The Jellicle Ball

[Valmark]

@AV would the wolf kill reveal somebody to a tracker?

I think Aventine's plan is solid- something should be revealed either way.

And honestly, I doubt there aren't all the roles. It's 11 on 14 people after all! If I didn't miscount.

[Elenna]

I'd feel significantly better about Aventine's plan if there weren't a cult in this game. Although I suppose it's possible AV took out the cult because of the low number of players, but I wouldn't count on it.

This is how I envision this would go if there wasn't a cult:

• Presumably Aventine has actually sent QTs to everyone. If they haven't, that would be super easy to disprove.
• Jenny watches Aventine tonight. Nobody else from town should target Aventine. So then we can assume anyone else Jenny sees is a wolf. This includes the baner, btw - if Aventine dies, so much the better, we can lynch the people that Jenny saw targeting them.
• Regardless of what Jenny sees, they claim tomorrow. They can prove they are either Jenny or a wolf who's talked to Grizabella by posting the quote that Aventine sent in each QT.
• If there are no counterclaims, then Jenny is almost certainly who they say they are (I say almost because AV might have gotten rid of some roles, but I can't imagine AV keeping only one of Jenny and Grizabella). Everyone claims to them in the night and a town network is started.
• If there is a counterclaim, we lynch whichever one seems more suspicious. Either we've gotten a wolf (in which case the other claimer is Jenny and we start a network), or we've lynched Jenny (which would be unfortunate, but at least we can lynch a wolf the next day).

The problem with the cult is mainly that if Jenny claims, they will almost certainly be recruited eventually. Yes, there's a doctor, but a) they can't protect the same person two nights in a row and b) they might be killed at some point. Then we have two issues:
1. Jenny has a bit of a catch-22. If they follow the above plan and claim, they will be putting town in a good position to win, but they might become part of the cult and lose themselves. If they don't claim, town will be in a worse position, but they will still be part of town. Presumably Jenny's goal is to win personally, regardless of whether they win as town or cult. I'm not sure what Jenny should do there, honestly, but the uncertainty isn't great for town.
2. Assuming Jenny claims, town PRs have a reason not to claim to Jenny, because they will eventually also become cult targets. Although, again, maybe they want to become cult targets and try to win with cult. IDK, but again, the uncertainty isn't great.

I almost wonder if it's a good idea to have the doctor protect Jenny N2 and then lynch Jenny D3. That way Jenny is guaranteed to die as town (meaning they no longer have a reason not to help), and cult never finds out the claims that Jenny got. Wasting a lynch on a townie is unfortunate, but I feel like it's our best option since there isn't a town vig.

[gac3]

Everyone claims to them in the night and a town network is started.

Except that the wolves can just as easily watch Jenny that night and get all of those claims. That's my biggest concern here.


Edit: concern is a stretch.

[Elenna]

Except that the wolves can just as easily watch Jenny that night and get all of those claims. That's my biggest concern here.


Edit: concern is a stretch.

...you know, somehow I completely missed that.

...technically, long PM chains don't count as QTs that can be seen, right? (This comment is probably just going to prompt AV to make a rule about that, tbh). What about each player PM-ing Jenny with their role?

[gac3]

...you know, somehow I completely missed that.

...technically, long PM chains don't count as QTs that can be seen, right? (This comment is probably just going to prompt AV to make a rule about that, tbh). What about each player PM-ing Jenny with their role?

Actually AV said to me (without me asking about it at all)

Oh, and while you can legally get around that power by using PMs to do all your networking instead, know that I and everybody involved will hate you forever if you do. :P

[Apogee1]

Yeah setting up town networks is a big risk with both cultists and pm watchers around. I've been thinking of ways to do some of it (that I'll keep to myself until I try to implement some to stop the baddies from getting ahead of it) but it's much harder to keep information and claims safe in this format.

Which, although it's not easy, is kind of a fun challenge!

[Valmark]

New network each day? That's a start.

And I don't mind getting hated (related to the PM thing)

[gac3]

New network each day? That's a start.

And I don't mind getting hated (related to the PM thing)

See I had a plan about messaging everyone and then telling them all to delete/edit any claims or anything before night end and we would start a new QT afterwards but that got shot down. I asked about it and AV said:

No deleting. Try to keep editing minimal and for correcting mistakes. Read receipts are always a thing, anyway.

[Bunny of Faith]

I'd feel significantly better about Aventine's plan if there weren't a cult in this game. Although I suppose it's possible AV took out the cult because of the low number of players, but I wouldn't count on it.

This is how I envision this would go if there wasn't a cult:

• Presumably Aventine has actually sent QTs to everyone. If they haven't, that would be super easy to disprove.
• Jenny watches Aventine tonight. Nobody else from town should target Aventine. So then we can assume anyone else Jenny sees is a wolf. This includes the baner, btw - if Aventine dies, so much the better, we can lynch the people that Jenny saw targeting them.
• Regardless of what Jenny sees, they claim tomorrow. They can prove they are either Jenny or a wolf who's talked to Grizabella by posting the quote that Aventine sent in each QT.
• If there are no counterclaims, then Jenny is almost certainly who they say they are (I say almost because AV might have gotten rid of some roles, but I can't imagine AV keeping only one of Jenny and Grizabella). Everyone claims to them in the night and a town network is started.
• If there is a counterclaim, we lynch whichever one seems more suspicious. Either we've gotten a wolf (in which case the other claimer is Jenny and we start a network), or we've lynched Jenny (which would be unfortunate, but at least we can lynch a wolf the next day).

The problem with the cult is mainly that if Jenny claims, they will almost certainly be recruited eventually. Yes, there's a doctor, but a) they can't protect the same person two nights in a row and b) they might be killed at some point. Then we have two issues:
1. Jenny has a bit of a catch-22. If they follow the above plan and claim, they will be putting town in a good position to win, but they might become part of the cult and lose themselves. If they don't claim, town will be in a worse position, but they will still be part of town. Presumably Jenny's goal is to win personally, regardless of whether they win as town or cult. I'm not sure what Jenny should do there, honestly, but the uncertainty isn't great for town.
2. Assuming Jenny claims, town PRs have a reason not to claim to Jenny, because they will eventually also become cult targets. Although, again, maybe they want to become cult targets and try to win with cult. IDK, but again, the uncertainty isn't great.

I almost wonder if it's a good idea to have the doctor protect Jenny N2 and then lynch Jenny D3. That way Jenny is guaranteed to die as town (meaning they no longer have a reason not to help), and cult never finds out the claims that Jenny got. Wasting a lynch on a townie is unfortunate, but I feel like it's our best option since there isn't a town vig.

Short answer to a long post, but Old Deuteronomy could also declare Jenny the Jellicle Choice, which allows her to win in this scenario. Which would be a nice thing to do, but not as good as using it against a wolf to knock them out of the game as a pseudo-NK.

[gac3]

Short answer to a long post, but Old Deuteronomy could also declare Jenny the Jellicle Choice, which allows her to win in this scenario. Which would be a nice thing to do, but not as good as using it against a wolf to knock them out of the game as a pseudo-NK.

Or using it against one of the neutrals to keep them from siding with wolves.

[Valmark]

See I had a plan about messaging everyone and then telling them all to delete/edit any claims or anything before night end and we would start a new QT afterwards but that got shot down. I asked about it and AV said:

At least by making new towncores they won't know the plans for that one night >.>

[JeenLeen]

Short answer to a long post, but Old Deuteronomy could also declare Jenny the Jellicle Choice, which allows her to win in this scenario. Which would be a nice thing to do, but not as good as using it against a wolf to knock them out of the game as a pseudo-NK.

Hmm... I had an idea based on the Jellicle Choice, but I wasn't sure if it would work. I guess I'll go ahead and state it.

I'm not Old Deuteronomy, but I reckon they would go along with this.
WOLVES: one of you rat out the other wolves. We then lynch one of the wolves you name. If they flip wolf, you get named the Jellicle Choice.

Alternatively:
WHOEVER GETS CONVERTED TO CULT TONIGHT: rat out your boss. You get named the Jellicle Choice and your boss gets lynched.

If the goal of every player is really to win, this should work out well for Town and a rat, plus the Jellicle-kill bags a wolf or cultist.


---

Also, I have some thoughts on Elenna's plans and actions in response to Aventine's plan, but I want to make sure I get everything straight before posting it. The webinars I've been watching today have been WAY more boring than anticipated, so I've been here some, but I owe it to reread and really think before I respond to her.

[Apogee1]

New network each day? That's a start.

And I don't mind getting hated (related to the PM thing)

Yeah the first thing we do for sure is send each other new QTs through PMs at the start of every day phase.

[gac3]

About a third of the way through my mass QT plot


Okay guys. I've sent them all out. It should be good to go

[Logan1996]

All this talk about tonight and tomorrow. Does this mean that we don't care who we lynch today? Because nobody is talking about that

[Valmark]

What Logan's saying makes sense- a single wagon with random votes all around makes little sense.

I'll add a vote on Elenna. I don't really have anything on anybody yet (obviously) but maybe her third vote mistake wasn't really a mistake? Surely she didn't remove it after that.

[Bunny of Faith]

Shockingly enough I'm going to be swapping my vote to Elenna, because I don't really want to die on the first day. They're providing opinions on things which is good and so I feel a little bad, but they're also voting for me so not so much.

Knowing that there are QT-reading powers out and about is making it more stressful to communicate with people though. Not only do I have to try and work out who can trusted, which is hard enough, but then on top of that you've still got to work under the assumption that whatever you write in QTs will also be read at some point. AV, you're evil.

[Valmark]

To be fair, I find that only mildly annoying. After all, every time you write to someone you're already taking a risk- this just makes it more universal.

[Aventine]

Not sure I'm a fan of the sudden movement to Elenna. Have some pressure Valmark.

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All this talk about tonight and tomorrow. Does this mean that we don't care who we lynch today? Because nobody is talking about that

I rather strongly dislike this. Calling people out for not analyzing, while not analyzing?

[gac3]

Not sure I'm a fan of the sudden movement to Elenna. Have some pressure Valmark.

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I rather strongly dislike this. Calling people out for not analyzing, while not analyzing?

To be fair, I read it more as people just acting like the day is over. I read it as a town move because why would a wolf remind people at all? And he didn't say anything about anylizing.

[AvatarVecna]

@AV would the wolf kill reveal somebody to a tracker?

Yes. Macavity performs the kill if Macavity is the only mafia left. Otherwise, one random non-Macavity mafia performs the kill.

New network each day? That's a start.

And I don't mind getting hated (related to the PM thing)

Spoiler

Show

[Elenna]

But what if I don't mind getting hated either?

Alternatively, what if Jenny gets claims from everyone by PM and then sends a QT link by PM to the people they trust, and then people only post in the QT under fake names? Not sure how helpful that would be when you have to assume the wolves will get access to that QT sooner or later, but they could at least trust that the only people posting in there are townies. Or converted cultists, I guess...

Also, I was talking in a QT and realized that Bunny isn't in my top 3 list of really good players (no offence, Bunny, but you did say you were rusty) and also isn't in my list of players that are likely to be ignored (mostly because of that play in Beware of Bites). I still feel like guessing who Macavity would have picked is pretty WIFOM-y, but I guess some logic is better than no logic, so switching to JeenLeen for pulling off some nice plays in Beware of Bites and therefore maybe being a more likely choice for a wolf.

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Oh, and a couple questions for AV:

@AV: I assume Jenny and Grizabella can't target dead players. What happens if they target someone who dies that same night?
Also, if Bombalurina dies, does the cult lose their ability to convert?

[gac3]

Hmmmm... I'm realizing that I normally see people asking questions like "how would this power work in this situation" as a town read when done publically despite the fact I almost always do it privately.

[Apogee1]

But what if I don't mind getting hated either?

Alternatively, what if Jenny gets claims from everyone by PM and then sends a QT link by PM to the people they trust, and then people only post in the QT under fake names? Not sure how helpful that would be when you have to assume the wolves will get access to that QT sooner or later, but they could at least trust that the only people posting in there are townies. Or converted cultists, I guess...

Also, I was talking in a QT and realized that Bunny isn't in my top 3 list of really good players (no offence, Bunny, but you did say you were rusty) and also isn't in my list of players that are likely to be ignored (mostly because of that play in Beware of Bites). I still feel like guessing who Macavity would have picked is pretty WIFOM-y, but I guess some logic is better than no logic, so switching to JeenLeen for pulling off some nice plays in Beware of Bites and therefore maybe being a more likely choice for a wolf.

Still doesn't matter if someone gets access to Jenny's PMs. The problem with pretty much any private claiming system I can think of is that it requires an initial leap of faith in trusting one person, who is then immediately liable to either be culted or qt peeked.

[gac3]

Still doesn't matter if someone gets access to Jenny's PMs. The problem with pretty much any private claiming system I can think of is that it requires an initial leap of faith in trusting one person, who is then immediately liable to either be culted or qt peeked.

Jenny would have to share pms

[AvatarVecna]

@AV: I assume Jenny and Grizabella can't target dead players. What happens if they target someone who dies that same night?
Also, if Bombalurina dies, does the cult lose their ability to convert?

Yes, no targeting dead players. If a player being watched dies the same night, the watcher still gets their QTs at time of death. If Bombalurina dies, the cult loses their ability to convert. However the remaining cultists (if any) can still attempt to eke out a win for their faction.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

• If there are no counterclaims, then Jenny is almost certainly who they say they are (I say almost because AV might have gotten rid of some roles, but I can't imagine AV keeping only one of Jenny and Grizabella). Everyone claims to them in the night and a town network is started.

I almost wonder if it's a good idea to have the doctor protect Jenny N2 and then lynch Jenny D3. That way Jenny is guaranteed to die as town (meaning they no longer have a reason not to help), and cult never finds out the claims that Jenny got. Wasting a lynch on a townie is unfortunate, but I feel like it's our best option since there isn't a town vig.

I don't like a lot of Elenna's post, the two main bits above.

- If everyone claims to Jenny and we have not gotten rid of Grizabella, then Grizabella will target Jenny N2 and get access to all those QTs/claims. We're handing all the info to the wolves (if Grizabella is dead, there's still the cult problem).

- You're then suggesting we lynch a guarenteed townie?? That's an extra night for the Cult to recruit and Wolves to kill.

I don't see town benefiting much from that plan. Also was going to add in the suggestion of the Jellicle Choice, but other people have pointed that out already.

---

Logan's prod seems townish to me but not a guarantee by any means.

@Logan Actually, you did ask for us to focus on today's lynch but you leave your vote as the only one on Snow. Are you sure enough that you actually want to push a wagon on Snow? Cause leaving it there doesn't seem to encourage discussion and you didn't bring up other suggestions yourself.

---

Anyone else notice that JoywonderLove popped in and claimed vanilla villager and didn't contribute at all? Even a nonsense random vote?

Joy has been very public about not liking Day 1 votes, but if any game has discussion on day 1 this would be it.

@JoyWonderLove, any comment on the goings on of today?

---

Leaving my vote on Jeen to have wagon options. Even though I'd like Joy to talk I'm not sure another vote will pressure them enough to get a response.

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Vote Count:
Elenna 3 (flat_footed, Valmark, Bunny of Faith)
Valmark 2 (Snowblaze, Aventine)
Snowblaze 1 (Logan1996)
Bunny of Faith 1 (JeenLeen)
JeenLeen 2 (CaoimhinTheCape, Elenna)
Aventine 1 (Apogee1)
Logan1996 1 (Book Wombat)
JoyWonderLove 1 (gac3)

Not Voting: JoyWonderLove, Unavenger

[JoyWonderLove]

Joy has been very public about not liking Day 1 votes, but if any game has discussion on day 1 this would be it.

@JoyWonderLove, any comment on the goings on of today?

Yup.

I feel like it's wise to take a very strongly meta view of this entire game. Much more than normal. We're not so much playing Mafia this time, as we are Kitty Conversion: AV Edition (extra strong). Every single round, unless we vote off the Cult leader/Bombalurina, or they bump into a Mafia player, there can and will be a Cult conversion. And it's fair to say the Mafia/Macavity will push one at least every other round, instead of every single round, because they're limited. The Mafia has to be more mindful.

For the reasons of mass Mafia and Cult conversions throughout the entire game, I'm effectively immune to Mafia conversions. Why would the Mafia/Macavity (in particular) waste one of three rare conversions on a player that has no powers to lose, hasn't been that active in the last game anyway, and generally isn't seen as a Top 8 player? I know exactly who my Top 3 would be, and pinky swear, I don't make my own list. 'Haha!' you say. 'But that makes you the ideal candidate!' Not really. Again, the Mafia has much more valuable hopefuls (Jeen, Elenna, gac3, Snowblaze, Aventine, etc). I'm closer to immune than any other player.

In other words, by my being only a passable player, being easily the weakest link on the werewolves side last game, and having a relaxed posting rate, AV has understandably given me a more easygoing role. But the funny irony of it is that by being given no powers whatsoever, I'm the closest thing Town has right now to a Core network. At least to start. The truth is that I'm closer to some semi-isolated independent island nation called Indifference (with the capital being Shrugvania – yeah, we're still working on the name).

Communication wise, PMs are the best bet in general. Qts are obviously questionable but still useful.

In this particular game, a stable and true Town Core will take a little more energy. Town Cores are obviously built on trust. So, due to the mass conversions, our Jennydots and Bustopher Jones have to really put in the effort to build a network. Our Jenny also needs to be open to the idea of testing at night (to ensure she isn't converted) through asking via PM 'hey, I posted a QT reply, sorry for being a pain, could you please reply or say what it says?' when Town discovers who she is. That's the only way to ensure she's not converted. Bustopher Jones, if Cult converted, cannot immediately be verified (but we would find out when we vote against the scried person, only to realize Bustopher gave the wrong cat name). This is a tricky win to gain as Town. But I'm sure we can do it, with a little teamwork and potential compromises.

And, as a 'powerless' Vanillager, I do not care about sticking my head above the parapet.


@Neutrals: We Vaniallagers are your best friends! You win if the people you steal from make it to the end game, right? Well, no one cares about Vaniallgers. Chat and vote with us! (Well, obviously, I dislike Day 1 voting, but next round). We can have a very happy agreement going.


@Bombalurina: Whoever you are, be open to an uneasy truce with Town (especially middle to late game). Both Town and you will benefit (ironically) in a middling to worse case scenario. Think about it. You cannot convert the Mafia. They can target any of us at night. Our day vote is our only reply. As a pseudo Seer, you could help us remove a mutual threat, if you don't overdo the conversions. We might very well need to vote with each other in a middle/worse case scenario against a more capable but savvy Mafia force.

To make things interesting, I'm 100% open to not highlighting your identity, exclusively if you're open to me passing along any Mafia alignments you might bump into. This will effectively give us two seers against the Mafia and give you, Bombalurina, much more time to move untouched and unseen. The Mafia will be forced to waste their night target against me (a harmless Vanillager), and so give more important Town roles more time to build momentum and gather information, as well. Both Town and the Cult will benefit until our uneasy truce has to be worked out formally (no reason we can't declare a draw, but I'll leave that to whoever is still around late game).

As beloved leader of the semi-isolated independent island nation called Indifference, voted Vanillager of the Year, I cautiously extend a Towny greeting to you. Our campaign is clear: Just Say No To The Mafioso!

[Snowblaze]

Anyone else notice that JoywonderLove popped in and claimed vanilla villager and didn't contribute at all? Even a nonsense random vote?

That’s JoyWonderLove’s usual style, regardless of alignment. The fact they’ve revealed their name as well implies they’re either a vanillager or Macavity, and I find the former much more likely.

Not a massive fan of Aventine’s argument of “anyone disagreeing with my plan is automatically suspicious”. Especially since I happen to disagree with it myself.

If we want Jenny to confirm themselves as town (to clarify, I am not advocating this course of action, at least not yet) they could just as easily claim today, since presumably wolves wouldn’t want to sacrifice one of their own on a counterclaim. Or, as long as they targeted literally anyone with a QT, they could confirm themselves by saying “the first word in your QT with X is Y”.

I fail to see exactly what town gains from this plan.

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The kitten was confused. Everyone seemed to be plotting something, some kind of private system of secrets to track down Macavity. It would have been delightful fun if it hadn’t been so complicated.

(OOC:

@Bunny of Faith: a bit early for self-preservation, don’t you think?

@Caoimhin: adorable though your picture is, I am clearly a white kitten.)

[Snowblaze]

@AV:

Does Macavity have access to the standard vanillager role PM?

If someone is converted to the cult, will they scry as town or cult on the night of their conversion? And, if they are a power role, will they have the stronger or weaker ability on that night?