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    d6 Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Larian just showed the second live gameplay presentation for their upcoming Baldur's Gate 3. We get to see some changes from what was seen previously (initiative, dialogue) and some more features, characters and locations, including an excursion into the Underdark.




    This is looking very nice, the closest thing we ever had to D&D on a videogame.

    I like that they play it close to the chest storywise, so unlike some people I will wait to play the game and see how the story unfolds before deciding whether to be be disappointed or not in that sense.

    Last edited by Clertar; 2020-10-05 at 01:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    I've only watched a little of it so far, but the "whoops, a goblin shot me and now I'm dying" feel of low-level D&D is certainly in place. It's interesting that Inspiration is used to reroll skill checks . It's honestly something the tabletop game should do. But I wonder if there'll be anything preventing the player from just quick-saving and quick-loading until they make the roll.
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-06-19 at 01:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Good to see they've changed that godawful past-tense narration and the party-based initiative. They're steps in the right direction, though I remain bitter the game is called this way when it has nothing to do with the previous games in the series. Especially after I found out what Wizards considers the canon end to the Bhaalspawn.

    I'm not sure I like that "True Soul" business, but it's too early to tell for sure. What's up with those goblins though? Their faces looked too humanoid, and their hands were too big (same as the svirfneblin's hands). Or was it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    This is looking very nice, the closest thing we ever had to D&D on a videogame.
    I assume you're discounting the Infinity Engine games because they're not turn-based (I disagree but whatever). If that's accurate, you're either only twenty or thirty years too late.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Actually I’m a bit sad the opposed team initiatives are gone. The turn based squad games I’ve enjoyed most have all had that, and partially I think that is the fun of being able to lay out your full parties plan, or watch in horror as you realize what the enemy is setting up. Going back to the initiative system designed for multiple different players feels a step back in a one player game.

    Regardless, that’s a quibble still looks interesting enough to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Actually I’m a bit sad the opposed team initiatives are gone. The turn based squad games I’ve enjoyed most have all had that, and partially I think that is the fun of being able to lay out your full parties plan, or watch in horror as you realize what the enemy is setting up. Going back to the initiative system designed for multiple different players feels a step back in a one player game.

    Regardless, that’s a quibble still looks interesting enough to play.
    Personally i think individual initiatives is better. It makes it a real choice to invest in it over something else, whereas with team based you just boost the rogue or whoever determines it, and then ignore it on everybody else, and theres no meaning or choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It's interesting that Inspiration is used to reroll skill checks . It's honestly something the tabletop game should do. But I wonder if there'll be anything preventing the player from just quick-saving and quick-loading until they make the roll.
    The tabletop games do this actually, in 5e which this is based on. Theres a section in the back of the PHB about DM inspiration that basically just lets you apply advantage to a single roll (ie you roll again and take the better result)
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-06-19 at 12:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Team-based initiative rewards alpha-striking way too much. In retrospect it might have been one of the reasons D:OS2 was such a rocket tag-fest - either you lay waste to the enemy on your first turn, or they do it to you. Individual initiative works much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The tabletop games do this actually, in 5e which this is based on. Theres a section in the back of the PHB about DM inspiration that basically just lets you apply advantage to a single roll (ie you roll again and take the better result)
    Which isn't really the same thing as re-rolling a failed check.
    Last edited by Morty; 2020-06-19 at 12:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I've only watched a little of it so far, but the "whoops, a goblin shot me and now I'm dying" feel of low-level D&D is certainly in place. It's interesting that Inspiration is used to reroll skill checks . It's honestly something the tabletop game should do. But I wonder if there'll be anything preventing the player from just quick-saving and quick-loading until they make the roll.
    The main tactic Swen noted in their first demonstration at PAX that they're doing to discourage save scumming is trying to make both success and failure states interesting and able to be played off of. There's probably going to be some decisions where the player feels like they want to savescum to avoid a failure, but the intention seems to be that if you save scum, you're going to end up missing content, because failing a check can lead to extra options that succeeding all the time at everything wouldn't have given you. It's still up in the air as to whether they'll succeed or not, but to me it sounds like a good plan.

    They seemed to demonstrate this philosophy with the solo encounter in the goblin camp. Swen blew both his Intimidation attempt and a following Wisdom check, but still managed to get a good result by knocking the Goblin leader under half-health in the ensuing fight.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post


    Which isn't really the same thing as re-rolling a failed check.
    Given that you can apply it after you fail a check, yes, its actually exactly the same.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Spoiler: Inspiration
    Show


    You can expend inspiration to gain advantage when you make the roll. If the rules allowed you to do it after the roll, they would say so clearly and specifically. There are other abilities in the game (eg, the Lucky feat, Bardic Inspiration) that may be used after your roll, and the ability to use them after a roll is always called out specifically.
    Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2020-06-19 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashen Lilies View Post
    Spoiler: Inspiration
    Show


    You can expend inspiration to gain advantage when you make the roll. If the rules allowed you to do it after the roll, they would say so clearly and specifically. There are other abilities in the game (eg, the Lucky feat, Bardic Inspiration) that may be used after your roll, and the ability to use them after a roll is always called out specifically.
    Counterpoint: There are many abilities that allow you to add a die or otherwise affect the outcome of a roll that specifically call out that you have to do so before you know the result of the check. That language is absent with DM inspirations.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Inspiration gives you advantage, which has a clear and specific definition - it lets you roll twice and pick the better result. There's really not a lot of ambiguity about it.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    It does actually, because it specifically says that using your Inspiration when you roll gives you Advantage on that roll. The definition of Advantage in the rules is that you roll two dice, and then pick the higher roll. The rules for Advantage do not tell you to roll a dice, and if you think it's too low, roll another dice or reroll the first dice.

    Quite aside from the wording of the rules, there's a clear gameplay difference. Giving yourself two chances to succeed, before you know whether or not you need the second chance is a distinct gameplay decision from giving yourself a second chance to succeed after you know you've already failed once.
    Last edited by Ashen Lilies; 2020-06-19 at 01:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    I assume you're discounting the Infinity Engine games because they're not turn-based (I disagree but whatever). If that's accurate, you're either only twenty or thirty years too late.
    I spent my teens playing the BG and IDW series :)

    Do you think those are closer to a non videogame D&D experience than what we see in the BG3 gameplay videos? That would surprise me quite a bit.

    In pen and paper D&D, non-combat experiences and interaction with the environment are always very relevant, but both that and the use of non-combat skills were effectively entirely missing from the Infinity Egine generation of games.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2020-06-19 at 03:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    I am excited for this as a cool DnD based RPG but as a follow up to Baldur's Gate I have less hope. That story is over. I know why they have to have the name brand but still I wish it could just be a new thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    I spent my teens playing the BG and IDW series :)

    Do you think those are closer to a non videogame D&D experience than what we see in the BG3 gameplay videos? That would surprise me quite a bit.

    In pen and paper D&D, non-combat experiences and interaction with the environment are always very relevant, but both that and the use of non-combat skills were effectively entirely missing from the Infinity Egine generation of games.
    Temple of Elemental Evil is quite literally designed to be a "perfect" simulation of 3.5e rules in a Dungeons & Dragons module. It goes so far in that sense that it went too far under the radar and wasn't much of a success.

    Not sure about non-combat experiences and interaction with the environment since those are also blanket terms that could mean dialogue, examining chests, looking for traps and whatnot.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    I'm not sure what to think about this. One the one hand, I love the idea of a D&D video game, especially one with turn-based combat. On the other hand, I've never played a D&D video game that I've actually liked, and this one is based on 5th edition, which I've not played. Time will tell, I suppose.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    I spent my teens playing the BG and IDW series :)

    Do you think those are closer to a non videogame D&D experience than what we see in the BG3 gameplay videos? That would surprise me quite a bit.

    In pen and paper D&D, non-combat experiences and interaction with the environment are always very relevant, but both that and the use of non-combat skills were effectively entirely missing from the Infinity Egine generation of games.
    You are the one who said "closest we ever had". If you didn't mean it being turn-based, I fail to see what it has that's not been done before. Planescape: Torment had dialogue options available based on your ability scores. No skills, granted, but I don't really see it as a problem. Neverwinter Nights had the full complement of skills and non-combat applications for them. More recently, Pathfinder: Kingmaker has it all already.

    RPGs live and die by the writing, and what I've seen so far of Larian's writing has failed to impress me. I reserve my final judgment, but for that reason only I would consider it a worse DnD experience.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    RPGs live and die by the writing, and what I've seen so far of Larian's writing has failed to impress me. I reserve my final judgment, but for that reason only I would consider it a worse DnD experience.
    This, so much of this. Gameplay systems are important and all, but good writing is important for a roleplaying experience. I can excuse a game if its core gameplay is repetitive and slightly tedious, but if the writing does not reward the effort put into the game, the whole experience is extremely soured to me.

    Granted I had a LOT of fun with Divinity: OS 2 despite its retreading of old tropes (chosen one, divine essence stuff, shipwrecked quasi amnesiac). Part of that might be because my character was none of the "origin" characters with their own story because I did not want to replace anyone with my character reducing my options making the main character blander than they needed to be.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Personally im in the opposite camp. A great story is nice to have, but if the gameplay is compelling i can slog through even the most thinly written crap to get to the end. Meanwhile if the gameplay is painful, my need to know the ending will almost never be enough to actually get me to finish the thing.

    D&D is a game, and the act of playing the game (ideally with friends) is the most important aspect to me. I can go read a book or watch a movie if i want just a story.

    ETA: Oh, hey. The narrator is Malady. Thats neat, i liked her voice actress.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-06-20 at 07:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    I don't exactly have a lot of faith in Larian's writing either, but the ability to talk to the goblins is a step up compared to the usual portrayal of conveniently evil XP fodder, so I'll give them credit for that. As well as there seemingly being a lot of freedom in approaching the situation. Of course, I'm well aware that it might look pretty in promotional material without panning out like this in the final game.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I don't exactly have a lot of faith in Larian's writing either, but the ability to talk to the goblins is a step up compared to the usual portrayal of conveniently evil XP fodder, so I'll give them credit for that. As well as there seemingly being a lot of freedom in approaching the situation. Of course, I'm well aware that it might look pretty in promotional material without panning out like this in the final game.
    Larian's writing can be a bit cliched. But one thing I've definitely seen them working and improving on is pure breadth of options in allowing the players to find solutions to situations. Honestly, I can't think of an RPG that matched them in that regard in DOS2.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    We know very little about how the plot of the game will connect with the Bhaalspawn saga, but Larian hinted at a definite connection at the Reddit Q&A recently:

    Will there be any connection between the story of Baldurs gate 1/2/tob and Baldurs gate 3?
    Swen: We really don’t want to spoil anything but we wouldn’t call it Baldur’s Gate 3 if there wouldn’t be a link. Let me just say that we touch upon the story of BG 1 & 2 in meaningful ways, there are returning characters and what happened in BG 1/2/tob leads to what happens into BG3. You won’t necessarily see that at the start of the adventure but you will quickly understand once you get further into the game.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2020-06-20 at 08:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    We know very little about how the plot of the game will connect with the Bhaalspawn saga, but Larian hinted at a definite connection at the Reddit Q&A recently:
    I hope they make it easy to understand for we who haven't played the earlier games.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    We know very little about how the plot of the game will connect with the Bhaalspawn saga, but Larian hinted at a definite connection at the Reddit Q&A recently:
    Of course he'd say that. He'd be crucified if he admitted they did it for the free marketing. But as far as I'm concerned, the Bhaalspawn saga ended conclusively with Throne of Bhaal. Anything attempting to continue the same story is nothing but a fanfic.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    I certainly hope it has as little to do with the original games' story as possible. That story is over. I acknowledge the need to use the Baldur's Gate name as a marketing ploy, even if I don't approve. But it should be its own game, with its own story.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    For better or worse, the Bhaalspawn had a fairly significant impact on the Baldur's Gate region. While i hope they dont try to directly continue the "family of murder siblings try to murder each other" theme directly, i think there is plenty of room to examine the other ways Gorion's Ward and his companions affected the place, and the fallout from that.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    I still maintain that the best way to approach this game will probably be to mentally extricate it from most (if not all) aspects of the earlier BG games, be it plot continuity, style, or level of writing.
    Last edited by Cespenar; 2020-06-21 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Given that the franchise logo is Bhaal's holy symbol, there was bound to be a connection of some kind. I too hope I won't need a lot of legacy lore to understand what's going on, but I doubt that'll be the case.

    As for Larian's writing, I enjoyed DOS2 so I trust them.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Temple of Elemental Evil is quite literally designed to be a "perfect" simulation of 3.5e rules in a Dungeons & Dragons module. It goes so far in that sense that it went too far under the radar and wasn't much of a success.
    I think you're greatly understating how much of its failure came from things unrelated to how close its design was to D&D, such as "it was a buggy mess that needed to be fixed by fan-patches" and "the writing was godawful."

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think you're greatly understating how much of its failure came from things unrelated to how close its design was to D&D, such as "it was a buggy mess that needed to be fixed by fan-patches" and "the writing was godawful."
    What do you mean, unrelated? The first one is essential for an authentic D&D experience, and the second one is so common you might as well call it a core feature.
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