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Thread: Ponderings:

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    Default Ponderings:

    Lord Soon nearly had Redcloak and Xykon dead.

    If Miko stayed unconscious the entire fight and never destroyed the gem, Soon looked like he was about to win that battle and kill them both.

    If Lord Soon had managed it, would he have technically doomed the world, due to the fact 9th level spells of purple quiddity are no longer available?

    ...Did Miko accidentally give the world a chance to be saved by stopping him?

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    I think she rolled the clock back and forth on that one. Her actions let Redcloak (Xykon is irrelevant here) live, so that the possibility of saving the world is preserved since he's the highest-level, but she also destroyed the gate, which pushed the deadline for the gods in the first place.

    In any case, it doesn't matter for her: both intentions and actions are important, after all.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Lord Soon nearly had Redcloak and Xykon dead.
    I am dubious about that.

    If Miko stayed unconscious the entire fight and never destroyed the gem, Soon looked like he was about to win that battle and kill them both.

    If Lord Soon had managed it, would he have technically doomed the world, due to the fact 9th level spells of purple quiddity are no longer available?

    ...Did Miko accidentally give the world a chance to be saved by stopping him?
    Killing Redcloak with three gates remaining would have allowed the Order to possibly begin the quest to seal the open gates (although the IFCC would have still be activated) and so the world may not have been doomed (or not soon anyway) and as such there would be other opportunities for a cleric of the Dark One to learn 9th level spells (and it may have worked to bring him back to the table potentially).

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I am dubious about that.
    I'm not ; Reddie and X certainly seemed to think they were done for. They definitely had no fight left, while Soon was still rarin' and ready to go.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm not ; Reddie and X certainly seemed to think they were done for. They definitely had no fight left, while Soon was still rarin' and ready to go.
    I agree that is how it seemed - but all Xykon needed was one turn to escape (and with Redcloak at that) and I am not sure he was one hit away from destruction - and if he was then either Soon had no AOO left to do it or he missed with it when Xykon did move to escape.

    Narratively I don't see Xykon (or Redcloak) facing certain destruction/death there even if Miko hadn't entered the room.
    Rules wise it seems Soon was not able to finish them off when he would have otherwise had a free attack (unless he had already used it).

    Hence dubious.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I agree that is how it seemed - but all Xykon needed was one turn to escape (and with Redcloak at that) and I am not sure he was one hit away from destruction - and if he was then either Soon had no AOO left to do it or he missed with it when Xykon did move to escape.

    Narratively I don't see Xykon (or Redcloak) facing certain destruction/death there even if Miko hadn't entered the room.
    Rules wise it seems Soon was not able to finish them off when he would have otherwise had a free attack (unless he had already used it).

    Hence dubious.
    Given that Xykon didn't teleport when he had that one turn, I doubt he had the capability anymore. And, again, I see no reason to doubt Xykon and Redcloak, who talk as if they are going to die, since they would certainly know more about it than I would.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Given that Xykon didn't teleport when he had that one turn, I doubt he had the capability anymore. And, again, I see no reason to doubt Xykon and Redcloak, who talk as if they are going to die, since they would certainly know more about it than I would.
    The scene was certainly presented as if they were doomed - I do grant that, but if Xykon would have fled (as he did) once it was his turn I am not sure Soon could stop him.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I agree that is how it seemed - but all Xykon needed was one turn to escape (and with Redcloak at that) and I am not sure he was one hit away from destruction - and if he was then either Soon had no AOO left to do it or he missed with it when Xykon did move to escape.

    Narratively I don't see Xykon (or Redcloak) facing certain destruction/death there even if Miko hadn't entered the room.
    Rules wise it seems Soon was not able to finish them off when he would have otherwise had a free attack (unless he had already used it).

    Hence dubious.
    Narratively, I'm pretty sure we're meant to think that Soon is on the verge of victory, otherwise the impact of Miko screwing things up and Soon's kind words in spite of that is severely diminished.
    Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2020-06-22 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Regardless, Miko is directly responsible for Redcloak's survival, and that's pretty important at the moment. The next cleric of the Dark One might be a whole lot less reasonable.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    The scene was certainly presented as if they were doomed - I do grant that, but if Xykon would have fled (as he did) once it was his turn I am not sure Soon could stop him.
    Soon stops him mid-flee (or, at least, that's his I see the art in that panel).
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Soon stops him mid-flee (or, at least, that's his I see the art in that panel).
    My thinking is that Soon missed in panel 1 (showing that hitting Xykon is not a given), Xykon then moves, Soon gets a few attacks off, and it is Miko's turn, followed by Xykon's turn - and whether the AOO hit or missed (or was not taken) Xykon escapes.

    Is it possible that Soon would have finished them off - yes, is it heavilly implied that he would have finished them off - yes, would he have finished them off - I am dubious.

    For instance had Miko not been present to destroy the gate, and had no other distractions occured I suspect that Xykon would have still fled and a withdraw action avoids AOO and if Soon is bound to the room might have taken Xykon out of it.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    For instance had Miko not been present to destroy the gate, and had no other distractions occured I suspect that Xykon would have still fled and a withdraw action avoids AOO and if Soon is bound to the room might have taken Xykon out of it.
    A withdraw action only prevents attacks of opportunity for the square you start out in. Soon is in Xykon's space, so Xykon can move to an adjacent square without provoking an attack of opportunity. That's still within Soon's reach, though; so if he tries to move any farther, that'll provoke an attack of opportunity normally.

    Normally I'd say Xykon would be better off taking a five foot step (which also prevents attacks of opportunity) and then casting defensively; but the timing of Xykon's spell fizzling makes me think Soon has Spellcasting Harrier or Mage Slayer or Spellsplinter or something.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    My thinking is that Soon missed in panel 1 (showing that hitting Xykon is not a given), Xykon then moves, Soon gets a few attacks off, and it is Miko's turn, followed by Xykon's turn - and whether the AOO hit or missed (or was not taken) Xykon escapes.

    Is it possible that Soon would have finished them off - yes, is it heavilly implied that he would have finished them off - yes, would he have finished them off - I am dubious.

    For instance had Miko not been present to destroy the gate, and had no other distractions occured I suspect that Xykon would have still fled and a withdraw action avoids AOO and if Soon is bound to the room might have taken Xykon out of it.
    Xykon and Redcloak were prone, so they can't take full-round move actions. Getting up triggers AoO. Even if they could Withdraw, moving out of a threatened square still triggers AoO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    A withdraw action only prevents attacks of opportunity for the square you start out in. Soon is in Xykon's space, so Xykon can move to an adjacent square without provoking an attack of opportunity. That's still within Soon's reach, though; so if he tries to move any farther, that'll provoke an attack of opportunity normally.
    3d combat is something I am not great at in DnD you threaten the 8 squares around you - do you also threaten the 18 below and above you? Do you threaten the square you are standing on?
    Normally I understand that two medium creatures cannot occupy the same square.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Xykon and Redcloak were prone, so they can't take full-round move actions. Getting up triggers AoO. Even if they could Withdraw, moving out of a threatened square still triggers AoO.
    You don't need a full round action to take a withdraw action - a standard action would do.
    But as I am not sure he was one hit from destruction even if he just moves as fast as he can it is not really relevant.

    Here we see that Redcloak needed a cleric to move, but Xykon seemed fairly fine, certainly better then he looked here and he seems to have been basically fine there also.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    3d combat is something I am not great at in DnD you threaten the 8 squares around you - do you also threaten the 18 below and above you? Do you threaten the square you are standing on?
    Normally I understand that two medium creatures cannot occupy the same square.
    The rules assume a battle mat, so they do tend to be written assuming 2D combat in most places. That said....

    • Yes; flying creatures can make melee attacks, so they can threaten squares. The "adjacent (including diagonally)" would apply in three dimensions much as it does in two.
    • Yes, you threaten your own space. Indeed, Tiny and smaller creatures only threaten their own space.
    • It's generally true that two Medium creatures can't occupy the same square unless one of them is helpless or they're grappling; but this is weird all around because of Soon's incorporeality, and because Xykon looks helpless for some reason. In any case, I really can't condone looking at Soon right over Xykon and denying that they're in the same square; no matter the reason (nor if I don't know what the reason is).


    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Xykon and Redcloak were prone, so they can't take full-round move actions. Getting up triggers AoO. Even if they could Withdraw, moving out of a threatened square still triggers AoO.
    You don't need a full round action to take a withdraw action - a standard action would do.
    In this particular situation it would not: if Xykon is able to take a full round action on his turn, withdrawing takes a full round action; he wouldn't be able to withdraw if he spent a move/standard action on something else, like standing up from prone. That said, I'm not convinced that magical flight would necessitate standing up first.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2020-06-22 at 08:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    I am unclear as to why you are arguing that maybe something hypothetically could have allowed Redcloak and Xykon to get away, when they clearly were trying to get away and failed.

    edit: to dancrilis
    Last edited by Ruck; 2020-06-22 at 08:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I am unclear as to why you are arguing that maybe something hypothetically could have allowed Redcloak and Xykon to get away, when they clearly were trying to get away and failed.

    edit: to dancrilis
    They didn't fail - they got away, panel 11, also panel 1.

    As for arguing I amn't really - I stated I was dubious if 'Soon nearly had Redcloak and Xykon dead' (with 'nearly had' being synonymous with 'would have'), Peelee said they were not (presumedly with the same understanding of 'nearly had' in this context). I have explained why I was dubious while acknowledging that:
    Is it possible that Soon would have finished them off - yes, is it heavilly implied that he would have finished them off - yes
    Jasdoif highlighted how on rules I might be incorrect and Gift Jeraff on how the narrative elements were likely meant to be seen (although that was on more on how we were meant to see the scene which I already acknowledge).

    This isn't an argument this is merely a discussion (one where I am likely outnumbered and likely outclassed on) - still I see no reason to assume that Xykon was absolutely certainly doomed there if Miko had not acted.
    Let us assume that Miko had not escaped her cell, and no one else interfered - do you think the story would have been Soon won everyone else was not needed - or do you think it more likely that Xykon fled (with or without Redcloak) and Soon knowing that he would return prepared would decide to destroy the gate himself?
    Xykon escaping does not seem to break the rules of the game (such as they might be applied) and also doesn't break the story - so Miko's actions were largely irrelevant.
    Unless you believe that Soon was absolutely going to hit Xykon and absolutely going to destroy him with one more attack.

    I don't expect anyone else to adopt this view.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Ever ran a campaign where your big bad evil guy gets murdered by the heroes about 5 sessions before you expected him to, due to a PC getting some well times crits?

    Soon killing Xykon and/or Redcloak is like that. If he wins and kills them, it's because he happened to be rolling well that day.

    Assuming Miko was a PC, the 'DM' couldn't possibly have known she'd save the villains by destroying the gate, so the 'DM' was probably thinking up new villains in the back of his head.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Ever ran a campaign where your big bad evil guy gets murdered by the heroes about 5 sessions before you expected him to, due to a PC getting some well times crits?

    Soon killing Xykon and/or Redcloak is like that. If he wins and kills them, it's because he happened to be rolling well that day.

    Assuming Miko was a PC, the 'DM' couldn't possibly have known she'd save the villains by destroying the gate, so the 'DM' was probably thinking up new villains in the back of his head.
    If we are going that route then I think if anyone was the PCs in that scene it was Xykon and Redcloak (in which case you could say they were save via deus ex machina - although I would disagree).

    On topic (and outside the whole Soon would/wouldn't have ended Xykon element of the topic) I did answer the core of your actual topic if you want to discuss that.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    It’s pretty clear from the exposition in the story that he would’ve killed them if Miko hasn’t smashed the gate. And Miko isn’t a PC.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Well, we did see from Gobbotopia that there are other clerics of the Dark One, they're just much lower level. Still puts the Order in the position of waiting till one of them is high enough level to cast 9th level spells. Could even put that cleric in the position of working with the Order just to level up.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Well, we did see from Gobbotopia that there are other clerics of the Dark One, they're just much lower level. Still puts the Order in the position of waiting till one of them is high enough level to cast 9th level spells. Could even put that cleric in the position of working with the Order just to level up.
    Considering it took Redcloak over 30 years to reach level 17, the world may or may not have that time (especially with two rifts open).

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    True. So, I dunno. Did Miko save the world (entirely by accident?)

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    True. So, I dunno. Did Miko save the world (entirely by accident?)
    Well, only two Gates would have been destroyed, so the time limit for the world would be upped a bit, most likely. If Durkon died for any other reason and got resurrected, Thor could still impart the plan, except now Durkon (and presumably most of the rest of the Order, if not all of them) would have a vested interest in helping a goblin cleric gain enough prominence and XP to be able to participate and parley with The Dark One.

    So I'd say Miko didn't save the world so much as she hastened the deadline for everything to get done. Not the worst thing... but a good chance that things would probably have been better if she hadn't done it.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    That is the upside of Miko not doing it...the order could've had a goblin cleric long term. Imagine the banter that'd cause.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    That's why the gods stripped her paladin powers and then let her escape.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Not sure the 12 gods had QUITE that much foresight. Maybe, they are gods after all.

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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Not sure the 12 gods had QUITE that much foresight. Maybe, they are gods after all.
    I think that the previous book establishes definitely that being a god doesn’t guarantee squat in the foresight department.

    Besides, there would hardly be a story if it did.
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    Default Re: Ponderings:

    Redcloak dying would have meant TDO would be left without a chance to fulfill his plan, and without the plan he may be far more willing to talk and cooperate with the other Gods. They need him, he wants something from them, so eventually they'd be bound to negotiate. I believe he only shunned them because he knew he had a better way to deal with them.

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