Baldur's Gate III (2)

[Keltest]

I'm not "afflicted" with anything and I'm basing my judgment on actual play experience. Battlemasters have some barebones tactical depth to them, but I'd still rather play a caster, since their abilities actually get better with levels, for one thing.

Speaking as somebody actively DMing a rather caster-heavy 5e campaign right now, the tactical depth of most casters is "can i use my favorite spell? Y/N" While the one real martial in the party is actively worrying about locking down the mobile enemies, beating up the ones with high HP, making sure he can actually get everywhere he needs to go, and avoiding the enemy's attempts to lock HIM down or otherwise separate him from the squishy casters he's trying to protect. He does, by far, the most planning and thinking in any given combat.

[verbatim]

You've described almost all of 5e that isn't spells in all honesty though 5e could do with some more combat options presented as standard.

Lurking here mainly because I'm not buying EA until I get a computer that can actually run it (maybe around March), but it sounds a bit more interesting than I thought at first reveal. Still don't think it should be called BG3, but I'm willing to give Mask of the Tadpole a chance.

Also hoping they don't go too high in the levels. If properly paced ten is plenty for a full RPG, although if sticking to 5e as close as possible I can see going to 15 because you might want players to get to 3rd level quickly to give characters a tad more hp.

EA caps at 4 and I heard somewhere that the full game will cap at 10 (can't confirm that one though).

[Anonymouswizard]

Speaking as somebody actively DMing a rather caster-heavy 5e campaign right now, the tactical depth of most casters is "can i use my favorite spell? Y/N" While the one real martial in the party is actively worrying about locking down the mobile enemies, beating up the ones with high HP, making sure he can actually get everywhere he needs to go, and avoiding the enemy's attempts to lock HIM down or otherwise separate him from the squishy casters he's trying to protect. He does, by far, the most planning and thinking in any given combat.

And I've played in games where every martial option up to and including 'I attack it' was rendered useless via some means, but not magic.

But that's besides the point. It's not what players do at the table, but what tools the classes get access to. And casters get a lot more tools than martials, although arguably weaker ones, even if their players use then less (which varies from table to table).

Do martials get enough tools? I personally don't think so, although you might disagree.

EA caps at 4 and I heard somewhere that the full game will cap at 10 (can't confirm that one though).

Yeah, I just remember tl something earlier on the thread about them maybe making the cap higher than 10 which I'm a bit skeptical of. There's an at to leveling speed, but I think 5e levels are big enough that you might be able to get away with one every four hours or so.

[Keltest]

And I've played in games where every martial option up to and including 'I attack it' was rendered useless via some means, but not magic.

But that's besides the point. It's not what players do at the table, but what tools the classes get access to. And casters get a lot more tools than martials, although arguably weaker ones, even if their players use then less (which varies from table to table).

Do martials get enough tools? I personally don't think so, although you might disagree.

And just last session i had an encounter where the spellcasters could do almost literally nothing while the martial was carrying the entire party. Whats your point?

[Dienekes]

And just last session i had an encounter where the spellcasters could do almost literally nothing while the martial was carrying the entire party. Whats your point?

We can each of us bring in unverifiable anecdotal stories to emphasize whatever point we wish to make. All these stories are meaningless in the context of balance discussion. I’m sure there’s someone in the world who completely kicked ass in a 3.5 game running as a Commoner.

What we must fall back on is the common rule set that binds us together and analyzing those rules through mathematics.

Or in other words your stories say more about your players than they do about the classes.

[Winthur]

We can each of us bring in unverifiable anecdotal stories to emphasize whatever point we wish to make.

It's kinda like how Monk is either the best or the worst class in any D&D game or derivations since BG2, and although we all know it's the worst, the wow factor of a campaign where a Monk gets to delete a dragon with his bare fist while DM feeds him massive amounts of equipment to help him keep up hides that fact very neatly.

[Anonymouswizard]

And just last session i had an encounter where the spellcasters could do almost literally nothing while the martial was carrying the entire party. Whats your point?

As has been said, we can all probably bring up anecdotal evidence to support whichever point we want to make. Also design encounters to mess with class balance however we want, but the effectiveness of a tool at point X in time doesn't change the presence of that tool.

That is, power is subjective, potential options isn't. A wizard has more buttons to push than a Fighter, and that at least means that, all things being equal, the wizard has more potential ways to work around counters to their abilities. This isn't inherently a problem, but it can get to problems where one class has twenty things it can potentially do, while the other is regulated to two major options (like Attack and Shove).

Now you can work around that, environment does a lot, and casters who are played as one trick ponies become as easy to shut down as a one trick pony Fighter. But one variety comes with inherently more breadth in 5e than the other.

[Kish]

I'm not "afflicted" with anything and I'm basing my judgment on actual play experience.

Yeah, I'm with Morty here. The power ceiling has been lowered for all classes; full casters are still vastly more powerful than every other class.

Will that be the case in BG3? Probably not; it's never been the case in a computer game I've played. But tabletop 5ed? It shows serious rose-colored glasses (5-itis, if you will) to assert that it's not.

I wouldn't be surprised if very few players actually took advantage of that, but then, in the actual 3.5ed games I've played, Conjuration is perhaps the most popular choice for a barred school.

[Driderman]

Yeah, I just remember tl something earlier on the thread about them maybe making the cap higher than 10 which I'm a bit skeptical of. There's an at to leveling speed, but I think 5e levels are big enough that you might be able to get away with one every four hours or so.

Sure, but that doesn't really sit too well with "In an interview with IGN discussing the company's approach to platform exclusivity, Larian Studios revealed it plans to have over 100 hours of content for Baldur's Gate 3" and honestly, at least at the lower levels the difference between most levels is rather negligible. If we're taking 5-10 play hours between levels and say half those levels don't really feel like much of a differency anyway, that's a pretty boring, glacial level progression

[Zombimode]

Is it, really?

Baldurs Gate 1 caps at level 9-11 (if memory serves right), depending on class.

Baldurs Gate 2 caps at about level 20.

Many Ultima games cap at level 8.

I could go on.


On the other hand Oblivion has a much higher level cap and leveling may happen faster, but almost nothing changes.


The conclusion is that level range and play time alone don't determine the feel of the gameplay.

[Dienekes]

I will admit I tend to prefer fewer levels with more drastic change per level.

That said, there are definitely levels in 5e which don’t really feel as drastic as I would like. Some of them I’m sure Larian will change. Others, I doubt. Hell, one of the foundational aspects of the game is having whole levels dedicated to ASIs and while feats can be awesome, there is quite a few times where the best build is actually just increasing an ability by +2, which is certainly a power boost. But isn’t exactly interesting to use.

[verbatim]

To circle back to an earlier conversation about martials vs casters in tabletop 5e, the usefulness of shove as a bonus action and the way it sends people flying in BGIII is going to be a significant buff to strength-based martials imo. During part of the beta I got shoved and fell 3 floors from the rafters into a sub-basement. That's an extreme example but throughout I can point to examples where shoving an enemy and sending them down a floor does 2 digits of damage and forces them to burn multiple turns running back up to where you are.

[Babale]

To circle back to an earlier conversation about martials vs casters in tabletop 5e, the usefulness of shove as a bonus action and the way it sends people flying in BGIII is going to be a significant buff to strength-based martials imo. During part of the beta I got shoved and fell 3 floors from the rafters into a sub-basement. That's an extreme example but throughout I can point to examples where shoving an enemy and sending them down a floor does 2 digits of damage and forces them to burn multiple turns running back up to where you are.

Otoh the power of Shove makes Misty Step even more attractive.

Visual demonstration of shove vs Misty Step:

Spoiler

Show

[Dienekes]

To circle back to an earlier conversation about martials vs casters in tabletop 5e, the usefulness of shove as a bonus action and the way it sends people flying in BGIII is going to be a significant buff to strength-based martials imo. During part of the beta I got shoved and fell 3 floors from the rafters into a sub-basement. That's an extreme example but throughout I can point to examples where shoving an enemy and sending them down a floor does 2 digits of damage and forces them to burn multiple turns running back up to where you are.

That 5e is at least slightly unbalanced in favor of mages I think is easy to see at least the developers at Larian’s opinion about it since as far as I can tell the additions to the systems they're making all favor the martials in general. If not every subclass in particular.

Of course as Babale points out the answer to these boost still seems to be easiest with more spells. But that’s the nature of the beast.

In theory this game can approach close balance as it is a curated experience by nature. It should be possible with enough time, consideration, and sculpting of encounters that every class performs equally well in an equivalent number of encounters. I have never seen a game ever pull this off, because the cost to do it in terms of time and money are huge. But I will say it’s possible.

[Narkis]

I think is easy to see at least the developers at Larian’s opinion about it since as far as I can tell the additions to the systems they're making all favor the martials in general. If not every subclass in particular.

I haven't played the early access. What exactly has Larian changed that favors the martials?

[Babale]

With the matter of classes -- I hope our companions have their chosen class, and can perhaps unlock some multiclass options through a quest (anyone remember that dearf fighter who wants to become a monk in Neverwinter Nights 2? I think that sort of idea is awesome and hope to see something similar here, rather than fully open "make your companions however you'd like" style.

I would also like to see a mode where you create all 4 characters custom; I know this eliminates some plot options but should still be fun for reruns. Like when I played through Storm of Zehir with the Order of the Stick!

I haven't played the early access. What exactly has Larian changed that favors the martials?

Shove and dip as bonus actions that push an enemy away (even off cliffs) or add 1d6 energy damage to a weapon essentially for free; advantage on attacks with light weapons made from behind the enemy; advantage for elevation, which is relatively easy for mundane characters to get. And weapons now have 1/rest special abilities -- "Rush" on a spear, "Cleave" on a greatsword, etc.

Of course, shove helps casters too (can push enemies away) as does Jump/Disengage which lets them use a bonus action to get away from an enemy with no AOO. And the way Surfaces work favors casters and greatly buffs cantrips. So I wouldn't say Larian necessarily favors martials so much as they've given cool new toys to everyone -- but spells are already cool toys, and a caster would for the most part rather use their actions on spells rather than these new toys, while fighters have little else to do with their bonus actions.

[Morty]

With the matter of classes -- I hope our companions have their chosen class, and can perhaps unlock some multiclass options through a quest (anyone remember that dearf fighter who wants to become a monk in Neverwinter Nights 2? I think that sort of idea is awesome and hope to see something similar here, rather than fully open "make your companions however you'd like" style.

This is admittedly a somewhat precarious example, because a) Khelgar's attributes were lousy for a monk and b) his other personal quest involved a magic warhammer, which he couldn't use as a monk. Though that was also a problem if you kept him as a fighter but specialized him in literally any other weapon.

[Babale]

This is admittedly a somewhat precarious example, because a) Khelgar's attributes were lousy for a monk and b) his other personal quest involved a magic warhammer, which he couldn't use as a monk. Though that was also a problem if you kept him as a fighter but specialized him in literally any other weapon.

I kinda liked the fact that Khelgar wasn't going into Monkhood with the right mindset, and that his monk build ended up being a fairly untraditional strength based one. I do agree that the loss of the warhammer was pretty lame, though.

[Dienekes]

I haven't played the early access. What exactly has Larian changed that favors the martials?

Neither have I actually. But I have been looking up the mechanics. Other than just reworking the early ranger levels dramatically. What I was thinking about was that Shove is now a Bonus Action which dramatically favors classes that get Athletics as a skill and focus Strength which is pretty exclusively martial territory. And that every weapon now seems to have a 1/Short Rest ability attached to it.

[Keltest]

At least in the version i have, Khelgar actually can still use the hammer. But yes, specializing him in the Dwarven Waraxe that he starts out with and that the auto-leveler will use is a huge trap in that case.

[Starbuck_II]

I haven't played the early access. What exactly has Larian changed that favors the martials?

Everyone can jump as a bonus action, distance determined by Str. Everyone is a Gummi Bear (loved that show)
Martials are more likely to have high str.

I usually jump to get closer before moving toward enemy to attack them in melee.

[Babale]

Everyone can jump as a bonus action, distance determined by Str. Everyone is a Gummi Bear (loved that show)
Martials are more likely to have high str.

I usually jump to get closer before moving toward enemy to attack them in melee.

I started off jumping all the time, then I took TWF on Wyll and now I am having a hard time remembering to save my bonus action for the off hand attack... need to try a rogue soon

[KillianHawkeye]

So, we got two short rests per day now. Anyone else playing with the new update?

There are some interesting changes in the patch notes. In particular, I like how your party follows you if you jump across somewhere even if they couldn't make the jumps individually. Stops you from being forced to separate your party. I think I also saw something about getting XP for resolving situations peacefully as well, which is nice.

[Name_Here]

Neither have I actually. But I have been looking up the mechanics. Other than just reworking the early ranger levels dramatically. What I was thinking about was that Shove is now a Bonus Action which dramatically favors classes that get Athletics as a skill and focus Strength which is pretty exclusively martial territory. And that every weapon now seems to have a 1/Short Rest ability attached to it.

Also the enemy AI is set to favor attacking the lowest AC pretty exclusively and coupling that with the bigger enemies having the ability to jump kinda makes wizards squishy speed bumps since the martial classes can't form a battle line.

[Clertar]

In particular, I like how your party follows you if you jump across somewhere even if they couldn't make the jumps individually. Stops you from being forced to separate your party.

That's reasonable, similar to how skill checks worked in Pathfinder: Kingmaker (if one character manages to climb up a rope, the whole party will also follow).

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

That's reasonable, similar to how skill checks worked in Pathfinder: Kingmaker (if one character manages to climb up a rope, the whole party will also follow).

Here's an interesting area where how game design vs DM design works very differently. Having an in-person party have a choice between "skill check that some can't make to take a more advantageous route" vs "skill check that other portion of the party can't make to take other advantageous route" vs "skill-check-less route that the whole party can take but less advantageous" works, because you can modify the challenge that each "portion" of the party makes in order to make each challenge appropriate. In a video game though you would have to code a variant that appropriately challenges any number of people from 1 to a whole party going to particular path ahead of time!

I've been running a Vampire: the Requiem game that literally requires the party to be split into at least 2 groups the entire time (5 players, and any time 5 vampires gather in one place they all die), and most of the time has been 3-4 groups at a time. While it's definitely a challenge to jump between party member "scenes" at appropriate times to keep the dramatic challenge, when it works (and you get better with time), it's very satisfying, for the players as well. Harder virtually because so much relies on reading body language to figure out who's "clocking out" and needs a scene to bring them back but.

[DanswordMaia]

About the game of my youth, the truth is not this part.This theme made me go and download the game.