Kineticist Problems - did I find them all?

[NightbringerGGZ]

I'd point out that in addition to most talents being weak, the levels at which you gain talents is a bit awkward and leads to swings in effectiveness, especially at lower levels.

You should probably add a note about poor support from feats and items for what is effectively a Gish. This also hurts the class unless you're playing in low-wealth campaigns (which just hurts all martials).

[Kurald Galain]

Kinetic blast isn't a weapon, but it does have infusions that turn it into one such as kinetic blade.

And by "infusions such as kinetic blade", you mean "exactly one infusion, i.e. kinetic blade"

But yes, kinny becomes better if you ignore as many kinny options as possible and play it as a standard melee character. Problem is that that's really not what most kinny players want, and that this kind of character has tons of competition from other classes that do a better job at it.

[Psyren]

Conductive weapons work with a kinetic blast and can make bows a competitive option for the kineticist. Worked example here.

There's a bunch of feats which don't work for a kineticist because they don't wield the blast, especially style feats when in melee.

Thanks, that's helpful.

I don't mind the "they don't wield the blast" text for the baseline kinny - it's very clear, and can be altered for the purposes of melee archetypes like Kinetic Knight or Elemental Ascetic where you do want styles to be a thing.

But a kinblast is not a ray, and neither bard song nor the Prayer spell is a feat. So you might presume so but that's not what the rules say. (edit) and the point of this thread is to suggest that maybe they should.

Yes, exactly - this is also helpful.

However, I was taking a look at the Warlock Vigilante's Mystic Bolts for some helpful text, like the "Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts." I think there's some language I could leverage from there to clean up how the kinetic blast is interpreted/presented.

EDIT:

I'd point out that in addition to most talents being weak, the levels at which you gain talents is a bit awkward and leads to swings in effectiveness, especially at lower levels.

You should probably add a note about poor support from feats and items for what is effectively a Gish. This also hurts the class unless you're playing in low-wealth campaigns (which just hurts all martials).

Releveling talents and adding new ones would be a big part of the proposed fix. This is easier with kineticist than it might be with other rebuilds, because you can basically start with every [element descriptor] spell and figure out if the kinny should have it, and if so, when. For example, I think Kineticists should have access to the Elemental Body line for their chosen element, albeit for a moderate cost in burn.

[DrMartin]

I'm compiling notes based on the great discussion in this thread and I had a question:


I like these ideas, but not sure if they should be baseline, or talents/feats. Certainly creating a bunch of difficult terrain around you anytime you pass a certain burn threshold is not something your party is going to be too happy with you for doing. Similarly, radiating fire damage passively could have negative consequences in some locations.

If the existing static bonuses that elemental overflow grants get folded into the base class chassis, then these "aura effects" can be something you have the option to turn on when your burn gets past a threshold.

If elemental overflow keeps being something that gives you static bonuses, that these could be upgrades to elemental defense, still requiring accumulating a certain burn to activate.

I would say give them as baseline abilities, as the class certainly needs the love - but that wholly depends on how the rest of your write-up looks like.

Another option is having the aura activate automatically, but giving the option of picking a talent to exclude allies from the effects - similar to an alchemist bombs aoe + precise bombs

[Darg]

And by "infusions such as kinetic blade", you mean "exactly one infusion, i.e. kinetic blade"

But yes, kinny becomes better if you ignore as many kinny options as possible and play it as a standard melee character. Problem is that that's really not what most kinny players want, and that this kind of character has tons of competition from other classes that do a better job at it.

Kinetic Whip, Blade Whirlwind, and Whip Hurricane. Still, it's all the same "infusion" tree.

I too find kineticist lacking in a lot of ways and burn on many utility talents and infusions are simply unreasonably priced considering you are paying 2 costs in order to use them: selection and burn. I think the direction I would go is separate them into "spell levels" similar to warlock invocations and reduce burn cost as you access new tiers. I also don't think utility talents should be limited by element.

[Psyren]

If the existing static bonuses that elemental overflow grants get folded into the base class chassis, then these "aura effects" can be something you have the option to turn on when your burn gets past a threshold.

If elemental overflow keeps being something that gives you static bonuses, that these could be upgrades to elemental defense, still requiring accumulating a certain burn to activate.

I would say give them as baseline abilities, as the class certainly needs the love - but that wholly depends on how the rest of your write-up looks like.

Okay, I pondered this idea a bit more and I'm warming up to it.

Since Elemental Overflow shouldn't be increasing attack and damage (fixing the weird dynamic of Burn being both a good thing and a bad thing), I was trying to think of what else it should do instead. I wanted to keep the ability because the visual effect, while cosmetic, is a useful way for you and your allies (and knowledgeable enemies) to have a way of telling when you're getting near your Burn limit without metagaming. But just granting Fortification didn't feel like it was worth a whole ability.

I'm open to ideas on what to do with EO but building on the above, here's what I have so far:

1. Keep the Fortification buff;
2. Gain energy resistance corresponding to your element (and its opposite element too - e.g. as a pyrokineticist takes on Burn, they should be insulated from both cold and heat);
3. EO can boost the magnitude of your Elemental Defense;
4. High overflow allows you to share some of your Elemental Defense and energy resistance with your party in a radius around you (e.g. a pyrokineticist can keep their party warm passively.)

Any other ideas for benefits to Overflowing? And where should the attack bonuses/size bonuses come from now, if anywhere?

[Alexvrahr]

And where should the attack bonuses/size bonuses come from now, if anywhere?

Possible ways: if you're using automatic bonus progression or similar do that. If not, then perhaps kineticists could use magic weapons/amulets of mighty fists/handwraps/special focuses or whatever you think most appropriate.

Some people are actively turned off by kineticists using magic items at all though. Asking them why they like PF of all things doesn't help. If that's an issue in your group then maybe copy the magus ability to enhance their weapon?

[DrMartin]

ok, so - piecing together a few different ideas that got thrown around, and without anything more than token consideration for numbers or game balance, how about:

- Kinetic blast: have some of them tie on Strength, some on Dexterity. If you throw rocks, your ranged attack is BAB + Str, if you throw fire, BAB + dex. Either assign the stat that correspond to each blast, or let player choose, but this ties in with the next ability, so I think I'd rather have fixed pairs.

- Burn: your max burn is equal to 3 + con bonus. You have to commit burn to an effect with a duration, you recover it when the effect ends. Instantaneous effects require you to commit your burn for 24 hours / until you take a long rest. Infusion only require to commit your burn for 10 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

- at 3rd level you get a new Ability: Elemental Body, which does just that: you can accept one burn to use Elemental Body I for up to 10 minutes per level. This becomes Elemental Body II for 2 Burn at 7th, Elemental Body III for 3 burn at 11th, Elemental Body IV for 4 burn at 15th, and a to-be-extrapolated Elemental Body V for 5 burn at 19th. Maybe the scaling is way off and the progression has to be adjusted, but you get the idea.

Elemental body boosts either Str or Dex, and higher forms boost Con as well, helping with the class math. Boosts to Con give you extra Burn as well, partially offsetting the activation cost. This bonus burn is spent first, as temp hp.

(Maybe it's necessary to gate the movement abilities granted by Elemental Body I after level 5 or so, since pathfinder doesn't really expect you to fly or glide earth basically at-will at level 3).

- at 5th level, you start to add either Str or Dex to the damage of your blast as well, Unchained-Rogue like. So Elemental Body and stat-boosting items help you keep up your math.

- at 6th level, you get Elemental Overflow, which replaces internal buffer. When you spend burn, you can overflow with your element. This creates an area infused with your element in a 5ft radius around you, that moves with you.
The effects of the Aura improve when you have accepted more than [threshold] burn.

Example abilities:
- fire: foes in the area get 1d6 damage per round per 5 level you have, friends get fire resist 5 per 5 levels you have.
improved: foes are set on fire and have to save vs fatigue first and then exhaustion, friends get cold resist as well
- water: foes get bull rushed to the limit of the area, friends get cold resist
improved: foes get tripped too, friends get fire resist
- earth: foes suffer 10% miss chance + 10% per 5 levels you have, friends benefit from the same concealment from foes outside of the area.
improved: foes need to pass a reflex save to move within the area, friends get a free 5ft step
- wood: foes around you consider the area as difficult terrain, allies get partial cover
improved: foes must save or become first sickened and then nauseated, friends get full cover


too much? not enough? hot garbage?

[Psyren]

Got a bit sidetracked here, sorry!

Possible ways: if you're using automatic bonus progression or similar do that. If not, then perhaps kineticists could use magic weapons/amulets of mighty fists/handwraps/special focuses or whatever you think most appropriate.

Some people are actively turned off by kineticists using magic items at all though. Asking them why they like PF of all things doesn't help. If that's an issue in your group then maybe copy the magus ability to enhance their weapon?

I honestly think they should have both; innate bonuses that effectively get them to full BAB with kinetic blast, and access to items that boost them further, just like any other archery class I've been looking at other 3/4 BAB classes that can pick up archery like the Inqusitor and Medium, as well as archetypes like the Myrmidarch Magus or Arrowsong Minstrel Bard, for inspiration here.

I would make the innate bonuses only apply to their blast though - I don't want them to just have full BAB (at least, not the base kineticist), because their martial prowess should stem from their mastery of their blast, not with any weapon they happen to pick up. That also provides incentive to shape it to fit the kineticist's needs, rather than, say, keeping it one form and using regular weapons the rest of the time. Thus I think 3/4 base with a bonus when using the blast, and some items that let the kineticist enhance it further works best.

The one caveat is that these boosts will effectively make their touch attacks (energy blasts) auto-hit, leaving SR and ER their only remaining obstacles. I'm generally okay with this since similar attacks (Eldritch Blast, Bombs, Mystic Bolt, Wounding Words etc) get similar treatment, and the energy blasts do less damage anyway (getting only half Con). I was toying with the idea of giving the physical blasts another tiny nudge too - maybe going from their current {Xd6+X+Con} to a simpler to calculate and more fun to roll {Xd8+Con}.

Spoiler: @DrMartin

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- Kinetic blast: have some of them tie on Strength, some on Dexterity. If you throw rocks, your ranged attack is BAB + Str, if you throw fire, BAB + dex. Either assign the stat that correspond to each blast, or let player choose, but this ties in with the next ability, so I think I'd rather have fixed pairs.

With respect, I think MAD is the last thing the class needs Being Dex+Con SAD is the biggest thing the class has going for it currently imo.

- Burn: your max burn is equal to 3 + con bonus. You have to commit burn to an effect with a duration, you recover it when the effect ends. Instantaneous effects require you to commit your burn for 24 hours / until you take a long rest. Infusion only require to commit your burn for 10 minutes or until the end of the encounter.

I'm not opposed to the idea of "short duration burn" - but here I think you begin running into the recharge magic problem where now the GM has to be tracking 10-minute intervals throughout the adventuring day, even during the exploration and social pillars, instead of having the freedom to abstract things to longer increments. If I were to do something with shorter burn amounts, it would probably be at least an hour of downtime to clear, similar to 5e's short rest. I'd like to get the current daily burn allotment feeling good though before I experiment in that direction.

- at 3rd level you get a new Ability: Elemental Body, which does just that: you can accept one burn to use Elemental Body I for up to 10 minutes per level. This becomes Elemental Body II for 2 Burn at 7th, Elemental Body III for 3 burn at 11th, Elemental Body IV for 4 burn at 15th, and a to-be-extrapolated Elemental Body V for 5 burn at 19th. Maybe the scaling is way off and the progression has to be adjusted, but you get the idea.

Elemental body boosts either Str or Dex, and higher forms boost Con as well, helping with the class math. Boosts to Con give you extra Burn as well, partially offsetting the activation cost. This bonus burn is spent first, as temp hp.

(Maybe it's necessary to gate the movement abilities granted by Elemental Body I after level 5 or so, since pathfinder doesn't really expect you to fly or glide earth basically at-will at level 3).

I definitely like the idea of them getting the Elemental Body line and it costing a chunk of burn. I was thinking it should be a wild talent, but making it free/baseline isn't bad either. My one caveat is that I'm not sure what kineticists outside the classic elements, like Aether, Wood, Void and Blood would get instead.

As far as the movement abilities, as long as the level you get these talents are benchmarked to the spell level it should be fine, even if the duration or uses/day are higher than an equivalent caster.

- at 5th level, you start to add either Str or Dex to the damage of your blast as well, Unchained-Rogue like. So Elemental Body and stat-boosting items help you keep up your math.

Not sure if I like getting two stats to damage. That could get out of control quickly, especially once infusions and composite blasts (not to mention the items we'd be adding) enter the picture.

- at 6th level, you get Elemental Overflow, which replaces internal buffer. When you spend burn, you can overflow with your element. This creates an area infused with your element in a 5ft radius around you, that moves with you.
The effects of the Aura improve when you have accepted more than [threshold] burn.

Example abilities:
- fire: foes in the area get 1d6 damage per round per 5 level you have, friends get fire resist 5 per 5 levels you have.
improved: foes are set on fire and have to save vs fatigue first and then exhaustion, friends get cold resist as well
- water: foes get bull rushed to the limit of the area, friends get cold resist
improved: foes get tripped too, friends get fire resist
- earth: foes suffer 10% miss chance + 10% per 5 levels you have, friends benefit from the same concealment from foes outside of the area.
improved: foes need to pass a reflex save to move within the area, friends get a free 5ft step
- wood: foes around you consider the area as difficult terrain, allies get partial cover
improved: foes must save or become first sickened and then nauseated, friends get full cover


too much? not enough? hot garbage?

These are all great

Well, all except Fire - again, Elemental Overflow should be a defensive safety net, not a way to hurt yourself for additional damage. Instead of fire damage, I would apply a scaling attack penalty to sighted creatures as you throw off sunspots/flares etc or just plain get brighter and harder to look at. Of course, that can cause a fire kineticist's allies to hate him as he ruins their attempts to sneak, so I'll probably think about that one some more.

Air feels like it should be the miss chance one rather than Earth.

[DrMartin]

Fair point on the MAD - what I was trying to do was switching certain elements to Strength altogether, but that would make expanded element options prone to MADness indeed. Didn't think it 100% through, but maybe I can expand a little on the thoughts behind

The Strength-or-Dex pairing was tying in with Elemental Body, which gives stat boost to the matching stat. The idea was to use that as the fix to the class math. For Instance: Fire Body boosts Dex, so starting at level 3 while transformed that boosts to your Dex means your to-hit gets better, and starting at level 5 your Damage improves as well. If you have Earth Body same goes but using Strength instead.

Aether and Wood etc would need homebrewing for the corresponding Elemental Forms - (as maybe would element mixes when you pick expanded elements? Paraelemental-Body? :D)

Also note that when Elemental Body ends you recover the Burn committed to it, so it's kind of an at-will ability, as long as you have enough Burn capacity to kick it off.

(Also if I am 100% honest I was just really thinking that Toph should use Strength instead of Dex :) )

Regarding the 10 minutes recover for Burn: I wanted to bring that in line with how Practitioners regain maneuvers, so that Burn becomes effectively a per-encounter resource. Maneuvers have the same 10 minutes recover mechanic out of combat, at least in 3.5 they did.

Giving Blind abilities to Fire Aura is a cool idea - is still a pretty aggressive way to express a defensive ability, goes well with fire :) . I was thinking of clouds of dust when writing the earth ability, but yeah, maybe it is a better fit for air.

[RifleAvenger]

Dropping in to say that I actually like Burn as a concept. I like a a risk/reward meter that bundles penalties with bonuses, and even how one of its biggest penalties is self-harm.

The current implementation is bad, for reasons already discussed in this thread. Gotta take some Burn to even attain a base level of competence, it's really hard to do anything worthwhile w/o taking more or screaming like a DBZ character for 10-20 seconds, and (imo) how undynamic it is. I would vastly prefer to see Burn as something that is managed within an encounter, not an irreversible creep throughout the day. Or at least can be reduced after being gained to some degree.

It's a very different system, but an analogy I'm going to try to draw here is Heat in Lancer. Taking Heat is bad; if you overcap Heat and take reactor stress, at best your mech is extra vulnerable to attack and at worst you instantly die as the reactor melts down. Taking Heat is good; systems that generate Heat on oneself tend to be very powerful otherwise and some mechs/talents/systems actually synergize with high Heat (e.g. Nuclear Cavalier talent tree and the gun that fires your super-heated fuel rods at enemies). The big difference is that Heat isn't a daily limiter so long as you don't take reactor stress. Heat is something to be managed within a single encounter.

I admit, I don't think that would work as well in Pathfinder, which is tied to daily resource attrition as a core mechanic in a way that Lancer is not. Designers' fear of an "all-day" pseudocaster breaking attrition is what probably how we wound up with the kineticist as is.

[Psyren]

So I've been working on this update quite a bit during my downtime using all the great suggestions so far, and I had another general question:

Would it be a problem if the Kineticist gained all simple blasts for their chosen element as soon as they pick it?

In other words, instead of picking a single simple blast from their element, they get both of them. For most elements this would mean getting both an energy blast and a physical blast at 1st level, which would minimize your chances of being totally hosed at low levels if you go up against the wrong kind of opponent. As a refresher, the simple blasts are:

Aether: Telekinetic Blast (physical)
Air: Air Blast (physical) + Electric Blast (energy)
Water: Water Blast (physical) + Cold Blast (energy)
Fire: Fire Blast (energy)
Earth: Earth Blast (physical)
Void: Gravity Blast (physical) + Negative Blast (energy)
Wood: Wood Blast (physical) + Positive Blast (energy)

Naturally, this means Aether, Fire, and Earth start at a bit more of a disadvantage than they currently do, so I'd probably want to make it up to them in some way, but I wanted to get opinions on the general approach. Current ideas here:

Spoiler

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Earth could gain a new Acid simple energy blast (doesn't currently exist for some reason, Paizo!). I could demote Aether's Force Blast to a simple blast and cut its damage even further to Xd4+½ Con, similar to the Alchemist's Force Bombs, and change the existing Composite to be "Greater Force Blast." And Fire, rather than gaining a physical blast, might simply get a low-level form infusion of some kind for free to represent its ease of being shaped and spread.

Any drawbacks I'm not considering with this approach?

[Darg]

One thing is the acid blast, whether it bypasses spell resistance or not. I don't think it should without a wild talent or the benefit for a composite blast (earth + acid = acid sludge).

An option for aether to fit a theme of elemental damage is a sonic damage blast. It would also fit the material manipulation theme that aether has.

Fire could simply have a chance to light something on fire based on your kineticist level.

I'm personally in favor of giving access to all blasts from an element. One thing to think about is composite blasts. Normally you get composites based on your expanded element. If you want to keep composites to a smaller number, you could choose a single composite based on your primary element for the first expanded element and for the second you get 2 more composites of your choice.

[Rynjin]

In general, a good idea. I'd make two arguments against two of the variants: you should not give Fire or Earth a second blast.

Fire is...fire. It is hands down the most destructive element, and is defined by it being an energy blast specifically. Instead, I'd buff fire by lowering the insane level requirements on many of the key fire-flavored Infusions. For an easy example, the Pyrokineticists version of Fireball (Explosion) doesn't come online until Level 13, which is nuts. It shouldn't come on any later than 7th level IMO, so should be moved down to a level 4 Infusion.

Earth is similar in that it's one of the two strongest elements in the game (the other being Air), and is defined largely by being a physical element. I can see the merits of giving it an Acid blast, but would somewhat argue against for both flavor and balance reasons; Acid damage is just brutally effective against most creatures. For Earth I think the main thing it needs is MORE Infusions rather than more Blasts. Earth has a very small number of available Infusions (though the ones that are available are all solid), and its Utility Talents in particular are limiting and that is where I think a buff to Earth should mostly be applied.

[Psyren]

I'm personally in favor of giving access to all blasts from an element. One thing to think about is composite blasts. Normally you get composites based on your expanded element. If you want to keep composites to a smaller number, you could choose a single composite based on your primary element for the first expanded element and for the second you get 2 more composites of your choice.

You're correct, this change would give access to every composite blast from any element(s) you combine. Personally I think the level hit to your secondary elements + the burn cost would be enough of a drawback to keep that buff in check, but I'll take a closer look at exactly how many new blasts each Kinny combination would gain from this.

One thing is the acid blast, whether it bypasses spell resistance or not. I don't think it should without a wild talent or the benefit for a composite blast (earth + acid = acid sludge).

Agreed, energy + bypass SR is definitely composite territory and should cost burn. Perhaps that can be another earth+water combo aside from mud blast.

An option for aether to fit a theme of elemental damage is a sonic damage blast. It would also fit the material manipulation theme that aether has.

Sonic is another one that I would put into composite territory. Even if you don't include the bypass hardness factor (which should be there imo), sonic resistance is rare enough that such a blast would functionally be untyped in many games.

Making it composite also has the advantage that I don't have to decide whether it fits air or earth better it would simply be a matter of saying both air+aether and earth+aether can get you access, enjoy!

Fire could simply have a chance to light something on fire based on your kineticist level.

Hmm - I'd rather catching on fire be tied to Blue Flame Blast personally (i.e. Fire+Fire) but I'll consider having it be part of the simple blast. Perhaps the simple blast uses the regular catch on fire rules (capped at 1d6) while blue flame can apply a harder-hitting dot...

In general, a good idea. I'd make two arguments against two of the variants: you should not give Fire or Earth a second blast.

Fire is...fire. It is hands down the most destructive element, and is defined by it being an energy blast specifically. Instead, I'd buff fire by lowering the insane level requirements on many of the key fire-flavored Infusions. For an easy example, the Pyrokineticists version of Fireball (Explosion) doesn't come online until Level 13, which is nuts. It shouldn't come on any later than 7th level IMO, so should be moved down to a level 4 Infusion.

Earth is similar in that it's one of the two strongest elements in the game (the other being Air), and is defined largely by being a physical element. I can see the merits of giving it an Acid blast, but would somewhat argue against for both flavor and balance reasons; Acid damage is just brutally effective against most creatures. For Earth I think the main thing it needs is MORE Infusions rather than more Blasts. Earth has a very small number of available Infusions (though the ones that are available are all solid), and its Utility Talents in particular are limiting and that is where I think a buff to Earth should mostly be applied.

Yes, great feedback.

Trust me, releveling fire talents (ALL talents really, but especially fire) is on my to-do list I was going to do that alongside giving Fire something nice in exchange for having just one simple blast. So a free infusion for fire is still on the table.

I hear you loud and clear on Earth, especially given that it's the only simple blast that can bypass all three kinds of physical DR¹. So maybe I dump the acid simple blast idea and make that purely a composite blast as stated above.

Concerning utility talents - I haven't gotten to those yet either, but one of my big changes in fact is simplifying the class greatly by getting rid of the separate "you must alternate-between-infusions-and-utility-each-level" progressions. Instead, they'd just have one pool of wild talents to choose from. If you want a kinny that is mostly utility with just a couple of infusions, you can do that. If you want the opposite, an elemental archer that can manipulate their blast 10 ways from sunday and doesn't need to do much else, you can do that too. Or you can go with one similar to what we have now that goes half-and-half if you want. But the choice should be in the hands of the player.

The class table (very WIP, more changes coming) ended up looking more like this:

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¹Well, maybe Wood can too - but I think that one should be scaled back to just piercing or slashing personally, it's not like you're chucking a log! And Aether can too but it's restricted to whatever happens to be lying around.

[Kurald Galain]

Fire is...fire. It is hands down the most destructive element

It's intended to be, but given that fire is the most common resistance or immunity for monsters, it turns out that it's really not. So what fire really needs is a talent to bypass those.

Earth is similar in that it's one of the two strongest elements in the game

How do you figure? Other than bypassing material DR, I don't see how earth has anything going for it.

[Particle_Man]

Designers' fear of an "all-day" pseudocaster breaking attrition is what probably how we wound up with the kineticist as is.

Which is weird to me since the Warlock from 3.5 proved not to be a problem. And was three orders of magnitude easier in design.

[Psyren]

It's intended to be, but given that fire is the most common resistance or immunity for monsters, it turns out that it's really not. So what fire really needs is a talent to bypass those.

Indeed - and i think that a "searing" component that lets you ignore X fire resistance should definitely be the province of Blue Flame Blast for that reason. (And yes, I know Draining Infusion exists, but that has so many caveats that I'm probably going to throw it out entirely and start from scratch.)

How do you figure? Other than bypassing material DR, I don't see how earth has anything going for it.

From what I can see, "strongest" is relative. Earth has few huge upsides, decent utility and few traps, which would ordinarily make it average - but the number and severity of the pitfalls that come with some of the other elements cause Earth's normalcy to actually make it stand out.

Which is weird to me since the Warlock from 3.5 proved not to be a problem. And was three orders of magnitude easier in design.

Not to mention PF's own Witch, who has at-will mechanics that are simultaneously cleaner and more powerful than those of the Kinny.

[Rynjin]

It's intended to be, but given that fire is the most common resistance or immunity for monsters, it turns out that it's really not. So what fire really needs is a talent to bypass those.

Fire already has a Talent for that called Penetrating Infusion. All it really needs is to lower the base Burn to 1 (+1 per 5 reduced) and to give the standard wording for "Immunity is treated as Energy Resist 30 for the purposes of this Talent".

How do you figure? Other than bypassing material DR, I don't see how earth has anything going for it.

Combination of a few factors, partially subjective:

1.) I think physical Blasts are pound for pound stronger than Energy blasts. Physical DR is typically lower, there's no physical immunity, and physical Blasts work with Deadly Aim.

2.) Of the physical Blasts, Earth gets the best talents. They get a reliable low level AoE that scales pretty well (Impale), rare Earth Infusion allows them to overcome material DR, it has access to all of the good "Combat Maneuver" infusions, it has a solid high level AoE in Fragmentation (somewhat trash but better than nothing, whicch is what most elements get), and Magnetic Infusion is just solid. Unlike most elements I don't find myself taking an Infusion just because I HAVE to, since there are enough good ones to fill out every level.

3.) Earth gets probably the second or third best defense, after either Aether or Water's, depending on whetehr you like Aether's or not.

4.) It has great composite blasts with any other element.

[Eldonauran]

Honestly? If I had to balance out how Blue Flame blast interacted with Fire Resistance, I'd just take a page out of the divine caster's handbook and treat half of the damage as divine damage, and thus not subject to elemental resistance (ie, as per Flame Strike). Probably make it a substance infusion, rather than an ability inherent with the composite blast.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd just take a page out of the divine caster's handbook and treat half of the damage as divine damage, and thus not subject to elemental resistance (ie, as per Flame Strike).

The catch is that that doesn't help.

Suppose you deal 30 fire damage against fire resistance 15 (and you don't get much higher than that); you end up doing 15 damage.
Now suppose you deal 15-fire-and-15-divine damage against fire resistance 15; you end up doing... the same 15 damage.

That rule for Flame Strike is essentially flavor text and doesn't improve the spell any.

[Rynjin]

For resistance, yes. It turns immunity into 50% damage though.

[Eldonauran]

The catch is that that doesn't help.

Suppose you deal 30 fire damage against fire resistance 15 (and you don't get much higher than that); you end up doing 15 damage.
Now suppose you deal 15-fire-and-15-divine damage against fire resistance 15; you end up doing... the same 15 damage.

That rule for Flame Strike is essentially flavor text and doesn't improve the spell any.

Well, yes. Everyone has to deal with energy resistances. Kineticists are no different. The divine damage is much more desirable when facing something immune to fire damage flat out. Fire kineticists already have means to reduce an opponents fire resistance, should the need arise.

[Edea]

Raise kinetic blast's base range to 60 feet, that one's just a headscratcher. I'm also not sure why it even checks damage reduction if it's not physical, is that a Pathfinder thing?

I'm not sure why the talent progression rate is so strictly regimented, it really clutters the class up. I'd set a number of 'talents known', starting at 2 and gain another one every level. Let the player pick what types of talent they want to specialize in. I also don't know why they tried to follow spellcaster levels; I'd just use 'grades' for picking them like the warlock did.

Burn needs to go. That whole mechanic's garbage, not even going to mince words with that one. I'd probably replace it with a re-tooled version of Magic of Incarnum's essentia system (essence -> talents instead of essentia -> soulmelds).

Restrictions on talent elements also need to be relaxed considerably right from the beginning. There would be incentive to use elements that match your spec (likely revolving around the aforementioned essentia re-work), but it's too narrow as-is. The additional element spec/'composite' system's too convoluted; just have them pick one element spec, and don't punish them so much for stuff that's not within that spec.

But then the real problem with the class, the one that makes fixing this so hard: the talents themselves. They're all over the place, and a lot of them are underpowered. The whole library, bloated as it is, probably needs to be reviewed, a lot of it needs to be re-written, and that's...a big undertaking.

[Thunder999]

Raise kinetic blast's base range to 60 feet, that one's just a headscratcher. I'm also not sure why it even checks damage reduction if it's not physical, is that a Pathfinder thing?

I'm not sure why the talent progression rate is so strictly regimented, it really clutters the class up. I'd set a number of 'talents known', starting at 2 and gain another one every level. Let the player pick what types of talent they want to specialize in. I also don't know why they tried to follow spellcaster levels; I'd just use 'grades' for picking them like the warlock did.

Burn needs to go. That whole mechanic's garbage, not even going to mince words with that one. I'd probably replace it with a re-tooled version of Magic of Incarnum's essentia system (essence -> talents instead of essentia -> soulmelds).

Restrictions on talent elements also need to be relaxed considerably right from the beginning. There would be incentive to use elements that match your spec (likely revolving around the aforementioned essentia re-work), but it's too narrow as-is. The additional element spec/'composite' system's too convoluted; just have them pick one element spec, and don't punish them so much for stuff that's not within that spec.

But then the real problem with the class, the one that makes fixing this so hard: the talents themselves. They're all over the place, and a lot of them are underpowered. The whole library, bloated as it is, probably needs to be reviewed, a lot of it needs to be re-written, and that's...a big undertaking.

Kinetic blasts come in physical and energy variants, physical blasts do normal physical damage (as in bludgeoning, piercing and/or slashing) whereas energy blasts do energy damage, so naturally physical blasts interact with DR and energy with energy resistance.

The split talents is fine, one side is all the invocation style new abilities, the other is infusions for your blast, the idea is you can grab a full selection of blast infusions without having to give up your other options. Now there's plenty to improve with regards to the talents themselves, but the way you acquire them is appropriate.

Elemental specialisation is a big part of the class' theme, I wouldn't get rid of it, what I would do is remove the ridiculous reduced level for secondary/tertiary elements and make them all a bit more equal rather than some being utter garbage,

[Arkain]

You're correct, this change would give access to every composite blast from any element(s) you combine. Personally I think the level hit to your secondary elements + the burn cost would be enough of a drawback to keep that buff in check, but I'll take a closer look at exactly how many new blasts each Kinny combination would gain from this.

Maybe I'm misreading things, but this sounds like the -4 from Expanded Element. Do you actually wish to keep these level hits? I can certainly see an appeal there that the first element defines a character more because it's what they are best at ("I know some earth and water tricks, but fire is my true passion"), but I rather thought it an unreasonable nerf to the class and it's probably the first thing I'd lose. Admittedly, this view does not take into account a re-design of the class, including re-leveled talents and such.

[Psyren]

Maybe I'm misreading things, but this sounds like the -4 from Expanded Element. Do you actually wish to keep these level hits? I can certainly see an appeal there that the first element defines a character more because it's what they are best at ("I know some earth and water tricks, but fire is my true passion"), but I rather thought it an unreasonable nerf to the class and it's probably the first thing I'd lose. Admittedly, this view does not take into account a re-design of the class, including re-leveled talents and such.

I do in fact want a kineticist's primary element to matter more to them. A "pyrokineticist" who is as adept at using water (if not moreso) as a hydrokineticist just feels bad. I'm open to other ways to accomplish that feel however; while I'm not opposed to the reduced level for secondary and tertiary elements, I think a few other changes (like broadening universal talent options) might make that drawback more palatable without diluting the importance of that initial choice/manifestation.

With that said, I do think there's room for a variant of kineticist that IS equally adept at every element they know. This would be fertile ground for an archetype of some kind.

Raise kinetic blast's base range to 60 feet, that one's just a headscratcher.

60ft is the range of a warlock's eldritch blast, and for good reason. 30' is entirely too short for a primary ranged class to operate in - never mind charges, you're within range of a single move action from most creatures at that point, and some bigger or unusual monsters wouldn't even need that to reach you.

The talents that boost your range to 120' and 480' in exchange for burn can stay unchanged, but the base range being upgraded is something all kineticists would enjoy imo.

I'm also not sure why it even checks damage reduction if it's not physical, is that a Pathfinder thing?

There are both physical and energy kinetic blasts; the energy ones ignore DR but are subject to SR and ER.

I'm not sure why the talent progression rate is so strictly regimented, it really clutters the class up. I'd set a number of 'talents known', starting at 2 and gain another one every level. Let the player pick what types of talent they want to specialize in.

Indeed, this is one of the first changes I made.

Burn needs to go. That whole mechanic's garbage, not even going to mince words with that one. I'd probably replace it with a re-tooled version of Magic of Incarnum's essentia system (essence -> talents instead of essentia -> soulmelds).

I'm definitely keeping Burn (and gave several reasons why during the thread), though I'm not against further discussion about ways to improve it.
I'll tuck the essence idea away for some form of veilweaving archetype down the line though.

Restrictions on talent elements also need to be relaxed considerably right from the beginning. There would be incentive to use elements that match your spec (likely revolving around the aforementioned essentia re-work), but it's too narrow as-is. The additional element spec/'composite' system's too convoluted; just have them pick one element spec, and don't punish them so much for stuff that's not within that spec.

As noted above, I think a better option here is a bigger/better pool of "universal" talents. That way you still have to choose your element carefully, but there is more you can do regardless of that choice.

I'm also thinking of pulling Omnikinesis down from being the capstone - it's a fun yet reasonable ability that the vast majority of games will never see. A better capstone would be something like the Metamind's Font of Power but for Burn, that lets you go absolutely nuts with your most powerful and world-breaking talents - that would be ideal for a level 20 blowout, end-of-the-campaign sort of ability.

But then the real problem with the class, the one that makes fixing this so hard: the talents themselves. They're all over the place, and a lot of them are underpowered. The whole library, bloated as it is, probably needs to be reviewed, a lot of it needs to be re-written, and that's...a big undertaking.

It certainly is - I'll let you know how it goes

[Edea]

I mean, at minimum get burn separated from your Con/hit points. It can still knock you out if it goes over a set limit, but trying to track all those different types of hp damage is obnoxious, and PF still allows situational ability score changes. Burn also has the same problem wild surge does (part of the feature gets worse the higher your level).

Have the burn limit be static according to the character's effective kineticist class level and nothing else, and then scale 'burn damage' with that new limit. Con/hit points don't even enter into the equation.

[Efrate]

IMO just play an elemental themed vizier. Using city of 7 seraphs as well as Akashic mysteries can net you a ton of elemental themed abilities or easily refluffed elemental themed abilities. When my DM asked about it I said "Its similar to bending in avatar, just with the ability to bend earth one day and fire the next. We went over it he said yep and it's a blast to play.

DSP stuff is always excellent and well regarded, and makes a better elemental blaster type than most right out the gate. Eclipse is easily refluffed as a better void skinny, radiant could easily be fire (or light if you want), etc.

At the very least discrete packages of veils as archetypes focusing on single element veils.

On keeping primary element relevant, just give an elemental focus at level 1 that scales up to like 6d6 or 7d6 or whatever your wanted power level at level 20, possibly with minor riders. Start with an extra 1d6 and nothing, at 4 its 2d6 and Minor rider, at 7 its 3d6 and slightly better minor rider or minor rider +1(or fire dazzles and at 4 goes to a -2 penalty which scales to like -6 or something). At level 10 or 11 they can pick a second focus and get half the benefits, or every 5 levels depending on how much you want to tinker.

It makes your primary thing element fairly substantially better and shows your increasing mastery. Free talents related to your primary could also be a things, freeing slots for other stuff.

So if fire is the damage focused kinny, get free fire based talents that also skew offensive and that saves slots for other utility or options.

[Arkain]

I do in fact want a kineticist's primary element to matter more to them. A "pyrokineticist" who is as adept at using water (if not moreso) as a hydrokineticist just feels bad. I'm open to other ways to accomplish that feel however; while I'm not opposed to the reduced level for secondary and tertiary elements, I think a few other changes (like broadening universal talent options) might make that drawback more palatable without diluting the importance of that initial choice/manifestation.

With that said, I do think there's room for a variant of kineticist that IS equally adept at every element they know. This would be fertile ground for an archetype of some kind.

I would argue that a hydrokineticist and a pyrokineticist being as adept at each others elements as the other just by choosing them at higher levels is not necessarily true though. It may look that way, but individual build differences should account for something. A dedicated blaster is different from a caster who uses Fireball every now and then, after all. So in this sense I'd say that the option to acquire talents requiring certain elements much earlier is not to be ignored, particularly if you want to make them attractive, yet put a huge focus on improving utility talents. So while the pyrokineticist may just be as adept at water on a basic level, maybe they lack the hydrokineticists water-based talents that make them feel more in tune with the element.
Now, Efrate has already offered some nice ideas along the lines of what I was thinking. Their idea being that Elemental Focus gives out bonuses to the first element. What I was thinking is similar, in that I considered Expanded Element giving a bonus whenever you choose to go for an element you already have access to. So you could gain a bonus and even another one for your one and only element, or gain a slight bonus to your second one later in your career. It doesn't quite work, but maybe a bit like (Advanced) Weapon Training. Gain another one at a lower bonus, or instead gain some new trick for what you have. One could also have a couple talents require a double or even triple focus, but that is probably difficult to pull off to a satisfying degree for every element.
Now, as for the bonus itself, I was thinking maybe a slight level boost. So you count as for instance 1 higher for fire, maybe if you go down that path another time it's not 2, but 3. That improves your damage, your concentration and all that, but most importantly, it would affect your access to higher level (elemental-oriented) talents, thus allowing for the elemental mastery to show by being capable of things somebody who dabbles in many elements cannot pull off. On the flip side, maybe the penalty of Expanded Element could be kept, yet mitigated via feats - but that would basically mean a feat tax. At least one problem I see there is that it may be difficult to avoid a situation where a given Kineticist just goes for one element that offers great versatility and calls it a day, disincentivizing spreading out.
... I think what I'm really saying is I'd rather see the specialty shine and be stronger than optional diversity weakened.

On the note of archetypes, I was going to say that there is one for the hyperspecialized kind of Kineticist already, but... yeah, the archetypes are mostly not great at all. Still, I think there is a place for both, a proper "avatar" styled Kineticist* (classical four elements only as a limitation, for instance) and also a specialist who goes beyond just not choosing other elements. The Blood Kineticist archetype does try to go into this direction by focusing the character rather heavily on using water.
* N. Jolly's guide does mention such an archetype from Kineticists of Porphyra, the appropriately named Elemental Avatar.