Kineticist Problems - did I find them all?

[Rynjin]

In addition to the raw "power level" concerns laid out in your opening post, a big issue with the Kineticist is its rigidity. It has very tight math; deliberately tied down to mediocrity. There is almost no way to optimize a Kineticist, and likewise basically no way to **** one up. Once you've chosen your element, one Kineticist will look largely identical to another.

Combine this with the fact that there's a clear list of a few "master elements" (air, earth, and MAYBE water in a pinch) that get all the goodies in terms of both utility and good combat Infusions, and you have a class that is dubiously interesting to play, and certainly uninteresting to play more than once.

[Sinner's Garden]

And you do need to define it at least once, because you need the lines that say "here is how the nonlethal you take from Burn differs regular nonlethal that you can't simply pop a Lesser Restoration to get rid of, and also here's how much nonlethal damage you take every time you buy it."

Do you? Why does burn have to be a special type of damage that can't be healed like any other type of damage? While the aesthetic of you pushing past your limits and straining your body to accomplish something great is nice, you should balance it around the ubiquitous nature of healing spells, not try and handwave it away by saying "for no reason, healing doesn't apply to this." Given how deliberately lackluster the kinny is, I do wonder if you even need to balance it, versus simply accepting that a game with lots of free healing access is probably playing at a higher power level anyway and allowing them to benefit from it like everyone else.

[TiaC]

The Kineticists of Porphyra and Legendary Kineticist books both contain a ton of options for kineticists that do a lot to help with the lack of support for kineticists. 1st party is really limited. As an example of how few 1st party options exist, in composite energy blasts there is one that just does damage, one that does damage and doesn't work on undead or constructs, one that only will damage undead, and one that deals damage like a simple blast. It's a thin spread of options, and most kineticists will get none of them, which if they were relying on touch attacks will mean that they won't hit anything with composite blasts

DSP's Avant Guard has an interesting way of dealing with burn. At the start of the day, you can accept burn up to half your level rounded up. This burn determines the strength of the Avant Guard's unique defense talent and blast. For every three points of burn accepted this way, all other burn costs are decreased by one. (except for healing effects). If you were to allow this to apply to a normal defense talent you'd mitigate the worst parts of burn pretty well.

This could be a way to rework elemental overflow. If you replaced the effects of elemental overflow with a mechanic where taking on burn reduced future burn costs, you have a situation where taking burn is always a cost, and it doesn't give bonuses, but you can't get stuck in the situation where you have no health and only basic abilities for the rest of the day. (The class would need a numbers boost, but that part's easy.) It works flavorwise too. Burn is elemental energy overloading your system, but the more energy is flowing through you, the easier it is to use that power.

Another approach I've seen used was to double the effect of burn, but let it be healed normally. The Kineticist could take herself out easily, but it didn't stop her from playing for the rest of the day

The class could really use more talents, and no level penalty for talents from secondary elements and feats. The -6 effective level penalty on top of the usually delayed level that the

[Kurald Galain]

Do you? Why does burn have to be a special type of damage that can't be healed like any other type of damage?

I don't think burn really needs to be damage; in fact it would be clearer and more consistent if it's not. I'd suggest making it a "pool" similar to monk ki, barbarian rage rounds, or swashbuckler panache.

[Rynjin]

I don't think burn really needs to be damage; in fact it would be clearer and more consistent if it's not. I'd suggest making it a "pool" similar to monk ki, barbarian rage rounds, or swashbuckler panache.

A fix my DM went with in a game was having Burn count up to a limit of your Con mod without issue, after which there's a scaling percent chance of backlash and having all the accumulated nonlethal damage hit you at once.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't think burn really needs to be damage; in fact it would be clearer and more consistent if it's not. I'd suggest making it a "pool" similar to monk ki, barbarian rage rounds, or swashbuckler panache.

I know Psyren likes the idea for whatever reason, but I agree with you. Having a class (the only class) whose primary class feature for doing the only thing they can moderately competantly do actively makes them progressively easier to be knocked out is a fracking terrible idea, personally. The only RPG I can think of off the top of my head that used hit points like power points was Star Ocean 3, and you could heal that off. Going up and down like a yo-yo and irritating the rest of the players who have to devote their actions to being your personal healbot makes you an annoying liability, not a useful character class. I honestly think that burn is the kineticist's biggest single problem among its many problems. It is, to my mind, just a straight bad concept and mechanic.

If I was playing a kineticist, I would NEVER use burn except for that which could be migitated. MAYBE towards the end of a boss fight, but NEVER as the standard resource they seem to expect you to to use is as, it's just tantamount of asking to be knocked out and sit around the combat twiddling your thumbs or for the cleric to be having to spend his action to constatnly get you conscious again, ESPECIALLY as it is non-healable damage.

(AND we play with max hit points, where the effect would be most minimal. That said, we ALSO play in an high-expected damage environment. First Sudden-maximised Fireball or whatever that gets dropped on you, and you're going to be out if you've been using any burn.)

At average hit points, max burn (3+Con mod) reduces you to fundementally 1.5 hit point per level, so no more than 30 hits at level 20, for what? Maybe 15 points of non-mitigated burn (assuming 34 end con), which is 2.5 rounds of max burn. Hell, even with max hit points, max burn leaves you with just 5 hits per level.

Pretty sure the kinetecist can't nova hard enough to be worst than a wizard or psion in damage output, so at absolute best that's a laughable amount of rounds, considering that no other class I can think of can nova and fundementally take themselves out of the fight by doing so. Plus, at 20th level, what can you possibly do with a kinetecist that is worth taking 120 points of nonlethal damage per round? (That's have to be what, a composite blast with 12 points of burn or something?) And if there comes a point where you can't do anything for which the burn isn't fully mitigated by your character class abilites - why does it exist as a mechanic in the first place? It is just to screw low-level kinetecists?

No, I just really can't see the point of burn at all as a central mechanic (I can barely see the point of it as something you do maybe once per day in a pinch).

[HeraldOfExius]

I also like the idea of burn as a "sacrifice hit points to go above and beyond" sort of mechanic, but the default kineticist doesn't really represent that well. If kineticists were more capable of doing things without taking burn and had a reliable way to get their bonuses from elemental overflow without sacrificing HP first thing in the morning (Limited rounds per day? Ability that lasts for a few rounds before needing to be reactivated?), then burn could be an interesting "let's get dangerous" ability. Having the option to trade your HP for a power boost would be interesting, but having to make that trade just to keep up with everybody else is a problem.

[DrMartin]

Personally I would have Burn work like committing Effort does in Godbound.

You have a pool of effort, say 3 + your level. Certain abilities require you to commit effort for a certain amount of time. Some require you to commit it for anything between 1 minute and a full day, but have only a short duration. Other require you to keep effort committed, and the ability they grant is active as long as you leave it committed. You can always reclaim committed effort to end an active ability and use it for something else. You cannot reclaim effort committed to "one and done" abilities until the time as passed, but it still counts as committed.

Make it so that as long as you have enough committed effort your elemental overflow activates. And give it cool, thematic powers like dragonblooded auras in exalted, not (or not only, If the class needs those number so that the math work) samey stat bonuses. Your fiery elemental overflow burns. The watery one drowns people. Have them be metal, they are flashy elemental auras, not lightshows.

If you wanna keep the "burn does damage" thing, add a mechanic like overchannel (the psionic feat), when you can get hp damage to increase your caster level.

No reason to have that damage be unrecoverable though, it wasn't the case for Overchannel, can't see why burn should be different.

[Psyren]

I know Psyren likes the idea for whatever reason, but I agree with you.

I provided the "whatever reason":

I consider nonlethal damage being the limiter on a kineticist spamming their most powerful stuff all the time to be a good idea. A Con-based class with built-in magical defenses that can stay at range could end up pretty tough for a GM to take down otherwise, potentially provoking an arms-race as the GM throws bigger and bigger damage numbers at the party in response. And I wouldn't want to change the kineticist from being Con-based (the standard kinny anyway) because it's a slam dunk from both a fluff and crunch perspective. "I handle more powerful elemental magic by enduring more of it" makes sense fluff-wise, and a "caster" that is based on physical stats is something folks have wanted almost since PF debuted.

^ I thought I was pretty clear on my rationale.

I also like the idea of burn as a "sacrifice hit points to go above and beyond" sort of mechanic, but the default kineticist doesn't really represent that well. If kineticists were more capable of doing things without taking burn and had a reliable way to get their bonuses from elemental overflow without sacrificing HP first thing in the morning (Limited rounds per day? Ability that lasts for a few rounds before needing to be reactivated?), then burn could be an interesting "let's get dangerous" ability. Having the option to trade your HP for a power boost would be interesting, but having to make that trade just to keep up with everybody else is a problem.

Yes - this whole post is exactly what I think needs fixing in a nutshell. And I for one would rather fix this (and maybe a handful of other things, like increasing KB base range to 60') and see how it plays, than commit to scrapping Burn entirely.

Make it so that as long as you have enough committed effort your elemental overflow activates. And give it cool, thematic powers like dragonblooded auras in exalted, not (or not only, If the class needs those number so that the math work) samey stat bonuses. Your fiery elemental overflow burns. The watery one drowns people. Have them be metal, they are flashy elemental auras, not lightshows.

This is closer to my vision for Elemental Overflow as well. The class math should be completely divorced from it, but the visual effects as you take on more effort/burn should be there. I also like the idea of your fortification increasing the more of it you take on - you're becoming more of an elemental essentially, and they're immune to precision damage because of their amorphous bodies, so you start to get a little of that. Not only is it flavorful, it also helps save you from damage spikes while you're carrying a decent amount of burn. The first time this saves a player's life by negating a crit or sneak attack, you're guaranteed to get that "yes!" fist-pump moment that makes not just the class but the entire session memorable - great design, win-win.

My only caveat is that I think its effects should be purely defensive. Elemental Overflow should be a safety net for high-burn days and a visual trigger for bystanders (including your party and enemies) - not something you burn yourself for to increase your offensive power.

[Thunder999]

Burn definitely shouldn't be easily healed, because there's not really a cost to it at all then, healing is far too easy in pathfinder. Either keep it as the unhealable nonlethal and make the stuff you do by spending it more powerful, so it's a simple case of trading max HP for power, or just make it a standard pool like most classes, you get 3+con or half your level+con or w/e per day and can spend it as you want.

[Sinner's Garden]

Damage can be a pretty considerable cost; in most campaigns, taking damage recklessly can quickly run you down up to 5kgp and a level. More importantly, while healing is easy, unless you're at a favorable enough position that losing the battle isn't a realistic outcome, then you're trading resources (and actions) in order to break even on the whole "casting from HP" thing, which other classes don't have to worry about because they're casting from a different resource than the one that keeps them in the game.

[N. Jolly]

I assume you mean this one? It doesn't go far enough in my view, and simultaneously the change of Burn from being nonlethal damage to a penalty on skill checks is too drastic. Depending on their party, they can simply ignore that penalty most of the time, which makes it not much of a penalty at all; in addition, they still need Elemental Overflow to hit anything, Gather Power is still too weak, the basic blast's range is still too short, they're still stuck with a single element's simple blast too long etc.

Eh, I think it went far enough myself, but you try redesigning a class while keeping it backwards compatible with your entire library of content ;)

[Rynjin]

Personally I would have Burn work like committing Effort does in Godbound.

Wow! So there are 6 people who've played Godbound, not just 5!

Seriously good game but this is the first time I've heard anyone mention it outside of a group I played with once.

[Psyren]

Damage can be a pretty considerable cost; in most campaigns, taking damage recklessly can quickly run you down up to 5kgp and a level. More importantly, while healing is easy, unless you're at a favorable enough position that losing the battle isn't a realistic outcome, then you're trading resources (and actions) in order to break even on the whole "casting from HP" thing, which other classes don't have to worry about because they're casting from a different resource than the one that keeps them in the game.

While that's true, those other classes aren't Con-based either (on top of being ranged and getting more defenses from their element.) And keep in mind we're talking about a subforum where in-combat healing is most often looked on with disdain anyway.

My proposed fix (which would build on HeraldofExius' quick summary) would, by making Elemental Overflow defensive in nature, offset the additional danger incurred from Burn damage while still being intuitive to grasp.

Eh, I think it went far enough myself, but you try redesigning a class while keeping it backwards compatible with your entire library of content ;)

Oh I'm not trying to impugn your efforts by any means, and certainly any attempt to dig through this mess of a class to fix it is worthy of commendation but I genuinely don't think a skill/check penalty is a meaningful enough drawback for a combat-oriented class to provoke truly interesting decisions/tradeoffs. And while I completely get the thought behind the "Battle Burn" mechanic, imo it's just one more thing for an already burdened class (and GM) to track. For me, the ways to manage your burn during a fight would primarily come from Gather Power and Infusion Specialization (tactically) and a redesigned Internal Buffer (strategically).

[Kurald Galain]

And keep in mind we're talking about a subforum where in-combat healing is most often looked on with disdain anyway.

The people who disdain in-combat healers are almost universally 3E players, not PF players (specifically because PF's channel energy ability).

[Psyren]

The people who disdain in-combat healers are almost universally 3E players, not PF players (specifically because PF's channel energy ability).

Fair point.

[DrMartin]

Wow! So there are 6 people who've played Godbound, not just 5!

Seriously good game but this is the first time I've heard anyone mention it outside of a group I played with once.

Spoiler: Off Topic

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I´ve never actually managed to get a Godbound game going, but I know the system inside out.
The Exaled game that was considering switching to it died before we could implement the switch :(

I am an avid consumer of pretty much everything from that publisher though, the quality is mostly stellar, and the ratio of ready-to-use and actionable content to noise is great.

I´ve run Kingmaker using Red Tide rules as kingdom management system instead of Ultimate Campaign, a very nice experience

[Aniikinis]

It's been mentioned before, but Forrestfire Studios' Avowed would work much better and with almost no real modification required. It's a better, more versatile warlock with a few different archetypes and patron choices of all kinds.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DrMartin
I´ve run Kingmaker using Red Tide rules as kingdom management system instead of Ultimate Campaign....

For those of us not familiar with this system, where can we find the Red Tide rules?

[Psyren]

It's been mentioned before, but Forrestfire Studios' Avowed would work much better and with almost no real modification required. It's a better, more versatile warlock with a few different archetypes and patron choices of all kinds.

I do like the Avowed as a more faithful Warlock conversion, and will try to get my GM to use it. I'm still interested in fixing the Kineticist though because fluffwise, I think there's room for both. (The Avowed is more patron/pact-y in feel, even when that pact is with something like an ideal that has no agenda of its own - whereas the Kineticist feels more like a phenomenon of nature or the inner planes made manifest in a person.) They have mechanical differences too like the Avowed's use of verbal components for its Clauses, and its focus on Charisma.

And there's the simple practical matter of "Here's a fixed version of {1st-party class}" tends to be an easier sell (at least it is for me) than "here's a brand new class to learn." (Especially when that brand new class comes pre-packaged with a whole new subsystem, as the Elementalist does - though the Avowed at least avoids that.)

Burn definitely shouldn't be easily healed, because there's not really a cost to it at all then, healing is far too easy in pathfinder. Either keep it as the unhealable nonlethal and make the stuff you do by spending it more powerful, so it's a simple case of trading max HP for power, or just make it a standard pool like most classes, you get 3+con or half your level+con or w/e per day and can spend it as you want.

I don't mind keeping the hard daily cap on Burn alongside the soft cap of unhealable damage - that future-proofs the design in case bonus or temporary HP become plentiful somehow. I would raise that hard cap to 3+1/2 level+Con burn per day (minimum 1) for some additional scaling however.

As an example - a UMD'd scroll or staff of Greater False Life (especially one that is Maximized or Empowered) can provide 40+ extra hit points that last all day. This is a good enough purchase for kineticists today with a Burn cap, never mind how much better it would become without. And that's only a 4th-level spell (without the metamagic) so it's reasonable to imagine there's design space at the top end for an even more powerful all-day temp HP spell or ability to be developed at some point.

[N. Jolly]

Oh I'm not trying to impugn your efforts by any means, and certainly any attempt to dig through this mess of a class to fix it is worthy of commendation but I genuinely don't think a skill/check penalty is a meaningful enough drawback for a combat-oriented class to provoke truly interesting decisions/tradeoffs. And while I completely get the thought behind the "Battle Burn" mechanic, imo it's just one more thing for an already burdened class (and GM) to track. For me, the ways to manage your burn during a fight would primarily come from Gather Power and Infusion Specialization (tactically) and a redesigned Internal Buffer (strategically).

I feel ya. Trust me, if I was able to make a full rebuild, it'd have been a lot different. I just like popping my head in whenever kineticist stuff gets discussed. Maybe in corefinder, I'll get to make MY kineticist.

[Manyasone]

I feel ya. Trust me, if I was able to make a full rebuild, it'd have been a lot different. I just like popping my head in whenever kineticist stuff gets discussed. Maybe in corefinder, I'll get to make MY kineticist.

Keep the Porphyra stuff in then, please

[Darg]

The problem with kineticist is that everything feels too slow. I haven't tested this, but to make the progression feel smoother is at first level you get both types of blasts from your primary element (composite is still at level 7), fighter AB for physical blasts, expanded element at level 5/10/15, Infusions have expanded element list once unlocked, and more composite combos.

I also like burn as a concept but is too crippling as it is considering MAD. Play testing halved burn penalties (rounded up) has seen positive results. Have noticed that the effects of talents aren't near strong enough for many of them considering the cost associated with taking burn and the opportunity cost of them being so limited in number and uses.

[DrMartin]

[stuff on elemental overflow]

My only caveat is that I think its effects should be purely defensive. Elemental Overflow should be a safety net for high-burn days and a visual trigger for bystanders (including your party and enemies) - not something you burn yourself for to increase your offensive power.

I get what you mean from a game-stat perspective, but setting people that stands too close to you on fire is a pretty good defensive measure as well :D

And, on a slightly more serious note, auras like this are also something that the player has more control over - fortification is nice and all, but if it works or not is largely out of the player´s hand. Giving Aura-like abilities to Elemental Overflow give the player more active, tactical choices related to their positioning. Say Elemental Overflow´s ability for wood is making the spaces around you difficult terrain, or Air blocks gases, dispels fog and blocks/penalizes ranged attacks. Now the kineticist is a small mobile area of elemental-themed battlefield control, which works independently from its blasting.

Spoiler: Red Tide stuff

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For those of us not familiar with this system, where can we find the Red Tide rules?

the rules for domain management are in an expansion to Red Tide called An Echo, Resounding. Is on Drivethrough

[Psyren]

I'm compiling notes based on the great discussion in this thread and I had a question:

Kinetic Blast only counts as a weapon for the purposes of feats, such as Weapon Focus. I feel like there's a weakness I'm missing because of that wording. In what ways can you treat Kinetic Blast as a weapon, and which ways not? Are there common buffs or techniques available to other classes that aren't available to the Kineticist, and if so, which ones? Conductive weapons look like they work with Kinetic Blast - how do they interact, and do they help or hurt the Kineticist?

I get what you mean from a game-stat perspective, but setting people that stands too close to you on fire is a pretty good defensive measure as well :D

And, on a slightly more serious note, auras like this are also something that the player has more control over - fortification is nice and all, but if it works or not is largely out of the player´s hand. Giving Aura-like abilities to Elemental Overflow give the player more active, tactical choices related to their positioning. Say Elemental Overflow´s ability for wood is making the spaces around you difficult terrain, or Air blocks gases, dispels fog and blocks/penalizes ranged attacks. Now the kineticist is a small mobile area of elemental-themed battlefield control, which works independently from its blasting.

I like these ideas, but not sure if they should be baseline, or talents/feats. Certainly creating a bunch of difficult terrain around you anytime you pass a certain burn threshold is not something your party is going to be too happy with you for doing. Similarly, radiating fire damage passively could have negative consequences in some locations.

[Kurald Galain]

Are there common buffs or techniques available to other classes that aren't available to the Kineticist,

Many common buffs, such as bard song and the Prayer spell, explicitly add to weapon damage rollls, so not to kinblasts.

[Alexvrahr]

Conductive weapons work with a kinetic blast and can make bows a competitive option for the kineticist. Worked example here.

There's a bunch of feats which don't work for a kineticist because they don't wield the blast, especially style feats when in melee.

[Rynjin]

Many common buffs, such as bard song and the Prayer spell, explicitly add to weapon damage rollls, so not to kinblasts.

?

Presumably this text: "Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus." means the same for Kinetic Blasts as for Ray spells, per the relevant FAQ.

[Kurald Galain]

Presumably this text: "Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus." means the same for Kinetic Blasts as for Ray spells, per the relevant FAQ.

But a kinblast is not a ray, and neither bard song nor the Prayer spell is a feat. So you might presume so but that's not what the rules say. (edit) and the point of this thread is to suggest that maybe they should.

[Darg]

Kinetic blast isn't a weapon, but it does have infusions that turn it into one such as kinetic blade. So, kinetic blast would indeed benefit from weapon only effects if infused.

Due to the very vague wording of the benefit from feats, it technically can be specialized in if multiclassing fighter.