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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter Five
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    Interesting thoughts on Kestrel. I personally was less certain waffling back and forth on whether or not he was hiding something or was just a very athletics and martial arts focused introvert, because its not as if someone who spends a lot of time on exercise and being fit would care much for videogames, especially if he is like me and doesn't really care for going to anything that doesn't concern my interests.

    meanwhile Ella is ace. nice to see. also keeps this from becoming romantically complicated. Verde and Ella quite deftly eliminate themselves from any romance with Rei while remaining friends her early on, thus clearly establishing their role and relationship to her: they are her friends. not her love interests. and that? is perfectly fine.

    and yes, Ella is established as a foil for Kestrel early on. right off the bat, while both are exchange students, Ella answers directly and is up front about who she is and where she is from, as well being direct about date-ability, but being afraid of getting into danger. while Kestrel is closed off and non-committal, and not afraid of getting a near a fight or danger at all.

    as for chapter six....I'll have more things to talk about for certain. cause that is when it starts getting real interesting.
    Spoiler: Chapter Five... The shippening
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    Since the topic of romance has come up, I guess it's time to discuss shipping!

    Generally speaking, I'm not much of a fan of shipping. I don't engage with it much myself, though I find the practice itself weirdly intriguing. In the case of Rei's relationship with Verde and Ella... yeah, it's not likely to ever take a romantic turn. That said, there's a real value and emotional satisfaction that comes from having good friends which I feel is underrepresented in fiction. Looking at Verde in specific, it's clear that she does not have romantic feelings for Rei. Does she care about Rei though? Does she worry about Rei's well-being? Yes, absolutely. What's more, I believe these feelings are returned by Rei. Ella's still pretty new to the friend group, but as direct and forthcoming as she is, she might develop a similar platonic bond that Verde and Rei share.

    To sum up, as much as media fans hype romance, platonic bonds are awesome.

    I wasn't really paying attention to the fact that Kestrel and Ella are deliberate foils for one another, but I suppose it's true. This is true in another way as well-- Kestrel is willing to get into fights, but doesn't make himself available socially. Ella doesn't want to fight but socially is very available. Ironically this usually means that when Verde and Rei encounter trouble, they got Ella with them, but Kestrel is nowhere to be found.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter Five... The shippening
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    Ironically this usually means that when Verde and Rei encounter trouble, they got Ella with them, but Kestrel is nowhere to be found.
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    I mean... that's just good character development moments. Where's the fun in throwing people at stuff that doesn't put them out of their comfort zone?

    (Okay, fair, it can be nicer to let people show off, but... it doesn't tend to make them grow. Use in moderation. )

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Spoiler: Chapter 5
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    Since we're at the part where Ella says she's ace I'm going to share a thought another person shared with me.

    I forget the specific way she phrased it but basically; Ella wearing this shirt.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2020-06-23 at 05:06 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by DataNinja View Post
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    I mean... that's just good character development moments. Where's the fun in throwing people at stuff that doesn't put them out of their comfort zone?

    (Okay, fair, it can be nicer to let people show off, but... it doesn't tend to make them grow. Use in moderation. )
    Spoiler: Chapter Five character beats
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    This ends up saying a bit about Ella as a character as well. Ella might not do well in dangerous situations, she might be uncomfortable with them but she'll follow her friends into them. Say what you will about Ella, but she's not a coward.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter 5
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    Since we're at the part where Ella says she's ace I'm going to share a thought another person shared with me.

    I forget the specific way she phrased it but basically; Ella wearing this shirt.
    Ella does seem to love snacks.
    Last edited by The Fury; 2020-06-23 at 05:12 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    I'm not gonna point them out yet obviously but I want all of you to know I'm definitely saving some of what you say For Later, For Fun.

    God this is exciting for me. I hope everyone else is enjoying.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Another day, another chapter! This time things get rough!

    Spoiler: Chapter Six
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    Our chapter opens with Rei waiting outside the burnt club, wondering where Kestrel is and momentarily daydreaming about him rescuing her from unspecified threat. Until three teenage boys about her age discussing something snap her out of her reverie. As it happens, these three ruffians are planning on breaking into the dance club to steal anything valuable that might have survived the fire. Rei's having none of that, especially since she doesn't seem to think that an encounter between these three and Gamma would go well. Her go-to is to threaten to call the cops-- which y'know, not a bad plan. Except again, the only reason she's at the dance club in the first place is to retrieve her phone. The ruffians call her bluff and attack her. Rei makes an effort to escape, but is caught and the ruffians threaten to mug her. Rei for her part, assumes a fighting stance, (she had mentioned previously that she'd taken boxing classes,) and prepares to defend herself.

    Rei exchanges a few blows with one of theses randos, around this time Kestrel chooses to show up wielding a length of metal pipe. Now, if you've ever seen a fist fight or been involved in one, it's not as fun or exciting as action films might lead you to believe. The brawl between Rei and Kestrel against the three ruffians is purposefully ugly. There's the sickening feeling of cartilage cracking, blocking strikes still hurts, punches that connect still hurt your hands, and dizziness from Rei getting hit in the face. Of our two protagonists, Rei seems to get the worst of it while our would-be muggers get bludgeoned with the pipe, but are able to escape. Kestrel is for the most part unscathed. It's worth noting that while Rei is understandably kind of disturbed by what happened, Kestrel is not. He even comments that he thought that he'd have to fight all three on his own.

    Rei However is still nursing her crush on Kestrel and seems more worried that he might think she's weird or something.

    Eventually Rei makes it home, banged-up, with a black eye and a tissue jammed up her nose. For a loving parent like Aria... this is something of a shock. The two hug it out and Rei comes clean about what happened. Mostly. Rei does admit how she got into a fight, that she was there to meet Kestrel, and that she lost her phone. She still leaves out the fact that she went into the burnt out dance club, Gamma and Red Crystal. Aria is fairly understanding but still puts her foot down. Rei is no longer allowed to play games after school, but she's still allowed to go to her tournament. Rei is also given an 8:00 curfew. Despite this, Aria still pretty clearly feels a sense of parental pride since Rei apparently won her fight.

    Being as how Rei is not allowed to play games, she spends her time before bed doing searches on the internet. Attempts at learning more about Gamma and Red Crystal turn up nothing, but searching for "mancer"...She comes across a site which looks dubious at first, seemingly hosting photos made to look like magic was happening. Even giggling to herself that she and Verde used to make images like this when they were thirteen... At least until one image of a woman seemingly controlling tree branches to defend herself from a Red Crystal creature. At this point, it seems like mancers are in fact real, and Rei concludes that she herself is a pyromancer.

    Closing thoughts-- I've been giving Kestrel a bit of side-eye for a while now, and the way violence is depicted here only makes him seem more suspect to me. Kestrel seems to be a martial arts enthusiast, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that he likes fighting. taken a step further, it seems like he enjoys violence. Not just the controlled competitive sports atmosphere that you get practicing martial arts. Not only that, Rei and the three ruffians that she fights don't go for weapons, he does. He also seems eerily calm about what Rei seems to consider a pretty horrible experience. Whether Kestrel is a vicious thug or a misunderstood bad boy remains to be seen, but we'll get there.

    I also got to give props for verisimilitude here. hitting something with your fist is usually pretty unpleasant, especially when you consider that hands are made of relatively small bones and are comparatively delicate. I've mentioned before that I have a metal plate in my right hand from when I fractured a metacarpal. Rei notes that her hands still hurt after her fight, and that's some good attention to detail. Hopefully she doesn't need a metal plate later on.


    Next time is Chapter Seven... Something something... eleven? Sorry, I'm tired.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

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    Yeah, the combat in this is intentionally visceral and portrayed without embellishments. really makes it clear what kind of world this is, and that despite Rei's fighting capabilities and magic she isn't even an action hero. it really feels as Rei could die and she gets hurt despite winning. it only further distances it from looking like a harry potter thing, and at the same time I can't really file this under something more like Dresden Files because I'm pretty it still does some combat embellishments to make it more actiony despite its down to earth urban fantasy style? hm.

    Yeah, Aria good parent, both concerned and proud that her child won a fight with criminals.

    of course I just have to remark: where does Kestrel get the pipe, I wonder? he must be like shirou emiya, throwing himself into danger to save others with pipes he finds to help repair stuff.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter Six
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    Yeah, the combat in this is intentionally visceral and portrayed without embellishments. really makes it clear what kind of world this is, and that despite Rei's fighting capabilities and magic she isn't even an action hero. it really feels as Rei could die and she gets hurt despite winning. it only further distances it from looking like a harry potter thing, and at the same time I can't really file this under something more like Dresden Files because I'm pretty it still does some combat embellishments to make it more actiony despite its down to earth urban fantasy style? hm.

    Yeah, Aria good parent, both concerned and proud that her child won a fight with criminals.

    of course I just have to remark: where does Kestrel get the pipe, I wonder? he must be like shirou emiya, throwing himself into danger to save others with pipes he finds to help repair stuff.
    Spoiler: Chapter Six
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    I would assume that Kestrel probably found the pipe just lying around. The neighborhood is pretty run down and it doesn't seem far-fetched that there might be a discarded length of pipe sitting in an alley somewhere.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter Six
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    I would assume that Kestrel probably found the pipe just lying around. The neighborhood is pretty run down and it doesn't seem far-fetched that there might be a discarded length of pipe sitting in an alley somewhere.
    Spoiler: Chapter Six
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    A reasonable conclusion to be sure. Can't argue with that logic!
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Just a minor aside, it's been great discussing this book with all of you. Now let's dig into chapter seven.

    Spoiler: Chapter Seven
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    Our chapter opens with Rei having breakfast and still recovering from her fight as Aria treats her bruises. More importantly today is the day of the tournament and Rei wants to look cool. So she asks Aria if they have any "cool jackets" and rummages through the coat closet to find one. As much as I'd like to report that Rei found a denim trucker jacket with some gnarly fades and tiger on the back, she mostly comes up empty handed. Mostly. While she's not able to find a suitable jacket, she finds a mask. One that covers the entire face, seems padded, and has heavy straps, suggesting that it's some kind of protective gear. It's featureless, except for a cartoon skull painted on the front. While Aria plays it off pretty casually, Rei seems to think Aria might be hiding something. Indeed, Aria's explanation, that it was sort of a joke gift to her from her late husband, seems odd-- from how the mask is described it doesn't sound like something that could be easily purchased at a local costume store. Aria allows Rei to try the mask on though, since it is pretty cool. Rei immediately notices a few things-- despite having no eyeholes, the mask is fairly easy to see out of. Secondly, this mask has not been worn in a while. Third... the inside smells like blood. Unfortunately for now, Aria doesn't seem to be in a mood for answering questions and takes her mask back. So it's off to the tournament for Rei.

    Rei makes her way to the game store/arcade where the tournament is being held, a place called "Neon City." Which, honestly... cool name. I'd feel a little cooler just saying that I'm going somewhere called "Neon City," y'know? Like, "Hey The Fury! Haven't seen you in a minute. What's going on?"
    "Not much. Just headin' over to Neon City. As I do."
    Anyway, Rei meets Verde and Ella in front of Neon City who have shown up to cheer their friend on, they even brought a video camera to preserve this moment for posterity. As the girls are getting ready for the tournament, they're surprised at one of the participants-- Chloe, the mean girl from earlier. What's sort of odd is that Chloe is not dressed how she would be normally, even wearing sunglasses, suggesting that she might be making an effort to not be recognized. Rei and the others naturally want to know what the heck, so confront her. For her part Chloe is playing up her typical mean girl shtick and is a total brat. Going so far as to get under Rei's skin about Kestrel. Rei momentarily considers trying to set Chloe on fire with her pyromancy.
    Still, Chloe's presence raises some questions, since as Rei and probably Verde note, Chloe never seemed interested in video games at all. Those questions will have to wait though, since Chloe suggests a wager with Rei. If Rei wins, she'll get to know what Chloe's damn problem is and Chloe will leaver her alone. If Chloe wins Rei will hand out with her exclusively for a week. Which seems like an odd request from what's basically a schoolyard bully, but Rei assumes that Chloe wants her to be her servant for a week.

    Both Chloe and Rei make it to the final match and are paired against one another. As it happens, Chloe is surprisingly good at this. It's a detail that I glossed over previously but these two girls had been friends before, and it's apparently through their friendship that Chloe picked up her video game skills. As the two get ready for their match, Rei recalls a moment she had with Chloe. The two of them playing games together five years ago. Laughing, having fun. Unfortunately, the outcome of the match will have to wait until the next chapter.

    So for some final thoughts, this seems like the best opportunity to discuss Chloe. While she was introduced pretty early on, there seemed little to talk about with regards to her. Compared to mysterious men lurking in abandoned buildings, Rei's fledgling pyromancy and other craziness, a typical high school mean girl seemed more annoying than actually threatening. Now there's actual questions to ask about her here. Why would she even be interested in showing up Rei at a video game tournament? It wouldn't do anything for her social standing at school. If anything, her dressing differently and putting on sunglasses seems to suggest that it might hurt her reputation. It just seems really unlikely that she would want this victory over Rei to just lord over her. If Chloe does want Rei to be her servant for a week, as Rei believes, she certainly phrased her request in a weird way. When asked what she wants from Rei she says this, "...when I win, I want you. You hang out with me, and only me, for a week."
    Rather than a servant, I think that Chloe, while too proud to admit it, greatly misses the friendship that she had with Rei and is trying a scheme to get it back or otherwise rekindle it. If this is true... Aw, Chloe... Maybe talk it out next time, yeah?

    In the meantime, Aria the loving single mother seems to be hiding something. What is it?We'll just have to wait and see.


    Next time is Chapter Eight. I'll try to not be late!
    Last edited by The Fury; 2020-06-25 at 03:18 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Spoiler: Chapter Seven
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    hehehehhehehhaahahahaa....

    Around Chapter 7 or 8 is when I started shipping ChloexRei. Screw Kestral, he is too perfect to be real. Boo Kestral, he should die for my ship, he is totally a Death Eater booo.

    I can't explain why since most of evidence for my reasoning isn't actually reveled until the next chapter, thought it was going to be this chapter, but whatevs. but I can note that Rei is noted to have a particularly aggressive and fast fighting style, basically she plays rushdown, and does it really well, well enough to get this far in a fighting game tournament, speaking a lot about her reflexes and how much time she spends on this to get it right. Chloe isn't even surprised by Rei getting there, suggesting she knows Rei enough that she'd get this far. a lot of chapter reminds me of watching people play Dragonball FighterZ.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Aah, chapter 7. An interesting shift of things~
    Spoiler: Chapter 7
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    Seeing all of you go over this scene and theorizing what the situation is is really enjoyable! It's neat to see what gets seen by whom, what gets picked up and what goes by unnoticed. I had an admonishment about who starts the bet here earlier but OOPS I was wrong please drag me, Zodi, the author, for being unable to remember her whole story 100%.

    I've always considered Knight of the Stars to be a more Guilty Gear style game, especially because DBFZ wasn't out yet when I was writing it. That's a good comparison though.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2020-06-25 at 04:17 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter Seven
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    hehehehhehehhaahahahaa....

    Around Chapter 7 or 8 is when I started shipping ChloexRei. Screw Kestral, he is too perfect to be real. Boo Kestral, he should die for my ship, he is totally a Death Eater booo.

    I can't explain why since most of evidence for my reasoning isn't actually reveled until the next chapter, thought it was going to be this chapter, but whatevs. but I can note that Rei is noted to have a particularly aggressive and fast fighting style, basically she plays rushdown, and does it really well, well enough to get this far in a fighting game tournament, speaking a lot about her reflexes and how much time she spends on this to get it right. Chloe isn't even surprised by Rei getting there, suggesting she knows Rei enough that she'd get this far. a lot of chapter reminds me of watching people play Dragonball FighterZ.
    Spoiler: Chapter Seven... Did someone say "shipping?"
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    I've not made it much of a secret that i'm not sure how trustworthy Kestrel is as a character. As such, I'm not super on board with the Kestrel/Rei ship anyway.

    A Chloe/Rei ship though? Uhh... As of right now, I don't know a whole lot about Chloe. She seems more forthcoming than Kestrel, but that isn't saying much. That said, while we know that she was friends with Rei before, it's not clear what happened to break their friendship apart. Whatever it is, I suspect that Chloe regrets it. Whether Chloe just wants her friend back or if she wants something... less platonic from Rei remains to be seen. Though she did say to Rei, "I want you."


    Now, let's dig into Chapter Eight!

    Spoiler: Chapter Eight
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    The final match of the tournament between Chloe and Rei is an intense one. While Rei favors a knight character with an aggressive attack style, Chloe prefers a mage character that focuses more on strategy and defense. Things soon heat up during the final round. Literally. Rei accidently uses her pyromancy to melt her controller. Fortunately the judges assume that the controller's battery pack had overheated. Even though this seems like an odd way for a battery pack to fail, which seems more plausible? A faulty battery overheating so badly that a controller melted, or that this girl can generate intense heat with her hands? Anyway, a break is called until a suitable replacement controller can be found and the round can be reset. This is enough to get Chloe to lose her flow and Rei beats her pretty handily.
    While bitter, Chloe is mostly a good sport about losing. As for her end of the bet... she did promise to let Rei know "what [her] problem is." Unfortunately that'll have to wait since she says that she doesn't want to talk about it here. Chloe then puts her shades back on and quietly slips out, appearing rather sad. Rei is given her prize-- a one hundred dollar coupon for the game store.

    Verde and Ella meet Rei and congratulate her on her win. Rei then comes clean about her fight with the ruffians outside the dance club. This gets Ella somewhat frantic, and Rei's comment that she's hardly injured does little to reassure her. While Rei does say that Kestrel came to her rescue, she does wisely and deliberately omit the detail of Kestrel with a bloody length of pipe. For her part, Verde thinks that Kestrel should have seen Rei home. I guess Verde has Kestrel pegged for a clueless dolt. Ella remains upset that Rei would do something so reckless. After reassuring her friends that she won't do anything like that again, Rei excuses herself to go to the bathroom. Then runs off to Gold Row, the sketchy neighborhood with the burnt dance club.

    Oh, Rei... This time, she doesn't play around and goes straight into the club and starts calling for Gamma. Gamma largely hasn't moved, but is recovering from his injuries. Rei is finally able to recover her phone, that's the good news. The bad news is that it's badly damaged and completely unusable. Rei, takes it largely in stride but begins to ramble about life to Gamma. To his credit, Gamma doesn't seem to mind. It's possible that he might just be grateful to have someone to talk to. Rei goes on about what's been happening, how her life has been turned upside down. Her crush on Kestrel, her fight, her tournament and Chloe... I wanted to take a moment with Chloe, since I had some comments about her earlier. As mentioned, Chloe and Rei's friendship fell apart. We don't really know what happened between them, Rei herself doesn't really know either. While this doesn't seem like much, it does imply that their falling out was not mutual.

    Rei also takes the opportunity to ask Gamma about mancers, specifically if she's one is he one too? While Gamma is fine with listening, he's not much for sharing information. Claiming that Rei is not a mancer, and that pain dulled had dulled his senses, making him mistake her for one. As to whether or not Gamma is a mancer... that's a resounding "none of your business." Gamma does mention that there is another mancer out there-- his enemy.

    Rei protests that she thinks that she is a mancer, she has been reading up and her weirder experiences do seem to line up with being a pyromancer. Unfortunately the two are interrupted by Verde and Ella climbing in through the window. Gamma responds to the intrusion by conjuring clawed hands out of shadow! Holy smokes! He must be a mancer, right?

    For her part, Rei leaps into action. Putting herself between the shadow hands and her friends, she manifests fire around her right hand. Actual. Fire. This would be the first time that it's not just accidental puffs, sparks or melting a video game controller. If Rei isn't a pyromancer I don't know what is!
    Last edited by The Fury; 2020-06-26 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

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    My reasoning for the Chloe/Rei ship is Chloe knew enough about Rei to specifically practice the fighter to counter her even though they hadn't been on positive terms for five years, that isn't normal, as well drop everything to specifically compete to the point of facing her, is so such an anime rival love thing I don't see how could be anything else.

    like its specific how Chloe has the exact fighter to counter Rei, and has apparently been practicing it enough to keep up with Rei since they were 12 despite not being friends for five years. she'd have to know that Rei wouldn't pick another main, as well as how to play an arguably harder character to master than a rushdown character, because a tricky traps and zoner type of fighter requires you to do more than rush in and just attack a lot. like how much has Chloe been keeping up with Rei's life to know this and be so good at her counter? sure the games online so its probably that, but still it implies some level of following along.

    As for Kestrel, yeah he keeps striking all the clueless male love interest flags and its just somewhere between uninteresting and annoying, also Rei's attraction to him feels very shallow. because it is: she doesn't know a thing about him she's just crushing.

    as for plausibility....well, people normally assume magic isn't real in modern times. so they naturally assume that a girl can't generate heat from their hands, because clearly most girls cannot. so once the impossible is eliminated, whatever is remaining no matter how implausible and improbable must be true. rather than magic being real, which would have a lot of implications about physics and how it would change our models of the world.

    speaking of which, Gamma manipulates shadows. looking at this phenomenon alone would generate the implication that shadows are real actual things that can be manipulated towards various ends, and not just the absence of light. it means you have to rethink what matter, physicality and realness are from the ground up, and if the state of shadows something that Gamma turns on and off to be real/not real, that generates even more implications that there is some function capable of turning absences of light into real matter manipulable by one's mind which means a 0 = 1 as we currently understand it, and that what we thought was a zero, isn't a zero anymore, but a different kind of 1, like matter and energy. Rei's magic at least is just an implausible manipulation of heat.
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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

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    I forgot to say it, but a conversation springing up about the metaphysics about how some of the magic and mancies of my setting is... the exact sort of thing I want to see.

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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter 8
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    I forgot to say it, but a conversation springing up about the metaphysics about how some of the magic and mancies of my setting is... the exact sort of thing I want to see.
    Spoiler: Chapter 8
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    Do you want me to ask rater202 to read this so that he and I can have a long-winded metaphysics conversation about it? I guarantee once you get me and him going we can have long metaphysical discussions about anything, we do so with Naruto metaphysics sometimes. it will work to generate such a discussion, as long as you can bear him inevitably wanting to try and game the system so he can combine all the mancies into one transhuman being and/or become god.

    failing that, I will talk about the metaphysics as it goes along and things come up. I just haven't already because while I'm pretty sure the basic explanation is coming soon so I can open up on that and really start going, out of respect to this being Fury's thread and their rules about it.

    but I can theorize the shadow magic, because thats shown and known and its more interesting than the fire. because fire is heat and is a known property of our universe, very well known to the point where if a hyper-advanced sci-fi civilization made tech so you can do pyromancy with just your hands, I'd find it believable to a degree.

    but shadows on the other hand isn't something you can manipulate into solid matter no matter how much nanobot/femtobot handwaves you use. its existence solidly changes the very nature of physical reality as we know it. it means on some level, shadows are real, that darkness is a physical thing, and therefore outside the realm of even soft-sci-fi in my mind. therefore what does it mean if shadows are real? well shadows are just little patches of darkness, and darkness is on every planet in the universe in some manner, because there is always the night side. so it depends on whether Gamma can manipulate darkness at night, because if he can do that:

    1. that implies darkness in general is some force or matter undifferentiated from shadow that spontaneously generates whenever light is not around, always coming back the instant there is no light. meaning the fantasy darkness is just as fast as light at least at coming into existence but is incredibly fragile to being hit by photons specifically at some quantum level or something. that these "umbrons" simply can't exist when light specifically observes it. however one wonders if vacuums truly exist in such physics if both light and darkness are wave-particles that fill everything up one way or another.

    thus meaning if there is no such thing as a vacuum, how does space work? these umbrons would fill up everything that isn't light or matter. and unfortunately, wave-particles aren't...truly massless. they have a very small amount of mass, but they still exist, they're not quarks and would add up. thus an umbron would have effects on physics as we know it, the effects could be anything from vacuums not existing and outer space instead being like the luminiferous ether, or it being more like the dark matter theories scientists throw around in modern times. we don't know, because this stuff isn't figured out even by big brain scientists I don't even come close to in my education.

    2. the other possibility is, if Gamma like some other shadow users in fiction can only manipulate shadows with an explicit light source to come from like the sun or a lightbulb, and can't use his power in complete darkness because that somehow doesn't count, then that implies its more about one's mind and what someone THINKS is a shadow, because shade of a tree, a shadow, and night aren't really different in any way, they're all darkness and an absence of light, so I suspect such limitations are more to make sure the person doesn't become a god at night. and that mancies are more about what people think is this or that than a real thing. that they can only manipulate the archetypal idea of what a shadow as defined by the collective human consciousness with the rest of the world works as normal, thus the shadow manipulation being more limited than it would be otherwise and the magic being more about specific reality warping thing conjuring fantasy solid shadows from nothing than something wider.

    3. the third possibility is that the scientists are completely wrong, the universe isn't material and is just a bunch of ideas. and that Gamma just somehow can tap into the idea of shadows to do stuff because all the world is one big shared dream, with one big dreamer defining the universal rules of everything to make everything look like our own reality. with everything potentially running on hindu/gnostic mythology/mage the awakening rules, thus the biggest dreamer is evil thus seek enlightenment, thus reach heaven through violence, kill god, thus make better dream where no suffering exists.

    there might be other possibilities. but those are the three I can honestly think of right now.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Those are all actually VERY fascinating ideas, and while I won't comment on them directly I will note that I've had very good reactions to what you've written.

    As for your question; absolutely get more people to read my book what are you even talking about. The answer to that question is always yes.

    I imagine Fury will post the shift into Chapter 9 tomorrow, but there's no rush

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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    So yes, this looks really interesting. I'm on a limited book budget but depending on how this goes I'm definitely considering picking it up.

    Luckily, I don't much mind spoilers.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I'm actually going to bring this up because it is amusing to me specifically; Knights of the Stars is not a Star Wars reference, it is a Saint Seiya (or, in english, Knights of the Zodiac) reference. LEO FANTASY! SAINT SEIYA~. Suffice to say, this will get elaborated on later to be made clearer, so I don't fault you for thinking that. It's interesting a read~

    also, happy birthday Raziere! I hope you have a good one, and I hope the book serves you well.
    Ah, my first Shonene anime that wasn't Dragon Ball. Also, the first time I ever heard the song "I Ran" becuase for some reason it was easier to have Bowling For Soup sing someone else's song than to translate the lyrics of Pegasus Fantasy into english.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Another day, another chapter! This time things get rough!

    Spoiler: Chapter Six
    Show
    Rei is no longer allowed to play games after school, but she's still allowed to go to her tournament.
    Spoiler: Chapter 6
    Show
    This is weird to me. Unless the tounrment is literally the next day(is it?), this means that the punishment is taking away the chance to practice for the Tounrmenet.

    Either Aria doesn't understand how videogames work("Flash back to being told to turn off my game and go to bed, telling them that I can't turn it off until I get to a save point and that'll take a little bit becuase I'm in the middle of a boss fight, and then two minute later I'm getting yelled at for still playing the game ensue") or its a malicious attempt to make Rei lose the tournament as the real punishment.

    Or the Tourmenet is the next day. I don't know from that information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere
    Do you want me to ask rater202 to read this so that he and I can have a long-winded metaphysics conversation about it? I guarantee once you get me and him going we can have long metaphysical discussions about anything, we do so with Naruto metaphysics sometimes. it will work to generate such a discussion, as long as you can bear him inevitably wanting to try and game the system so he can combine all the mancies into one transhuman being and/or become god.
    Oh come on, I'm not that bad. I'd merely try to achieve immortality.
    Spoiler: Only up to what's covered
    Show
    Or find a way to eat monsters to gain their power.


    More seriously, I'm not sure if I'll be able to pick the book up so unless it gets a really in-depth TVtropes pages, chances are I won't be much good in terms of metaphysics discussion.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2020-06-28 at 02:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    So yes, this looks really interesting. I'm on a limited book budget but depending on how this goes I'm definitely considering picking it up.

    Luckily, I don't much mind spoilers.
    Ah, my first Shonene anime that wasn't Dragon Ball. Also, the first time I ever heard the song "I Ran" becuase for some reason it was easier to have Bowling For Soup sing someone else's song than to translate the lyrics of Pegasus Fantasy into english.

    Spoiler: Chapter 6
    Show
    This is weird to me. Unless the tounrment is literally the next day(is it?), this means that the punishment is taking away the chance to practice for the Tounrmenet.

    Either Aria doesn't understand how videogames work("Flash back to being told to turn off my game and go to bed, telling them that I can't turn it off until I get to a save point and that'll take a little bit becuase I'm in the middle of a boss fight, and then two minute later I'm getting yelled at for still playing the game ensue") or its a malicious attempt to make Rei lose the tournament as the real punishment.

    Or the Tourmenet is the next day. I don't know from that information.



    Oh come on, I'm not that bad. I'd merely try to achieve immortality.
    Spoiler: Only up to what's covered
    Show
    Or find a way to eat monsters to gain their power.


    More seriously, I'm not sure if I'll be able to pick the book up so unless it gets a really in-depth TVtropes pages, chances are I won't be much good in terms of metaphysics discussion.
    Well, if you do pick it up I hope you enjoy. I feel like it'll be worth the budget . And while Fury's summeries are very good and very insightful and quite well written, they don't quite do it 100% justice.

    Spoiler: Chapter 6
    Show

    Yeah it was the next day coming. Like I said above =p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Spoiler: Chapter 8
    Show

    Do you want me to ask rater202 to read this so that he and I can have a long-winded metaphysics conversation about it? I guarantee once you get me and him going we can have long metaphysical discussions about anything, we do so with Naruto metaphysics sometimes. it will work to generate such a discussion, as long as you can bear him inevitably wanting to try and game the system so he can combine all the mancies into one transhuman being and/or become god.

    failing that, I will talk about the metaphysics as it goes along and things come up. I just haven't already because while I'm pretty sure the basic explanation is coming soon so I can open up on that and really start going, out of respect to this being Fury's thread and their rules about it.

    but I can theorize the shadow magic, because thats shown and known and its more interesting than the fire. because fire is heat and is a known property of our universe, very well known to the point where if a hyper-advanced sci-fi civilization made tech so you can do pyromancy with just your hands, I'd find it believable to a degree.

    but shadows on the other hand isn't something you can manipulate into solid matter no matter how much nanobot/femtobot handwaves you use. its existence solidly changes the very nature of physical reality as we know it. it means on some level, shadows are real, that darkness is a physical thing, and therefore outside the realm of even soft-sci-fi in my mind. therefore what does it mean if shadows are real? well shadows are just little patches of darkness, and darkness is on every planet in the universe in some manner, because there is always the night side. so it depends on whether Gamma can manipulate darkness at night, because if he can do that:

    1. that implies darkness in general is some force or matter undifferentiated from shadow that spontaneously generates whenever light is not around, always coming back the instant there is no light. meaning the fantasy darkness is just as fast as light at least at coming into existence but is incredibly fragile to being hit by photons specifically at some quantum level or something. that these "umbrons" simply can't exist when light specifically observes it. however one wonders if vacuums truly exist in such physics if both light and darkness are wave-particles that fill everything up one way or another.

    thus meaning if there is no such thing as a vacuum, how does space work? these umbrons would fill up everything that isn't light or matter. and unfortunately, wave-particles aren't...truly massless. they have a very small amount of mass, but they still exist, they're not quarks and would add up. thus an umbron would have effects on physics as we know it, the effects could be anything from vacuums not existing and outer space instead being like the luminiferous ether, or it being more like the dark matter theories scientists throw around in modern times. we don't know, because this stuff isn't figured out even by big brain scientists I don't even come close to in my education.

    2. the other possibility is, if Gamma like some other shadow users in fiction can only manipulate shadows with an explicit light source to come from like the sun or a lightbulb, and can't use his power in complete darkness because that somehow doesn't count, then that implies its more about one's mind and what someone THINKS is a shadow, because shade of a tree, a shadow, and night aren't really different in any way, they're all darkness and an absence of light, so I suspect such limitations are more to make sure the person doesn't become a god at night. and that mancies are more about what people think is this or that than a real thing. that they can only manipulate the archetypal idea of what a shadow as defined by the collective human consciousness with the rest of the world works as normal, thus the shadow manipulation being more limited than it would be otherwise and the magic being more about specific reality warping thing conjuring fantasy solid shadows from nothing than something wider.

    3. the third possibility is that the scientists are completely wrong, the universe isn't material and is just a bunch of ideas. and that Gamma just somehow can tap into the idea of shadows to do stuff because all the world is one big shared dream, with one big dreamer defining the universal rules of everything to make everything look like our own reality. with everything potentially running on hindu/gnostic mythology/mage the awakening rules, thus the biggest dreamer is evil thus seek enlightenment, thus reach heaven through violence, kill god, thus make better dream where no suffering exists.

    there might be other possibilities. but those are the three I can honestly think of right now.
    Spoiler: Thoughts on magic system Mechanics
    Show
    If we go by darkness being a physical substance that exists, but is not equal to light (since you don't have complete nullification), what if there exists a third "neutral" luminous particle (penumbrons is the only name I got right now) that could pair well with either protons or umbrons. However, Gamma can only generate and manipulate umbrons, so his shadows dissipate when he isn't driving them. Natural light sources release essentially light "isotopes" that contain a certain amount of penumbrons, so that they can break up Gamma's shadows easily. A light mancer would basically boil down to an effort of stamina. Fire arguably can be better, as one can use natural sources as a base to be more efficient (burn stamina to shape/accelerate a fire, but rely on fuel).


    Further musing on the "neutral light particle", could that be the end result of entropy? As in even after everything decays down into electromagnetic waves, these waves then react with various levels of umbrons and result in the super stable penumbrons? This would require more thoughts on naming conventions that I would have to muse on for a bit.

    EDIT: Some musings (and food) later...

    So to expand on trying to fit umbrons into a model (that will likely be picked apart easily).

    Think of the matter-verse (where we have light, heat , and energy forming matter) where shadows would be formed as the absence of light, cold as the absence of heat etc. vacuum as the absence of matter. We then have the opposite (umbrons being an opposite of heat and ling electro magnetic radiation and dark matter as the opposite of matter).

    Fun fact: This means that Gamma can wield shadow lasers.

    Picture the total amount of dark matter as a tub of water. The creation of the known universe (as in all matter) is akin to taking a sponge, compacting in as small as possible, then placing it in the tub. The expansion of the sponge draws in water, akin to the expansion of this universe means that umbrons and dark matter gets drawn into the universe. Annihilation, instead of just releasing energy in this case, releases umbrons and photons. Over time photons and umbrons interacting will cancel each other out (think of destructive wave interference). The created entrons are just a third particle that serves as additional matter that serves a barrier that slows down complete Annihilation of the universe. If we think if the sponge in a tub of water, Annihilation would mean that the sponge would dissolve over time. The formation of a neutral particle is like the sponge forming a protective coating that would slow down the reaction. The end result would be that everything would be composed of an entron structure.

    What this paints in my head is a something akin to the old theory of crystal spheres, as the greatest concentration of entrons would be at the barrier between the universe and outside dark matter (the surface of the sponge and the water).

    To finish this ramble, what if the presence of matter or anti matter on a collection of entrons forces a slight gradient where the opposite (anti matter to matter, matter to antimatter) is generated on the opposite side of the entron cluster. I am basically basing this on how electrons move in the presence of a charged body. So a large cluster of entrons surrounded by antimatter would generate matter in it's center which would push out. Viola, the Big Bang!

    I hope these musing are not too disorienting for anyone else to follow. I look forward to what else people come up with in trying to fit shadow magic in.
    Last edited by Mith; 2020-06-28 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Well, if you do pick it up I hope you enjoy. I feel like it'll be worth the budget . And while Fury's summeries are very good and very insightful and quite well written, they don't quite do it 100% justice.
    Well, no. Of course not. Even the best of recaps aren't quite the same as reading the original text. I'll admit that I gloss over certain details for the sake of brevity as well. So... sorry?

    Also, Rater-- glad to have you here.

    Chapter 9 is coming. I'm taking a little bit of a mental health break though. Not being quite myself, I worry that if I try to type up a recap now, it won't be up to par. And for that I'm sorry.
    Last edited by The Fury; 2020-06-29 at 06:28 PM.

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    Default Re: The Fury's Book Club-- Reading Cursed World: Initial Sparks

    No need to apologize, for EITHER point. You're doing a fantastic job of this, I wouldn't change it for the world. If you need your rest, rest, it is important!

    Spoiler: Metaphysics talk
    Show
    Incidentally all this talk o metaphysical umbrons made me realize something rather silly; why again did I not call it Umbramancy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: Metaphysics talk
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    Incidentally all this talk o metaphysical umbrons made me realize something rather silly; why again did I not call it Umbramancy?
    Spoiler: Metaphysics talk
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    I think we were too distracted by trying to decide between Hydromancy and Aquamancy.

    More seriously, I feel like Umbra speaks more towards the absence of something - in this case light, while Shadows feel more like they're addressing the subject more. Umbramancy feels like a subset of light, while Shadowmancy is... well, direct of what the magic is. I know that they mean essentially the same thing, (well, shadows can also be a penumbra, too,) but, to me, an Umbramancer would be using magic to remove light, not to control shadow. If that makes any sense. It does in my head, at least.

    Tldr: Umbra brings to mind more the object casting the shadow (especially because it's often used most casually in an eclipse scenario), more than the shadow itself.

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    Spoiler: Metaphysics
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    Sciomancy, from the Greek Skia(Shadow) is a form of divination based on shadow interpretation... Though it can also be used as a synonym for Necromancy(divination done by communicating ghosts or other spirits of the dead.)

    Sciomancy is sometimes referred to as "Shadowmancy."

    Umbromancy meanwhile tends to refer to divination using shade rather than shadow, which is a subtle distinction.

    The Browser RPG ?AdventureQuest uses "Tenebramancer" for Wizards who specialize in Elemental Darkness, which is manipulating darkness into physical shape which might apply better in case of darkness in general rather than shadows, but I'm pretty sure they're the only people who use that term becuase I don't get crap when I google the term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    To the floor
    Where my other
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    No need to apologize, for EITHER point. You're doing a fantastic job of this, I wouldn't change it for the world. If you need your rest, rest, it is important!

    Spoiler: Metaphysics talk
    Show
    Incidentally all this talk o metaphysical umbrons made me realize something rather silly; why again did I not call it Umbramancy?
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
    Show

    Because most people don't know the word umbra?

    and "collective archetypal idea of shadow" theory is still possible unless the author- YOU- confirm or deny it, not REALLY being a manipulation of darkness but a manipulation of what people think what a shadow specifically is, and not what they think darkness in general is. so it could be a manipulation of the shadows cast by people specifically and not general darkness encompassing night and dark spaces and whatnot that some people don't count as shadows.

    @ Mith:
    That sounds interesting and like you know more about the science about it than me, so.....I'm not sure if I can say anything about it very well? But if Umbrons/ Penumbrons and Entrons led to the universe being cyclical in its Bang's, it would make some stuff work, I guess?

    but thats the sensible stuff, for a wackier theory, maybe Gamma is descended from people with Shadow DNA because his ancestors fell in love with people from a world made of shadows, so his magic in fact opening up invisible portals through shadows to manipulate magical shadows to to do stuff with. would also explain Rei: maybe her dad was a being literally made of magical fire. it would explain why she doesn't have a father: her dad was fire, he had to go back to fire world.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
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    The Browser RPG ?AdventureQuest uses "Tenebramancer" for Wizards who specialize in Elemental Darkness, which is manipulating darkness into physical shape which might apply better in case of darkness in general rather than shadows, but I'm pretty sure they're the only people who use that term becuase I don't get crap when I google the term.
    Spoiler
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    To be fair... a word derived from 'tenebrous' - which has obscure as one of its definitions - only being used in one out-of-the-way place feels... apt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
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    Because most people don't know the word umbra?

    and "collective archetypal idea of shadow" theory is still possible unless the author- YOU- confirm or deny it, not REALLY being a manipulation of darkness but a manipulation of what people think what a shadow specifically is, and not what they think darkness in general is. so it could be a manipulation of the shadows cast by people specifically and not general darkness encompassing night and dark spaces and whatnot that some people don't count as shadows.

    @ Mith:
    That sounds interesting and like you know more about the science about it than me, so.....I'm not sure if I can say anything about it very well? But if Umbrons/ Penumbrons and Entrons led to the universe being cyclical in its Bang's, it would make some stuff work, I guess?

    but thats the sensible stuff, for a wackier theory, maybe Gamma is descended from people with Shadow DNA because his ancestors fell in love with people from a world made of shadows, so his magic in fact opening up invisible portals through shadows to manipulate magical shadows to to do stuff with. would also explain Rei: maybe her dad was a being literally made of magical fire. it would explain why she doesn't have a father: her dad was fire, he had to go back to fire world.
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
    Show
    I think upcoming chapters actually answer some of your questions with regard to how Gamma's shadowmancy works. I'll hold off on saying anything concrete, Word of God style, because I think it's better that way at the moment.

    Not confirming or denying anything, but I will note you've seen at least A in universe photo of him, in chapter like one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
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    Not confirming or denying anything, but I will note you've seen at least A in universe photo of him, in chapter like one.
    Spoiler
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    Supposedly him, at least. Because hero/ines having family not be who they thought never happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
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    I think upcoming chapters actually answer some of your questions with regard to how Gamma's shadowmancy works. I'll hold off on saying anything concrete, Word of God style, because I think it's better that way at the moment.

    Not confirming or denying anything, but I will note you've seen at least A in universe photo of him, in chapter like one.
    Spoiler: Metaphysics
    Show

    Honestly I should probably be rereading the book more, instead of going off memory.

    Yeah you don't want a repeat of what happened with your lets play of custom robo with me accidentally guessing the plot with my TFS-ripoff humor.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Quote Originally Posted by DataNinja View Post
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    Supposedly him, at least. Because hero/ines having family not be who they thought never happens.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Pyromancer Villain: "Your mother never told you what happened to your father."
    Rei: "She told me enough! She told me you killed him!"
    Pyromancer Villain: "No. I am your father."

    ...I apologize if I guess the plot twist in the process of making a joke about that kind of plot twist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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