New to AD&D 2e - fighter advice please!

[muprice59]

Good day to you all!

I recently got into AD&D with my neighbors and we've played several sessions, and I'm having a blast!

However - i feel like i am not using my character to his full potential and i was hoping you fine folks could help me out a bit!

My character - half Ogre pit fighter specialized in the bastard sword and fights in one weapon one shield fashion.

I have acquired chain mail, a magical buckle (decreases my AC by 1), a magic dwarven shield (decreases AC by 1 extra vs regular shield), and have a current AC of 1.

My bastard sword was melted by some form of an ooze monster and now I'm using a spear (of excellent manufacture my DM stated, but I'm not sure what that means).


Here's the catch - on player creation I got super lucky and rolled a 19 for strength so my to hit is +3 and my damage is +7 (+9 with specialization).

Should I be manufacturing a Cestus for each hand (I do have weaponsmithing) and putting a weapons proficiency point into punching to maximize my damage per round?

Even with AC1 it kinda feels like my DM hits me whenever needed to keep the group balanced (no DM would EVER do that, right? Just uber lucky rolling 19's and 20's all the time lol)....


What is this group's thoughts? With the Cesti (Sp?) my punching damage would be permanent and i'd do a minimum of 16 damage per round. At least until I get my hands on another bastard sword this feels like a pretty cool way to go...and I can keep dumping specialization points into punching (i have two available currently I could put on it).

Any help is appreciated!!

[LibraryOgre]

A lot depends on what rules you are using. Personally, I would not lean towards a cestus, save as a back-up weapon; if you have weapon-smithing, getting that Bastard Sword is going to be a big help... though, if your half-ogre is counted as Large, you might also think about a giant-sized two-handed sword... swinging 9 feet for steel is going to be a pretty nasty big of damage.

[opaopajr]

Half-Ogre you say? With 19 STR you say? And already an AC 1 that fits a half-ogre? Just have fun. The GM is quite generous for a new player and is enjoying you explore the world and system. What advice I could give you is old hat and would probably sour what seems to be already curdling on its own if those rather frequent monster 19s & 20s coming your way mean what could be implied.

I actually would talk to the GM and party to see if they like how much of a powerhouse you are (privately if possible), and would like if you to learned veteran tricks to improve, or if they enjoy this level or perhaps even less. It gives a chance to air things out and perhaps give the GM room to explain their satisfaction with this outcome. Sometimes GMs get a pride thing and think they can solve char-gen generosity mid-game with illusionism (choices don't matter) & faked rolls (fiat decisions wasting time with randomizer consultation). It is a bad habit that can cause needless hard feelings.

[muprice59]

haha - i'm an adult and I can understand and appreciate what the DM is doing, but my point is more along the lines of, "if i'm going to take damage whenever it's convenient for me to not overpower the game, i may as well do as much damage as I can" kind of question...

does that make sense?

[muprice59]

A lot depends on what rules you are using. Personally, I would not lean towards a cestus, save as a back-up weapon; if you have weapon-smithing, getting that Bastard Sword is going to be a big help... though, if your half-ogre is counted as Large, you might also think about a giant-sized two-handed sword... swinging 9 feet for steel is going to be a pretty nasty big of damage.

How long would it take me to smith a bastard sword on my own? How available are high quality / magic bastard swords in decent sized cities? How much do those types of weapons cost?

I am a Large creature (almost 8' tall 300LBs) - i'll have to get my CFH out and read up on 2 handed swords.

If I did that would you suggest specializing in both the sword and in the two handed weapon fighting style?

We basically play btb PHB / CFH / DMG for 2e but our DM allows some small things that make gameplay faster / easier (we do not do all of the initiative or speed rules perse).

Thank you!

[opaopajr]

Well, it is easy to overpower the game by getting a big pile of darts in a quiver-hamper, have someone (PC, henchmen, hireling, etc.) carry said quiver-hamper of darts next to you, and go to town like Dirty Harry. And then you can specialize in it to get an additional attack, going from 3/1 to 4/1 a round... At some point it changes the tone of the game.

[muprice59]

Well, it is easy to overpower the game by getting a big pile of darts in a quiver-hamper, have someone (PC, henchmen, hireling, etc.) carry said quiver-hamper of darts next to you, and go to town like Dirty Harry. And then you can specialize in it to get an additional attack, going from 3/1 to 4/1 a round... At some point it changes the tone of the game.

yeah that makes sense!

[rax]

If you feel like you're being hit more often than is statistically reasonable and your main concern is doing damage, have you considered doing without the shield and wielding your spear two-handed? After all, killing or driving off the enemy as quickly as possible will also mitigate the damage you're taking.

A normal spear wielded in both hands ups your base weapon damage to 1d8+1/2d6, putting you slightly ahead of one-handed damage with a bastard sword (1d8/1d12). Both weapons have the same speed factor if your table is using those rules.

If your DM is using the weapon quality rules from the DMG, excellent quality may be providing you with +1 to hit or damage. If he's using the weapon quality rules from the CFH, that's equivalent to fine quality, and there's also exceptional quality for +1 to both to hit and damage.

[MeeposFire]

A lot depends on what rules you are using. Personally, I would not lean towards a cestus, save as a back-up weapon; if you have weapon-smithing, getting that Bastard Sword is going to be a big help... though, if your half-ogre is counted as Large, you might also think about a giant-sized two-handed sword... swinging 9 feet for steel is going to be a pretty nasty big of damage.

Depending on the rules you are using and how much you are willing to invest those cesti can be really nasty. If you invest in two weapon fighting (+1 attack at less penalties), punching specialization (extra attack +X to hit and damage where X is how many prof you put into it), cestus specialization (+1 hit +2 damage more attacks), pick up tumbling (+2 to hit with punching), possibly using punch results, and it adds up. Biggest problem is usually magic weapons because that is not a common weapon to find magical.

[opaopajr]

With darts (lesser extent knives & daggers) & the DMG "Fighter gets attacks equal to their level vs. HD-1 creatures" optional rule (if GM is using it), your PC is a mob wiping machine even at mid-level. It's mainly due to the STR bonuses. WPs elsewhere are kinda extra gravy on drowning mashed potatoes.

By the way, the game's core default Initiative is: Group Initiative, Group Modifier. There are two other optional methods: Group Initiative, Individual Modifier -and- Individual Initiative, Individual Modifier. Speed Factors and a lot of the like (including WPs/NWPs) are options, not default. Second edition is a surprisingly bare bones core system if you want it to be. You may want to give it a try GMing in the future; it is easier than it may seem.

[Lord Torath]

You can go with the dart specialist, but I'd try to avoid it (but that's just personal preference. I've never rolled up a fighter and envisioned them as a dart thrower). How's your dexterity? If it's pretty high, you might consider dropping the shield for a short-sword in your off-hand for an extra attack. Another option if you have a high dexterity is longbow/composite longbow specialization. Are you using the Players Option: Combat and Tactics weapons specialization? That adds additional bow attacks at higher levels if I recall correctly.

As for procuring a new bastard sword, that's up to your DM. They really shouldn't be much rarer than longswords, unless your DM gave you a specific warning about them at character creation. It should certainly be much easier to acquire a new blade than to purchase a weaponsmithing-shop and the tools and raw materials to make your own Cesti. I'd talk to your DM about it. Is your DM going to roll randomly to determine magical treasures? In that case, you might want to stick to the Longsword, the most common type of magic weapon. If your DM will customize magical treasures to your party, you shouldn't need to worry.

[Corvus]

Even if you aren't going dart specialist, it is still handy to keep them around because of the way magic works.

Unlike 3E, magic in 2E actually had mechanisms to balance it out. One of those was that casters didn't have concentration. If they hadn't already cast the spell then any hit caused them to fail to cast. The other was that the more powerful the spell, the long it generally took to cast - basically a much larger modifier to initiative.

The great thing about darts is that they are really, really fast compared to most spells so you can peg a few at the wizard over in the corner and ruin his day.

[opaopajr]

Very good point, Corvus! "Martial spell interrupt" is a very big divide between TSR D&D v. WotC D&D.

And it is good to remember that one of the big advantages of Fighters is being able to use just about any martial gear available on hand (along with protect scrolls!). So self-restricting down to only one or two weapons or armors sort of defeats their strengths. They are a threat wherever they are because they can optimize gear to the area's climate & wealth and focus on going to town on the opposition.

Darts ARE controllable on a PC like yours -- but it is done through 'ammo availability'. You don't have infinite darts, and the GM can control easy access to gross amounts. It is my "quiver-hamper" and "ammo mule" () in my example that does the campaign damage, less so your STR 19.

So 3-6 darts is not a bad idea just to have... four score+ and the GM may need to talk.

[Corvus]

To be honest, a strength 19 dart specialist doesn't really need more than half a dozen darts to mess up most things. It gets more obscene if you have a Dark Sun half-giant dart specialist, given they could start with up to 24 strength. Just be prepared for the DM to drop the Dragon on you as a result :)

But yeah, darts aren't actually small. I think the name tends to make people think of darts used to throw at dartboards. In reality they were around a foot long weighted throwing spike so carrying a lot of them would be hard.

But 2e fighters are really great, especially given that they weren't considered dumb, uneducated brutes like later editions seemed to shoehorn them into. They were actually useful outside of combat - from memory they had more non-weapon proficiencies than rogues and as many as wizards before intelligence was taken into account (and you weren't penalised as bad for taking int as a 2e fighter as you were in later editions.)

Given the mention of cestus, I take it you have access to the Complete Book of Fighters. Cestus works very well with punching as you can mix and match bonuses from memory, gain multiple levels of specialistion for bigger bonus to hit/damage and of course modifiy the punching chart to try and get the best chance to KO the enemy.

[Lord Torath]

Given the mention of cestus, I take it you have access to the Complete Book of Fighters. Cestus works very well with punching as you can mix and match bonuses from memory, gain multiple levels of specialistion for bigger bonus to hit/damage and of course modifiy the punching chart to try and get the best chance to KO the enemy.

If you can get your DM to OK the Gladiator class from Dark Sun, you can get a +/- 4 to your unarmed fighting results (if I recall correctly), which would combine very nicely. You also might be able to upgrade your cestus to a Talid (Type: P/S/B, Size: S Speed Factor: 2 Damage: 1d6/1d6-1).

[Algeh]

My bastard sword was melted by some form of an ooze monster and now I'm using a spear (of excellent manufacture my DM stated, but I'm not sure what that means).

Even with AC1 it kinda feels like my DM hits me whenever needed to keep the group balanced (no DM would EVER do that, right? Just uber lucky rolling 19's and 20's all the time lol)....

Have you tried to determine if the spear is magical and, if so, if it's cursed? Surprise cursed items were much more of a "thing" in older editions, and if you got an "excellent" weapon of unknown history at the same time monsters started hitting you more, that would be an alternate explanation. I'm not saying it's definitely the case, just that it's something to keep in mind and try to test for if you haven't yet.

[Mutazoia]

Bastard swords are great...use them one or two-handed (No..there is no such thing as a one-handed bastard sword or a two-handed bastard sword), but the drawback is that most magic swords you find are going to be longswords. Unless your DM is feeling generous. I would still try to replace it as soon as possible, however, as it is really a better option than the spear for up close and personal fights.


As for the Cestus idea...as someone else said, I would keep it as a backup plan but don't burn your specialization points on it. There are a lot of things in the game that you don't want to be getting into a fistfight with...such as that slime that ate your sword. Imagine if you had punched that. Plus, if you go with the cestus on each hand, you can't use your shield, and your AC changes and you get even easier to hit.


Typically I would either double specialize in a weapon or specialize in one melee and one ranged weapon.

[MeeposFire]

Bastard swords are great...use them one or two-handed (No..there is no such thing as a one-handed bastard sword or a two-handed bastard sword), but the drawback is that most magic swords you find are going to be longswords. Unless your DM is feeling generous. I would still try to replace it as soon as possible, however, as it is really a better option than the spear for up close and personal fights.


As for the Cestus idea...as someone else said, I would keep it as a backup plan but don't burn your specialization points on it. There are a lot of things in the game that you don't want to be getting into a fistfight with...such as that slime that ate your sword. Imagine if you had punched that. Plus, if you go with the cestus on each hand, you can't use your shield, and your AC changes and you get even easier to hit.


Typically I would either double specialize in a weapon or specialize in one melee and one ranged weapon.

Not that you should always go this far into dumpster diving but you could use a kote from The Complete Fighters Handbook which acts like a buckler but is on your shoulders. Would that work with weapons in those hands ask the DM. Also you will almost certainly never find a magic one.

[Mutazoia]

Not that you should always go this far into dumpster diving but you could use a kote from The Complete Fighters Handbook which acts like a buckler but is on your shoulders. Would that work with weapons in those hands ask the DM. Also you will almost certainly never find a magic one.

If we're going to haul out "The Complete X" books, that's a whole 'nuther bucket of leeches....

[MeeposFire]

If we're going to haul out "The Complete X" books, that's a whole 'nuther bucket of leeches....

Well since that is the first place where you get the cestus and the punching rules it is not as far out there as you may think.

[CapnWildefyr]

In a way this is off topic, but carry some kind of ranged weapon. No sure what would go with a pit fighter, but carry something - darts as suggested, a javelin, extra spears for throwing, something. Your DM reminds me of me as a DM: I will try to make everyone "feel the pinch" because most people find it boring if there is no risk ever. Sometimes it's nice to wade through hordes unscathed, but not every time. So my next step would be ranged encounters. Also, think about flaming oil and acid. As a half ogre, maybe that solves both problems. 1, douse combatant with oil. 2. Set on fire. 3. Hurl flaming missile. : )

[lightningcat]

While I would never suggest this for a primary weapon choice, you might want to get a bunch of darts. Even at 1st level you get 3 attacks, each dealing 1d4+strength bonus damage. You never need to do anything to improve this, but it will improve as you level. Plus it remains a nice short range weapon for high strength fighters which are normally melee only.

EDIT: Missed the previous mention of the high strength dart fighter.

[LibraryOgre]

While I would never suggest this for a primary weapon choice, you might want to get a bunch of darts. Even at 1st level you get 3 attacks, each dealing 1d4+strength bonus damage. You never need to do anything to improve this, but it will improve as you level. Plus it remains a nice short range weapon for high strength fighters which are normally melee only.

EDIT: Missed the previous mention of the high strength dart fighter.

It still tickles me that *I* learned about that tactic because Combat and Tactics specifically had a suggested rule to address it. We'd played for years, and no one said "You know what? I wanna see if I can cause unreasonable damage with this."

[Lord Torath]

It still tickles me that *I* learned about that tactic because Combat and Tactics specifically had a suggested rule to address it. We'd played for years, and no one said "You know what? I wanna see if I can cause unreasonable damage with this."

Baldur's Gate, with the Dart Thrower in one of the southern regions. I think he was wearing Bracers of Archery, as well. He killed me multiple times...

But yeah, it obviously hasn't been an issue in your games.

Closest I've come to exploiting high strength and multiple attacks like that is an Ambidextrous dual quad-wielding thri-kreen specialized in Wrist Razors. But I've never actually even made that character, let alone played it. I like the Zerka (harpoon that does as much damage coming out as it does going in) for its versatility and flavor when it comes to thri-kreen characters.

[LibraryOgre]

Baldur's Gate, with the Dart Thrower in one of the southern regions. I think he was wearing Bracers of Archery, as well. He killed me multiple times...

C&T came out years before Baldur's Gate, whippersnapper. ;-)

Closest I've come to exploiting high strength and multiple attacks like that is an Ambidextrous dual quad-wielding thri-kreen specialized in Wrist Razors. But I've never actually even made that character, let alone played it. I like the Zerka (harpoon that does as much damage coming out as it does going in) for its versatility and flavor when it comes to thri-kreen characters.

Dark Sun was made for the crazy stuff, TBH.

[Lord Torath]

C&T came out years before Baldur's Gate, whippersnapper. ;-)

Yeah, but I didn't actually pick up PO:C&T until about 5 years ago. And who you calling "Whippersnapper", young'un?

[Corvus]

Dark Sun was made for the crazy stuff, TBH.

Dark Sun was, after all, the home of the (in)famous Str 24 half giant specialist dart thrower.

Of course the DM was quite at liberty to drop The Dragon on you if you played that build.

[MeeposFire]

Baldur's Gate, with the Dart Thrower in one of the southern regions. I think he was wearing Bracers of Archery, as well. He killed me multiple times...

But yeah, it obviously hasn't been an issue in your games.

Closest I've come to exploiting high strength and multiple attacks like that is an Ambidextrous dual quad-wielding thri-kreen specialized in Wrist Razors. But I've never actually even made that character, let alone played it. I like the Zerka (harpoon that does as much damage coming out as it does going in) for its versatility and flavor when it comes to thri-kreen characters.

The funny thing about that dart throwing bandit is that Baldur's Gate did not allow str mod to dart damage (also none to throwing daggers but it did to magical slings and throwing axes) so it did not make most of the combo.

[Zombimode]

By the way, the game's core default Initiative is: Group Initiative, Group Modifier. There are two other optional methods: Group Initiative, Individual Modifier -and- Individual Initiative, Individual Modifier. Speed Factors and a lot of the like (including WPs/NWPs) are options, not default.

That is a bit misleading. Everything in AD&D is build arround individual initiative. Weapon balance, spell casting times, interuptability of spellcasting... It is not an afterthought but an integral part of the game. Sure, there are other options for initiative but they are not equal. You do make a sacrifice for the benefits in speed and simplicity.

[opaopajr]

That is a bit misleading. Everything in AD&D is build arround individual initiative. Weapon balance, spell casting times, interuptability of spellcasting... It is not an afterthought but an integral part of the game. Sure, there are other options for initiative but they are not equal. You do make a sacrifice for the benefits in speed and simplicity.

Nope, it's not. Just re-read my AD&D 2e PHB because I am running a campaign soon. The core default mode is Group Initiative, Group Mod (called 'Group Init., Standard Mods'). In fact the PHB and DMG go into discussion of how it is a GM decision to use the two optional methods AND the benefits and challenges of each method in comparison to the default, WITH suggestions of keeping it to Group Init. when dealing with large numbers of combatants. And they further go on that a GM can mix it up within the same battle, to slow down or speed up the process to coincide with the battle momentum, so the flexibility of method extends even down to the round as it pleases the table.

Using Individual Speed Mods is a matter of taste of discrete sub-systems, (just like Bludgeon/Slash/Pierce has contained effect to a specific monster's Special Attacks/Defenses entry or if you are using the optional B/P/S Armor rules). Further it does not prevent "Martial Counterspell" at all, and in fact allows for amusing Double K.O. simultaneous occurences more frequently (due to less initiative rolls and mods flying about). TSR products very much provided extra info to be used at table discretion; the supposition that all content provided alludes to expectated use is a very modern WotC-era reading of the text. And as an oldie who was there, let me reassure you -- beyond the text's own words saying use these extra values if and when you want for your own game -- we as players understood optional meant optional.

Naturally you can have your own aesthetic preferences, and champion them all you like (and for certain games and situations you may find I wholly agree with your aesthetics, too!), but the text is clear. No misleading, nothing to read into, just an ownership of one's campaign and a flexibility to play it your own way.