What if the new quiddity requires the world to be remade?

[Peelee]

I would be inclined to agree - however in this particular case while I think that Elan will have a happy ending at the end of the story, I wouldn't read to much into the War and XPs author commentary as that is a few years old and The Giant can deliver Elan a happy ending that might not be having everything be alright in the end.

Everyone dead and Elan and Haley on a cloud enjoying eternity together and all his friends safe while infinate new stories can be told on infinite new worlds might be a happy ending for him.

Although that does raise a thought ...

There are 'stars' in Snarl world, if they are not stars and instead other planets i.e those the Snarl devoured then all the devoured planets might still be functioning and moving on ... which could be a fairly rosy idea.

The general outline has been in place since around comic 100, IIRC, and while things have certainly moved and shifted and grown and lessened, I doubt something as important and impactful as the ending has changed to such an extent that the W&XPs commentary no longer applies.

[understatement]

Everyone dead and Elan and Haley on a cloud enjoying eternity together and all his friends safe while infinate new stories can be told on infinite new worlds might be a happy ending for him.

How would that make Elan have a happy ending? Everyone dead means countless children and babies are dead too, and this is coming from the same guy who won't even kill his evil twin.

[hroþila]

Remember that Elan asked whether this story would have a happy ending, not whether he would be happy at the end of the story. Those are very different things, especially for a bard.

[dancrilis]

The general outline has been in place since around comic 100, IIRC, and while things have certainly moved and shifted and grown and lessened, I doubt something as important and impactful as the ending has changed to such an extent that the W&XPs commentary no longer applies.

Fair enough - still dubious about how much weight the 'everything be alright in the end' should be given.

How would that make Elan have a happy ending? Everyone dead means countless children and babies are dead too, and this is coming from the same guy who won't even kill his evil twin.

Elan seems to be a forward thinker - he doesn't seem to dwell on things.

Remember that Elan asked whether this story would have a happy ending, not whether he would be happy at the end of the story. Those are very different things, especially for a bard.

Any way you can see the story having a happy ending where Elan is miserable or even just apathetic at the end?

[hroþila]

Any way you can see the story having a happy ending where Elan is miserable or even just apathetic at the end?

No, but I can easily see it working the other way around. Like the suggestion that Elan would still find happiness in a post-armageddon existence, or an older suggestion where Elan would willingly sacrifice himself to save the world, being happy with his choice but still permanently dead. Or any other possibilities that would amount at most to a bittersweet ending in Elan's professional bardic eyes. You're objecting to my quote in the wrong direction.

[dancrilis]

No

I actually was able to think of one - but it would be some nonsense like Elan being being unable to accept that the story has ended.

... but I can easily see it working the other way around. Like the suggestion that Elan would still find happiness in a post-armageddon existence, or an older suggestion where Elan would willingly sacrifice himself to save the world, being happy with his choice but still permanently dead. Or any other possibilities that would amount at most to a bittersweet ending in Elan's professional bardic eyes. You're objecting to my quote in the wrong direction.

The prophecy only confirmed that the story would have a happy ending for Elan - there is no guarantee for anyone else (except for how they may require one in order for him to have one).

[Peelee]

The prophecy only confirmed that the story would have a happy ending for Elan - there is no guarantee for anyone else (except for how they may require one in order for him to have one).

Aye, and that's the real rub.

[Squire Doodad]

Aye, and that's the real rub.

It still means that Haley needs to live, Roy needs either to live or have a truly epic heroic sacrifice, and odds are Durkon would live too.

I like those odds!

[Jepekula]

The prophecy only confirmed that the story would have a happy ending for Elan - there is no guarantee for anyone else (except for how they may require one in order for him to have one).

Not only that, the Oracle explicitly says "For you, at least", which very much hints at the possibility at one or more party members being met with bad ends.

I wonder who those people who end with bad ends would be? V already was met with one, with her being divorced by her husband and losing her family and all that. Even if she survives the story, she will not have a happy ending.

It can't be Durkon either, as Durkon pretty much doesn't care how things end up with himself. After all, when he hears that he will return to his homeland when he is dead (#331), he cries of joy for being buried next to his ancestors (#333), and when he learnt that the reason he was exiled was because a prophecy said he will return "with death and destruction", he was happy to hear that his exile was because of a reason, and not something made up by the current high priest. Pretty much any ending where the Dwarves and the Dwarven Pantheon survives is a happy ending for Durkon.

Haley, being Elan's romantic interest, most likely won't meet a bad end either, as she is, well, Elan's romantic interest. If I remember correctly, Elan's and Haley's romance had been hinted at way before #331, which also means that the characters had been in love with each other (unknowingly to the other party) before that, so she'll probably end up having a happy ending with Elan. Then again, it is possible to lose a lover and then have a happy rest of your life anyway, so it is semantically possible for Haley to die anyway or for Elan and Haley break up and Elan to have a happy rest of his life as a noted singer of poems with a family with a different woman. I do not think that option would be very probable, though.

That leaves us with Roy and Belkar. The Oracle said that Belkar would die before the end of the year, and not be resurrected (#572). So, well, Belkar will most certainly be met with a tragic end. I would guess that he will have some sort of heroic revelation moment and he sacrifices himself for the good of the party, even if only for the sake of Mr- Scruffy and Bloodfeast. That would certainly be a proper end to his character arc, unless done extraordinarily badly, which I think is below Mr. Burlew's capabilities.

I can't recall Roy having any prophecies or foreshadowings about his personal endings, so I suspect he will kill Xykon, survive the ordeal, have a family with Celia, and then have his son to become a Wizard to spite him off.

[Squire Doodad]

snip

I assumed the implications of someone not having a good ending to be applied to Belkar or V given the foreshadowing we've seen. Belkar's probably going to die for good, and V may live but they won't have a "happy" ending.

[Emanick]

I wonder who those people who end with bad ends would be? V already was met with one, with her being divorced by her husband and losing her family and all that. Even if she survives the story, she will not have a happy ending.

While I expect that you're right, it's still possible for V to have a happy ending if s/he redeems hirself sufficiently during the final book. After all is said and done, Inkyrius may take V in again and forgive hir. Drama-wise, though, I think that this is unlikely unless V makes a sacrifice of sufficient magnitude, such as if V loses all spellcasting ability as a result of casting disjunction on the Crimson Mantle, or something.

[Solauren]

That's not a big problem...
All the gods work together, and planeshift everything off. Basically, complete evacuation.

Then they unmake the world, and then remake it with the Dark Ones assistance. Or make a new one. Either way, the Dark One is involved, and the Goblinoids get a homeland out of it.
Then, if the world was remade as it was (With Azure City recreated off of Elven Lands, and the old Azure City as a new Goblin city), they send everyone back where they were originally.

If they made a new world, they drop everyone off, one massive 'Sending' to everyone, and people start building a new world.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It takes a very long time for the Snarl to calm down enough for the gods to reweave the prison planet around it. Long enough for everybody but the oldest elves and dragons to be dead of old age. Their descendants won't care what the world looks like, because to them it has no meaning.

Besides, the gods don't care about mortal lives. Just their souls, since that's what they eat.

[hamishspence]

Actually, there are four things gods "eat" - only one of which is souls - and they need all 4 to be healthy.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

[dancrilis]

That's not a big problem...
All the gods work together, and planeshift everything off.
...
If they made a new world, they drop everyone off

Or they do what they have done every other time and kill everyone and start over with four colours - frankly if the planeshift everyone off and but them back plan was viable you would imagine that a) they would have done that with previous worlds and b) thatthe new Deities would have made the transition due to having living worshipers.

Actually, there are four things gods "eat" - only one of which is souls - and they need all 4 to be healthy.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

They don't really eat souls, more use them to power the house, which is better I guess - although I do wonder how they functioned before the first world.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Stored energy from their creation, I guess.

[hamishspence]

They don't really eat souls, more use them to power the house, which is better I guess .

The process of doing so, eventually rids souls of individuality:

"Spiritual enlightenment" in this case means giving up attachments to the world and accepting that you are no longer part of it. If anything, it is essentially unlearning things; becoming less of an individual with a unique perspective and more of a pure embodiment of alignment. Horace is a little further on that path than Sarah because he's not still engaging in things like random hook-ups, because he understands that nothing matters anymore when you're dead. It is not some sort of eternal learning experience; it's letting go of everything you learned because you don't need it anymore. That is the only change available to dead souls.



Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

[dancrilis]

The process of doing so, eventually rids souls of individuality:

Which still seems better then being a cosmic snack.

I do kindof wonder if you can get away if you have access to Plane Shift (or the like), when these guys (panel 7) attacked Roy and family seemed to be solid and normal - so if Durkon had used plane shift he might have been able to speak to Roy and bring him back (and possibly meetup with Haley for that matter).

But such would likely break the narrative a little (just like Xykon/Redcloak/The Order plane shifting up to Celestia to let Eugene make a couple of unarmed attacks against him while he Epic scrys fo the gate - or back in the day the phylactery).

[Jepekula]

While I expect that you're right, it's still possible for V to have a happy ending if s/he redeems hirself sufficiently during the final book. After all is said and done, Inkyrius may take V in again and forgive hir. Drama-wise, though, I think that this is unlikely unless V makes a sacrifice of sufficient magnitude, such as if V loses all spellcasting ability as a result of casting disjunction on the Crimson Mantle, or something.

It is certainly possible, but I would say that it would not be a narratively satisfying ending. She had her chance to be with her family. She chose to keep chasing power. Her to be able to go back to her family and not learn and lose anything from her mistakes would not be as satisfying as her having to learn the hard way that power for power's sake is empty. The only ending I can imagine for her is to live the rest of her life in seclusion, either learning that power means nothing except as a means, or eschewing the use of magic for good. And I don't find the latter to be likely at all.

[Anymage]

Which still seems better then being a cosmic snack.

I do kindof wonder if you can get away if you have access to Plane Shift (or the like), when these guys (panel 7) attacked Roy and family seemed to be solid and normal - so if Durkon had used plane shift he might have been able to speak to Roy and bring him back (and possibly meetup with Haley for that matter).

But such would likely break the narrative a little (just like Xykon/Redcloak/The Order plane shifting up to Celestia to let Eugene make a couple of unarmed attacks against him while he Epic scrys fo the gate - or back in the day the phylactery).

You personally? Probably. Relatively few people will be able to pull it off, and there'll be little practical difference for most people between being able to bodily transport to another plane and having their body destroyed and their soul transferred. After all, the body will eventually die and then you'll wind up in the same boat as everybody else.

In the sense of making assumptions that further the plot? Someone who only consumes the soulstuff of the outer planes instead of the physical matter of the prime will eventually shift towards becoming an outsider. (Or elemental, if you happen to find a comfortable place to stay on one of the inner planes. Extrapolate for ethereal/astral as you see fit.) It may not be significant enough to change a human's life before they die of old age, but it keeps elves and dragons from having an eternal out and more important applies to lineages. Your kid will be a little more outsiderish than you were, their kids a little more outsiderish still, and so on until you have a bunch of outsiders who are indistinguishable from other outsiders. Practical upshot being that you can't meaningfully have a group of belief generating humanoids stuffed in a pocket dimension while the primary world gets torn apart. Otherwise, the gods are smart. They would've done that so they wouldn't be so reliant on continually generating worlds with fatal design flaws trapped inside.

[dancrilis]

You personally? Probably. Relatively few people will be able to pull it off, and there'll be little practical difference for most people between being able to bodily transport to another plane and having their body destroyed and their soul transferred. After all, the body will eventually die and then you'll wind up in the same boat as everybody else.

In the sense of making assumptions that further the plot? Someone who only consumes the soulstuff of the outer planes instead of the physical matter of the prime will eventually shift towards becoming an outsider. (Or elemental, if you happen to find a comfortable place to stay on one of the inner planes. Extrapolate for ethereal/astral as you see fit.) It may not be significant enough to change a human's life before they die of old age, but it keeps elves and dragons from having an eternal out and more important applies to lineages. Your kid will be a little more outsiderish than you were, their kids a little more outsiderish still, and so on until you have a bunch of outsiders who are indistinguishable from other outsiders. Practical upshot being that you can't meaningfully have a group of belief generating humanoids stuffed in a pocket dimension while the primary world gets torn apart. Otherwise, the gods are smart. They would've done that so they wouldn't be so reliant on continually generating worlds with fatal design flaws trapped inside.

I am not sure if you understood me correctly or if I am understanding you correctly.

I do kindof wonder if you can get away if you have access to Plane Shift (or the like) ...

I am not talking about getting away from the material plane I am talking a out getting away from the afterlife planes (in the same method that others can access them).

[Anymage]

I am not sure if you understood me correctly or if I am understanding you correctly.


I am not talking about getting away from the material plane I am talking a out getting away from the afterlife planes (in the same method that others can access them).

Ahh. Fair. I've just seen too many people use the "have the gods plane shift everyone away from the world, that way everyone can live" threads.

As for souls plane shifting away? My hunch - not really backed by anything Rich has said, because he hasn't said much on the topic - is that it's physically possible but with two caveats;

First, there are probably regulations for travel. If everybody lives a happy life, gains a bunch of levels, and eventually dies of old age then Julia could cast Plane Shift to see Roy, but she'd probably have to explain her reasoning and wait until whatever relevant tourist visa comes through. Even chaotic planes like limbo would accept that, because the alternative would be letting visitors from other planes impress their expectations and alignment on your plane even if only in tiny ways.

Second, your proper outer plane feels right for you. The world works the way you always expected that it did, and people generally see things the same way that you do. (Low levels who wind up in the lower planes might not like that they're the low men on the totem pole, but they also aren't high enough level to cast plane shift. If you can cast plane shift, you're powerful enough that you can have fun punching down at others.) On top of that, time becomes a lot more fluid when biology doesn't hamper you. So you want to keep hanging out there because everything feels right to you, and every step in the change towards dissolution into the plane feels like a normal and natural evolution as it happens.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If the world had to be destroyed (and then remade) to use TDO's quiddity, it would be a shocking deviation from expectations. This alone does not mean it won't happen; Rich has done unexpected things before. But those unexpected things have always had a purpose.

What would the purpose be of needing to destroy the world to stop the world from being destroyed? For the gods, obviously the answer is "So it won't be destroyed next time". But what about the mortals, and more importantly, the audience? Suddenly the cosmic conflict over the Rifts turns out to have been all but pointless. The world that the Order was fighting to save, and everyone in it that they were fighting for, were always doomed.

There are stories where that kind of quasi-nihilistic conclusion would fit naturally, or even be the only reasonable ending. The Order of the Stick is not one of them.

(Also, Elan is going to get a happy ending. And the one he realized wasn't actually happy doesn't count.)

[Quartz]

What if the new quiddity brought by the Dark One requires the world to be remade?

We've already been told by Thor that all it requires is a 9th level slot. Thor has also said that if the world were destroyed, The Dark One might not survive until it's time to make a new world.

[dancrilis]

We've already been told by Thor that all it requires is a 9th level slot. Thor has also said that if the world were destroyed, The Dark One might not survive until it's time to make a new world.

Theoretically if the Dark One doesn't survive the remaining gods might be able to use the 'purple' in his remains to secure reality (depending on what happens to dead gods) but even if possible it isn't really a plan that screams 'Thor' ... but I wouldn't be surprised if Loki, Rat Tiamat etc are considering backup plans.

[Peelee]

Theoretically if the Dark One doesn't survive the remaining gods might be able to use the 'purple' in his remains to secure reality

I would imagine that'd have the same efficacy as my using the caprentry skils in the remains of a dead carpenter to build a new deck.

[Anymage]

We've already been told by Thor that all it requires is a 9th level slot.

For a single patch. Longer term, you'll want TDO to be on board. Using RC to make an end-run around TDO right now is basically saying "this is in your boss's best interest, but he isn't returning our calls. Can you help patch up this immediate problem and then see if you can go talk him down?"

(Where I can think of three immediate reasons that plan won't go through; there's a lot of book left, RC is so invested into The Plan due to sunk cost fallacy that he'll be hard to dissuade, and there's almost certainly some surprise left to be revealed with TDO that will throw a monkey wrench into things. But at least this interpretation doesn't require anybody to act wildly out of character.)

Theoretically if the Dark One doesn't survive the remaining gods might be able to use the 'purple' in his remains to secure reality (depending on what happens to dead gods) but even if possible it isn't really a plan that screams 'Thor' ... but I wouldn't be surprised if Loki, Rat Tiamat etc are considering backup plans.

I had a long rebuttal to this written out about how dead gods are more likely to fade into nonexistence than to leave meaningfully usable corpses (see the black hole terminology used, or more relevantly Hel's fading after overexerting herself), but then I realized the biggest drawback. If quiddity were some physical substance that you could wring out of a god's corpse, someone would've gathered the stores from the the corpses of the easterners long ago and used that to shore up the world.

The easterners are long gone, and green quiddity is gone with them. If TDO starves to death during the interim between worlds, purple will be just as gone as green. And while it might be theoretically possible to bring either back, I don't see either happening in practice.

[Peelee]

For a single patch. Longer term, you'll want TDO to be on board. Using RC to make an end-run around TDO right now is basically saying "this is in your boss's best interest, but he isn't returning our calls. Can you help patch up this immediate problem and then see if you can go talk him down?"

As I've argued elsewhere, I see no reason to think they are wanting RC to make an end-run around TDO, but rather issue an inter-departmental memo so that the boss can be informed.

[dancrilis]

The easterners are long gone, and green quiddity is gone with them.

We know there is still Green quiddity around - the Snarl has it, and also incidentally has the corpses of those who initially had it.

I am not however saying it is a plan - merely that it might be, we just don't know (and the gods might not either), which might be one reason that the Dark One is unwilling to meet any of them - if he felt they were fattening him up for harvest avoiding them is a sensible plan.

I would imagine that'd have the same efficacy as my using the caprentry skils in the remains of a dead carpenter to build a new deck.

Carpenters are (by and large) not made out of carpentry (to my knowledge).

[Anymage]

As I've argued elsewhere, I see no reason to think they are wanting RC to make an end-run around TDO, but rather issue an inter-departmental memo so that the boss can be informed.

There's approximately zero chance that RC would team up with either Durkon or Thor if he thought it was against TDO's best interests, and both Thor and Durkon should understand that asking a priest to go against their god's interests is not going to go over well. So "screw TDO, just use the ninth level slot and everything's fixed" is a nonstarter.

Priests are empowered to act on their gods behalf, in cases where the non-omniscient, non-omnipresent stickverse gods might not even be aware. Asking RC to send the memo but then help put out the fire instead of waiting on the response makes more sense. The ninth level slot option wouldn't even be mentioned if RC could expect instant turnaround on any communication.

Basically pointing out that the "have RC chip in a slot" option would require convincing him that doing so would be in the best interests of TDO/The Plan/the goblinoid people, which cuts out any plan that ignores one or more of those elements.

I am not however saying it is a plan - merely that it might be, we just don't know (and the gods might not either), which might be one reason that the Dark One is unwilling to meet any of them - if he felt they were fattening him up for harvest avoiding them is a sensible plan.

Assuming for a moment that purple quiddity could be harvested from TDO's corpse, "fattening him up" would not involve any face-to-face interpantheon meetings. It would involve spreading his worship far and wide so that he'd get more belief and worship. (And dedication and souls, but those are long-term goals and killing too many followers too soon would hamper long term prospects for all four elements.) Nobody would be trying to visit him, and they'd all be blessing gobbotopia with abundance.

"Fatten him up for slaughter" makes no sense. And "fatten him up so there's more to harvest after he starves to death" sounds like a massive contradiction.