Baldur's Gate III (2)

[Eurus]

The "Illithid Meter" and "Affinity Meters" are still hidden, yes. We'll see if that changes in time, but...

As for the nature of the tadpoles, I found something interesting with Auntie Ethel.

Ooh, interesting. Has anyone figured out...

Spoiler

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...What caught you/stopped you from dying when you fell out of the nautiloid?

[Keltest]

Ooh, interesting. Has anyone figured out...

Spoiler

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...What caught you/stopped you from dying when you fell out of the nautiloid?

Spoiler

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I havent seen anything specific yet, so my current assumption is that it was the tadpole. Levitation is one of the specific powers of illithids.

[danzibr]

Ooohhh just did a bit of googling, Warlock is one of the classes. I'd love to go Warlock > Hexblade > pact weapon thingy.

EDIT: Whoa, just learned of the Undying uhh patron or whatever. Cool.

[Calemyr]

Ooohhh just did a bit of googling, Warlock is one of the classes. I'd love to go Warlock > Hexblade > pact weapon thingy.

EDIT: Whoa, just learned of the Undying uhh patron or whatever. Cool.

At this point in Early Access, only Fiend and Old one are available for patrons and Pact of the Chain for pacts. We'll see what they can implement. But yes, my "current" (COVID-postponed) campaign has me playing a Hexblade as well, and I enjoy it immensely. That's probably not hurt by the fact that the character is a merchant and the black blade he's bonded to is intent on turning him into a hero whether he likes it or not.

[danzibr]

At this point in Early Access, only Fiend and Old one are available for patrons and Pact of the Chain for pacts. We'll see what they can implement. But yes, my "current" (COVID-postponed) campaign has me playing a Hexblade as well, and I enjoy it immensely. That's probably not hurt by the fact that the character is a merchant and the black blade he's bonded to is intent on turning him into a hero whether he likes it or not.

Thanks for the info!

Also, I like the character concept :)

The one and only time I played 5E, rolled a Warforged Rogue -> Assassin. Started LN, obeyed programming (so to speak), highly impressionable, didn't know anything about organics. Had some, uhh, bad influences, but ultimately turned out alright.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Been replaying the first several hours now as most of the classes, save the fighter and rogue right now because what I've seen from the NPC's, I'm not sure I want to yet. Thoughts, coming at this from a 5e DM that knows the ruleset pretty intimately:

*Ranger, wow. They really improved this class. Their replacement options for the usually terrible Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain are extremely powerful. Hunter's Mark only stops coming back to you if you lose concentration or take a rest, a good impetus to never rest as one. Played it with high stealth, Dueling style with rapier/shield, went Hunter with Colossus Slayer, was an absolute combat monster. You remember the goblin ambush from all the gameplay demos? I basically turned it into turn-based Metal Gear Solid, and it was awesome.

*Clerics are mostly what you'd expect. Trickery domain is as terrible here as it ever was on the tabletop, with the added issues of being unable to choose your starting equipment (so the subclass that probably wants light armor and a finesse weapon still gets a chain shirt and a mace) and the fact that Invoke Duplicity is a complete and utter waste of time thanks to what they did to Minor Illusion (more on that later). Life and Light, meanwhile, are as strong as ever. Good overall, I have no complaints, but there is a hilarious quirk; Sacred Flame doesn't require line of sight. Or for them to be in the same room. The only requirements for it are that your target is within your very large radius. Go hide your cleric behind a door in another zip code and snipe from safety! Not sure if I want Larian to fix this or not.

*Warlock is as Warlock does- kind of terrible at level 1, gets very good at level 2. The invocations are slightly stripped down, but Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast are there, and they do exactly what you expect them to do. The only thing that surprisingly kind of stinks is Hex. You can't reapply it to another creature, which is strange since Hunter's Mark still works that way. Sucks, but if your party is okay with short rests after every combat, you can get super spammy with your decent blaster spells, or just be a dullard and turn on Armor of Agathys every single fight and cast Eldritch Blast until the button wears out.

*Wizard is a mixed bag. A lot of what they do is what you'd expect and want. Then they got a few buffs on spells, a few nerfs, and there's two giant, glaring omissions right now that are probably temporary but also feeds into a larger problem. Fire bolt does a measely d6 damage but lights everything in a small radius around your target on fire, dealing a d4 of fire damage to anything that starts there, anything that moves through it, and an extra d4 to anything that was caught on fire, too. So yeah, d6 on paper, but in practice it eclipses the old d10 by a lot, and since the fire field happens even on a miss, you're guaranteed to hurt anyone you throw this at. Ray of Frost does everything you're used to, but it will also freeze any water or blood in the area, which creates difficult terrain and requires a Dex save from anyone walking on it to not trip and fall prone- another excellent controller option that comes up often due to the copious amounts of blood you're going to be slinging around. It also puts out flames, which is pretty important. Mage Hand is combat-oriented and barely usable out of combat, a fairly strange reversal. It acts like a summon pet that you can use as a distraction or for spamming shoves for more control, which is a good reason to have it out if you can't think of a better thing to concentrate on. Oh, and as I hinted with the trickery cleric, Minor Illusion is insanely good now. Can be used in stealth, creates a distraction that enemies are compelled to go investigate. It literally does what Invoke Duplicity does except it's infinite use and doesn't break stealth. This is so good that anyone that wants to play with stealth should seriously consider finding a way to get it (high elf or half high elf can start with it on any class), this opens up a ton of options. Speaking of, Find Familiar has been nerfed into the absolute dirt. Seemed strange to me that neither the recommended class choices nor the premade Wizard had it until I went to use it myself. It has a time limit, for starters. But more importantly is that they have nothing but combat/scouting capabilities. It's usually not worth the spell slot to cast because of this, and it's very disappointing. Also, I just can't for the life of me figure out how to use Arcane Recovery. The button appears to be non-functional, but either that's me or because it hasn't been perfected yet. If it's me, I really hope they make the operation more intuitive, because I cannot figure it out. As for the two omissions, the first is ritual casting. There are tooltips in places that mention it like it's a thing, but unless I'm missing it, there is no ritual casting right now. Buyer beware, keep this in mind when selecting spells (though the spell list seems to have been paired down to neglect staple rituals anyway). The second omission is Shield, which after Find Familiar is probably the most universally picked spell on the tabletop. But I have doubts that it's inclusion will be a good thing, since the way reactions work in this game are absolutely punishing for a vancian caster. I'll get to this later, but know that wizards have no reaction abilities right now that I've seen.

*Rogues got shafted bad. I haven't played one directly, but indirectly through the party member Astarion. Who is built kind of crap, by the way, being a high elf with 9 Int for some insane reason. Even without that, though- there are three reasons to go rogue in early levels: Expertise, Sneak Attack, and Cunning Action. Expertise is gone, so we're off to a bad start. Sneak Attack is a separate action from regular attacks for some insane reason beyond my mortal comprehension. Besides making a bad trap where clicking without thinking means that, while you SHOULD have had Sneak Attack, you don't get it because you didn't go through the interface and select the Sneak Attack ability, it also means you can never sneak attack with an offhand weapon. Ever. There is no option for it. Finally, Cunning Action. Hoo boy. Everyone in the game can now hide or disengage (which is, hilariously, tied to jumping) as a bonus action. That's 2/3 of what Cunning Action even does. So Rogues only get it for dashing. Yay. Great. Because Astarion's stats are as wonky as they are, I was essentially forced to make him a Thief at level 3. They get a second bonus action for some bizarre reason, which actually is pretty neat and can make dual-wielding a little less awful (still no attribute bonus on it and no chance at sneak attack), and then they get resistance to fall damage. You're wondering about what happened to their traditional Fast Hands, right? Well, now everyone can drink potions as a bonus action! In fact, a lot of items now work on bonus actions! In summation, the company rogue at Larian was caught photocopying their butt in the boss's office. That's the only reason I can give for why they're this terrible. And rangers can start with thieves' tool proficiency to salt that wound further. Don't bother.

*Fighters don't get their fighting style until level 2. I don't know why. It just makes them that much less interesting at level 1. Why do this? Also because of the lack of gear selection, playing a Dex-based fighter is going to be a slog early because you're going to be kitted with heavy armor and a longsword no matter what your intentions are. You get a bow, though, so you can make archery work okay for a bit. Just be careful.

Okay, now on reactions and why I hate them. Reactions are a toggle thing. You turn them on during your turn, and then you automatically use it the first time the opportunity presents itself. You don't get any tactical consideration on this. Ran your fighter up to an archer to stop them, but a grunt walked past first? They trigger your Attack of Opportunity, and now the archer can freely walk away from you, too bad, you never get the option to do otherwise. Remember how Rogues need to use a specific Sneak Attack action to get it? As one last little middle finger, they can never get one from an AoO because of it. But you think THIS is bad? Try reactions with limited uses, like the warlock's Hellish Rebuke, or the light cleric's Warding Flare. You don't get to tell the system not to waste it on small things. You can't time it to only use them on important targets instead of grunts. While Shield isn't in the game, I'd be hesitant to actually use it because of this, it's such an unnecessary gamble. And Counterspell, hahaha, man. That poor spell. I was worried about this during gameplay reveals, and I can confirm that it feels exactly as bad as I'd feared. The reaction system is disappointingly terrible. I know they don't want to slow down the game, but there had to be a better way. Just let me set condition triggers or something, please!

The action bars are also an absolute mess, and the inventory and characters sheet screens aren't helping. You get a bunch of them, sure, but would it have killed Larian to separate them between actions and bonus actions? How about spell levels for the casters? I'd KILL for a spellbook! There is no clear visual indication what level any spell is, you have to hover over them for the tooltip or memorize their placement. This is especially egregious considering how well Solasta handled this, I know it can be done! By default the system just haphazardly throws every single ability, potion, and scroll onto your bar without any rhyme or reason. You can turn this off (or if you're an absolute masochist, let it add other things like throwables, too), but then you'd better remember every time you get a thing to go through all your crap and find it, make room for it, drag it onto your bar (not as easy as it sounds, system's a little glitchy on drags for some reason), and try to remember what it was. The option to open your inventory and still have the main screen open at the same time is a hidden option (it's that little square thing in the corner of the inventory screen). There's no sort option, so good luck there, too! It took me a legitimate 2 hours to figure out where the XP bar is (character sheet screen, bottom right corner. It's NOWHERE ELSE), and finding non-spell abilities requires a team of forensic investigators to locate (I *think* they're in the middle section of the character sheet, under the correct class and level headers. At least that's where the scientists inform me it is). This is all a huge headache, and from Solasta, I know for a fact it doesn't need to be. Whining about this is going to be like 90% of my early access responses to Larian, I swear.

As for skill checks and progression, I can definitely confirm that save scumming will be necessary if you don't want to miss huge swaths of content. Often you'll need to make 2-4 successful skill checks to actually proceed with getting a quest, or hearing interesting or useful lore, or gaining access to neat rewards, or even just proceeding with the main quest without needing to wander around blind for a different thread. I've often lectured other DM's that this is bad design, and here it is. I wouldn't mind if they offered alternate means of progression, and sometimes they do. But often you get the gaming equivalent of a door slammed in your face. Shadowheart for any githyanki players is the most egregious example right now, offering you a single skill check to have her not ditch you. You get to try it later if you failed, but I haven't seen any opportunity past these two, and if you weren't a Charisma character, it's that much worse for you. So save scum to get past these issues. Often.

Speaking of, haha oh man do I hate Shadowheart. Her hostile behavior when you first meet her only feels over the top if you're a githyanki or have low Charisma, but hey, I'm a fan of your character decisions mattering, so this doesn't bug me. What does is how hostile she is to basically every responsible choice you could make. She hates heroic choices, she hates pragmatic choices, she hates, she hates. And she's a hypocritical bigot besides. Spoilers below.

Spoiler: Shadowheart is the worst

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For starters, she tries to get you to abandon Lae'zel when you find her again for the crime of being githyanki in broad daylight, I guess. Shadowheart disapproves literally any time you agree with or are nice to Lae'zel. When the world's worst hidden secret, that Astarion is a vampire spawn, comes to light, Shadowheart is the absolute most distrustful of him. This is despite demonstrating that he has good control over his hunger, has suddenly become forthright about what's going on, and there are notable other weird things happening like how he doesn't burn in the sun that posits a lot of questions about the situation. If you don't chastise Astarion for... existing, I guess, Shadowheart disapproves. Fine, whatever. She's a bigot, got it. Later, you come across a town where a bunch of goblins try to ambush you. A quick look around tells you that these goblins have murdered all of the villagers, and pretty recently by the looks of things. There's a barn on the edge of town where you find a female ogre and a male bugbear, surrounded by bones and corpses from villagers they appear to have not only killed, but are eating. I get the drop on them and have one of the toughest fights in the game taking them down. Then Shadowheart decides to have a conversation where she accuses me of being jealous and hateful of their beautiful love. You know, the murderous invading cannibals, surrounded by the gore of their evildoing, who's pals laid a trap to murder us, too. Who were in the middle of torturing a gnome at the windmill for funsies. Remember how she treated Lae'zel and Astarion for merely existing? That's when I decided I didn't really need a cleric after all.

To top it off she's built terribly. A trickery domain cleric with 9 Dex and no Stealth training. Just... why? Chain shirt and a shield brings her to the lofty heights of a 14 AC. Perfect for wading into combat with her mace and 15 Strength! Woo!

...I like all the other characters. Sure, Astarion starts by trying to kill you, but he's actually a fun character with a bit of nuance. Lae'zel is no-nonsense and strict, but she's pretty cool when you get to know her and gets some great action scenes. I haven't gotten Wyll yet (pretty sure I know where he is, just haven't gone there), but his one appearance to save me and a bunch of adventurers in a combat, suddenly dashing in with a rapier like he was Errol Flynn, was crazy awesome. Then there's Gale, who is hands down the most likable character in the entire game. He's like Sherlock Holmes if he was genuinely charming. Very erudite and loves showing that off, but legitimately kind and caring. I almost feel bad making him an evocation wizard and having him fricassee people with Burning Hands. Almost.

Jumping (which is also a disengage) is really stupid looking and I absolutely love it and hope they never change it. Everyone is a gummy bear. It allows you to pull off some really great shenanigans if you plan out your attacks carefully.

Outside of the combat things I've mentioned, combat feels really good. So good that I actually wish there was a bit more kick-door-fight-orc in here. I mean, there's a decent amount of combat, I just wish there was even more. It has just the right balance between difficulty and tactical possibility that every encounter feels like a playground where you try and find the weirdest way to win. Sneaky light cleric Channel Divinity from behind is currently my favorite. No one expects the holy hand grenade.

Story's good so far. It isn't going to blow your mind outside of the explosive beginning, but it's solid enough classic heroic fantasy. Find bandits in abandoned tomb, kill bandits and plumb deeper to fight ancient evil. Find goblins that invaded a town, systematically take them down or play their own social infrastructure against them. It's simple, but likeable.

I keep hearing about the mind flayer and fishermen incident. It took me four restarts to even figure out what the problem is.

Spoiler: Mind Flayer Incident

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I have to tut-tut all the players that fall for this, on two fronts. One, most of them go "oh no, I have to murder villagers!" No. No you don't. Bad murderhobo, bad. You don't get a heroic participation medal in this game, you actually have to make heroic choices. At any time, you can just attack the injured mind flayer to end this and snap them out of it. If you murdered innocent people, that was you committing needless murder. Don't tell me you couldn't figure this out for yourself, the game tells you this is what's happening.

The other is, seriously, your level 2 character tries to get into a mental battle with an illithid? Even a dying one, that's idiotic. Even if you weren't a D&D player and didn't know that no level 2 character should try mentally sparring with a MIND FLAYER (look at that name, look at it!), the handful you've seen up until that point were well beyond your measly capabilities. Remember the one on the bridge of the ship that handled a cambion lieutenant solo while you ran for the dimensional transporter? Remember all the health it had, and how much damage it was chucking? How about the one you saw eat a different cambion's brain right before that? This happened about ten minutes before you ran into the injured illithid. You had every reason to believe it was dangerous. If you didn't treat it as such, you deserved what you got.

Now I know I just did a whole metric ton of complaining, but honestly? I'm having a blast. I think Solasta might be an overall better single player 5e D&D game when it comes out, even lacking the production values Larian will no doubt polish up, but there's no comparison for multiplayer. It's in a league of it's own, and only actual tabletop dice rolling D&D is ever going to match it for that. Larian is also really responsive to fan feedback, so I'm hopeful that my complaints can be addressed before launch. I saw it happen in Divinity 2, I honestly trust them to listen. It's got warts that make the price tag a little too extreme for a lot of people right now, but if you've got the money and have some friends, it's a real good time.

And try the ranger. They're really fun now.

[Keltest]

Im also a big fan of Gale so far. Dude has legitimate charm and wit without being a jerk about it. If you told me he was a studious sorcerer instead of a wizard, i wouldnt be at all surprised.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Im also a big fan of Gale so far. Dude has legitimate charm and wit without being a jerk about it. If you told me he was a studious sorcerer instead of a wizard, i wouldnt be at all surprised.

I liked playing a wizard, but for long plays I'll be hesitant to play one just because I don't want to bench Gale. He's that cool.

[huttj509]

Now I know I just did a whole metric ton of complaining, but honestly? I'm having a blast. I think Solasta might be an overall better single player 5e D&D game when it comes out, even lacking the production values Larian will no doubt polish up, but there's no comparison for multiplayer. It's in a league of it's own, and only actual tabletop dice rolling D&D is ever going to match it for that. Larian is also really responsive to fan feedback, so I'm hopeful that my complaints can be addressed before launch. I saw it happen in Divinity 2, I honestly trust them to listen. It's got warts that make the price tag a little too extreme for a lot of people right now, but if you've got the money and have some friends, it's a real good time.

And try the ranger. They're really fun now.

The game is definitely Early Access as present. I think in part there's whiplash via how various games use the term. But for BG3, stuff is unpolished, incomplete, features yet to be added, translations in progress, etc. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/763351879 has a Q and A with the head of Larian for the first 50 mins. A few things that jumped out at me:

1. Conversations. The conversation system is pretty bare bones at present. Things that will be added include being able to cast spells/buff mid conversation, for things like "oh, I want Guidance for this check I had no way of knowing was coming." Also, the ability for other characters to participate rather than just the one who started the conversation. For example, an unexpected Arcana check you could switch to Gale for that (I mean, do you *really* think he'd sit by and watch someone get that wrong?).

2. More companions will be added. They made a deliberate choice to focus on Evil companions in the EA, since those get less play in general, so gives more opportunities to find issues, tweak, and also give characters a chance to grow on people maybe.

I think my main issue, personally, is the UI. It does *not* play nice with spell lists in current implementation. It's also almost certainly one of those "in progress" parts.

But yeah, I've been having fun with it as well, unsure how deep I wanna explore it before release. Only got 1 crash so far (which I filled out the bug report, involved the aftermath of my wizard dying, and a pretty obvious "something glitched here" bit where an item added to my inventory had no icon and quantity 0...that glitched item did NOT like being interacted with.)

[danzibr]

Aww maaaaan Rogue got shafted? Bummer, my favorite class (well, tied for 1st).

[Waterdeep Merch]

The game is definitely Early Access as present. I think in part there's whiplash via how various games use the term. But for BG3, stuff is unpolished, incomplete, features yet to be added, translations in progress, etc. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/763351879 has a Q and A with the head of Larian for the first 50 mins. A few things that jumped out at me:

1. Conversations. The conversation system is pretty bare bones at present. Things that will be added include being able to cast spells/buff mid conversation, for things like "oh, I want Guidance for this check I had no way of knowing was coming." Also, the ability for other characters to participate rather than just the one who started the conversation. For example, an unexpected Arcana check you could switch to Gale for that (I mean, do you *really* think he'd sit by and watch someone get that wrong?).

2. More companions will be added. They made a deliberate choice to focus on Evil companions in the EA, since those get less play in general, so gives more opportunities to find issues, tweak, and also give characters a chance to grow on people maybe.

I think my main issue, personally, is the UI. It does *not* play nice with spell lists in current implementation. It's also almost certainly one of those "in progress" parts.

But yeah, I've been having fun with it as well, unsure how deep I wanna explore it before release. Only got 1 crash so far (which I filled out the bug report, involved the aftermath of my wizard dying, and a pretty obvious "something glitched here" bit where an item added to my inventory had no icon and quantity 0...that glitched item did NOT like being interacted with.)

I was around during the Divinity 2 Early Access, too. It was super rough back then, nothing like the polished product everyone knows today. Between that and how they've always done right by their fans, I think tallying up every last little frustration I can think of is useful, because there's a fairly good chance that they will be fixed if I tell them about it. Fingers crossed on those reactions!

That's good to hear about the conversations and companions, that might honestly fix a lot of my problem with one-and-done skill check lockouts. And anything to use a different cleric, please.

Weirdly, I've had 0 crashes and no bugging out beyond three people that I guess I hit so hard that their bodies contorted and stretched about 30 feet in different directions as they rubberbanded and flailed about on an unseen, powerful draft in the room. Two of those happened when I was the ranger. Just saying, maybe it was intended. Rangers are strong.

[Calemyr]

<Good Stuff>

Nice. Agree with you pretty much across the board, though my path took me down a slightly different course of events than yours did.

I'm playing a wood elf ranger with Bounty Hunter and Urban Sprawl. Renders a rogue pretty darn superfluous. really, which is a shame because Astarion is infectious. Took Hunter and Hoard Breaker at level 3. Less impressed by that, because either Horde Breaker is poorly defined or not working. Either way, it seems to do nothing but put a debuff on enemies near the target that doesn't do anything.
That said, having a one-stop shop that handles stealth, melee, ranged, utility, and off-healer in one package is frickin' awesome. I'd probably go colossus if I could respec, since reliable extra damage is better than a debuff that doesn't seem to do anything.

My party so far has been Shadowheart, Gale, and Wyll. I'd love to get Lae-zel into the mix as I'm sorely lacking a tank, but I need cleric and the other two are two blasted charismatic to kick off the team. Shadowheart doesn't piss me off as bad as she does you, but I can certainly recognize your complaints - she's almost always on the opposite side of everything from Lae-zel. and hides everything no matter how much of her secrets you uncover. Gale isn't particularly useful most of the time, because he hasn't got darkvision and that means his accuracy in dungeons is crap and he's not worth much when he's not casting, but when I need a heavy hand or a charming smile, he is there to provide.

Wyll, on the other hand? Man, I love this guy. Dealt a bad hand and forced to make a bad deal, Wyll just takes the short end of the stick he was given and hoists it like a flag and smiles for the crowd. His stats kinda suck for melee, which is how he presents himself, 9 STR and 13 DEX, but his CON and CHA make him a great Eldritch Blaster who can take a punch. He'd be a god if he were a Hexblade. You wouldn't expect a Fiend Warlock to be a hero, but Wyll does a pretty good job holding up the role.

My biggest problem with the game so far, outside of the unpolished difficulty spikes you'd expect in an early access game, is an element of Larian's style. And that's its lack of focus. Divinity had this as well. You're dropped in an environment with a vague objective and huge pile of tools, but no real direction. It's just wander around blindly until you stumble upon a plot point that actually advances the story. Baldur's Gate 1 let you go anywhere you liked and do anything you wished, but made it clear that the next plot point was in Nashkel and it's on you if you want to explore. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter whether you've been dumped on Fort Joy or the outskirts of Baldur's Gate, there's nothing for it but to explore every corner of every map because we sure as Hades aren't going to tell you what to do next. It's just a stylistic difference that makes it harder for me to get as invested. It's more about the experience than the story, if that makes any sense, more Minecraft than movie.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Nice. Agree with you pretty much across the board, though my path took me down a slightly different course of events than yours did.

I'm playing a wood elf ranger with Bounty Hunter and Urban Sprawl. Renders a rogue pretty darn superfluous. really, which is a shame because Astarion is infectious. Took Hunter and Hoard Breaker at level 3. Less impressed by that, because either Horde Breaker is poorly defined or not working. Either way, it seems to do nothing but put a debuff on enemies near the target that doesn't do anything.
That said, having a one-stop shop that handles stealth, melee, ranged, utility, and off-healer in one package is frickin' awesome. I'd probably go colossus if I could respec, since reliable extra damage is better than a debuff that doesn't seem to do anything.

My party so far has been Shadowheart, Gale, and Wyll. I'd love to get Lae-zel into the mix as I'm sorely lacking a tank, but I need cleric and the other two are two blasted charismatic to kick off the team. Shadowheart doesn't piss me off as bad as she does you, but I can certainly recognize your complaints - she's almost always on the opposite side of everything from Lae-zel. and hides everything no matter how much of her secrets you uncover. Gale isn't particularly useful most of the time, because he hasn't got darkvision and that means his accuracy in dungeons is crap and he's not worth much when he's not casting, but when I need a heavy hand or a charming smile, he is there to provide.

Wyll, on the other hand? Man, I love this guy. Dealt a bad hand and forced to make a bad deal, Wyll just takes the short end of the stick he was given and hoists it like a flag and smiles for the crowd. His stats kinda suck for melee, which is how he presents himself, 9 STR and 13 DEX, but his CON and CHA make him a great Eldritch Blaster who can take a punch. He'd be a god if he were a Hexblade. You wouldn't expect a Fiend Warlock to be a hero, but Wyll does a pretty good job holding up the role.

My biggest problem with the game so far, outside of the unpolished difficulty spikes you'd expect in an early access game, is an element of Larian's style. And that's its lack of focus. Divinity had this as well. You're dropped in an environment with a vague objective and huge pile of tools, but no real direction. It's just wander around blindly until you stumble upon a plot point that actually advances the story. Baldur's Gate 1 let you go anywhere you liked and do anything you wished, but made it clear that the next plot point was in Nashkel and it's on you if you want to explore. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter whether you've been dumped on Fort Joy or the outskirts of Baldur's Gate, there's nothing for it but to explore every corner of every map because we sure as Hades aren't going to tell you what to do next. It's just a stylistic difference that makes it harder for me to get as invested. It's more about the experience than the story, if that makes any sense, more Minecraft than movie.

I really need to get Wyll

Spoiler: About Wyll

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Is he in the druid camp? I figured he was, but I decided to go take out the goblins in search of their missing master first, since I figured I'd make a better impression if I saved them outright instead of begging for their help and being given the quest as a bargain instead. Prove my goodwill and intentions before I ask for a hand, if you will. Doubt it will matter, but I do enjoy roleplaying in my roleplaying games, even solo.

[Calemyr]

I really need to get Wyll

Spoiler: About Wyll

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Is he in the druid camp? I figured he was, but I decided to go take out the goblins in search of their missing master first, since I figured I'd make a better impression if I saved them outright instead of begging for their help and being given the quest as a bargain instead. Prove my goodwill and intentions before I ask for a hand, if you will. Doubt it will matter, but I do enjoy roleplaying in my roleplaying games, even solo.

Spoiler: Wyll

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Yeah, he's about halfway into the circle, teaching some children swordsmanship. He's very keen on killing the goblins, too, so he'd be all about your plan. He's also got multiple very personal stakes in the goblin encampment, so it's a very good idea to get him first.

Spoiler: Addendum regarding Wyll

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The first real reveal about Wyll happens when you get to the windmill in the Blighted Village (with the gnome tied to it). If you've already done this part, you may want to go back to an earlier save.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Spoiler: Wyll

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Yeah, he's about halfway into the circle, teaching some children swordsmanship. He's very keen on killing the goblins, too, so he'd be all about your plan. He's also got multiple very personal stakes in the goblin encampment, so it's a very good idea to get him first.

Spoiler: Wyll Do

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What a convenient time to have a Shadowheart-sized hole in my team. Thanks!

[Morty]

*Rogues got shafted bad. I haven't played one directly, but indirectly through the party member Astarion. Who is built kind of crap, by the way, being a high elf with 9 Int for some insane reason. Even without that, though- there are three reasons to go rogue in early levels: Expertise, Sneak Attack, and Cunning Action. Expertise is gone, so we're off to a bad start. Sneak Attack is a separate action from regular attacks for some insane reason beyond my mortal comprehension. Besides making a bad trap where clicking without thinking means that, while you SHOULD have had Sneak Attack, you don't get it because you didn't go through the interface and select the Sneak Attack ability, it also means you can never sneak attack with an offhand weapon. Ever. There is no option for it. Finally, Cunning Action. Hoo boy. Everyone in the game can now hide or disengage (which is, hilariously, tied to jumping) as a bonus action. That's 2/3 of what Cunning Action even does. So Rogues only get it for dashing. Yay. Great. Because Astarion's stats are as wonky as they are, I was essentially forced to make him a Thief at level 3. They get a second bonus action for some bizarre reason, which actually is pretty neat and can make dual-wielding a little less awful (still no attribute bonus on it and no chance at sneak attack), and then they get resistance to fall damage. You're wondering about what happened to their traditional Fast Hands, right? Well, now everyone can drink potions as a bonus action! In fact, a lot of items now work on bonus actions! In summation, the company rogue at Larian was caught photocopying their butt in the boss's office. That's the only reason I can give for why they're this terrible. And rangers can start with thieves' tool proficiency to salt that wound further. Don't bother.

I've been hearing about rogues getting shafted. I thought the double bonus action thing applies to all rogues, but if it's just thieves... then basic rogues get nothing in exchange for Cunning Action no longer being unique. And no Expertise? That's just baffling, that's what it is. It's one of rogues' main selling points. And it doesn't sound like they're any less of a one-trick pony, on top of it all.

*Fighters don't get their fighting style until level 2. I don't know why. It just makes them that much less interesting at level 1. Why do this? Also because of the lack of gear selection, playing a Dex-based fighter is going to be a slog early because you're going to be kitted with heavy armor and a longsword no matter what your intentions are. You get a bow, though, so you can make archery work okay for a bit. Just be careful.

That's... really weird. So they only have Second Wind on level 1? Maybe it's because they knew you'd be starting with a longsword no matter what? Either way, fighters hardly need to have less interesting things on low levels. I can't say I'm surprised Larian treat finesse fighters as an afterthought, though.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've been hearing about rogues getting shafted. I thought the double bonus action thing applies to all rogues, but if it's just thieves... then basic rogues get nothing in exchange for Cunning Action no longer being unique. And no Expertise? That's just baffling, that's what it is. It's one of rogues' main selling points. And it doesn't sound like they're any less of a one-trick pony, on top of it all.

At the moment, I'd say there is zero reason to play a rogue. You can get all their tools on other classes that can contribute more meaningfully. Urban rangers are rogues but with useful abilities.

That's... really weird. So they only have Second Wind on level 1? Maybe it's because they knew you'd be starting with a longsword no matter what? Either way, fighters hardly need to have less interesting things on low levels. I can't say I'm surprised Larian treat finesse fighters as an afterthought, though.

Finesse fighting works fine when you actually have the equipment to support it, as demonstrated with the ranger. I have a feeling they tried to take out as many first level choices as possible to prevent overloading the uninitiated, but I don't think that was a particularly good idea (or even universal considering how much you still need to decide on as... everyone that isn't a fighter or rogue). Which is also probably why they don't let you pick your equipment loadouts, which again, I don't think is a particularly good way of handling things. If they want to keep things simple, an equipment package like they offer in the PHB would be more than sufficient.

And lemme make those first level decisions! Let me ruin a character at creation if I want to, it's already possible with point buy anyway!

[LaZodiac]

If it helps at all, all melee weapons have special once per rest actions you can do, which makes Fighters a bit more interesting.

Also, a very important piece of advice: If you have complaints like Rogues being shafted or Fighter's being a bit boring... tidy up those complaints and send em to Larian. This game is in early access for a reason, let em know. Given Larian just posted some stuff being like "Hey uh, guys. We gave you the world and you're still making default human fighters. Jazz it up!" they seem like a company who would absolutely listen to well written nuanced complaints like we've been seeing in this thread.

Also, Astarian is so obviously, overtly what he is that I'm genuinely expecting a twist. I quite like it really, even Shadowheart has a certain degree of sass that I don't immediately mind... for the most part. Haven't me Gale and no idea where he is, but I can say Wyll is... absolutely excellent, one of his character traits is that he makes up idioms and sayings and keeps a list of which ones do and don't work, and I've never seen something that is more "this is just another person at the table with you" than that.

[Morty]

At the moment, I'd say there is zero reason to play a rogue. You can get all their tools on other classes that can contribute more meaningfully. Urban rangers are rogues but with useful abilities.

I'm actually not in favor of expertise as it exists on tabletop, since it kind of means only rogues and bards can be really good at skills. But if you remove expertise altogether, rogues need something pretty serious in exchange.

Finesse fighting works fine when you actually have the equipment to support it, as demonstrated with the ranger. I have a feeling they tried to take out as many first level choices as possible to prevent overloading the uninitiated, but I don't think that was a particularly good idea (or even universal considering how much you still need to decide on as... everyone that isn't a fighter or rogue). Which is also probably why they don't let you pick your equipment loadouts, which again, I don't think is a particularly good way of handling things. If they want to keep things simple, an equipment package like they offer in the PHB would be more than sufficient.

And lemme make those first level decisions! Let me ruin a character at creation if I want to, it's already possible with point buy anyway!

If you make the choice of fighting style at level 2, it's still plenty of time to regret it later. And starting equipment can be solved by some conveniently-placed weapons early on. It's not a very big deal, just strange.

As far as finesse fighting goes, it's mostly annoying that you're essentially stuck with rapiers if you want it. Like okay, I don't want a two-handed finesse weapon or anything, but maybe something that's not a sewing needle? Then again it might not be fair to blame Larian for not fixing it. And it's not a surprise because they showed very little creativity when it came to weapons in DOS2.

Also, a very important piece of advice: If you have complaints like Rogues being shafted or Fighter's being a bit boring... tidy up those complaints and send em to Larian. This game is in early access for a reason, let em know. Given Larian just posted some stuff being like "Hey uh, guys. We gave you the world and you're still making default human fighters. Jazz it up!" they seem like a company who would absolutely listen to well written nuanced complaints like we've been seeing in this thread.

If that's their attitude, it explains some things and makes me suspect fighters and rogues are as good as they'll get in this game.

[Waterdeep Merch]

If it helps at all, all melee weapons have special once per rest actions you can do, which makes Fighters a bit more interesting.

Also, a very important piece of advice: If you have complaints like Rogues being shafted or Fighter's being a bit boring... tidy up those complaints and send em to Larian. This game is in early access for a reason, let em know. Given Larian just posted some stuff being like "Hey uh, guys. We gave you the world and you're still making default human fighters. Jazz it up!" they seem like a company who would absolutely listen to well written nuanced complaints like we've been seeing in this thread.

Also, Astarian is so obviously, overtly what he is that I'm genuinely expecting a twist. I quite like it really, even Shadowheart has a certain degree of sass that I don't immediately mind... for the most part. Haven't me Gale and no idea where he is, but I can say Wyll is... absolutely excellent, one of his character traits is that he makes up idioms and sayings and keeps a list of which ones do and don't work, and I've never seen something that is more "this is just another person at the table with you" than that.

Spoiler: On Gale

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If you go through the ship wreckage to the injured mind flayer and hang a right, continue to the waypoint right past the three goblin corpses. Gale pops out from it.

[Morty]

Now that I think about it, maybe the fighting style thing is to let players try out different styles first, before they hit level 2? That depends on how much opportunity there is for it.

[LaZodiac]

If that's their attitude, it explains some things and makes me suspect fighters and rogues are as good as they'll get in this game.

Their issue was less on being a fighter and more on character creation being used to make a guy who looks like the most generic human imaginable. And I was wrong, the default class was Cleric in their testing of what most people used, not fighter. Not surprising given Cleric is what you start on when CC starts.

Spoiler: On Gale

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If you go through the ship wreckage to the injured mind flayer and hang a right, continue to the waypoint right past the three goblin corpses. Gale pops out from it.

Thanks! I had this same sort of issue in Dragon Age and Divinity OS2, where I just ended up missing a party member (Leliana in DA, Beast in DOS2). They've really gotta telegraph this part better.

[Calemyr]

I've been hearing about rogues getting shafted. I thought the double bonus action thing applies to all rogues, but if it's just thieves... then basic rogues get nothing in exchange for Cunning Action no longer being unique. And no Expertise? That's just baffling, that's what it is. It's one of rogues' main selling points. And it doesn't sound like they're any less of a one-trick pony, on top of it all.

It's worth noting that there is no such thing as a "basic rogue". At level 2 you decide between Arcane Trickster and Thief. Thief gets a second bonus action and resistance to fall damage (quite handy if you intend to push the Illithid Leap ability to its full potential, as the ability doesn't include any form of landing safety), while Arcane Trickster gets spell casting and their Arcane Hand cantrip summons an invisible hand rather than your standard visible one. You don't get to "stay basic".

[Morty]

It's worth noting that there is no such thing as a "basic rogue". At level 2 you decide between Arcane Trickster and Thief. Thief gets a second bonus action and resistance to fall damage (quite handy if you intend to push the Illithid Leap ability to its full potential, as the ability doesn't include any form of landing safety), while Arcane Trickster gets spell casting and their Arcane Hand cantrip summons an invisible hand rather than your standard visible one. You don't get to "stay basic".

...I'm aware how subclasses work in D&D 5e, yes. That doesn't really change my point. Cunning Action, as a feature, is worth a lot less now (not that it was ever anything to write home about).

[Dienekes]

Yeah, I’m of the opinion that giving everyone more stuff to do with bonus actions is a net positive thing, unequivocally.

But when one class’ whole shtick was basically “I can do some of those interesting things with my bonus action.” You have to replace it with something good. Admittedly, getting two such bonus actions is kinda awesome, but I don’t think that alone is enough.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Yeah, I’m of the opinion that giving everyone more stuff to do with bonus actions is a net positive thing, unequivocally.

But when one class’ whole shtick was basically “I can do some of those interesting things with my bonus action.” You have to replace it with something good. Admittedly, getting two such bonus actions is kinda awesome, but I don’t think that alone is enough.

I agree on the bonus actions, they feel good on everyone else. And I know they can fix the rogue to work with this. Look at the ranger! Look how good they are now!

Just give them something fun to use in exchange for the missing Expertise and the much-defanged Cunning Action. It doesn't have to be crazy, I'd just like to see them get something besides an extremely counterintuitive Sneak Attack in their core class. The subclasses are... adequate, I guess, so long as the main class is pumped up a little more. I bet I'll like Arcane Trickster more than Thief. Two bonus actions is undeniably good, but it's on the bland side overall.

[Calemyr]

...I'm aware how subclasses work in D&D 5e, yes. That doesn't really change my point. Cunning Action, as a feature, is worth a lot less now (not that it was ever anything to write home about).

Fair enough. I didn't mean any insult. If you had been coming from a purely Baldur's Gate angle, and not a master of the 5e ruleset, the potential for "kitless" characters wouldn't have been an unnatural assumption or concern. My bad for responding to a concern that hadn't in fact been raised.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Just noticed- the multiplayer lobby has level settings for "20-25" and "25+".

Are they... doing epic levels?!

[Calemyr]

Just noticed- the multiplayer lobby has level settings for "20-25" and "25+".

Are they... doing epic levels?!

Supposedly not, they only recently admitted they might be going over level 10, which had been the intended level cap. Maybe they're just preparing for the inevitable modders?

Honestly, this campaign feels epic level already. When you start with a nautoloid, fleets of dragon riding Gith, and the assembled forces of Hell itself as the tutorial level, it's kinda hard believe we're talking a level 1-10 campaign. But then Decent into Avernus starts low level, too, so I don't know.

[Cespenar]

Supposedly not, they only recently admitted they might be going over level 10, which had been the intended level cap. Maybe they're just preparing for the inevitable modders?

Honestly, this campaign feels epic level already. When you start with a nautoloid, fleets of dragon riding Gith, and the assembled forces of Hell itself as the tutorial level, it's kinda hard believe we're talking a level 1-10 campaign. But then Decent into Avernus starts low level, too, so I don't know.

That has been a staple of 5e so far, I assume, due to simple marketing decisions. "We want to showcase all of D&D's signature themes/monsters, but we also want it to be accessible for newcomers, so, lower levels."

Look at the 5e campaigns: Underdark (with Demon Lords?) at level 1, Ravenloft at level 1, dragons, elementals, etc.