Avatar The Last Air Bender

[Ramza00]

Listening to the podcast Republic City Dispatches which is doing a 5 year retrospective since the show is on Netflix.

Listening specifically to the Book 3: Change episode...

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000491230024

And in sum Korra did a Star Wars Sequel Trilogy as it should have been, and did it so much better. Yes there are cameos of the older cast but do not overdo them as fan service (for overdoing it will always disappoint), and it is also simultaneously show they are good people but flawed and thus subvert their hero status some what.

[LibraryOgre]

You know, everyone who complains about the tech advancement in Korra: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man in ATLA season 3 has a cybernetic arm and leg. I mean, completely leaving aside the Northern Air temple, with dedicated inventors, and the war machines of the Fire Nation...

[Rynjin]

You know, everyone who complains about the tech advancement in Korra: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man in ATLA season 3 has a cybernetic arm and leg.

They weren't cybernetic though, just simple metal prostheses. That's real world medieval tech.

[Rater202]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I imagine that now that the Airbendrs have returned that in a decade or two someone inventor is gonna realize that they can support firebender generated power with wind turbines

[uncool]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I think that depends on which bits you choose to set your timeline by. I think I'd put the original series in about the mid-1800s in terms of Fire Nation technology - matching up with early ironclad warships, behind the apparently mass-manufacture tanks, and far ahead of the weaponry (namely, the complete lack of firearms) and armor (though that makes sense with the lack of firearms). Korra matches reasonably well to the 1910s-1920s, with the proliferation of cars (the Model T became popular in the 10s), biplanes, electrical grid, entertainment radio, propaganda movies, etc. That's not far from 70 years.

Of course, almost all of the tech by which I measure the Fire Nation is its military technology, while much of the importance of technology in the real-world industrial revolution was its commercial applications, and iirc the Fire Nation is significantly less advanced for those.

[Rater202]

The iron nation did have mass-produced tanks though.They just didn't have guns.

Automobiles are the logical first application of that technology following demilitarization. Honestly, they should have had cars for a few decades by now.

[Ibrinar]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I imagine that now that the Airbendrs have returned that in a decade or two someone inventor is gonna realize that they can support firebender generated power with wind turbines

I am in favor of rock powered energy, there is a lot of potential energy in giant boulders!

[uncool]

The iron nation did have mass-produced tanks though.They just didn't have guns.

Yes - that's what I meant by "behind". Mass-produced tanks started late in WWI - near where I'm putting Korra, in fact.

Automobiles are the logical first application of that technology following demilitarization. Honestly, they should have had cars for a few decades by now.

Perhaps - although it's not hard to imagine an explanation that the problem wasn't making cars, but rather making them for individuals - and making them work without needing a dedicated firebender.

[Rater202]

The Firenation was alredy using Coal Boilers. Firebending straight into the Boiler seemed to be a backup plan.

there was even that prison ship that was powered entirely by coal with, IIRC, no actual benders on it other than the Earth Bender prisoners from that one town.

(Though I imagine that bending power was more common when Steam Power was first being discovered and large scale boilers weren't viable yet.)

It's simply a matter of finding an efficient enough fuel and minuting the technology. Twenty to thirty years if people are actively working on improving the boiler tech.

[Ramza00]

Still, the Fire Nation was already at the industrial revolution by the time Aang was thawed. With peace restored and the four nations cooperating, especially in the melting pot of Republic City, that tech is going to proliferate and adapt as different forms of innovation and different ideas are spread.

Honestly, the unrealistic part is that in seventy years they've only gotten to the late industrial revolution.

I imagine that now that the Airbendrs have returned that in a decade or two someone inventor is gonna realize that they can support firebender generated power with wind turbines

With tech there is often bottlenecks to prevent future techs. Thus what is the bottleneck on our Earth may not be the same bottleneck on Avatar land.

For example the wheel was in use for hundreds of years prior to the wheel and axle. To get an axle, a second wheel inside a first wheel and to get it as an energy saver not loser you need metal tools to get the friction coefficient just right. Tight but not too tight. While a wheel like taking an existing round tree, removing the bark, removing any excess knobs and such is easier with more basic tools. Thus the wheel and axle was not possible without advanced enough metallurgy to make it. Thus in our archaeology prior to recorded history (though some civilizations had some writing at the time but no recording events for a written history record) the first civilizations Of the wheel and axle spread far and ride in a few hundred years. That said they were quickly copied once their carts were copied and their tools traded or stolen. Soon we get the wheel and axle that was spoked and chariots were born. (Etc, Etc, Etc with history.)

Likewise the 1800s and 1900s history were times bottlenecked by chemistry, machine tools caused by replaceable parts from an assembly line, and lastly fuel. Being able to firebend, earthbend, and waterbend would greatly advance all of those bottlenecks but also make new tech possible. For example many machine techs need a friction coefficient where it is extremely small like two pipes inside of another and only a millimeter of separation. That is now possible with metal bending.

Likewise glass bending can this occur by the simultaneous cooperative bending of fire (heat), earth (silica in sand), and water (to further shape and cool)?

—————

Tech would be very different in the avatar verse. Likewise jobs would be different and thus society would be different.

It is likely some form of official or unofficial caste system would develop with certain jobs benders could only do (and new jobs possible with teams of benders from multiple elements) while other jobs being performed by non benders like commerce, art, raising of children, teaching, and so on.

If it was not on Nickelodeon but written in a young adult dystopic kind of way ... Amon would be leading a revolution of non benders due to economics and how economics shape non economic spheres like politics, aristocracy, military, etc. All these jobs done by bender and non bender alike are needed for society to function but bending gives people power to shift who gets the rewards and control of society. Why are all the military generals likely to be benders? Why is the royal family of the fire nation composed of entirely benders? Why is republic city have a committee of the different nations and the representatives were chosen because they were benders? Why is bending is what organizes the 4 nations prior to the one hundred year war?

Bending is not essential if Amon can take it away, benders and non benders should be equal and with new tech they can be equal and Amon will take away the bending of anyone who oppresses others and does not use their bending in the services of the greater other, the unifying other of fraternal bonds.

(See there are dozens of ways one could have written Korea from the existing world building. The tech, metaphysics, and existing lore does not lead to a single one direction but instead Korra could have been dozens of different stories.)

[uncool]

So the problem I had with the technology in Korra wasn't the amount of development, but its direction.

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The technology generally felt like generic 1910s-1920s setting, as I described above. With the exclusion of Republic City's police equipment (namely, cables for metalbending) and the barely touched-on electrical grid, to my recollection we didn't see a single piece of semi-common engineering technology that was specifically based around bending. No, say, water-based timers (think hourglass, with water instead of sand, which starts when a waterbender stops holding the water up), no earth-based gear assemblies, no fire-based light projectors. Nearly every advance we did get essentially brought the setting to 1910s-1920s technology - radio, biplanes, early cars, and even that electrical grid. Those are some very quick examples, and I'm sure you guys could come up with some much better ones - especially by mixing benders.

This is actually two slightly different problems: the technology doesn't integrate the specific prequel world, and the technology is generic. The latter is a somewhat weaker complaint - Korra does have some unique technology (the "mini-mechas" from season 1, the spirit vines and huge mecha from season 4) - but I think they're connected. I suspect the writers wanted a "more modern" world and simply took from the real world, rather than trying to project forward.

One of the things I planned to do in my rewrite was to have better integration with bending - e.g. having the roads be made with at least waterbenders and earthbenders in mind, with cars being a distant third in the mind of city planners. This would play into the anti-bender sentiment, with nonbenders complaining that benders made it difficult to get anywhere by car, by leaving the roads a mess. I think it would also improve Korra's crimefighting scene at the start - she benefits from the preference for benders, tying her into the political fight directly.

[Ramza00]

So the problem I had with the technology in Korra wasn't the amount of development, but its direction.

Spoiler

Show

The technology generally felt like generic 1910s-1920s setting, as I described above. With the exclusion of Republic City's police equipment (namely, cables for metalbending) and the barely touched-on electrical grid, to my recollection we didn't see a single piece of semi-common engineering technology that was specifically based around bending. No, say, water-based timers (think hourglass, with water instead of sand, which starts when a waterbender stops holding the water up), no earth-based gear assemblies, no fire-based light projectors. Nearly every advance we did get essentially brought the setting to 1910s-1920s technology - radio, biplanes, early cars, and even that electrical grid. Those are some very quick examples, and I'm sure you guys could come up with some much better ones - especially by mixing benders.

This is actually two slightly different problems: the technology doesn't integrate the specific prequel world, and the technology is generic. The latter is a somewhat weaker complaint - Korra does have some unique technology (the "mini-mechas" from season 1, the spirit vines and huge mecha from season 4) - but I think they're connected. I suspect the writers wanted a "more modern" world and simply took from the real world, rather than trying to project forward.

One of the things I planned to do in my rewrite was to have better integration with bending - e.g. having the roads be made with at least waterbenders and earthbenders in mind, with cars being a distant third in the mind of city planners. This would play into the anti-bender sentiment, with nonbenders complaining that benders made it difficult to get anywhere by car, by leaving the roads a mess. I think it would also improve Korra's crimefighting scene at the start - she benefits from the preference for benders, tying her into the political fight directly.

I understand and I sympathize. It sounds like you wanted Nick to hire a crazy art director during the planning stages to brainstorm a little and create a more "gonzo" world with a more fantastic type of technology. Something like this (links to a video about a certain style of blockbuster.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgBfH4puWAU

[Peelee]

You know, everyone who complains about the tech advancement in Korra: Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man in ATLA season 3 has a cybernetic arm and leg. I mean, completely leaving aside the Northern Air temple, with dedicated inventors, and the war machines of the Fire Nation...

I don't remember if I've said it on here, but Sparky Sparky Boom Boom man was by far the weakest and worst part of ATLA. Also, there is a marked difference in dirigibles and automata. I'm generally not a fan of steampunk, especially when it involves a fluid mix of low technological advancement with exceedingly high technology (eg. no computers, but robots that can walk on two legs perfectly).

That all being said, I do applaud them for trying to go a different route and industrialize the world, even if I didn't like it as much. I loved ATLA's aspect of showing civilizations attempting to replicate industrialized mechanisms through bending, such as earthbender transportation. It was more unique and Avatar-universe-centric.

Also, I agree with uncool.

[uncool]

I understand and I sympathize. It sounds like you wanted Nick to hire a crazy art director during the planning stages to brainstorm a little and create a more "gonzo" world with a more fantastic type of technology. Something like this (links to a video about a certain style of blockbuster.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgBfH4puWAU

Having watched the first three minutes...that's not what I was looking for. I'm not looking for spectacle - I'm looking for coherence.

What I was looking for was more a sense that the world is coherent and lived-in, where technology matches the powers people have. The original did this, for example, with the canals and locks of the North Pole, the imposing walls of Omashu and Ba Sing Se, the firebender-powered hot air balloons. Those weren't spectacle (or at least, not just spectacle) - they were just part of how things worked, as a natural result of what people could do.

eta some more examples: the sandsailers, Aang's staff, the wall of fire in the throne room, the doors that required airbending and firebending (though the last 3 aren't common; commonness is more specific to the changes an industrial revolution does).

eta2: Having watched more of that video, the complaint he says "gonzo" films address somewhat sounds like my second complaint; however, I think I'd focus more on my first complaint - that it doesn't feel like a world that has benders. Not in that benders don't appear - obviously they do - but the world doesn't feel like benders took part in shaping it. The feeling I'm thinking of is much less "Oh wow, that looks cool" and much more "You know, that makes sense".

[Pex]

I don't remember if I've said it on here, but Sparky Sparky Boom Boom man was by far the weakest and worst part of ATLA. Also, there is a marked difference in dirigibles and automata. I'm generally not a fan of steampunk, especially when it involves a fluid mix of low technological advancement with exceedingly high technology (eg. no computers, but robots that can walk on two legs perfectly).

That all being said, I do applaud them for trying to go a different route and industrialize the world, even if I didn't like it as much. I loved ATLA's aspect of showing civilizations attempting to replicate industrialized mechanisms through bending, such as earthbender transportation. It was more unique and Avatar-universe-centric.

Also, I agree with uncool.

It was done before. It was called The Flintstones.

Anyway, a few more episodes in. (I don't binge watch.) Just finished The Aftermath. I'm enjoying the show. I still get it those who are turned off by the technology being upset the Bender Universe is ruined, but it's not affecting me. Is it too obvious who the bad guy is under the mask? I can still be surprised there will be a Snape/Quirell switcheroo, but I had my guess pegged the first time we see him in his alleged non-mask persona. He's so coy it screams he's the bad guy.

[Peelee]

It was done before. It was called The Flintstones.

Huh. I must have missed the episode where they explained how anthropomorphic dinosaurs as paper-thin placeholders for modern technology, along with actual modern technology with minimal window dressing, was the same as innate yet rudimentary control over the classical elements. Silly me.

[uncool]

It was done before. It was called The Flintstones.

At least when it comes to what I'm suggesting, there's a huge difference between how I think a serious sequel series should handle tech and how the Flintstones did.

The Flintstones blatantly and deliberately imitated modern technology with ridiculous details. The thought process was clearly "I want this technology; how can I shove it into this world?" Which, as a note, is perfectly fine for episodic comedy that's not really trying to build a coherent world. What I'm talking about is more along the lines of "This is a problem that people would face, just like they did in our world; how would people in this universe address it?" The example Peelee gave - the earthbender "train" system - is a natural answer to the question of how a city would address the need for mass short-distance transportation. Similarities to modern trains are largely because they solve similar problems.

[Pex]

Huh. I must have missed the episode where they explained how anthropomorphic dinosaurs as paper-thin placeholders for modern technology, along with actual modern technology with minimal window dressing, was the same as innate yet rudimentary control over the classical elements. Silly me.

You say that like The Flintstones is an insult. They're not The It Thing now, but they are iconic. The point is it's not unheard of to simulate modern technology using whatever non-technological system a given fiction uses. Therefore it's not unusual for the Bending Universe to have done the same thing even if someone doesn't like that it was done in Korra because they prefer the more tranquil setting of Avatar.

[Peelee]

You say that like The Flintstones is an insult. They're not The It Thing now, but they are iconic. The point is it's not unheard of to simulate modern technology using whatever non-technological system a given fiction uses. Therefore it's not unusual for the Bending Universe to have done the same thing even if someone doesn't like that it was done in Korra because they prefer the more tranquil setting of Avatar.

I'm not saying it like the Flintstones is an insult, I'm pointing out the vast chasm that is the difference between the two despite your attempt to equate them. The Flintstones had dinosaurs that existed solely to serve as stand-ins for modern technology, such as a shower or work whistle. The Flintstones had fully-functioning telephones with minimal differences that were purely aesthetic. ATLA worked within the confines of the setting to create their own unique civilizations, not necessarily replicate ours. The chute system of Omashu is a good example of ATLA use of elemental bending to create a system dissimilar to anything any other people in their world has, as it only works with earthbending. The Air Nomads had kites they could use to fly and glide through the air. The Fire Nation had steam engines. Each people had different ways to create a unique civilization by utilizing their unique powers. That is radically different from The Flintstones, which had drive-in theaters but with stone tires instead of rubber.

[Pex]

Tomato tomahto

[Peelee]

Tomato tomahto

More like tomato potato.

[JadedDM]

Is it too obvious who the bad guy is under the mask? I can still be surprised there will be a Snape/Quirell switcheroo, but I had my guess pegged the first time we see him in his alleged non-mask persona. He's so coy it screams he's the bad guy.

You're talking about Amon, right? Man, I remember all the off-the-wall and bizarre fan theories at the time about who he was behind the mask.

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Including Koh the Face Stealer and somehow--and don't ask me how this even works--Aang.

[Pex]

My bad guy is a bad guy but apparently not THE bad guy. For the first time the two of them were in the same scene together, as adversaries. It wasn't in a public area, so it couldn't be a decoy. There goes that theory. Maybe it was too obvious. That's a good thing. It shows the writers made an effort to produce quality within a children's show.

Nice to see the old gang grown up in the Vision, even if it was fan service.

. . .

Finished Book 1. Not that thrilled with the ending. Who Amon is feels forced. His identity was kept secret too long for the reveal. His true secret was fine to keep to the end, but who he is should have been revealed a few episodes earlier. If it's to be revealed so late it needed to be someone we knew and had time to get to know to have an impact. We know nothing about him until the end then it becomes "so what". As for Korra's recovery that was Deus Ex Machina. I'd have been fine if she was simply immune to Amon's power either because she was the Avatar or in fan service Aang was specifically given the power in his own Deus Ex Machina so the Avatar became immune there after.

Overall I did like the show as a whole and can accept the ending. Looking forward to Book 2.

. . .

A few episodes into Book 2 and I have the answer to my question in the original post. What would it be like if the villain was not Fire Nation. Now I get to see what troubles Water Nation can wrought, even if amongst themselves. This looks interesting.