The Jellicle Ball

[Snowblaze]

Rough readlist:
Town lean: Aventine, JoyWonderLove, CaoimhinTheCape
Weak town lean: Apogee1, JeenLeen
Null: Book Wombat, Unavenger, flat_footed, Elenna
Weak scum lean: Bunny of Faith, Logan1996
Scum lean: Valmark
Claimed neutral: gac3

(Don’t hold me to this, I made it without reading the thread in much detail. Just going on general impressions. Let me know if you want elaboration on any of those, by the way!)

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Current vote count:
Elenna 5 (flat_footed, Valmark, Bunny of Faith, JeenLeen, Logan1996)
Valmark 2 (Snowblaze, Aventine)
JeenLeen 2 (CaoimhinTheCape, Elenna)
Aventine 1 (Apogee1)
Logan1996 1 (Book Wombat)
JoyWonderLove 1 (gac3)
Posted without voting 2 (JoyWonderLove, Unavenger)

There are approximately five or six hours left in the day, if I’m right.

I’ll stop taking up the entire thread and wait for other people to show up now.

[Valmark]

This... doesn't make sense. At all.

"Yes, we should have more wagons".

"Making wagons by accident and then being okay with said wagons is suspicious".

That's a pretty blatant contradiction. And then when Aventine calls you out on it, you respond "Aventine and Elenna could be buddies!"

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Not to mention:
Bunny of Faith votes Elenna for self-preservation.

Aventine doesn’t remark on this, despite pushing you for your vote on Elenna, and having called out early self-preservation votes in the past.

Aventine and Elenna must be wolfbuddies!

I gave a reason though? Which was admittedly flimsy but a reason nonetheless- My only really random vote was my initial one on Apogee.

And I only theorized their allegiance on Bunny's thing- I never had problems with the vote on myself alone.

(Also saying 'must' is a stretch- got a theory, I'm going to try and check wether it's wrong or not)

I thought I had been pretty clear but I'm getting the feeling it might have been misworded >.>

[Snowblaze]

I gave a reason though? Which was admittedly flimsy but a reason nonetheless- My only really random vote was my initial one on Apogee.

And I only theorized their allegiance on Bunny's thing- I never had problems with the vote on myself alone.

(Also saying 'must' is a stretch- got a theory, I'm going to try and check wether it's wrong or not)

I thought I had been pretty clear but I'm getting the feeling it might have been misworded >.>

If it has been misworded, I'd appreciate a rewording so it makes more sense.

The fact that you gave a reason isn't the problem; the problem is that your reason directly contradicts what you yourself said in the same post. You wanted to get some more wagons going. Elenna's vote on Bunny of Faith did that, and yet you think she was suspicious for doing that.

And the Bunny thing makes even less sense: surely Aventine would have been more likely to call out Bunny on the self-preservation vote if they were allied with Elenna?

Yeah, saying "must" is a stretch, but it does seem an odd conclusion to jump to based on very little evidence.

[Valmark]

If it has been misworded, I'd appreciate a rewording so it makes more sense.

The fact that you gave a reason isn't the problem; the problem is that your reason directly contradicts what you yourself said in the same post. You wanted to get some more wagons going. Elenna's vote on Bunny of Faith did that, and yet you think she was suspicious for doing that.

And the Bunny thing makes even less sense: surely Aventine would have been more likely to call out Bunny on the self-preservation vote if they were allied with Elenna?

Yeah, saying "must" is a stretch, but it does seem an odd conclusion to jump to based on very little evidence.

Yeah, upon re-reading I have no idea how that was misworded. Which doesn't mean it's not confusing, it just means I don't see it.

I didn't say she was suspicious for getting a wagon going- I said she is for getting a wagon going 'by mistake'. Which upon re-reading adds to other mistakes others pointed out plus the weird thing about asking AV to be assigned a random name.

If we say that they're allied then Aventine isn't interested in hunting mafia or cult- imo she went for the one easier to 'attack', me, without bothering of pointing out something she usually does. To which I'd also add something I had forgotten, that gac3 had pointed out, her mentioning suspicions on Logan for something he didn't do.

I'll repeat, if she had just, I don't know, pointed out Bunny's vote like she did with Logan's words and still voted me, sure no problem, it makes sense (besides the critique on Logan being unfounded) but that is not what happened.

In all honesty, they've racked up enough suspicion separated that lynching them both either way is something I'd agree with- but this could very easily change on Day 2, depending on how Ele flips and on how the Night goes. I still believe that Ave's plan is more liable to help town then mafia- it is also likely to help the cult I guess though.

[Snowblaze]

Yeah, I’m really confused about Elenna. Honestly quite glad we’re lynching her just so I don’t have to try and get a read on her!

On Logan, I can see where Aventine is coming from there. Even if they weren’t talking about analysis specifically, the point is still there that “Hey, let’s get back on track, let’s talk about today’s lynch” without actually making any effort to do that is an easy way for a wolf to look towny.

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And on Bunny, that would have been the easier vote on Elenna for a hypothetical scum!Aventine to attack, wouldn’t it?

[Elenna]

Given how sharply Aventine turned against me upon trying to start a counter-wagon and not saying anything about Bunny's self-defence vote (she usually says that it's suspicious to vote in self-defence early in the day) I reckon Aventine and Elenna might be buddies.

Aventine is very much a team-player after all.

FWIW I read this as "Aventine didn't object to Bunny's vote, and instead voted for someone else. This means Aventine is working with the person Bunny voted for." Does that rewording help explain where the confusion was? Especially because you mentioned Aventine being a team player, which didn't fit with their not commenting on a vote against their team-mate (in your theory).

I kinda see what you mean now that you've rephrased it, but I'm still confused by the "team-player" part.

Yeah, upon re-reading I have no idea how that was misworded. Which doesn't mean it's not confusing, it just means I don't see it.

I didn't say she was suspicious for getting a wagon going- I said she is for getting a wagon going 'by mistake'. Which upon re-reading adds to other mistakes others pointed out plus the weird thing about asking AV to be assigned a random name.

If we say that they're allied then Aventine isn't interested in hunting mafia or cult- imo she went for the one easier to 'attack', me, without bothering of pointing out something she usually does. To which I'd also add something I had forgotten, that gac3 had pointed out, her mentioning suspicions on Logan for something he didn't do.

I'll repeat, if she had just, I don't know, pointed out Bunny's vote like she did with Logan's words and still voted me, sure no problem, it makes sense (besides the critique on Logan being unfounded) but that is not what happened.

In all honesty, they've racked up enough suspicion separated that lynching them both either way is something I'd agree with- but this could very easily change on Day 2, depending on how Ele flips and on how the Night goes. I still believe that Ave's plan is more liable to help town then mafia- it is also likely to help the cult I guess though.

The "asking to be assigned a random name" was my (probably failed) attempt at convincing wolves that I wasn't actually a vanillager, since people thought that claim was anti-town (and, upon thinking about it more, I do agree). I just forgot AV linked the random name generator in the initial post.
That being said, I'd probably be lynching me, too, at this point

[Apogee1]

Yeah, I’m really confused about Elenna. Honestly quite glad we’re lynching her just so I don’t have to try and get a read on her!

I'm not a big fan of this line, but it's not really wrong I suppose? This has actually been a reasonably lively d1 so that's nice to see

I don't think Valmark looks that bad, or at least that his post up the page a bit seems to be a reasonable explaination of what his process was. I like Aventine's plan and approach overall, and I think the majority of the time it comes from a town/solvey mindset, but I can't fully get it out of my head that it's a (probably cult but maybe wolves) gambit to de facto ensure not getting targeted night one. The lashing out at any critique is a bit ?!?, but yeah like if you are going to do that you need to get Jennychecked for sure.

[AvatarVecna]

End Of Day One

The gathering cats spent the first bit of the evening feeling each other out - many of them had never met before, and new faces were always exciting. Several attempted to make friends, and some perhaps even succeeded, but one queen stood apart from the rest. She was more experienced than many of these kittens, knew that a friendly face could be an easy excuse to get in close and rip your throat out. With the Hidden Paw on the loose, and no doubt many more criminals besides lurking in the shadows of their little alley, it'd be all too easy to get swept up in some nasty business if you just played nice with every wandering tom that caught your attention.

The others, naturally, shunned her for being a giant stick in the mud and raining on their friendship parade. Soon enough she disappeared, and none noticed, for she had made no friends that would miss her. Such is the sad tale of Erelan.

Elenna was killed. She was a Vanillager.

Spoiler: Elenna Role PM

Show

Vanillager
"All cats are jellicle cats, you see."

You have no special power. If you would be scried, and the scry would learn your role name, they are told you are Erelan.

Night One Ends In ~48 hours

[Valmark]

...I really didn't expect this.

[Book Wombat]

...I really didn't expect this.

Who would have? Excluding the mafia of course.

[gac3]

I'm not expecting an answer but anybody feel confident they can make it to the end of the game? I'm not quite sure who to target yet. Feel free to message in our QT if you have ideas.

I also did not expect that result.

[Logan1996]

Remember folks, the night is only 24 hours.

[AvatarVecna]

Remember folks, the night is only 24 hours.

Night One Ends In ~48 hours

wordswords

[Logan1996]

wordswords

Hmmm... Maybe I should have looked there. I specifically went to the OP to check. My bad.

1) The game will start on a Day Phase. Day phases will be 48 hours long, Night phases will be 24 hours long.

[AvatarVecna]

Hmmm... Maybe I should have looked there. I specifically went to the OP to check. My bad.

They will be in future nights, but the first two phases are extra-long since people to tend to...take their time at the start of games, IME.

[JeenLeen]

Snowblaze was really the only person to comment on my plan for us using the Jellicle Choice to get the wolves to rat each other out or to destroy the cult D2.
I get the criticisms, although folk acting out of selfless sense of loyalty instead of wanting to win is... well, reasonable, but frustrating. Obviously the wolves probably are being loyal to each other, or one would have already taken us up on it. (I do agree that we should be wary about trusting a wolf who takes the offer out of desperation.)

If anyone has a sense of how we could use the Choice offensively/espionage-y, feel free to reach out to me via PM or QT so we can bounce ideas off each other. Or maybe even publicly: the goal is to sincerely reward someone who betrays their evil faction such that the faction is effectively eliminated, so not 100% sure if keeping that private is a good thing, especially with a cult around that can change priorities... but I understand folk feeling better talking privately, and I'd rather talk privately than not at all.

If you want to wait until Day breaks to send PMs, though... well, makes sense with Griz lurking about.

===

I'm leaning towards Aventine's plan. I've thought about it, and don't see any flaws or exploits for the wolves.
And I see we now know that Elenna had no ulterior motives. (I still think her augmentation to Aventine's plan hurts Town more than it helps, though.)

[Valmark]

I feel like the best uses for the Jellicle Choice are to either get a cultist to betray their chief (or the Head Cultist to show themselves) or get a mafia to out the others/another mafia.

Thing is, as Cult or Mafia I would NEVER trust Town to deliver.

[Snowblaze]

...I really didn't expect this.

Didn’t you? *suspicious glance*

Thing is, as Cult or Mafia I would NEVER trust Town to deliver.

Agreed. I actually feel like it could be better used if we have confirmed town, so we can build a network, then make said confirmed town the Choice after they’ve revealed what information should be public but before they’re inevitably converted to the cult. (And presumably Grizabella can’t target effectively dead players, either...)

[gac3]

I don't like the logic of "get rid of confirmed town before the cult can get them". But it's not my team that seems like it's getting messed with.

Its worth noting, if I were a wolf, I would suggest Grizzle or whatever target our kill victim.

[JeenLeen]

AV, since the night is ending in approximately 48 hours after it started: how approximate is that approximate?

In a couple games, I've enjoyed posting some stuff last-minute before Night ended. I don't think I have anything big to post this Night, but I might be interested in the future. Is the cutoff strict enough that such is viable, or not really?

If "not really", that's completely cool. I plan on having a +/- 30 minutes when I run a game on when Day/Night will end, mainly because real life stuff will interfere, so I don't bear any ill if you decide to have leeway on when you end a phase.

[AvatarVecna]

I'll be trying to keep it strict, but I've not got a great history of sticking to that.

[AvatarVecna]

Updating finally. Sorry, past several hours have been kinda a rollercoaster IRL.

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End Of Night One

And so the night continued on, cats mingling and gossiping and sharing tales of their travels. One cat in particular who'd been flitting from one group to another greeting everybody went off into a side-alley to get in on some particularly salacious stories, and...well, let's just say that curiosity killed the cat.

Snowblaze was killed. She was a Vanillager.

Spoiler: Snowblaze Role PM

Show

Snowblaze/Vanillager
"All cats are jellicle cats, you see."

You have no special power. If you would be scried, and the scry would learn your role name, they are told you are Silhouette.

Day Two Will End In ~48 Hours

(hopefully for real this time >.>)

[Aventine]

I still strongly dislike that quick switch to Elenna, but for now I'm poking Book Wombat, who had one post all day then showed up less than an hour after end-of-day. And with a "wow, I had no idea that was going to end up as a mislynch" post to top it off.

[Valmark]

Well, Mafia is surely in game. Wonder if the Cult is.

I'd vote Aventine for the reasons previously stated (the ones that make her lynchable on her own, not the Elenna thing) but there have been no new developments on that plus there's to see if her plan had an outcome of some kind. And I got 48 hours to vote her anyway.
Though, after a bit of thought she could have avoided mentioning BoF because the two of them are culprits together.

In any case I'll first vote JoyWonderLove- Got any new feelings now that it's Day 2? Enough to actually vote, maybe?

[CaoimhinTheCape]

I'll put a second vote on Book Wombat to start. Though the way I read Book Wombat's post was more that it implied Valmark was town for having that reaction.

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Just a reminder:

5) There will be no auto-lynch rules in this game.

It hasn't come up yet but auto-lynches sound like they won't be a thing, so we need to keep an eye on that ourselves (and vote them if necessary).

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Current vote count:

Book Wombat 2 (Aventine, CaoimhinTheCape)
JoyWonderLove 1 (Valmark)

No posts: 9 (gac3, JoyWonderLove, Unavenger, flat_footed, Bunny of Faith, JeenLeen, Logan1996, Apogee1, Book Wombat)

[JoyWonderLove]

Well, Mafia is surely in game. Wonder if the Cult is.

I'd vote Aventine for the reasons previously stated (the ones that make her lynchable on her own, not the Elenna thing) but there have been no new developments on that plus there's to see if her plan had an outcome of some kind. And I got 48 hours to vote her anyway.
Though, after a bit of thought she could have avoided mentioning BoF because the two of them are culprits together.

In any case I'll first vote JoyWonderLove- Got any new feelings now that it's Day 2? Enough to actually vote, maybe?

Going to need a little bit to reply to people and pull my thoughts/feelings/replies together. I distrust Apopgee, partially as a holdover of last game, partially because his reasoning was shown to be stronger last game. The drop in it makes me suspicious, but again, that could easily be feelings from the last game. It's not strong enough to move on by any stretch beyond an OMGUS impulse, and even that's practically nonexistant. We'll see.

And I normally vote day 2 - you know that, Valmark. I just strongly feel voting Day 1 is practically anti-Town (and just look at the results that keep popping up again. And again. And again). Aventine seems okay to me...for now. Speaking from a Day 1 perspective. But I haven't exactly been following too closely and should read Aventine's ideas before I really comment.

Anyway, I'm in contact with someone that I want to believe is Town as well, but we'll see. Standby folks.

[Book Wombat]

I'm going to vote for Valmark as their comments seem suspicious to me.

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...I really didn't expect this.

Well, Mafia is surely in game. Wonder if the Cult is.

The first one is just generally suspicious and the second feels like they are Cult.
It could of course just be misdirection.

[JeenLeen]

Okay. I think I figured out a why to utilize the Jellicle Choice. I made this QuickTopic: https://quicktopic.com/53/H/XshBNhtdhsD8

Anyone who wants to can post there as their role, not identifying who they are (e.g., post as Old Deutero, not as your user name on the forum).

Old Deuteronomy: if you would use the Jellicle Choice to reward a cultist or wolf who betrays their faction, let us know. Maybe that will set the fears that Town won't deliver at ease.

I think we should take other stuff folk could post there with a grain of salt. If a cult/wolf rats someone out without giving their own name as well, it's likely an attempt to get us to lynch a Townie. If someone claims to be a seer/tracker and know who killed who... well, that's more likely true, but it's also possibly a wolf/cult spreading misinformation, again, to get us to lynch a Townie.

Unless the baner got lucky or the Cult unlucky, we should have 2 Cultists now. So let's hope one is willing to betray the other to Win so we can eliminate that threat. Should also help the networking with Jenny & Aventine to be a safe channel of communication.

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As for voting:
I found JoyWonderLove's posts D1 to be a great opening post for the Cult leader. A bit risky, but a solid gambit. On the other hand, JWL is usually sincere and posting that as a Townie sounds like something they'd do. So although I don't agree with their posts so far, I would guess JWL is Town.

Anyway, I'm in contact with someone that I want to believe is Town as well, but we'll see. Standby folks.

Not sure what I think of saying this publicly. Seems suspicious, in that it gives reason for Cult or Griz to target you; the only reason to say it (that I can think of) is to discourage votes on you, not a great motivation. So JoyWonderLove to start.

D1, there was a lot of talk between Aventine, Valmark, and Snowblaze about potential scumbuddies between those three and Bunny of Faith/Elenna. As we now know Elenna and Snowblaze are Town, I put more weight on Snowblaze's thoughts on likely town/wolf status.
So I'd like to hear more from Aventine, Valmark, and Bunny of Faith about their opinions on Valmark and Bunny of Faith. (Of course, others are welcome to give their analysis, but those seem the most vested from D1 discussions.)

I have a Town read on Aventine and Cao. Valmark's comments could be sincere Town mixed with being misunderstood/some misphrasing of things. Not much read on others.

[Unavenger]

Old Deuteronomy: if you would use the Jellicle Choice to reward a cultist or wolf who betrays their faction, let us know. Maybe that will set the fears that Town won't deliver at ease.

Hello there. It'll probably be the only thing I actually really do this game, but if a wolf or cultist tells me all their other faction members, I will Choose them. Enjoy.

[Apogee1]

Hello there. It'll probably be the only thing I actually really do this game, but if a wolf or cultist tells me all their other faction members, I will Choose them. Enjoy.

Well this is interesting. I'll throw in that while I of course don't control the target, if a cult or maf member gives up the team outside of a situation where they might feel extra compelled to anyways as a self prez or as a distraction (like if they are about to be voted off), I'll fully back them getting the reward and not just trying to get them to out and then go yoink nothing for you.

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I like the anonymous thread idea Jeen implemented, and though I'll leave it up to the individual PRs to decide if they think it makes sense, posting anonymously information you want to share but don't want tied back to you could be useful.

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Going to need a little bit to reply to people and pull my thoughts/feelings/replies together. I distrust Apopgee, partially as a holdover of last game, partially because his reasoning was shown to be stronger last game. The drop in it makes me suspicious, but again, that could easily be feelings from the last game. It's not strong enough to move on by any stretch beyond an OMGUS impulse, and even that's practically nonexistant. We'll see.

Hey, last game I was right on you being a wolf!

And yeah, haven't had quite as much time to devote to this game with a few other things going on, but I'm still trying to brainstorm a few plans to try wrt the quicktopic issues and putting together a towncore.

With regards to actual thread things, Valmark looks a little eh from the Elenna/Aventine associative push yesterday in retrospect, but I'm not here to lamblast people for being wrong. Let's start with Logan1996 -- Snowblaze expressed concerns to me about him potentially acting different than normal, and I was kind of eh on that yesterday, but think it's a good avenue to explore today.