OOTS #1205 - The Discussion Thread

[TheNecrocomicon]

Most likely Minrah, she's got to be around here somewhere. Note that at no point does he claim to be there alone.

True, and I think that's the case.

Then again, the only indication we have was in #1204, where we saw the entire ledge and she wasn't there either, so while she might be near Durkon (as seems probable), the only certainty is that she isn't with the rest of the party.

[Squire Doodad]

True, and I think that's the case.

Then again, the only indication we have was in #1204, where we saw the entire ledge and she wasn't there either, so while she might be near Durkon (as seems probable), the only certainty is that she isn't with the rest of the party.

Or she's just not on screen, though I think Rich intentionally made it somewhat ambiguous so as to allow for discussion.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She could easily be hovering above them while still under the Wind Walk spell.

[Lheticus]

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

{scrubbed}

I shouldn't laugh but your signature is unfortunately very appropriate there.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm eager to see what Thor is willing to offer/concede. In my head cannon there was a conversation between Thor and Durkon about what options were on the table. This wasn't showing because it would all need to be repeated in front of Redcloak.

To memory neither has Xykon or the Monster in the Darkness

Actually, Xykon killed Fryon with an improvised weapon.

Apart from that early strip (you know the one), do people in OOTS even need to go to bathrooms? The whole Order does fine at the pyramid, Redcloak spends a whole day standing in the Battle of Azure City, etc etc. Then again, this is OOTS, not ASOIAF.

Julio uses the bathroom as well.

There were time cuts in the pyramid where the order could have gone to the bathroom. They probably did so between #891 and #892.

As for the battle, I'm just going to assume the hobgoblins dug a latrine.

A penchat for seeing characters rewarded/punished on-screen.

I fully expect Rich to subvert this. I expect the ending to be real diplomacy and breaking the cycle of violence rather that a "good guys" win all.

Maybe they'll have to fight a literal cycle of violence? Maybe that's what tMitD is?

[Angelalex242]

On redemption? ....

Well, Quoth Lord Soon:

Redemption is a rare and special thing. It is not for everyone.

Though there's irony to be found if achieves what could not.

[Mariele]

Anyone else willing to bet that this is just the first step in negotiations? Durkon lays a few things out and then backs off so Redcloak has time to think it over?

I like it, but I'll take the bet that Durkon is just going to spill it all and try to persuade him now.

Finally finally finally!!!

I’ve been excited about this plot direction ever since we got the backstory-comics with Thor in the last book. SO glad to see it paying off!

I enjoyed the Tumblr post. :) And I agree.

I really love this comic. People have been speculating left and right about how Durkon would carefully bring up Thor's idea, but I wouldn't in a million years have considered that Redcloak might have been expecting it.

Same. The "no... I actually didn't" stood out to me a lot in this strip. Hadn't thought of that one!

Lots of people have indicated that the statue is a bad idea. How I think this shell game goes is that neither the statue holds the gate, nor any of the dungeons. Redcloak stated the whole area was "built up" out of multidimensional stone, so it seems to me that a thick enough layer of that would block divinations and force someone to rely on dwarvish mining and barbarian strength to get to it. The statue may merely be the "X marks the spot" on the surface, for whoever is in the know as to where to look fathoms below amidst solid rock.

I hadn't thought of that. Clever! That would make Redcloak and Xykon's exchange a nice bit of foreshadowing. Nobody cares about the exposition, indeed. :)

Spoiler: SoD

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He murdered his own brother rather than admit to his failures. He’s not rational he’s a fifty year old stuck in the body and mindset of an angry teen.

I do agree that he’s ‘as rational as an evil person would [be]’ though.

Spoiler: Sod

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Meh. Everyone always uses that example of Redcloak being irrational, but imo, Right-Eye's plan did have a lot of holes in it, and Redcloak is... a cleric. Y'know, the people that devote themselves most fully to their gods and do their best to live out their lives as their gods wish? If I was that devout and my god gave me a personal mission and they seemed to "approve" of how I was fulfilling it (giving spells, no warnings, etc), I'd be more inclined to see Xykon as a means to an end as well. His brother wasn't a cleric, he couldn't expect him to see it the same way he did. Does Redcloak feel guilty about it? Yes. Does he seem to suffer from sunk cost fallacy? Yes. But I don't think his decision at the time was at all irrational--he was between a rock and a hard place, and he chose his connection with his god over his connection with his brother. It didn't seem that crazy to me.

I like how Redcloak was so relatively decent to some random dwarf... and willing to listen to Durkon instead of smiting him outright when he learned he was from the OotS. But this strip was different from what I was expecting. The last strip just set up so much expectation for drama and to see it go down in such a smooth way is surprising. Definitely makes me excited for the next strip, though.

[Squire Doodad]

I like how Redcloak was so relatively decent to some random dwarf... and willing to listen to Durkon instead of smiting him outright when he learned he was from the OotS. But this strip was different from what I was expecting. The last strip just set up so much expectation for drama and to see it go down in such a smooth way is surprising. Definitely makes me excited for the next strip, though.

In all fairness, a statue of a great dwarf of whom there are very few records of would be of great value to a dwarven archaeologist of some sort, to say nothing of the hollow being an interesting adventure location. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a group that appeared shortly after team evil arrived at the Tomb with an interest in the statue itself. Whether they were quickly shooed away to save magic, took their notes and left before RC and Xykon returned from a gate-hunting session, or still remain there in the form of ash would be up in the air.

[Bisqwit]

Where is Minrah, though?

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Sod

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Meh. Everyone always uses that example of Redcloak being irrational, but imo, Right-Eye's plan did have a lot of holes in it, and Redcloak is... a cleric. Y'know, the people that devote themselves most fully to their gods and do their best to live out their lives as their gods wish? If I was that devout and my god gave me a personal mission and they seemed to "approve" of how I was fulfilling it (giving spells, no warnings, etc), I'd be more inclined to see Xykon as a means to an end as well. His brother wasn't a cleric, he couldn't expect him to see it the same way he did. Does Redcloak feel guilty about it? Yes. Does he seem to suffer from sunk cost fallacy? Yes. But I don't think his decision at the time was at all irrational--he was between a rock and a hard place, and he chose his connection with his god over his connection with his brother. It didn't seem that crazy to me.

Spoiler

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That you think it isn't crazy to choose to murder your brother to gain some vague approval from a distant god is legitimately scary to me. Not joking at all here.

But there's two things wrong here: Even if Right-Eye and him couldn't ake Xykon after he was weakened by the duel (which I doubt) he could have simply chosen not to intervene. In fact, that he did intervene shows that he really thought Xykon was going to die. He could have done nothing an dthen resurrect right-Eye and smuggle him away, or at least try to.

The second is that, he didn't choose between his brother and his god at all. Because Xykon isn't necessary to the Plan. There are others evil arcasne spellcasters in the world. Hell, there are others evil arcane spellcasters in the book. If Xykon died he could have moved on and started again with another caster, one who would be his henchman instead of the other way around. But he didn't? And you know why? Because the sunk cost fallacy didn't start after his brother died, it satrted well before that. It started when the first goblin under his command died. ANd it grew deeper with each death. He didn't kill his brother to obey the Dark One, he killed him because he couldn't accept that he was wrong to ally with Xykon, because he couldn't accept that every goblin who ded because of Xykon died for nothing and that each goblin who was killed because of Xykon died because of him. He killed his own brother because he'd rather murder all the family he has left than face the consequences of his actions and then makes up excuses for his sorry ass and pretends that feeling bad about it somehow makes it okay. Because much like Tarquin, Durkon*, Belkar and Nale (and hell, like Miko in a way) he isn't a rationnal person. He's an angry, immature and confused teenager who just saw his family and friends slaughtered and can't let go of that, can't grow beyond that with all of his worst impulses nurtured and encouraged by an uncaring, vengeful demon-god and the toxic approximation of a human being that serves as the closest thing he's had has a friend. Redclaok is deep-down a terrible person because he refuses to be better and he does so because he is terrified of what the cost would be.

He puts airs of being a serious non-nonsense, in-control, sensible and pragmatic guy but he really is not. If he were well-balanced with a healthy mind he wouldn't be evil.

[Peelee]

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That you think it isn't crazy to choose to murder your brother to gain some vague approval from a distant god is legitimately scary to me.

Spoiler: Devil's Advocate:

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The god is not all that distant here.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Devil's Advocate:

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The god is not all that distant here.

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Is he not?

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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Is he not?

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Imean, when Redcloak dies, if all goes well, he will be spending his afterlife with The Dark One. I'd call that "not terribly distant", despite the lack of video calls.

[Fyraltari]

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Imean, when Redcloak dies, if all goes well, he will be spending his afterlife with The Dark One. I'd call that "not terribly distant", despite the lack of video calls.

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That he will be less idstant doesn't mean he isn't right now. But more importantly, I have yet to see any eveidence that TDO cares about Redcloak the way Thor cares about his people. He's not being a positive influence on Redcloak is what I'm going at.

[bunsen_h]

Julio uses the bathroom as well.

Mr. Scruffy uses a litter box.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh god, he and V might go on a redemption quest together in the epilogue. Imagine that.

If the defunct Crack Pairings thread of all things turns out to have made accurate predictions, I officially give up.

[understatement]

If the defunct Crack Pairings thread of all things turns out to have made accurate predictions, I officially give up.

This is gold.

Spoiler

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That he will be less idstant doesn't mean he isn't right now. But more importantly, I have yet to see any eveidence that TDO cares about Redcloak the way Thor cares about his people. He's not being a positive influence on Redcloak is what I'm going at.

Spoiler: SOD

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Come to think of it, the TDO has probably the worst possible influence ever given to a mortal. Was there seriously not a better time to dump the Plan on Redcloak than at the site of his village's massacre? It's almost like he's self serving or something...

Altho he seems pretty nice with Jirix, so who knows.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: SOD

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Come to think of it, the TDO has probably the worst possible influence ever given to a mortal. Was there seriously not a better time to dump the Plan on Redcloak than at the site of his village's massacre? It's almost like he's self serving or something...

Spoiler: SOD

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I think that might have been more 'put on the cloak get the knowledge' rather than the Dark One actively communicating.

[understatement]

Spoiler: SOD

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I think that might have been more 'put on the cloak get the knowledge' rather than the Dark One actively communicating.

Spoiler: SOD

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There's the huge-text LEARN, and Redcloak right after that says he "understands it all" now or something. And right after that, Redcloak is already moving on with the Plan (with the weird mind-control-ish eyes) just seconds after his village gets wiped.

I do doubt that's a direct communication, but the fact that Right-Eye states he's "still the same angry kid" maaybe suggests he's, essentially, 'trapped' in that moment? In no way am I excusing Redcloak of anything, since killing his brother is very much on his head, but I wouldn't trust the Dark One with anything either. Doesn't seem like a selfless guy.

[Mariele]

Spoiler

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That you think it isn't crazy to choose to murder your brother to gain some vague approval from a distant god is legitimately scary to me. Not joking at all here.

But there's two things wrong here: Even if Right-Eye and him couldn't ake Xykon after he was weakened by the duel (which I doubt) he could have simply chosen not to intervene. In fact, that he did intervene shows that he really thought Xykon was going to die. He could have done nothing an dthen resurrect right-Eye and smuggle him away, or at least try to.

The second is that, he didn't choose between his brother and his god at all. Because Xykon isn't necessary to the Plan. There are others evil arcasne spellcasters in the world. Hell, there are others evil arcane spellcasters in the book. If Xykon died he could have moved on and started again with another caster, one who would be his henchman instead of the other way around. But he didn't? And you know why? Because the sunk cost fallacy didn't start after his brother died, it satrted well before that. It started when the first goblin under his command died. ANd it grew deeper with each death. He didn't kill his brother to obey the Dark One, he killed him because he couldn't accept that he was wrong to ally with Xykon, because he couldn't accept that every goblin who ded because of Xykon died for nothing and that each goblin who was killed because of Xykon died because of him. He killed his own brother because he'd rather murder all the family he has left than face the consequences of his actions and then makes up excuses for his sorry ass and pretends that feeling bad about it somehow makes it okay. Because much like Tarquin, Durkon*, Belkar and Nale (and hell, like Miko in a way) he isn't a rationnal person. He's an angry, immature and confused teenager who just saw his family and friends slaughtered and can't let go of that, can't grow beyond that with all of his worst impulses nurtured and encouraged by an uncaring, vengeful demon-god and the toxic approximation of a human being that serves as the closest thing he's had has a friend. Redclaok is deep-down a terrible person because he refuses to be better and he does so because he is terrified of what the cost would be.

He puts airs of being a serious non-nonsense, in-control, sensible and pragmatic guy but he really is not. If he were well-balanced with a healthy mind he wouldn't be evil.

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Yeah, ok, there really aren't enough eyeroll emojis for your first line there. Just gonna skip over that.

This is a universe with a confirmed afterlife and confirmed strong presence of gods. The gods aren't exactly "distant" here. There's not the ambiguity in this universe about gods and life after death that there is in the real world. We've already established death is treated differently in this universe because of this.

I never said that Redcloak wasn't evil. I said that his position wasn't irrational.

Your second point would be a good one if Redcloak could get away from Xykon. He tried that, it didn't work. Xykon wasn't going to let him just up and leave. Maybe Redcloak could have resurrected and smuggled Right-Eye away (and presumably the rest of his living family), but could he keep him from Xykon forever? Chances are he'd into him again while recruiting more goblin villages for the cause. And finding a new arcane spellcaster would be good and all only if he could get rid of Xykon, otherwise he has someone who knows about the gates who doesn't seem intent on letting him run off. I don't think that the chances were as great for Redcloak and Right-Eye to take Xykon down as you do. Wasn't Right-Eye fairly low level compared to Redcloak and Xykon (not sure if that's accurate, that's just how I remember it, since he left to settle down and all). All it would take for Redcloak to not want to participate was knowing that Xykon could kill him, and then the Plan would really be screwed--and not acting and witnessing his brother turn on Xykon and try to take him down wouldn't exactly make Xykon happy.

Didn't Redcloak figure that chances were good that the planet would get made over or some such if the Plan went according to, uh, plan? (Can't check, don't have SoD on hand) Seems very "ends justify the means" to let goblins suffer now--himself included--at the hands of a crazed lich so that future goblins had a better life.

Your opinion is perfectly valid, and I can see where it comes from, but I don't share it.

Edit: it occurred to me that maybe you think that Evil characters are inherently irrational? I don't agree with that, since different mentalities have different values of what makes sense in their worldview and all. I and am thinking of rationality as "what would be rational for an Evil character", with the disregard for dignity, decency, and rights that follows that. This is a character that thinks slavery is all well and good, after all--I don't think his love for his baby brother is the same quality as, say, Roy's love for his baby brother.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: SOD

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I do doubt that's a direct communication, but the fact that Right-Eye states he's "still the same angry kid" maaybe suggests he's, essentially, 'trapped' in that moment? In no way am I excusing Redcloak of anything, since killing his brother is very much on his head, but I wouldn't trust the Dark One with anything either. Doesn't seem like a selfless guy.

Spoiler: SOD

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I think that Right-Eye might have been engaged in two things - firstly he knew how to press his brother buttons, and secondly he was pointing out that Redcloak hadn't lived and grown - but whether that is a function of immortality or mentality I do not know.

As for the Dark One - we know almost nothing about him really, of all the named characters in the comic we might know the least about him, so both trust and suspicion might be unearned (except insofar as people can be trusted to have their own interests in mind and one can be suspicious that their interests align with yours).

[Wraithfighter]

With regards to what Redcloak might demand? I think the biggest thing, and the greatest stumbling block, is Azure City and Gobbotopia.

Redcloak wants a better world for all Goblinkind, and that capital city serving as the foundation for a strong nation to protect the interests of Goblins is the greatest non-divine tool that they could hope for. If there's any prize that could convince Redcloak to help, it's that.

...but beyond the mundane reasons why a Lawful-Good deity like Thor might balk at that (I mean, it's explicitly a slave state occupied by a Usually-Evil species), it's not just Thor involved here. The Southern Pantheon voted "No" to the blow-up-the-world-now plan, and we have word from Thor that The Dark One's previous ally, Rat, is furious over what happened to Azure City, and the rest of the Twelve Gods aren't exactly happy about it either. How many votes might they lose if the only way they can stop the Snarl now is to let the Goblins keep Azure City?

How many would shrug and see if they can find a more amenable new god down the line?

[understatement]

Spoiler: SOD

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I think that Right-Eye might have been engaged in two things - firstly he knew how to press his brother buttons, and secondly he was pointing out that Redcloak hadn't lived and grown - but whether that is a function of immortality or mentality I do not know.

As for the Dark One - we know almost nothing about him really, of all the named characters in the comic we might know the least about him, so both trust and suspicion might be unearned (except insofar as people can be trusted to have their own interests in mind and one can be suspicious that their interests align with yours).

Spoiler: SOD

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I believe it's mentality. If Redcloak had gotten the cloak (and the Plan) a less traumatic way -- like a simple passing it over or such -- things might've turned out for the better. I view the scene as Redcloak -- who's standing over his master's corpse -- mentally thinking "what the heck happened and what can I do about it to avenge my family?" The TDO via cloak promptly gives him an answer -- "hijack the world." If that's not sketchy timing then I don't know what is.

But who knows what the TDO is up to. Even the gods don't know.

[dancrilis]

With regards to what Redcloak might demand? I think the biggest thing, and the greatest stumbling block, is Azure City and Gobbotopia.

Redcloak wants a better world for all Goblinkind, and that capital city serving as the foundation for a strong nation to protect the interests of Goblins is the greatest non-divine tool that they could hope for. If there's any prize that could convince Redcloak to help, it's that.

...but beyond the mundane reasons why a Lawful-Good deity like Thor might balk at that (I mean, it's explicitly a slave state occupied by a Usually-Evil species), it's not just Thor involved here. The Southern Pantheon voted "No" to the blow-up-the-world-now plan, and we have word from Thor that The Dark One's previous ally, Rat, is furious over what happened to Azure City, and the rest of the Twelve Gods aren't exactly happy about it either. How many votes might they lose if the only way they can stop the Snarl now is to let the Goblins keep Azure City?

How many would shrug and see if they can find a more amenable new god down the line?

We don't know how tight the vote in the South was, it might be a single vote can swing it or it might be that Rat* voted to end the world and the other 11 voted to keep it.
*or any other god, or no god at all.

Also Thor likely doesn't care about Gobbotopia at all on a personal level and he might not need any others to help him (we don't know his plan).

If the Dark One is thinking like I am he would would to be recognised as the new Eastern Pantheon and thereby get a senior seat at the main God table and be left alone to oversee a quarter of the world - with that he likely has achieved any aims he has (except petty revenge ones).

[danielxcutter]

Huh... you know, just last book we got some insight on the nature of gods. They literally have some truths hard-baked into them that they are physically unable to go against.

That is not to say they are no more than that, but it really defines a lot of what they are.

What would define TDO? What would his nature be? We’ve seen gods doing obviously unwise decisions because of this; Dvalin was bound by his oath and Loki couldn’t be honest with Hel despite probably wanting to.

As a mortal goblin, TDO probably could have been reasoned with. Considering how he ascended, though... we’ll have to see, I guess.

[PracticalM]

And then Odin is the Northern one.
I'm not sure who the Eastern God of prohpecy would be, though it's a bit of a moot point.

{scrubbed}

[woweedd]

Huh. Redcloak and Durkon actually have kinda a cool dynamic.

And then Odin is the Northern one.
I'm not sure who the Eastern God of prohpecy would be, though it's a bit of a moot point.

Given that Sagawan (the blind chick we saw in some comics a while back) states Rooster as the one who gave her her powers, i'm gonna guess it's him.

[danielxcutter]

Huh. Redcloak and Durkon actually have kinda a cool dynamic.

Given that Sagawan (the blind chick we saw in some comics a while back) states Rooster as the one who gave her her powers, i'm gonna guess it's him.

Eastern is the pantheon that got killed by the Snarl in the first world. The Twelve are the Southern Pantheon.

[Wraithfighter]

We don't know how tight the vote in the South was, it might be a single vote can swing it or it might be that Rat* voted to end the world and the other 11 voted to keep it.
*or any other god, or no god at all.

Also Thor likely doesn't care about Gobbotopia at all on a personal level and he might not need any others to help him (we don't know his plan).

If the Dark One is thinking like I am he would would to be recognised as the new Eastern Pantheon and thereby get a senior seat at the main God table and be left alone to oversee a quarter of the world - with that he likely has achieved any aims he has (except petty revenge ones).

Sure, but on one hand we've had this reminder that the faction devoted to the Dark One has severely pissed off the Southern Gods, who voted to keep the world around...

......and we also have Roy's comments from earlier this book about how the interests of the gods might not align with those of the people of the world.

Even the refugee Azurites would prefer to let the Goblins keep Azure City, slaves and all, compared to the entire world getting blown up or, worse, consumed by the Snarl.

But for the gods, where this is try #242,215,849? A permanent status quo with that kind of god, well, might be better to kill him off by starving him of worshipers, rather than have him around forever...