group despite his humorous nature.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's a common trope there has to be the one character who's the butt of the joke, the idiot jerk who's always wrong. That's Sokka. It's a kids show, so I try to let it go, but it gets real annoying real fast. I would have preferred a more competent character to show you don't need to be a Bender to be respected or be a hero in the show's universe. Finally, he gets his moment to shine at the North Air Bender temple by figuring out how to detect the gas leaks and fixing the Balloon. I'm expecting next episode he's back to being the idiot jerk, but here's to hoping he gets more moments to shine. Maybe he learns something about himself with the Water Benders and is more competent in Book 2.
    You'll be happy to know he gets his development too. He is very much the non-Bender hero you're asking for it just takes a while.

    Bear in mind that Book 1 was when the profucers were testing the waters of the show. This is the same channel that had Spongebob and Fairly-Odd Parents. They were not sure yet how far off the beaten path the Nickolodeon executives would let them go.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I am in a peculiar situation because while I do think the first two seasons of LoK are really very bad, the other two are quite good and the level of hatred towards it is excessive. Then again, I'm generally perpetually fed up with the Internet rage machine these days. It's like people can't like something without having to tear down something related.

    I loved the first season as I watched it, then the finale quickly turned it into distaste. The second one was mostly a bit of a mess from start to finish, but with some high points too. Something the first two seasons share is a failure to engage with conflicts they set up. Though I do remember starting to watch the third season mostly out of morbid curiosity, then suddenly finding that it's actually good. The first episode's name, Breath of Fresh Air, is really apt.
    It doesn't help that the bad seasons come first, so the rage machine revved up and reached its conclusions early. I still haven't gotten around to watching seasons 3 and 4.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-06-23 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yeah, I wouldn't write him off. Aang tends to avoid his own problems for the sake of goofing off, and Katara tends to take up goodhearted causes that get her into trouble and thus both think with their hearts while Sokka is actually the most brainy and tactical of the group despite his humorous nature.
    Also, he's already undergone changes by this point; the Kyoshi Warriors help knock him out if his sexist views pretty quickly, and he takes to their training remarkably fast, going from being completely outclassed by Suki to being able to take her down, much to her own embarrassment, in less than a day.

    Spoiler: Season 3
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    Of course, she still completely outclasses him in pure martial ability, but it shows that he is remarkably capable, a fast learner and a quick thinker. Plus, even if there were alternate universes where he gets with Yue or Ty Lee, he would be dating/marrying up. I like that all the possible love interests were more capable than he was, despite him being incredibly competent to begin with. It's a refreshing change.
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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I am in a peculiar situation because while I do think the first two seasons of LoK are really very bad, the other two are quite good and the level of hatred towards it is excessive. Then again, I'm generally perpetually fed up with the Internet rage machine these days. It's like people can't like something without having to tear down something related.

    I loved the first season as I watched it, then the finale quickly turned it into distaste. The second one was mostly a bit of a mess from start to finish, but with some high points too. Something the first two seasons share is a failure to engage with conflicts they set up. Though I do remember starting to watch the third season mostly out of morbid curiosity, then suddenly finding that it's actually good. The first episode's name, Breath of Fresh Air, is really apt.
    Yup, same here. I found the conflicts they set up in season 1 and 2 interesting, but they didn't do a good job of resolving them in a way that was satisfying. I picked up season 3 and 4 after a gap of a few years (I think Nickelodeon had dropped it off TV and put it on streaming) and they were better.

    Netflix is reportedly going to do a live action version of Avatar, but I think Avatar doesn't need to be re-told at all; it's a great story that still holds up. I'd like to see what a great creator getting a second crack at Korra could do, because there's a lot there's a lot of great ideas but weren't well executed.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, he's already undergone changes by this point; the Kyoshi Warriors help knock him out if his sexist views pretty quickly, and he takes to their training remarkably fast, going from being completely outclassed by Suki to being able to take her down, much to her own embarrassment, in less than a day.

    Spoiler: Season 3
    Show
    Of course, she still completely outclasses him in pure martial ability, but it shows that he is remarkably capable, a fast learner and a quick thinker. Plus, even if there were alternate universes where he gets with Yue or Ty Lee, he would be dating/marrying up. I like that all the possible love interests were more capable than he was, despite him being incredibly competent to begin with. It's a refreshing change.
    I just want to also point out that in that episode something happens which does not usually happen in this sort of situation on TV (kids or otherwise).

    Sokka goes back and apologises without being told to. He isn't pushed into it by another character, he isn't shamed into it, he does it because he's capable of self-reflection and decides it for himself.

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    Default Re: Avatar The Last Air Bender

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I just want to also point out that in that episode something happens which does not usually happen in this sort of situation on TV (kids or otherwise).

    Sokka goes back and apologises without being told to. He isn't pushed into it by another character, he isn't shamed into it, he does it because he's capable of self-reflection and decides it for himself.
    Indeed. It's a pretty great episode all around.

    Also, the episode with Jet in Book 1 has Sokka acting with a lot of dignity and ethical justification, even while imprisoned.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-06-23 at 07:37 PM.
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