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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Assuming for a moment that purple quiddity could be harvested from TDO's corpse, "fattening him up" would not involve any face-to-face interpantheon meetings. It would involve spreading his worship far and wide so that he'd get more belief and worship. (And dedication and souls, but those are long-term goals and killing too many followers too soon would hamper long term prospects for all four elements.) Nobody would be trying to visit him, and they'd all be blessing gobbotopia with abundance.

    "Fatten him up for slaughter" makes no sense. And "fatten him up so there's more to harvest after he starves to death" sounds like a massive contradiction.
    I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

    My Thinking: The Dark One (and us) lack perfect knowledge, he does know (we assume) that the Gods hid the Snarl from him, he might know that he could seal it off, he might suspect that they can seal it off using him and he might think that the only reason that they wouldn't ask him to do so immediately is if they have plans that don't require his consent.

    Do you disagree with any of that?

    As for harvesting him after he dies - that would be seperate - you seem to be linking too unlinked elements.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Carpenters are (by and large) not made out of carpentry (to my knowledge).
    Nor are gods made out of quiddity, to my knowledge. Perhaps a better analogy would be "I'm not going to sidle up to the carpenter's corpse for heat".
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    The simpler solution is that TDO doesn't trust the other gods because he was murdered during ostensible peace talks with other mortals and because he was attacked by other gods shortly after ascending. And now he's working on a plan that would severely screw over other gods. Not wanting to be murdered is plenty reason enough.

    But even ignoring the "fattening him up" metaphor I was extending, another proof by contradiction: assume that gods could harvest purple from TDO's divine corpse. Thor and Loki seem pretty convinced that if they don't take advantage of this god during this cycle then their chance will be lost for countless more ages if not forever, and none of the other godly opinions (on mobile so I can't link where Thor shows some other gods with their views) argue for the "kill him and harvest purple from his corpse" option. If it were viable, why are none of the parties we've seen using it as a backup plan?

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Fatten him up
    Fatten him up was specifically about why he might not meet them based on what he might feel/think/etc they might be planning - whether it is a suitable plan for them is besides the point (although Thor did mention that he was still weak when he ascended).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    If it were viable, why are none of the parties we've seen using it as a backup plan?
    They have never tested it because the situation has (seemingly) never occured before - they can't be sure it is viable, but they also can't be sure it is not.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Honestly, I doubt it. This story is not gonna end with all the characters dying.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    In a Silmarillion -like twist, TDO could imbue his essence into the existing world.
    To find in order to lose; To fall in order to stand up
    To freeze in order to ignite; To find myself within, and not fear the edge
    To die in order to be reborn to the new world

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSSheridan View Post
    In a Silmarillion -like twist, TDO could imbue his essence into the existing world.
    I can't find it but I thought it had been suggested in the comic that if they wanted the Dark One's purple essence to become a fundamental part of the world they'd have to unravel the world and build it anew.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    They have never tested it because the situation has (seemingly) never occured before - they can't be sure it is viable, but they also can't be sure it is not.
    Here's something I like to do in arguments: Refresh context. This time, the context I need is just the post which started this argument and the ones before it:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ginasius View Post
    What if the new quiddity brought by the Dark One requires the world to be remade?
    We've already been told by Thor that all it requires is a 9th level slot. Thor has also said that if the world were destroyed, The Dark One might not survive until it's time to make a new world.
    Theoretically if the Dark One doesn't survive the remaining gods might be able to use the 'purple' in his remains to secure reality (depending on what happens to dead gods) but even if possible it isn't really a plan that screams 'Thor' ... but I wouldn't be surprised if Loki, Rat Tiamat etc are considering backup plans.
    Breaking it down:
    1. [thread title]
    2. Thor said that TDO might not survive long enough to make a new world, and that this could lead to the gods not being able to use purple quiddity in it. Hence, if they had to make a new world, they would need TDO to survive until the next world regardless.
    3. If TDO didn't survive, maybe they could use his corpse? We don't know for certain that it's impossible, and if it is there are gods who might be making such a plan if Plan A fails.
    4. [unquoted criticism of prior point]
    5. They don't know if making something out of TDO's corpse is possible because this hasn't happened before.


    First off, that last point is wrong; the gods know what happens to dead gods (and if their quiddity is usable) because gods have starved to death before. But more importantly, so what?

    The main thrust of the argument is that, if the world needs to be remade, it doesn't matter whether TDO is in on it ahead of time; if he dies in the interim, he dies, and there's nothing that convincing him to help a little now would do to change that.
    If that were the case, literally the only thing at stake for the gods would be how long they can keep this world before making a world that works. This makes no sense, as Thor's whole plan (and his faction's arguments that they should move forward with it) revolve around preserving this world.

    Because of this, TDO's presence for making the new world must be required, which implies both A. the world doesn't need to be destroyed and remade, and B. if TDO dies, they can't use purple quiddity. B further implies that the gods can't use TDO's quiddity if he dies, any more than they could use the Eastern Gods' quiddity.

    Maybe the quiddity vanishes on death, leaving a husk of something that's not quiddity. (Gods aren't ephemeral like single-quiddity creations are, so there must be something holding them together.) Maybe the corpse itself disappears. Maybe gods just can't manipulate foreign quiddity unless it's tied to their kind. It doesn't matter—the evidence shows that TDO's survival is important, which means his death would be bad.


    Does the argument I've made make sense?
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  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Does the argument I've made make sense?
    Not to me no - but I am (somewhat)-inebriated so maybe I am missing important elements (like I imagine I am missing spelling and grammar etc).

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginasius View Post
    What if the new quiddity brought by the Dark One requires the world to be remade?
    This feels like a very clever way that the DM could mess up the story that Rich is writing.

    I therefore conclude that it isn't true.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    This feels like a very clever way that the DM could mess up the story that Rich is writing.
    To me, it feels like a way that the DM could mess up the story because they thought it was clever. I'm not sure where the actual cleverness in "You thought you were saving the world, but thanks to minutiae the gods deliberately concealed from you, the world was doomed all along!" could be. Though "everything is pointless and heroism is illusory" does sound like a theme appealing to edgelords with airs of pretension, a relatively common larval phase for DMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    I feel that it kinda does need to be remade. presently it is inferior to anything that could be made by present gods. current plan is simply to patch over ruptures with four color bandaids which basically means that some parts of the world will be better than others. it still doesn't change the fact that the Snarl appears to be unraveling the world from the inside.


    What would be better would be to make a four color planet someplace else that is an exact replica in physical appearance. Get the Dark One a seat at the godsmoot (a glaring problem to be sure and the reason for Durkon's pilgrimage; no proper channels of communication.). From there just teleport everyone over with a brief global mindwipe and you're good. Just need to make a new four color planet/cage over top the old planet. Snarl will get out of the planet but then it is already trapped.


    though I wonder...


    Are hobgoblins now four colored? Does the existence of a new Quiddity mean that new existence that didn't exist before is more real?

  13. - Top - End - #73

    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    No, since the creation of the world only involved gods of three quiddities. Adding a fourth requires a system wipe and OSRI.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcore View Post
    I feel that it kinda does need to be remade. presently it is inferior to anything that could be made by present gods. current plan is simply to patch over ruptures with four color bandaids which basically means that some parts of the world will be better than others. it still doesn't change the fact that the Snarl appears to be unraveling the world from the inside.
    No, but since no new rifts have formed since Soon et al sealed those five. Shojo is the third leader of the Sapphie Guard, and lead it for 47 years before Miko decided his throne needed a splash of red to contrast the omnipresent blues. If we assume his father and Soon, reigned for similar lengths of time, that's well over a century without new rifts. And if we trust Thor's numbers, we have millennia. And the Dark One can just spot-weld problems when they arise.

    What would be better would be to make a four color planet someplace else that is an exact replica in physical appearance. Get the Dark One a seat at the godsmoot (a glaring problem to be sure and the reason for Durkon's pilgrimage; no proper channels of communication.). From there just teleport everyone over with a brief global mindwipe and you're good. Just need to make a new four color planet/cage over top the old planet. Snarl will get out of the planet but then it is already trapped.
    If gods could casually just make new planets whenever, why wouldn't they keep a backup world apart from the Snarl to keep them alive during the lean eons? It sounds like there aren't a lot of "raw threads of reality" which aren't already used as building materials for some aspect of the world or another—otherwise, the gods could just plug the holes between realities with the spares. If there's not enough left over to make a few plugs, a backup cage is definitely out of the question.

    It feels like you're just inventing a problem that has already been accidentally solved by the description of the main plot.


    though I wonder...

    Are hobgoblins now four colored?
    Why would they be?
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