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  1. - Top - End - #751
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Heh, your group sounds like a lot of fun, if you all roll with this and feel comfortable with where the lines are.
    Oh we're all having a lot of fun. The characters are all on friendly terms so for the most part the Good characters just act as the moral compass so the Inquisitor and the Wizard don't go off too far into the deep end. With varying levels of success but it's still manageable.

    Ironically the bigger argument happened because of my character. I play a Chaotic Good Lizardfolk Barbarian who is generally helpful and friendly but who also sincerely believes that there's nothing wrong with eating the dead (it being canon for lizardfolk that they practice cannibalism). That went on for a while with the other members of the party telling me to knock it off and me pointing out that unless they could actually provide a better argument than 'It's gross' my lizardfolk didn't have much reason to listen.

    Eventually the DM ruled that my lizardfolk could eat the dead without it counting as an Evil act as long as I could reasonably claim that we were in a situation where we had to be careful with our food supplies. Or to put it another way, I couldn't get away with eating corpses willy-nilly. The other players were willing to accept the compromise that my lizardfolk would only eat dead humanoids if starvation was a serious alternative.

    Although I felt a bit unfairly treated when the Inquisitor declared that he'd start attacking my character for behaving like a monster (his background was that he was a monster hunter). He goes out of his way to argue that he's got class features for torturing people for information (i.e. inflicting horrible pain and injury on living folk) but suddenly it's too much when my character munches on corpses which have no feelings or sentience and are thus, logically speaking, incapable of being harmed. I even stated that my lizardfolk didn't kill humanoids just to eat them, he just considered leaving the corpses to rot after they'd already died for other reasons (such as trying to kill us first) a waste.
    Last edited by Worldsong; 2020-07-08 at 11:40 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #752
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    If the other party members are leaving the corpses unattended, then they are being hypocritical.

    Edit: this goes double if they loot the bodies.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-07-08 at 11:52 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #753
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    If the other party members are leaving the corpses unattended, then they are being hypocritical.

    Edit: this goes double if they loot the bodies.
    That was part of my argument. The issue came to a head when we were clearing out a tomb which had been taken over by cultists and my lizardfolk wanted to eat the cultists (after they were dead, obviously). My argument there was that nobody was going to come and tend to the dead cultists: if I didn't eat them the cultists would just rot away and disappear without anyone remembering them or even knowing about them.

    My party argued that in the cultures of humans, dwarves, elves and most other civilized races cannibalism is an abomination, worse than leaving corpses unattended.

    Of course that did result in the clause that I can eat fellow lizardfolk whenever I want without Evil penalties and without my party complaining. Except the Inquisitor possibly. Although that's unlikely to happen given that the DM wasn't even planning to include lizardfolk in the custom setting we're using until I asked whether I could make one.

    After all if I'm forced to respect their culture they also have to respect mine.
    Last edited by Worldsong; 2020-07-08 at 12:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #754
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RatElemental's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Had a homebrewed goblinoid in one of my games with a similarly distasteful culture to most of the PC races. They practiced ancestral worship, and their religious leaders were shamans who had absolutely 0 compunctions about calling on the dead for help and advice, which meant lots of zombies and spirits of the dead around.

    One memorable quote from the game was her telling the human in the party that she found it very shortsighted of him to stop listening to his elders just because they died.

  5. - Top - End - #755
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Had a homebrewed goblinoid in one of my games with a similarly distasteful culture to most of the PC races. They practiced ancestral worship, and their religious leaders were shamans who had absolutely 0 compunctions about calling on the dead for help and advice, which meant lots of zombies and spirits of the dead around.

    One memorable quote from the game was her telling the human in the party that she found it very shortsighted of him to stop listening to his elders just because they died.
    Sounds like fun. My lizardfolk usually says "The dead shall feed the living."

  6. - Top - End - #756
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    That's a quote that deserves to be remembered.

    Shamans are fun in general, just because they are not wizards or wizards-by-another-name.

  7. - Top - End - #757
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Had a homebrewed goblinoid in one of my games with a similarly distasteful culture to most of the PC races. They practiced ancestral worship, and their religious leaders were shamans who had absolutely 0 compunctions about calling on the dead for help and advice, which meant lots of zombies and spirits of the dead around.

    One memorable quote from the game was her telling the human in the party that she found it very shortsighted of him to stop listening to his elders just because they died.
    Reminds me of Dunmeri culture from The Elder Scrolls.
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  8. - Top - End - #758
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Murdering (or sending back to hell) the cockroach the moment he had the authority to do so is fairly LE.

    GW
    Eh, I disagree with this. The Giant has some quote mentioning how he doesn't see killing creatures that are supernatural manifestations of pure evil (i.e. fiends, and possibly undead; I don't remember if he included them in that group) as morally comparable to killing regular, nonmagical sentient beings*, and I'm inclined to agree. Demonic cockroaches are in the former group, so I don't see stomping on them as problematic.

    You can argue about whether it's realistic to have beings like that, but once you've accepted that they exist, it's not problematic to destroy them. They don't have moral free will in the same way that we do.

    * More specifically, I believe he said something along the lines of there being two legitimate ways to depict fiends - as creatures of hatred and pure Evil, or as more complex and nuanced beings that may or may not be redeemable. I really wish I could find the quote in question, because I'm not sure I'm paraphrasing it correctly. I spent some time last night trying to track it down, but was unsuccessful.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2020-07-08 at 04:56 PM.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 11 halfling monk named Finnan Underbough and a level 4 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

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  9. - Top - End - #759
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RatElemental's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Reminds me of Dunmeri culture from The Elder Scrolls.
    Now that you mention it that might have been an inspiration for it, intentionally or not.

  10. - Top - End - #760
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    One memorable quote from the game was her telling the human in the party that she found it very shortsighted of him to stop listening to his elders just because they died.
    One of the university courses that I most enjoyed was The History of Science and Technology at Carleton University. On the final exam, one of the essay questions was just "Hippocrates has applied to the University of Ottawa's medical school program, and has asked you to write him a letter of recommendation. So write it." So I wrote up his various qualifications, noting the areas that were potentially problematic. That included two reservations that weren't specifically based on his medical work. One was that he didn't have any knowledge of the French language, which was presumably required for the program, but I pointed out that his knowledge of medical Greek was flawless and that he might be able to make up the limitation to some extent because French has some Greek roots. The other was that he was dead, but that that concern might be waived because the same was true for most people on the planet, and one shouldn't discriminate.

    I seem to recall a footnote in one of the books by Terry Pratchett or Neil Gaiman to the effect that Mardi Gras was an event the whole family could enjoy, especially those members of it who happened to be dead.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2020-07-08 at 08:53 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #761
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Eh, I disagree with this. The Giant has some quote mentioning how he doesn't see killing creatures that are supernatural manifestations of pure evil (i.e. fiends, and possibly undead; I don't remember if he included them in that group) as morally comparable to killing regular, nonmagical sentient beings*, and I'm inclined to agree. Demonic cockroaches are in the former group, so I don't see stomping on them as problematic.
    I am going to have to find that quote, because while I believe he may have said that of undead, I do not believe he included demonic beings in the same category.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  12. - Top - End - #762
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I am going to have to find that quote, because while I believe he may have said that of undead, I do not believe he included demonic beings in the same category.

    Grey Wolf
    I am pretty sure he did, because I believe he cited Sabine specifically as an example. If the post doesn't mention Sabine, it is probably not the one I was thinking of.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 11 halfling monk named Finnan Underbough and a level 4 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  13. - Top - End - #763
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Pretty sure it had something to do with negative energy.
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  14. - Top - End - #764
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Pretty sure it had something to do with negative energy.
    There are some other, later posts he made that mentioned negative energy and were somewhat similar, but I am not sure this one did. It was less mechanics-y and more metaphysical/ethical in nature.

    EDIT: I believe that I have found it. It's less detailed than I remembered; my memory was likely conflating some of the posts that Rich was replying to with his own post. Sabine appears in the discussion, but not in the post itself.

    The takeaway I get is Rich has less of a problem with treating explicitly magical creatures, like demons, as unthinking engines of Evil that exist only to be fought. This makes sense to me, since many of such creatures were invented as embodiments of concepts, rather than stand-ins for individual people, and thus easy justifications for racism.

    On a related (thematically, if not intuitively) note, if you haven't read Tolkien's Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics essay, I highly encourage it. it's a fascinating take that helped me better understand the justification for treating certain monsters as embodiments of timeless concepts, rather than as people. It's something that I wish D&D did a better job encouraging; the mythic setting that D&D naturally lends itself to is often taken for granted, which is a shame, as there's a lot of rich and exciting possibilities that can open up.

    I will admit that this doesn't really support my initial point about crushing the demon cockroaches, since The Giant notes that he tends not to treat them that way himself. I'd say more, but I have to run.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2020-07-08 at 10:16 PM.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 11 halfling monk named Finnan Underbough and a level 4 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  15. - Top - End - #765
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I am going to have to find that quote, because while I believe he may have said that of undead, I do not believe he included demonic beings in the same category.
    The closest I'm aware of offhand is about how other authors treat them.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    When it comes to creatures that are magical, that come from other planes of existence, that are living embodiments of concepts, or are descendants of gods, I do not see the point in forbidding others in taking the creative license to give such creatures highly negative or positive traits as a category (with various levels of how common those traits are).
    I generally have a much more lenient position on explicitly magical beings like demons. Even though I still choose to treat them with human feelings and drives, I am less critical of works that don't. Simply because, as you say, there could be some utility in that, at least theoretically.
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  16. - Top - End - #766
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    The closest I'm aware of offhand is about how other authors treat them.
    Curses! Ninja'd while editing my own post. If only I hadn't felt so compelled to ramble on about Tolkien for so long...
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 11 halfling monk named Finnan Underbough and a level 4 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  17. - Top - End - #767
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Sounds like fun. My lizardfolk usually says "The dead shall feed the living."
    Interesting idea, what if you had a world where the main religious tenet was "The dead shall feed the living" but in the sense of the decomposing body returning nutrients to the earth? Would they be strictly opposed to necromancy, or see it as a logical extension of using the dead to help their living counterparts?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  18. - Top - End - #768
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Interesting idea, what if you had a world where the main religious tenet was "The dead shall feed the living" but in the sense of the decomposing body returning nutrients to the earth? Would they be strictly opposed to necromancy, or see it as a logical extension of using the dead to help their living counterparts?
    I assume that would lead to a violent schism.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 11 halfling monk named Finnan Underbough and a level 4 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    My pronouns are he/his.

  19. - Top - End - #769
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Interesting idea, what if you had a world where the main religious tenet was "The dead shall feed the living" but in the sense of the decomposing body returning nutrients to the earth? Would they be strictly opposed to necromancy, or see it as a logical extension of using the dead to help their living counterparts?
    Some people would argue that the only natural (and thus acceptable) cycle is for the body to be consumed by the earth, so necromancy would be an abomination as it gets in the way of that. Others would argue that as long as the body is used to benefit those who are still alive it's fair game, including necromancy.

    And my lizardfolk would argue that there's little difference between him eating the body and letting it decompose. Either way the nutrients are returned to the living and eventually he'll die and give his nutrients back to the world as well.

  20. - Top - End - #770
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    And my lizardfolk would argue that there's little difference between him eating the body and letting it decompose. Either way the nutrients are returned to the living and eventually he'll die and give his nutrients back to the world as well.
    Was Elton John actually a lizard man? (Using original D&D term, since Elton (well, Reginald Dwight) is a man ...)
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  21. - Top - End - #771
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    ...For some reason, I was expecting you to link Crocodile Rock....
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  22. - Top - End - #772
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    bunsen_h's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Some people would argue that the only natural (and thus acceptable) cycle is for the body to be consumed by the earth, so necromancy would be an abomination as it gets in the way of that. Others would argue that as long as the body is used to benefit those who are still alive it's fair game, including necromancy.

    And my lizardfolk would argue that there's little difference between him eating the body and letting it decompose. Either way the nutrients are returned to the living and eventually he'll die and give his nutrients back to the world as well.
    "Specifically, I'd like to debate whether cannibalism ought to be grounds for leniency in murders, since it's less wasteful."

  23. - Top - End - #773
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    I really love hearing about peopleís D&D games; the creativity is phenomenal! Your game sounds awesome, Worldsong, and Iím really impressed with your DM.

    There are a few posts in long-ago threads that I really wish Iíd bookmarked - one about an island society where raising zombies to do manual labour was a normal part of the culture, and another about a character whose Paladin Fell and went all-in on his redemption quest (and eventually succeeded).

  24. - Top - End - #774
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Was Elton John actually a lizard man? (Using original D&D term, since Elton (well, Reginald Dwight) is a man ...)
    No, Elton John is a rocket man.

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