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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    This is a topic that just can't be properly discussed without bringing up historical examples, which would very quickly (perhaps immediately?) run afoul of the board rules. I just don't think anyone's ever going to come up with a set of rules for when exactly an act of rebellion against an injustice loses its legitimacy or how far is too far. It's always going to be very subjective even for the very people rising up in rebellion.

    Regardless, Redcloak can only render his own cause illegitimate, not the broader goblinoid cause. Those things are not synonyms, no matter how much Redcloak believes they are.
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  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    @dancrillis: It’s not a matter, for me, of “which specific actions are justifiable”, but of the principle that a just cause does not cease to be just irrespective of the actions taken in its pursuit.

    Many of Redcloak’s actions were not only horrifically immoral, but also did nothing to advance his own cause and were actively harmful to his people (sending hobgoblins to thrown their lives away because of a childish grudge). Those choices reflect on Redcloak himself. They do not reduce, by one iota, the justice of the cause of goblinoid equality.

    As far as the injustices faced by goblinoids, they seem to be primarily threefold:

    1) Political/economic: goblinoids were placed in marginal land without the resources typically necessary for the formation and functioning of a state, so that they would be raiders and targets for adventurers. This circumstance is still in existence for some goblinoids (such as Oona’s tribe, who can only survive on their marginal land due to the fortuitous existence of Monster Hollow, and otherwise would be in conflict with the dwarves for resources). However, for goblins and hobgoblins, the existence of Gobbotopia has greatly alleviated this problem.

    2) Metaphysical: Goblinoids having poorer stats than other species (and short life spans). This requires the Dark One to have a bargaining chip with the other deities in order to bring about change, hence the purpose of the Plan and the potential benefit of Thor’s proposal.

    3) Attitudinal (racism): killing of the “monster races” is done almost automatically in dungeon crawls, and is not regarded as being on the same moral level as killing dwarves, elves, humans, etc. The actions of the Sapphire Guard also fall into this category. This does not mean that every PC will kill any goblin on sight, but there is a difference in treatment (the whole arc with the black dragons also forms part of this theme).

    The raw deal that the dwarves have got does not invalidate the raw deal that goblins have got. I am fully confident that both will be rectified by the end of the book.

    EDIT: I can’t link to SOD, obviously, but page 37 of SOD gets at the crux of the first and second types of injustices described.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2020-07-02 at 04:16 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    I dunno, 87 legions don't sound very peaceful.
    They might not expand or be currently at war- well, before Redcloak and Xykon showed up -but I doubt those guys only sat around defending the valley(s).
    Having a well-armed defence force does not mean that you are going to attack anywhere. As far as we know, those 87 legions were the required number of troops to defend all of the hobgoblin territory from hostile incursions. After all, they are only assembled to one place when Redcloak wants to assault AC. Not to mention that since their legions consist of "300 or so" hobgoblins that really isn't what you would think of when you hear "legion".

  4. - Top - End - #544
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Dancrilis, just because one character acts that way in a single scene is in no way dispositive of Redcloak's point. We have seen multiple examples of things like
    - Belkar posting a bounty to kill a kobold in a city
    - adventurers going into dungeons and killing all the goblins because that's what they do (including our heroic protagonists in the very first strips)
    - probably other examples I can't think of off the top of my head

    The world is a dnd world. In dnd, goblins are xp fodder. The premise is very straightforward here.

  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jepekula View Post
    Having a well-armed defence force does not mean that you are going to attack anywhere. As far as we know, those 87 legions were the required number of troops to defend all of the hobgoblin territory from hostile incursions. After all, they are only assembled to one place when Redcloak wants to assault AC. Not to mention that since their legions consist of "300 or so" hobgoblins that really isn't what you would think of when you hear "legion".
    Also:

    Spoiler: GDGU, specifically HtPGHS
    Show

    We've met the person who likely ruled the hobgoblins for quite awhile, and from his explicit characterization while he's far from good he did support peace and not going on campaign against the humans and having like, a good relationship with O-Chul and stuff, the legions do seem to be able to sit around defending against various attacks (imo probably mostly from "Good" adventurers going on killing sprees.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Regardless, Redcloak can only render his own cause illegitimate, not the broader goblinoid cause. Those things are not synonyms, no matter how much Redcloak believes they are.
    Precisely. Redcloak's actions against the goblinoid cause in favor of his own should be ample warning that the goblinoid cause is something he'll violate (again) when it suits him. How many in-universe supporters of that goblinoid cause even know about
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    Redcloak's murder of his little brother
    , much less how much more his actions align towards making that feel worthwhile to him?


    Which is really the big point here. Almost by definition, moral options aren't expedient options. So if you'll readily fight immorality with immoral options, you'll give up on looking for a moral option because you'll find an expedient immoral one first...and at that point, you've given up on morality.

    And if someone else is taking those options, then they're similarly unbeholden to the morality you're supporting. Maybe you'll get lucky and they aren't simply using a noble cause as an excuse to further another cause you don't know about and then continue what you found immoral in the first place; but I wouldn't bet on it.

    And that is the problem with accepting immoral actions against (other) immoral actors. (Admittedly, "if you don’t stand for something, you'll fall for anything" is pithier.)
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2020-07-02 at 04:38 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Banjo is a benevolent god and will provide for the goblins when he comes to power.

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    1) Political/economic: goblinoids were placed in marginal land without the resources typically necessary for the formation and functioning of a state, so that they would be raiders and targets for adventurers. This circumstance is still in existence for some goblinoids (such as Oona’s tribe, who can only survive on their marginal land due to the fortuitous existence of Monster Hollow, and otherwise would be in conflict with the dwarves for resources). However, for goblins and hobgoblins, the existence of Gobbotopia has greatly alleviated this problem.
    Oona's tribe seem to be doing fine, the Hobgoblins were doing fine.
    Spoiler: SOD
    Show

    Right-Eye's village was doing fine (for a while)

    When Goblinoids settle down and get on with things they do alright - in fact the issue of marginal land has been brought up elsewhere is it legitimate as a complaint against the Gods and the structure of reality or is it merely that the Goblins never organised to secure some worthwhile land (much like the western humans), other then the Hobgoblins taking there valley and the Bugbears taking there canyon.
    This might be a 'the grass is always greener' situation.

    2) Metaphysical: Goblinoids having poorer stats than other species (and short life spans). This requires the Dark One to have a bargaining chip with the other deities in order to bring about change, hence the purpose of the Plan and the potential benefit of Thor’s proposal.
    Humans have shorter lift spans then Elves (and Dwarves, Halflings etc) and in a straight fight commoner to commoner I am dubious that the human would win (against either a small or medium sized goblin) frankly I think the goblin would actually win but maybe feats can make up the difference, there is little room to be dubious against Hobgoblins or Bugbears the human loses that one (again one on one commoner to commoner).
    Against a half-elf the Goblin seems a decent bit ahead.
    So this seems to be more an illegitimate grievance.

    3) Attitudinal (racism): killing of the “monster races” is done almost automatically in dungeon crawls, and is not regarded as being on the same moral level as killing dwarves, elves, humans, etc.
    I disagree - Haley and Belker vs the Thieves Guild, the Order vs Tarquin's army, Kazumi Kato vs Kubota's assassins - none of which were played as morally poor for slaughtering the human (and demi-human) opponents.

    EDIT: I can’t link to SOD, obviously, but page 37 of SOD gets at the crux of the first and second types of injustices described.
    My book is far away, but this actually brings up the point I should have mentioned earlier (was just figuring out how to word it).
    SOD is not part of the online comic and as such the story cannot rely on it - for Redcloak to be justified we need to a) hear his complaints in the comic, and b) show them to be reasonable.
    This chat with Durkon might just allow for that - but I am not sure that Durkon will accept it nor am I convinced that he should.

  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    The hobgoblins weren't doing all that great before they conquered Azure City. They were barely scrapping back, they were poor, and they were actively confined to the mountains by their Azurite neighbours through military force. As far as we know, the bugbears have one small village on the literal north pole. I seriously doubt they'd live there if better lands were easily available to them.
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  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    @dancrillus: I did not say that humans never fight other humans. The comic has demonstrated, with things like the Sapphire Guard, the events in OTOOPCs, and the black dragon events, that the threshold for killing “monstrous” races is much lower.

    I’d say, based on the Battle of Azure City, that the idea of average goblinoids being weaker than average humans is pretty clearly substantiated: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Haley
    They’re 1-HD hobgoblins, I think each soldier can handle three of them.
    Based on Rich’s demonstrated themes and stated goals, I do not think we are headed for the answer to the plot being “goblinoids were just making up being oppressed, there’s nothing that needs to be rectified”.

    He’s witing a story with the theme of “redress of injustice is necessary for global/societal survival”. That’s been obvious since Thor laid things out, and even more so given the events of HTPGHS, and even more so given the themes and ideas that run through all his commentary.

    And yes, the backstory from SOD is going to need to enter the online comic soon, and I’m avidly anticipating it.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2020-07-02 at 06:01 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #551
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    LadyEowyn is making a ton of good points here. Honestly it's hard to emphasize enough how monstrous (there's some irony) the gods were in creating sapient life whose only purpose was to be slaughtered so that their soul batteries could get stronger. It's like the Rick & Morty gag of the butter-serving robot programmed to question its own existence but on a cosmic scale.

    It's also important to not conflate the cause of goblinoid justice (which, again, look at LadyEowyn's post for that walkthrough) and the cause of Redcloak. Gobbotopia is currently the zenith of justice for goblinoids, it's exactly what The Dark One wanted when he got assassinated. Is it also an autocratic theocracy that practices slavery? Yes, but that's an entirely different problem from "the gods literally designed goblins to be cannon fodder". And if Redcloak actually was fighting for goblinoid justice, what's the point in going further? The Dark One already has a position of strength from his point of view, while editing reality to better support goblinoids would be good, Gobbotopia is clearly secure for the time being. He could pretty easily take the army of demons and elementals he summons to kill the Resistance, destroy Xykon and Tsukiko and help turn Gobbotopia into a prosperous state. But he can't.

    Redcloak's cause is The Plan. Or rather "Complete The Plan because that will retroactively justify every awful thing I did in following it". This is what makes him a villain in the end. He has long since turned away from actual justice to being unable to look himself in the mirror without defensively backtalking to his own reflection. "It'll all be worth it" refers to things like
    Spoiler: SOD
    Show
    allowing Xykon to enslave his family, murdering his little brother, throwing hobgoblin lives away out of grudges, and letting Tsukiko and Xykon desecrate goblin corpses.
    Redcloak is about to be offered a path out of senseless destruction by Durkon, and he's going to reject it because he can't bear to live with himself if he's not following The Plan. I wouldn't be surprised if The Dark One wound up agreeing to Thor's proposal and Redcloak turned The Plan into a cosmic suicide bomb out of despair and heartbreak.

  12. - Top - End - #552
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Oona's tribe seem to be doing fine, the Hobgoblins were doing fine.
    Spoiler: SOD
    Show

    Right-Eye's village was doing fine (for a while)
    "For the while" in Right-eye's village means that anyone strong enough is able to quite easily coerce the village under his control. It's highly unlikely that Xykon could've done it with Azure City or Cliffport.

    Humans have shorter lift spans then Elves (and Dwarves, Halflings etc) and in a straight fight commoner to commoner I am dubious that the human would win (against either a small or medium sized goblin) frankly I think the goblin would actually win but maybe feats can make up the difference, there is little room to be dubious against Hobgoblins or Bugbears the human loses that one (again one on one commoner to commoner).
    Against a half-elf the Goblin seems a decent bit ahead.
    So this seems to be more an illegitimate grievance.
    Humans do have shorter lifespans, but they also develop more quickly. Goblins do seem to age the same rate as humans (judging by a younger Redcloak and Right-Eye's dialogue) yet they have a shorter lifespan. If both goblins and humans develop at the same pace, yet one gets to live to 80-90 while the other dies by 50, that is a considerable unfairness for the goblin.


    I disagree - Haley and Belker vs the Thieves Guild, the Order vs Tarquin's army, Kazumi Kato vs Kubota's assassins - none of which were played as morally poor for slaughtering the human (and demi-human) opponents.
    Yeah, it's not morally poor because they're killing out of self-defense. Haley killing the Guild because they would kill her is not morally poor; her shooting them while they play poker would be.

    Spoiler: SOD
    Show
    The Sapphire Guard killing Redcloak's previous master may or may not be morally poor; them killing Redcloak's sister is very much so.


    My book is far away, but this actually brings up the point I should have mentioned earlier (was just figuring out how to word it).
    SOD is not part of the online comic and as such the story cannot rely on it - for Redcloak to be justified we need to a) hear his complaints in the comic, and b) show them to be reasonable.
    This chat with Durkon might just allow for that - but I am not sure that Durkon will accept it nor am I convinced that he should.
    On that, I have no idea how Redcloak would bring up his family member or the sunk-cost fallacy or his hometown situation, and I don't know if Durkon would believe it either. That's up for #1206 and onward, I guess.

  13. - Top - End - #553
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’d say, based on the Battle of Azure City, that the idea of average goblinoids being weaker than average humans is pretty clearly substantiated.
    Thanks for the link I was going to ask for one before seeing your edit.

    According to Redcloak he felt he had tougher soldiers at any rate (panel 4).

    So at least from Redcloak's prespective poor stats are not a valid arguement when it comes to Hobgoblins to Humans anyway.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    @Soup du Jour:

    Thank you!

    I can see things going as you describe. Either TDO or Redcloak is going to end up working with the Order et al to save the world, but which of them it will be is still in the air.

    I think Redcloak is slightly more likely because it’s more interesting to see a “redemption arc” for a character we’ve spent a lot of time with than one we’ve only heard of indirectly, and Redcloak has definitely expressed increasing dissatisfaction with his current direction (killing paladins is no longer satisfying; dislikes dungeon-crawling at Kraagor’s tomb; seems happy about idea of negotiating trade with Oona’s people [while deceiving her/himself; he knows “Monster Hollow” won’t survive the Plan]; very clearly wants to be rid of Xykon ASAP).

    I can see him flipping.

    But I can also see him breaking, as you describe.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2020-07-02 at 06:13 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #555
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Humans do have shorter lifespans, but they also develop more quickly. Goblins do seem to age the same rate as humans (judging by a younger Redcloak and Right-Eye's dialogue) yet they have a shorter lifespan. If both goblins and humans develop at the same pace, yet one gets to live to 80-90 while the other dies by 50, that is a considerable unfairness for the goblin.
    Races of Faerun has them maturing slightly faster then humans (in player terms 1 year faster, in culture 5 years faster).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    [snipped but I agree with it, just don't care about it rn]
    Based on Rich’s demonstrated themes and stated goals, I do not think we are headed for the answer to the plot being “goblinoids were just making up being oppressed, there’s nothing that needs to be rectified”.

    He’s witing a story with the theme of “redress of injustice is necessary for global/societal survival”. That’s been obvious since Thor laid things out, and even more so given the events of HTPGHS, and even more so given the themes and ideas that run through all his commentary.

    And yes, the backstory from SOD is going to need to enter the online comic soon, and I’m avidly anticipating it.
    This, this is stuff I think about every single time that someone brings up the idea that TDO or goblins are wrong in any meaningful way about how they were treated, its just not the story Rich is writing, you can bring up whatever in-universe watsonian evidence you want, but this is an issue Rich clearly cares about and is telling his story about, something everything he has ever said about this stuff supports, and that (also because imo this story is much better than marginalized groups lying/being wrong about being oppressed).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  17. - Top - End - #557
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    "For the while" in Right-eye's village means that anyone strong enough is able to quite easily coerce the village under his control. It's highly unlikely that Xykon could've done it with Azure City or Cliffport.
    Xykon was an epic-level lich sorcerer. No village the size of Right-Eye's could have stood up to him, unless it happened to currently be harboring a party of high-level adventurers. Azure City or Cliffport might have been able to do better, but that's because they were metropolises that contained plenty of high-level characters.

    It's not totally clear how secure goblinoid settlements are when the Sapphire Guard isn't searching them and the main villains of the comic aren't recruiting them - if I had to guess, I would say "less secure than human villages, but probably not devastatingly so, since Right-Eye talked about setting up a college fund" - but I certainly wouldn't take that scene as representative of the goblin experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Humans do have shorter lifespans, but they also develop more quickly. Goblins do seem to age the same rate as humans (judging by a younger Redcloak and Right-Eye's dialogue) yet they have a shorter lifespan. If both goblins and humans develop at the same pace, yet one gets to live to 80-90 while the other dies by 50, that is a considerable unfairness for the goblin.
    Really, it seems to me as though goblins develop considerably more rapidly than humans. A throwaway line in one of the books reveals that hobgoblin mothers give birth after only three months of pregnancy. I imagine that this is coupled with an accelerated growth rate in general. In fact, it seems likely that one of the reasons why goblinoids are able to hold their own against longer-lived races, despite their inferior land, relative poverty and lack of arcane abilities, is their ability to outbreed them, and probably their fairly rapid rise to maturity. In a less violent world, it's not difficult to imagine that goblinoids might quickly grow to form the majority of the population on most continents.

    It's not hard to imagine that one of the reasons for the apparently frequent warfare between the goblinoids and the "PC races" might be the fear of the latter of being outbred. Even in times of peace, there might be eugenics movements advocating for the "culling" of goblinoids in order to protect the purity of human civilization or some claptrap like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Yeah, it's not morally poor because they're killing out of self-defense. Haley killing the Guild because they would kill her is not morally poor; her shooting them while they play poker would be.

    Spoiler: SOD
    Show
    The Sapphire Guard killing Redcloak's previous master may or may not be morally poor; them killing Redcloak's sister is very much so.
    Totally agree with this.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    If I'm not mistaken, humans actually are born surprisingly early in their development, because they're born based on when the head can fit through the birth canal instead of being fully developed. Hence why they're so fragile and weak, while things like baby deer can run within a day.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
    Show


    Xykon was an epic-level lich sorcerer. No village the size of Right-Eye's could have stood up to him, unless it happened to currently be harboring a party of high-level adventurers. Azure City or Cliffport might have been able to do better, but that's because they were metropolises that contained plenty of high-level characters.
    Yeah, I think this is why Gobbotopia probably could hold stronger against a high-level magic force. A structured city might provide more hobgoblin clerics and wizards a chance to form a high-level defense squad.

    Really, it seems to me as though goblins develop considerably more rapidly than humans. A throwaway line in one of the books reveals that hobgoblin mothers give birth after only three months of pregnancy. I imagine that this is coupled with an accelerated growth rate in general. In fact, it seems likely that one of the reasons why goblinoids are able to hold their own against longer-lived races, despite their inferior land, relative poverty and lack of arcane abilities, is their ability to outbreed them, and probably their fairly rapid rise to maturity. In a less violent world, it's not difficult to imagine that goblinoids might quickly grow to form the majority of the population on most continents.
    Huh, maybe. In

    Spoiler: SOD
    Show

    Redcloak is what, late teens when he becomes a cleric? He certainly doesn't act like a person one-third of his age, assuming that goblins live to 50-60. Similarly, Right-Eye acts mentally like a 50 year-old and not someone who is very close to dying age (even though physically he is).

    I'm not familiar with eugenics, so I'm (probably) completely wrong.



    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, humans actually are born surprisingly early in their development, because they're born based on when the head can fit through the birth canal instead of being fully developed. Hence why they're so fragile and weak, while things like baby deer can run within a day.
    Goblins and deer may or may not be comparable, although goblins can probably act faster after they're born if they have a scaled-up life rate.
    Last edited by understatement; 2020-07-02 at 10:28 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    There are three different gate spells/rituals.

    Gate creation, which requires epic divine and arcane magic.

    Gate subversion, which requires high (but not epic) divine and arcane magic.

    Rift sealing, which requires a ninth level purple spell slot, and an unspecified contribution from the other pantheons that was implied to be trivial.
    Isn’t rift-sealing = Gate creation anyways? Though considering how big some of the rifts have gotten, I’d imagine both would be far more difficult now...
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  21. - Top - End - #561
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Isn’t rift-sealing = Gate creation anyways?
    Nope. They sealed the rifts, and later created the Gates.
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  22. - Top - End - #562
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup du Jour View Post
    LadyEowyn is making a ton of good points here. Honestly it's hard to emphasize enough how monstrous (there's some irony) the gods were in creating sapient life whose only purpose was to be slaughtered so that their soul batteries could get stronger.
    We have precisely one source for that claim--the Dark One, via Redcloak. Do you really think everything the Dark One says (even to his high priest) is the truth? As I've said elsewhere, the idea that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because there are plenty of low-level beasts in the Monster Manual who would provide just as much XP as a goblin would without being sapient.

  23. - Top - End - #563
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    We have precisely one source for that claim--the Dark One, via Redcloak. Do you really think everything the Dark One says (even to his high priest) is the truth? As I've said elsewhere, the idea that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because there are plenty of low-level beasts in the Monster Manual who would provide just as much XP as a goblin would without being sapient.
    But that is the role goblins fulfil in dnd so we know that the dark one is right due to meta information

  24. - Top - End - #564
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    We have precisely one source for that claim--the Dark One, via Redcloak. Do you really think everything the Dark One says (even to his high priest) is the truth? As I've said elsewhere, the idea that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because there are plenty of low-level beasts in the Monster Manual who would provide just as much XP as a goblin would without being sapient.
    Strictly speaking they didn't need a sapient race as a source of XP, no. They didn't need any living beings as a source of XP either. They didn't need XP at all. But they wanted a D&D world with XP and fights, and they needed compelling sources of XP. No one wants to fight nothing but random critters in a game. All this tells us is that the gods (taken as a group) are morally dubious at best, which we already knew.

    As such, it's not a reason to question the Dark One's version of events. His lore might not be completely accurate, he might be twisting the facts for his own benefit or whatever, but I will be VERY surprised if what he said wasn't roughly the truth.
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  25. - Top - End - #565
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    I think no one is arguing the goblins didn't get dealt a pretty bad hand.
    What's in question is wether it was deliberate or out of negligence/stupidity from the gods (From what we've seen the latter seems more likely) and if the Dark One is truthful regarding his aims.
    I mean, if it was equality, wouldn't Gobbotopia be a better base to work from?
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  26. - Top - End - #566
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Strictly speaking they didn't need a sapient race as a source of XP, no. They didn't need any living beings as a source of XP either. They didn't need XP at all. But they wanted a D&D world with XP and fights, and they needed compelling sources of XP. No one wants to fight nothing but random critters in a game. All this tells us is that the gods (taken as a group) are morally dubious at best, which we already knew.
    I was under the impression that the gods didn’t get to decide that their universe works by D&D rules just what kind of setting it was like. Not sure if this is directly stated or if it’s just my interpretation, though.
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    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  27. - Top - End - #567
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I was under the impression that the gods didn’t get to decide that their universe works by D&D rules just what kind of setting it was like. Not sure if this is directly stated or if it’s just my interpretation, though.
    Well, I guess the point about fighting critters still stands either way. Since they went through every edition prior to 3.5 in the span of a few decades I have trouble believing they had billions of years of just 1st edition D&D worlds prior to that, but those edition numbers could easily apply to just this one universe and all the previous ones could still have operated on rules that we would recognize as predecessors of D&D if we could take a look at them.
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  28. - Top - End - #568
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    We have precisely one source for that claim--the Dark One, via Redcloak. Do you really think everything the Dark One says (even to his high priest) is the truth? As I've said elsewhere, the idea that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because there are plenty of low-level beasts in the Monster Manual who would provide just as much XP as a goblin would without being sapient.
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    But that is the role goblins fulfil in dnd so we know that the dark one is right due to meta information
    Pretty much what CriticalFailure said. If observed in a vacuum you could argue that the people claiming that goblinoids are mistreated are untrustworthy. But this story doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in the context of DnD in general and Rich likes to use it as commentary on certain aspects of DnD. For example Miko's entire arc was commentary on paladins, how they are portrayed and what you should try to avoid doing when you RP a paladin.

    In the context of DnD goblins being treated as nothing but XP fodder and lesser creatures in comparison to the PC races is objectively true. You could probably find some stories in which they're not hunted down on sight but the vast majority of the time a goblin is something low level adventurers kill to become stronger.

    And as someone else has pointed out it'd be very surprising if at the end of all this Rich suddenly says 'oh by the way the whole injustice towards goblinoids thing was a sham'. Especially since it would mean that Redcloak's entire arc would be rendered moot and pointless.

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  29. - Top - End - #569
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    ...I mean, if it was equality, wouldn't Gobbotopia be a better base to work from?
    No, because the thing about Gobbotopia is that it uses slave labor. Specifically, human slave labor (with, presumably, a smattering of other races).
    Now, if you really meant 'parity' as opposed to equality, sure.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    No, because the thing about Gobbotopia is that it uses slave labor. Specifically, human slave labor (with, presumably, a smattering of other races).
    Now, if you really meant 'parity' as opposed to equality, sure.
    Compared to "the Plan" I mean.
    Sure, it needs work, from both sides, but it seems doable.
    And compared to "threaten the other gods with a sentient nuke full of hate and malevolence against all that is"...
    Yeah, I'll take the slavers, thanks.
    Not like human evil nations do anything different.
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