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Thread: Ponderings:
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2020-06-22, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Ponderings:
Lord Soon nearly had Redcloak and Xykon dead.
If Miko stayed unconscious the entire fight and never destroyed the gem, Soon looked like he was about to win that battle and kill them both.
If Lord Soon had managed it, would he have technically doomed the world, due to the fact 9th level spells of purple quiddity are no longer available?
...Did Miko accidentally give the world a chance to be saved by stopping him?
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2020-06-22, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: Ponderings:
I think she rolled the clock back and forth on that one. Her actions let Redcloak (Xykon is irrelevant here) live, so that the possibility of saving the world is preserved since he's the highest-level, but she also destroyed the gate, which pushed the deadline for the gods in the first place.
In any case, it doesn't matter for her: both intentions and actions are important, after all.
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2020-06-22, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Ponderings:
I am dubious about that.
If Miko stayed unconscious the entire fight and never destroyed the gem, Soon looked like he was about to win that battle and kill them both.
If Lord Soon had managed it, would he have technically doomed the world, due to the fact 9th level spells of purple quiddity are no longer available?
...Did Miko accidentally give the world a chance to be saved by stopping him?
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2020-06-22, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Washington D.C.
- Gender
Re: Ponderings:
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-06-22, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Ponderings:
I agree that is how it seemed - but all Xykon needed was one turn to escape (and with Redcloak at that) and I am not sure he was one hit away from destruction - and if he was then either Soon had no AOO left to do it or he missed with it when Xykon did move to escape.
Narratively I don't see Xykon (or Redcloak) facing certain destruction/death there even if Miko hadn't entered the room.
Rules wise it seems Soon was not able to finish them off when he would have otherwise had a free attack (unless he had already used it).
Hence dubious.
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2020-06-22, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Ponderings:
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-06-22, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
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2020-06-22, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Ponderings:
Last edited by Gift Jeraff; 2020-06-22 at 06:01 PM.
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2020-06-22, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
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Re: Ponderings:
Regardless, Miko is directly responsible for Redcloak's survival, and that's pretty important at the moment. The next cleric of the Dark One might be a whole lot less reasonable.
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2020-06-22, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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2020-06-22, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Ponderings:
My thinking is that Soon missed in panel 1 (showing that hitting Xykon is not a given), Xykon then moves, Soon gets a few attacks off, and it is Miko's turn, followed by Xykon's turn - and whether the AOO hit or missed (or was not taken) Xykon escapes.
Is it possible that Soon would have finished them off - yes, is it heavilly implied that he would have finished them off - yes, would he have finished them off - I am dubious.
For instance had Miko not been present to destroy the gate, and had no other distractions occured I suspect that Xykon would have still fled and a withdraw action avoids AOO and if Soon is bound to the room might have taken Xykon out of it.
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2020-06-22, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Ponderings:
A withdraw action only prevents attacks of opportunity for the square you start out in. Soon is in Xykon's space, so Xykon can move to an adjacent square without provoking an attack of opportunity. That's still within Soon's reach, though; so if he tries to move any farther, that'll provoke an attack of opportunity normally.
Normally I'd say Xykon would be better off taking a five foot step (which also prevents attacks of opportunity) and then casting defensively; but the timing of Xykon's spell fizzling makes me think Soon has Spellcasting Harrier or Mage Slayer or Spellsplinter or something.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-06-22, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Washington D.C.
- Gender
Re: Ponderings:
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-06-22, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Ponderings:
3d combat is something I am not great at in DnD you threaten the 8 squares around you - do you also threaten the 18 below and above you? Do you threaten the square you are standing on?
Normally I understand that two medium creatures cannot occupy the same square.
You don't need a full round action to take a withdraw action - a standard action would do.
But as I am not sure he was one hit from destruction even if he just moves as fast as he can it is not really relevant.
Here we see that Redcloak needed a cleric to move, but Xykon seemed fairly fine, certainly better then he looked here and he seems to have been basically fine there also.
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2020-06-22, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Ponderings:
The rules assume a battle mat, so they do tend to be written assuming 2D combat in most places. That said....
- Yes; flying creatures can make melee attacks, so they can threaten squares. The "adjacent (including diagonally)" would apply in three dimensions much as it does in two.
- Yes, you threaten your own space. Indeed, Tiny and smaller creatures only threaten their own space.
- It's generally true that two Medium creatures can't occupy the same square unless one of them is helpless or they're grappling; but this is weird all around because of Soon's incorporeality, and because Xykon looks helpless for some reason. In any case, I really can't condone looking at Soon right over Xykon and denying that they're in the same square; no matter the reason (nor if I don't know what the reason is).
In this particular situation it would not: if Xykon is able to take a full round action on his turn, withdrawing takes a full round action; he wouldn't be able to withdraw if he spent a move/standard action on something else, like standing up from prone. That said, I'm not convinced that magical flight would necessitate standing up first.Last edited by Jasdoif; 2020-06-22 at 08:41 PM.
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-06-22, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Ponderings:
I am unclear as to why you are arguing that maybe something hypothetically could have allowed Redcloak and Xykon to get away, when they clearly were trying to get away and failed.
edit: to dancrilisLast edited by Ruck; 2020-06-22 at 08:00 PM.
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2020-06-22, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Ponderings:
They didn't fail - they got away, panel 11, also panel 1.
As for arguing I amn't really - I stated I was dubious if 'Soon nearly had Redcloak and Xykon dead' (with 'nearly had' being synonymous with 'would have'), Peelee said they were not (presumedly with the same understanding of 'nearly had' in this context). I have explained why I was dubious while acknowledging that:
Is it possible that Soon would have finished them off - yes, is it heavilly implied that he would have finished them off - yes
This isn't an argument this is merely a discussion (one where I am likely outnumbered and likely outclassed on) - still I see no reason to assume that Xykon was absolutely certainly doomed there if Miko had not acted.
Let us assume that Miko had not escaped her cell, and no one else interfered - do you think the story would have been Soon won everyone else was not needed - or do you think it more likely that Xykon fled (with or without Redcloak) and Soon knowing that he would return prepared would decide to destroy the gate himself?
Xykon escaping does not seem to break the rules of the game (such as they might be applied) and also doesn't break the story - so Miko's actions were largely irrelevant.
Unless you believe that Soon was absolutely going to hit Xykon and absolutely going to destroy him with one more attack.
I don't expect anyone else to adopt this view.
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2020-06-22, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Ponderings:
Ever ran a campaign where your big bad evil guy gets murdered by the heroes about 5 sessions before you expected him to, due to a PC getting some well times crits?
Soon killing Xykon and/or Redcloak is like that. If he wins and kills them, it's because he happened to be rolling well that day.
Assuming Miko was a PC, the 'DM' couldn't possibly have known she'd save the villains by destroying the gate, so the 'DM' was probably thinking up new villains in the back of his head.
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2020-06-22, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Ponderings:
If we are going that route then I think if anyone was the PCs in that scene it was Xykon and Redcloak (in which case you could say they were save via deus ex machina - although I would disagree).
On topic (and outside the whole Soon would/wouldn't have ended Xykon element of the topic) I did answer the core of your actual topic if you want to discuss that.
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2020-06-22, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
Re: Ponderings:
It’s pretty clear from the exposition in the story that he would’ve killed them if Miko hasn’t smashed the gate. And Miko isn’t a PC.
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2020-06-22, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Ponderings:
Well, we did see from Gobbotopia that there are other clerics of the Dark One, they're just much lower level. Still puts the Order in the position of waiting till one of them is high enough level to cast 9th level spells. Could even put that cleric in the position of working with the Order just to level up.
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2020-06-22, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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2020-06-22, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Ponderings:
True. So, I dunno. Did Miko save the world (entirely by accident?)
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2020-06-23, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: Ponderings:
Well, only two Gates would have been destroyed, so the time limit for the world would be upped a bit, most likely. If Durkon died for any other reason and got resurrected, Thor could still impart the plan, except now Durkon (and presumably most of the rest of the Order, if not all of them) would have a vested interest in helping a goblin cleric gain enough prominence and XP to be able to participate and parley with The Dark One.
So I'd say Miko didn't save the world so much as she hastened the deadline for everything to get done. Not the worst thing... but a good chance that things would probably have been better if she hadn't done it.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-06-23, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Ponderings:
That is the upside of Miko not doing it...the order could've had a goblin cleric long term. Imagine the banter that'd cause.
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2020-06-23, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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Re: Ponderings:
That's why the gods stripped her paladin powers and then let her escape.
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2020-06-24, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
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Re: Ponderings:
Not sure the 12 gods had QUITE that much foresight. Maybe, they are gods after all.
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2020-06-25, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Ponderings:
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-06-25, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Ponderings:
Redcloak dying would have meant TDO would be left without a chance to fulfill his plan, and without the plan he may be far more willing to talk and cooperate with the other Gods. They need him, he wants something from them, so eventually they'd be bound to negotiate. I believe he only shunned them because he knew he had a better way to deal with them.