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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Welcome all, N. Jolly here to introduce a new project from the Legendary Games team. Here's what Jason Nelson, the publisher, has to say on it:

    PROJECT #2: COREFINDER - This is Pathfinder Refined. It retains the core structure of Pathfinder 1st Ed and is intended to be generally backwards compatible with it, in particular on the GM side, so that existing PFRPG monsters and adventures can be used without the need for massive revisions. It has a lot more room for innovation and redesign on the player side when it comes to classes, feats, and spells. This is an edition that distills the very best of Pathfinder 1E - it fixes the broken, clarifies the muddy, purges the chaff, condenses the redundant, reins in the OP, improves the lame, and polishes what's already good.

    It also has a second purpose, which is to extract the core essence of Pathfinder 1E to its Core (hence the Corefinder name) in a way akin to the 1980s Rules Cyclopedia for the BECMI series of D&D modules, and it will present genre-free core for the rules that can be adapted to any genre, PLUS a Corefinder Fantasy module that incorporates magic, magic items, and all the trappings of a traditional PF/D&D-style game. Whether we publish these as separate books or an omnibus is more of a logistical question than anything else, but we would like to have the root Corefinder able to be adapted to different genres and styles.
    This project is going to be to Pathfinder what Pathfinder was to 3.5, revised by the best of the third party scene. Considering the pedigree of our developers and designers, I can promise that this is going to be the definitive version of the game, and the base rules will be made with lots of ideas and concepts that have helped make Pathfinder great in mind.

    For those who would like to stay in the loop directly, there's also the Legendary Games Discord, a place where you can speak with the designers directly about this new project, make suggestions, and use that one emote I have of myself!

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    This sounds fantastic.

    is there going to be a wiki? PFSRD is pathfinder's greatest asset in my mind.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Well, that's certainly ironic.

    But I think there's a marked difference here... when 4E was released, WOTC did their best to bury 3E (although that didn't work) and Paizo was already famous for their adventures and Dragon magazine. Whereas now, when P2 is released, Paizo continues to support the older game P1, and Legendary is decidedly less famous and well-known. In other words, is there anything that makes this stand out from the plethora of 3E Heartbreakers?
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Well, I'm interested. I was always fond of LG's Pathfinder 1 supplements.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMartin View Post
    This sounds fantastic.

    is there going to be a wiki? PFSRD is pathfinder's greatest asset in my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Well, I'm interested. I was always fond of LG's Pathfinder 1 supplements.
    We do have plans on a wiki, yes. And we've generally enjoyed writing them too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well, that's certainly ironic.

    But I think there's a marked difference here... when 4E was released, WOTC did their best to bury 3E (although that didn't work) and Paizo was already famous for their adventures and Dragon magazine. Whereas now, when P2 is released, Paizo continues to support the older game P1, and Legendary is decidedly less famous and well-known. In other words, is there anything that makes this stand out from the plethora of 3E Heartbreakers?
    There's quite a few things to touch on here, so let me try to take it piece by piece.

    1. Legendary Games doesn't need to sell this project on the same scale of Pathfinder for it to be a success. There's a lot of these projects that think they need to do better than they do in order to be a success, but due to the size of the team, we're not beholden to the same numbers as Paizo is when denoting what is a specific project. Because of this, we have quite a bit more freedom in what we can do with the system, and a better sense of scope for what is needed to be done.

    2. The Legendary Games team as a whole. Having worked with a lot of these people, I can say I trust them a lot more than others I've seen to innovate the concepts that have made 3.X such a successful game. Also for anyone who has ever participated in my playtests, I'd like to believe that I've shown a willingness to accept feedback and critique. In a lot of cases, feedback has helped make for a better and more exciting project, and I can say the entire LG staff is going to bring that same openess to this project. I'm aware of GitP and their history with Paizo regarding feedback, bannings, and other such things. So I hope that we can invite constructive feedback from the community and treat you all with respect for your varying viewpoints. Plus no other project had me, and I'm awesome.

    3. Go ahead and check Legendary Games's history with kickstarters and delivering on large scale quality products. It would be hard to find another third party publisher who has as good a track record for keeping promises and quality with their projects on a large scale. Legendary Games has constantly shown its ability to produce results on larger projects, meaning something of this scope is entirely within the publisher's capability to put out. Paizo themselves trusted Legendary Games to do the second edition version of Kingmaker.

    4. Legendary Games is one of the (if not the) highest rated third party publisher on a consistent basis, showing an understanding of the 3.X system that I believe outstrips many others who have attempted similar ventures. The quality of our adventures, class supplements, races, and other content has garnered near universal praise in review, and the studio has been acknowledged by the industry at large, having been nominated at the ENnies.

    So if you're interested, come check it out, we always welcome people. At the end of the day though, we're going to keep making the best games we can because that's the kind of people we are. A lot of us are life long gamers who simply want to re imagine something that's given us endless hours of enjoyment. In that way, we're no different from anyone else who has tried, because this is absolutely a labor of love. We love our games, our community, and our dice. And if we've done our job right, hopefully you'll love our games too ;)
    Last edited by N. Jolly; 2020-06-25 at 04:40 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Let me clarify that a bit.

    It's great that you're doing this for the art. However, I think it will be hard (for me, at least) to find anyone willing to play it. There are dozens of D&D'esque games in the market and everybody has their own personal favorite, but the only systems with enough support/interest to actually form a group for are PF and 5E.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Let me clarify that a bit.

    It's great that you're doing this for the art. However, I think it will be hard (for me, at least) to find anyone willing to play it. There are dozens of D&D'esque games in the market and everybody has their own personal favorite, but the only systems with enough support/interest to actually form a group for are PF and 5E.
    And that's fair, seeing as this project is still new, we're going to be working on advertising it more as well as drumming up interest for the idea. Considering how wide the RPG sphere is, you'd be shocked how many smaller games are able to find a sustainable player base. Stuff you've barely heard of is still getting groups together, and again, we don't need to have a player base the size of PF or 5.e to be successful here. So yeah, you may not be interested, but we've done enough research to see that quite a few people are interested in this to the point that it is a viable business model. And we may not sway you, that's fine. We just have to generate enough interest to make a sustainable market for ourselves, which we believe we can do. And part of that involves posting about it wherever we can while keeping people updated on it, like we are here. We're cool answering any questions you or anyone else have about this project, and if it's not your thing, that's fine too.

    We aren't just doing this for the art, and a lot of market planning has gone into this. Trust me, this wasn't a whim.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Originally Posted by N. Jolly
    We aren't just doing this for the art, and a lot of market planning has gone into this.
    Can you elaborate on this? What's involved in your market planning?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    While Paizo certainly has my undying loyalty, not just for continuing/improving my favorite TTRPG 3.5 but for proving that open-source gaming can be (very) commercially successful - I'm happy to keep a close eye on this project, especially if it's backwards compatible with PF1. For example, if the Corefinder Wizard gets toned down/split into schools, and the problematic spells on its list themselves like Planar Binding get suitably nerfed or some spells get moved to other schools etc, I'd be interested in either playing Corefinder directly or just taking their wizard and porting it into my PF1 or 3.P.C games.

    My preliminary impression is that this seems MUCH closer to what I wanted PF2 to be than PF2 itself (or Legend) did.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    While Paizo certainly has my undying loyalty, not just for continuing/improving my favorite TTRPG 3.5 but for proving that open-source gaming can be (very) commercially successful - I'm happy to keep a close eye on this project, especially if it's backwards compatible with PF1. For example, if the Corefinder Wizard gets toned down/split into schools, and the problematic spells on its list themselves like Planar Binding get suitably nerfed or some spells get moved to other schools etc, I'd be interested in either playing Corefinder directly or just taking their wizard and porting it into my PF1 or 3.P.C games.

    My preliminary impression is that this seems MUCH closer to what I wanted PF2 to be than PF2 itself (or Legend) did.
    I find it funny that you bring up the wizard, because we're actually working on the Legendary Wizard right now. I'm not sure if it'll be perfect, mostly because the Wizard is less a class and more a collection of spells. And spells are what are most broken, so this is mostly trying to make a more interesting frame from which to hang those spells. Doing that is well...it's rough. What we are doing is making specialization matter more and giving more metamagic options to help make them more fun to play. We're also giving the option of arcanist casting because I love that kind of casting.

    Ideally, Corefinder will slot into PF and 3.P.X games as well as PF did with 3.5; there'll be issues, but we'll be keeping a mind on making sure things are reasonably comfortable. And as stated in the original post, this isn't just going to be for sword and fantasy, we're looking on diverging into sci fi, modern, and other such concepts (god, modern d20 seems like it's gonna be so fun to design).

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Can you elaborate on this? What's involved in your market planning?
    Let me try to get you a proper response here. I'm just a writer/project manager/community manager, so the market planning isn't in my scope.
    Last edited by N. Jolly; 2020-06-25 at 01:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Can you elaborate on this? What's involved in your market planning?
    We look at sales trends for PF1, PF2, 5E, and other game systems we use in our design, feedback from our customers, conversations with other companies, and even message board conversations, and having done that over the past two years we think there's a viable market for a refined, streamlined, and improved version of the basic PF1/3.x generational chassis.

    It's less a brand-new system and more a (hopefully) perfected version of what a certain slice of the gamer-sphere is already playing. They keep playing "Pathfinder" (1st Ed), but with an improved ruleset, classes, etc., but still able to use their existing PFRPG bestiaries and adventures. Plus we aim to create a more modular system for broadening the base PFRPG engine for other genres. We'll see how it goes.

    As noted upthread, the scale at which we're operating allows us to do things differently from what WotC or Paizo would need to do. We have a long history of taking on and delivering massive projects across multiple systems, from adventure sagas to rules expansions and campaign world books, so the scale of this project is in no way daunting for us. At the same time, we can have a profitable venture with Corefinder even if at the end of the day our sales are in the hundreds rather than the thousands.

    P.S. Of course, thousands and more would be great!
    Last edited by LegendaryGames; 2020-06-25 at 01:24 PM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jolly View Post
    I find it funny that you bring up the wizard, because we're actually working on the Legendary Wizard right now. I'm not sure if it'll be perfect, mostly because the Wizard is less a class and more a collection of spells. And spells are what are most broken, so this is mostly trying to make a more interesting frame from which to hang those spells. Doing that is well...it's rough. What we are doing is making specialization matter more and giving more metamagic options to help make them more fun to play. We're also giving the option of arcanist casting because I love that kind of casting.
    I suggest that, if you stick with any version of Vancian at all, that you do indeed go with the Arcanist approach (i.e. divorcing the preparation of a spell from the slots or other resources used to cast it.) 5e did that with all of its prepared casters, and we know how successful that turned out. If anything, the other approach (e.g. "I prepared exactly three fireballs this morning, and hopefully I don't need more") should be the optional variant.

    Also, borrow scaling cantrips from 5e - whipping out the crossbow feels pretty bad. Having scaling at-will magic in the core game also gives you a lot more design space to benchmark other classes with at-will powers later.

    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jolly View Post
    Ideally, Corefinder will slot into PF and 3.P.X games as well as PF did with 3.5; there'll be issues, but we'll be keeping a mind on making sure things are reasonably comfortable. And as stated in the original post, this isn't just going to be for sword and fantasy, we're looking on diverging into sci fi, modern, and other such concepts (god, modern d20 seems like it's gonna be so fun to design).
    Urban fantasy is indeed a criminally underrepresented niche. But it certainly is a niche - I'd recommend nailing the crunch/feel of the medieval variant first and then branching out, but you guys know the publication/marketing arm of this better than I do.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2020-06-25 at 01:56 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jolly View Post
    Considering how wide the RPG sphere is, you'd be shocked how many smaller games are able to find a sustainable player base.
    Expanding on this, it's much easier to pick up a game as your side if it's not that hard. Part of the goal of CF is streamlined rules. That means if someone's primary game is PF2e but a GM wants to try out CF, it will be much less hard for the player to make a character and play their first game. It's less of a time investment. That's part of why "it has a lot more room for innovation and redesign on the player side when it comes to classes, feats, and spells," is important to me, both as a designer and a player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Urban fantasy is indeed a criminally underrepresented niche. But it certainly is a niche - I'd recommend nailing the crunch/feel of the medieval variant first and then branching out, but you guys know the publication/marketing arm of this better than I do.
    I too am chomping at the bit for this, not least because I very much want to write the Pacific Northwest setting I've been pondering for a while, in which there are a number of portals to Faerie you can accidentally wander into from downtown Portland (notably in Powell's Books) and there's a shadowy cabal of aboleths who appear to have their fingers tentacles in Washington politics, trying to create the next big earthquake and sink Seattle into the sea...
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Could you lay out the specific design goals of Corefinder? If it is intended strictly as a 3.X revision, then clairifying how it is intended to be used or work compared to previous iterations would also be useful. You certainly have my attention, I want to see where this is heading.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Originally Posted by LegendaryGames
    We look at sales trends for PF1, PF2, 5E, and other game systems we use in our design....
    Extremely interesting, thanks. Where do you find the data on the sales trends?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    "so that existing PFRPG monsters and adventures can be used without the need for massive revisions"

    For me this is the major thing, I wish you the best.

    I also want to say that this seems to me weirdly long overdue. Pathfinder was in need of a revision and since paizo isn't doing it, its true legendary games is probably the next best company to go for it.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Extremely interesting, thanks. Where do you find the data on the sales trends?
    Our own sales numbers, tracking sales rankings on sites like Amazon and DrivethruRPG, and talking with other publishers.

    It's not perfect, but sales information never is. It gives us enough of a snapshot to make some informed decisions and educated guesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exelsisxax View Post
    Could you lay out the specific design goals of Corefinder? If it is intended strictly as a 3.X revision, then clairifying how it is intended to be used or work compared to previous iterations would also be useful. You certainly have my attention, I want to see where this is heading.
    I think Jolly linked it above, but in a nutshell:
    1. It's a refinement of Pathfinder RPG (1st Edition), so it's another evolutionary step along the 3.x tree.

    2. There will be changes to gameplay mechanics in how the game runs at the table. It's not going to be just a "pile every rule into one big book" project.

    3. Most other changes will be on the players' side - how classes and characters work, how you gain and use feats and skills. Each player can be the expert on their character, so there's a lot more room to play around with the system.

    4. Monster design is likely to lean closer to PF 2nd Ed or 5E in style, with top-down design of "what does this monster do - make it do that and just add the pieces you need" rather than bottom-up 3.x/PFRPG design of "assemble all individual pieces to make every monster conform exhaustively to PC-facing rules."

    5. The general scope of numbers will still be close enough on the GM side that you *should* be able to use most of your monsters and adventures without a lot of need to retrofit. Just use the numbers as they exist; don't try to rebuild creatures from the ground up. The skeletal structure of a PFRPG monster will look different than what the PCs look like, and that's okay. If we're making new monsters (and if the project is a success, I'm sure we'll produce monster books), then sure, we'll build them using the Corefinder assumptions and structures, but they'll arrive at a very similar destination.

    6. The intention is that a GM will be able to use their existing GM resources to run PFRPG adventures and use monsters they already have without having to do radical alterations. We do plan to create adventures for the system, but really, the biggest challenge in using an existing Pathfinder adventure with Corefinder might be in the realm of treasure, since "Big Six" magic items are so common as treasure.

    7. A lot of the process is winnowing out redundancies, including things that currently exist as extras that were bolted onto the system along the way and weaving them directly into the system. Notably, tons of feats that do things that should just be ordinary "everybody can do them" abilities or features of skill use or equipment use.

    Importantly, this is a core rules root system and then a primary fantasy module. It will not contain everything in a single book that has accrued over a decade of PFRPG and another decade of 3.x before that. But we like to think that a retrospective understanding will allow us to create a fun and exciting evolutionary iteration of that game engine that will be less cumbersome and more fun from low level to high level.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Extremely interesting, thanks. Where do you find the data on the sales trends?
    In addition to what LG said, IIRC you can purchase market intelligence from sites like ICv2 as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegendaryGames View Post
    The skeletal structure of a PFRPG monster will look different than what the PCs look like, and that's okay.
    Excellent. This is one of the major areas where I thought Legend's design failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegendaryGames View Post
    6. The intention is that a GM will be able to use their existing GM resources to run PFRPG adventures and use monsters they already have without having to do radical alterations. We do plan to create adventures for the system, but really, the biggest challenge in using an existing Pathfinder adventure with Corefinder might be in the realm of treasure, since "Big Six" magic items are so common as treasure.
    I highly suggest that you include Automatic Bonus Progression (or something similar) in core, even if only as an option, and provide the GM guidelines for running low-treasure adventures/stripping item bloat out of APs. This is going to be your best bet as far as killing Big Six while still being compatible with existing modules.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegendaryGames View Post
    7. A lot of the process is winnowing out redundancies, including things that currently exist as extras that were bolted onto the system along the way and weaving athem directly into the system. Notably, tons of feats that do things that should just be ordinary "everybody can do them" abilities or features of skill use or equipment use.
    Yes! All of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by N. Jolly View Post
    This project is going to be to Pathfinder what Pathfinder was to 3.5, revised by the best of the third party scene. Considering the pedigree of our developers and designers, I can promise that this is going to be the definitive version of the game, and the base rules will be made with lots of ideas and concepts that have helped make Pathfinder great in mind.
    So, what major mechanical changes can we expect - or at least, what can you tell us about right now? Are there any particular modifications to Pathfinder you can highlight?
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Originally Posted by Psyren
    In addition to what LG said, IIRC you can purchase market intelligence from sites like ICv2 as well.
    Interesting, thanks.

    As it happens, I just came across this site from another angle and noticed an item about a new president at Paizo. I don't know much about Paizo's internal operations, so not sure what this means.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Extremely interesting, thanks. Where do you find the data on the sales trends?
    Data is pretty hard to find. A lot of publishers are quiet about their own numbers, and even publishers can struggle to have the full picture on their own sales (as there's a difference between how many copies you may have sold, and how many copies a reseller may have sold).

    As previously said, ICv2 is a source of information, and on Drivethru you can get a sense for sales on specific products and publishers through their medal system. Some publishers are willing to share their data, most notably Evil Hat who openly shares theirs.

    While it's not quite the same, you can also get a sense of a game's audience through online game stats, such as Roll20's Orr Report and Fantasy Grounds.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2020-06-26 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Interesting, thanks.

    As it happens, I just came across this site from another angle and noticed an item about a new president at Paizo. I don't know much about Paizo's internal operations, so not sure what this means.
    Entirely coincidental and unrelated.

    Lisa Stevens has been considering retirement for a while and this is the next phase of that "off-ramp" transition. She's remaining CEO for the next few years as Jeff Alvarez, the new President (who was previously the COO), takes on an increasing share of day-to-day operations. Lisa's legendary track record speaks for itself, but Jeff also is an amazing guy, talented, smart, and one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, and I'm sure he'll do great.
    Last edited by LegendaryGames; 2020-06-26 at 11:13 AM.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Originally Posted by LegendaryGames
    Lisa's legendary track record speaks for itself, but Jeff also is an amazing guy, talented, smart, and one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, and I'm sure he'll do great.
    As someone who doesn't follow Paizo that closely, and who's not familiar with individual staff, can you tell me more about what makes Lisa legendary?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    As someone who doesn't follow Paizo that closely, and who's not familiar with individual staff, can you tell me more about what makes Lisa legendary?
    Uh, you mean besides founding Paizo?

    Her background speaks for itself I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Originally Posted by AmberVael
    While it's not quite the same, you can also get a sense of a game's audience through online game stats, such as Roll20's Orr Report and Fantasy Grounds.
    These are fascinating, thanks.

    I don't have the industry immersion to finely parse these numbers, but I do notice a difference in percentage for Pathfinder between the two reports. FG is reporting nearly twice the percentage of Pathfinder games as Roll20, more than would be expected from simply combining the percentages from PF1 and PF2 on Roll20. Does this mean FG is slightly more amenable to running Pathfinder games, or is there some other factor involved?

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    These are fascinating, thanks.

    I don't have the industry immersion to finely parse these numbers, but I do notice a difference in percentage for Pathfinder between the two reports. FG is reporting nearly twice the percentage of Pathfinder games as Roll20, more than would be expected from simply combining the percentages from PF1 and PF2 on Roll20. Does this mean FG is slightly more amenable to running Pathfinder games, or is there some other factor involved?
    Glad to help! It's something I've taken an interest in, so I've been collecting the resources I can find.

    It's hard for me to know exactly why the numbers differ on the platforms as I don't have much experience with them. But most such platforms strongly supports specific systems, and the strength or weakness of that support can certainly influence popularity. I've heard that Roll20 may be having some issues with its support of the Pathfinder system, which may be driving its numbers down (specifically PF2, I believe, which would help explain the very low percentage it has on Roll20). A similar gap can be seen in the size of their Call of Cthulhu games, with Roll20 displaying a much larger audience.

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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    FG is reporting nearly twice the percentage of Pathfinder games as Roll20
    Oh, I can explain that. The default Pathfinder sheet on roll20 is an overcomplicated multi-page monstrosity that is just very slow and awkward to work with, so a standard solution is to learn macro language, write your own macros, and ignore the sheet.

    Mind you, these sheets are not made by the site but by the community; and this one just happened to end up with a "technically correct is the BEST KIND of correct" situation. A much better/simpler/smoother sheet also exists, but not everybody knows that, and it's not the default. That could easily explain why PF players tend to prefer a different platform.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by LegendaryGames View Post
    4. Monster design is likely to lean closer to PF 2nd Ed or 5E in style, with top-down design of "what does this monster do - make it do that and just add the pieces you need" rather than bottom-up 3.x/PFRPG design of "assemble all individual pieces to make every monster conform exhaustively to PC-facing rules."
    [...]
    The skeletal structure of a PFRPG monster will look different than what the PCs look like, and that's okay. If we're making new monsters (and if the project is a success, I'm sure we'll produce monster books), then sure, we'll build them using the Corefinder assumptions and structures, but they'll arrive at a very similar destination.
    While I'm definitely all for making monsters more distinctive instead of just a grab bag of standard monster qualities, I feel that monsters and PCs using the same chassis is one of the absolute best design aspects of 3e and PF1 from a DM perspective because their approach of "an Orc Warrior and an Orc Shaman are Orcs with levels in Fighter and Cleric, done" is much easier, more consistent, and more extensible than the 4e approach of "an Orc Skullsmasher swapping out his club for a spear makes it an Orc Gutpoker with a completely different stat block for no reason" or the AD&D/5e approach of "an NPC Orc Wizard is an Orc with a handful of arbitrary spells slapped on and zero resemblance to a PC Orc Wizard."

    So if you must ditch PC/NPC transparency (which I personally can't stand but do acknowledge that it's more popular these days), I'd suggest you at least keep the common use cases of (A) players wanting to play PCs with monster races and (B) DMs wanting to quickly and easily customize humanoid NPCs with class-like abilities in mind when figuring out your monster chassis so that you can provide robust rules for those (or at least reasonable guidelines) instead of requiring players to hack things together on their own to make those cases work.
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    Default Re: [Legendary Games] Corefinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Mind you, these sheets are not made by the site but by the community; and this one just happened to end up with a "technically correct is the BEST KIND of correct" situation. A much better/simpler/smoother sheet also exists, but not everybody knows that, and it's not the default. That could easily explain why PF players tend to prefer a different platform.
    Just to be sure I'm using that better sheet - could you shoot a link to it by any chance, or instructions to reach it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    While I'm definitely all for making monsters more distinctive instead of just a grab bag of standard monster qualities, I feel that monsters and PCs using the same chassis is one of the absolute best design aspects of 3e and PF1 from a DM perspective because their approach of "an Orc Warrior and an Orc Shaman are Orcs with levels in Fighter and Cleric, done" is much easier, more consistent, and more extensible than the 4e approach of "an Orc Skullsmasher swapping out his club for a spear makes it an Orc Gutpoker with a completely different stat block for no reason" or the AD&D/5e approach of "an NPC Orc Wizard is an Orc with a handful of arbitrary spells slapped on and zero resemblance to a PC Orc Wizard."
    I took their statement to mean "monsters and PCs will have some things in common like they do in PF1 today, like type/subtype/HD/feat every odd level etc - but not every monster will be built with the assumption that you could play it starting from level 1." Some monsters have abilities that are difficult to balance at any level except the one they are CR'ed for, like a vampire's weaknesses combined with its difficulty to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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