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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Just doing a bit of a look through some more recent strips and seeing 1131.

    Assuming that Durkon had forgotten to hand off Kudzu and made a path for Belkar to stab his undead heart, then would Belkar have went through Kudzu to kill Durkon or would he have taken care to avoid harming the child?

    I am not sure - character development would seem to be 'don't kill the child' but he did look pretty angry at the time and he fell (and stabbed) where the child was.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-06-25 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Just doing a bit of a look through some more recent strips and seeing 1311.

    Assuming that Durkon had forgotten to hand off Kudzu and made a path for Belker to stab his undead heart, then would Belker have went through Kudzu to kill Durkon or would he have taken care to avoid harming the child?

    I am not sure - character development would seem to be 'don't kill the child' but he did look pretty angry at the time and he fell (and stabbed) where the child was.
    Both from a practical and moral standpoint, Belkar probably would have violently shoved kudzu off before stabbing Durkon.
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Just doing a bit of a look through some more recent strips and seeing 1311.

    Assuming that Durkon had forgotten to hand off Kudzu and made a path for Belker to stab his undead heart, then would Belker have went through Kudzu to kill Durkon or would he have taken care to avoid harming the child?

    I am not sure - character development would seem to be 'don't kill the child' but he did look pretty angry at the time and he fell (and stabbed) where the child was.
    Honestly I'd thought the comic would show Belkar taking Kudzu hostage and forcing Hilgya to resurrect Durkon, but I am somewhat glad it did not go that way.

    Personally I think Belkar would've just shoved Kudzu out of the way (and let him fall onto the floor or something).

    EDIT: Uh, jinx?
    Last edited by understatement; 2020-06-25 at 10:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    Character-wise, in universe? Maybe. Maybe not. Belkar was - and still is, at this time of the released comics - is on the knife's edge when it comes to development right about now. Between Mr Scruffy and polymorphed Bloodfeast, he's been showing a steadily increasing disdain for attacking / seeing an attack on things that are small and squishy, but he's also not, y'know, a good person. If he saw Kudzu as an acceptable loss to smoke Durkula, then he might very well have.

    However, all those questions and theories go out the window when you consider the fact that, meta-narrative wise, as in regarding the fact that all of oots is written by a human being, Rich probably wasn't going to write a scene in which a character we're supposed to empathise with, even just a little bit, straight-up oneshots a baby. I believe somewhere in the annals of the forum there's a quote of him stating that Kudzu doesn't have a statblock, because Rich didn't want to give a literal three month old one, because the main reason creatures have stat blocks is for combat? Therefore, I think it's probably unlikely that if Durkon hadn't moved Kudzu out of harms way, that Belkar would have hurt him.
    Last edited by deltamire; 2020-06-25 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    It's not a scene that was ever going to be written. But with that out of the way...

    I think he wouldn't have. Much of Belkar's anger stemmed from survivor's guilt and feeling indebted to Durkon in particular. His rage towards Vamp Durkon was due to the perceived affront to Durkon. I think even in his rage Belkar would be able to realize harming Kudzu would have rendered it all meaningless.

    It's irrelevant, though. Durkon couldn't make a path to his undead heart without also getting Kudzu out of the way.
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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Just doing a bit of a look through some more recent strips and seeing 1311.

    Assuming that Durkon had forgotten to hand off Kudzu and made a path for Belker to stab his undead heart, then would Belker have went through Kudzu to kill Durkon or would he have taken care to avoid harming the child?

    I am not sure - character development would seem to be 'don't kill the child' but he did look pretty angry at the time and he fell (and stabbed) where the child was.
    • Narratively: Killing Kudzu would undermine the critical scene's point of Durkon asserting control over the entire scenario (the same reason he handed Kudzu off in the first place).
    • Protagonistically: Belkar is certainly smart enough to extrapolate from a pet/owner relationship to a child/parent relationship; so even if he's far off the mark he isn't likely to harm Kudzu anymore than Durkon is to harm Mr. Scruffy.
    • Antagonistically: While there's certainly conceptual space for Hilgya to lose Kudzu for blithely dragging him along on her personal revenge quest, being able to accurately blame the Order rather than herself for the specifics would defeat the purpose of doing so.
    • Tactically: Belkar isn't going to risk failing to kill HPoH by trying to aim for his heart through an opaque Kudzu.
    • Mechanically: Soft cover provided by creatures only affects ranged attacks; Belkar would have to intentionally try to hit Kudzu instead of Durkon for this to come up.

    • Literally: I'm unfamiliar with the hypothetical belker in this scenario.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    • Literally: I'm unfamiliar with the hypothetical belker in this scenario.
    And I am normally try to be careful with the characters names too - fixed in the opening post.

    Edit: also fixed the text of the link (the link itself was fine).
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-06-25 at 01:04 PM.

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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    I think he would kill them. Risque is just too big.
    Last edited by Precure; 2020-06-25 at 01:21 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Would have shoved him off out of practical reasons. Its hard enough to stake someone's heart, to let him also have a baby shield in the way.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belker have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    Much of Belkar's anger stemmed from survivor's guilt and feeling indebted to Durkon in particular. His rage towards Vamp Durkon was due to the perceived affront to Durkon. I think even in his rage Belkar would be able to realize harming Kudzu would have rendered it all meaningless.
    I can't believe ppl don't get this. Did they completely miss Belkar's feelings toward Durkon's sacrifice?

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Belkar may be (or have been) evil-aligned, but even he isn't EVIL enough to stab a baby. End of story.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    I think there are a number of evil characters who aren’t evil enough to straight up shank a baby. Though pre character development Belkar might’ve been willing to.

    I’m curious, which evil characters in OOTS do you think would or would not be willing to kill a baby?

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I think there are a number of evil characters who arenĀ’t evil enough to straight up shank a baby. Though pre character development Belkar mightĀ’ve been willing to.

    IĀ’m curious, which evil characters in OOTS do you think would or would not be willing to kill a baby?
    Unwilling to (at least personally):

    Redcloak is not willing to even kill Azure citizens, barring the whole "unmaking-the-world" thing. He probablyyy won't kill a baby for craps and giggles.

    Not sure about Malack -- depends on what kind of "children" he vampirized.

    Gannji & Enor -- they're not Evil, just rather amoral. Don't think they'd harm innocents.

    Laurin and Miron probably won't, especially if it gives bad rep.

    Oona probably won't. She doesn't seem particularly malicious.

    The Orcs at Orc Island probably wouldn't either.

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    Willing to (especially personally):

    Belkar pre-development is very much willing to kill young children.

    Xykon killed Fyron's son, which remains a greater mystery.

    Kubota is willing to kill the Katos' unborn child.

    Thog killed a young Larry Gardener. Not a baby, but he's definitely a young teenager. Since Nale and Sabine make no objection (and later kidnap a teenager) they fall here as well.

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    Gin-Jun impressively rationalizes himself into killing innocents.


    Greg would easily allow Kudzu to die, so yes, he would kill a baby.

    Tarquin would do it "for the narrative" or something.

    The Mother Black Dragon. Yikes.

    Bozzok & Crystal would; if the latter sends elderly into a coma, she'd definitely would be willing to kill the young.

    Wow, I haven't realize how many beyond-evil villains there are in the comic.

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    No. The Belkar of OoTS #1 probably would have. Probably the Belkar of OoTS #300 too. But Belkar's moral arc has had a few really major moments, with the hallucination of Shojo, the befriending of Mr. Scruffy, and his epiphany at Durkon's self sacrifice being the big three. He's on the other side of all of those, and all three are in the way of killing a baby. Especially when it's Durkon's baby.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    The morality of killing the baby is complicated by the situation. If the Order fails, the world gets destroyed, and the dwarves, Kudzu included, all get sent to a bad afterlife. If Belkar's faced with a hypothetical situation where that will happen unless he kills Kudzu, logically the moral thing would be to kill him, because Kudzu dying in battle would be doing Kudzu (and therefore Durkon) a favor. People aren't purely logical, though, and most of us would struggle to do such a thing. Belkar has the stomach to make that sort of hard choice, though, so if the Order needed to kill a baby for altruistic reasons he'd be the one to turn to.

    All of that said, Belkar probably wouldn't be thinking through the moral dilemma under the circumstances and would probably act out of emotion. My instinct is that means he wouldn't kill Kudzu, but others might disagree.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    I generally agree with that assessment. I don’t think Kubota killing a pregnant woman counts, but he seems like the type who would be totally willing to get one if this minions to kill a baby of it benefitted him politically, two little princes in the tower style.

    The guy from GDGU I think probably would be able to rationalize killing babies from monstrous races if he was highly motivated, though probably wouldn’t for the PC races.

    As for linear guild, I agree with yes on Thog and since Sabine is literally an incarnation of evil as well, yes there two. Nale was also down to sacrifice people with her so I agree with your assessment they are all pretty much fine with killing tons of innocent people and wouldn’t be bothered. Z we don’t know enough about, Hilgya it’s hard to say but I doubt she’d be willing to kill a baby. She reserves most of her ire for authority figures she perceives to be stifling her and since babies are helpless and powerless I don’t think she has anything against them.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Hilgya itĀ’s hard to say but I doubt sheĀ’d be willing to kill a baby. She reserves most of her ire for authority figures she perceives to be stifling her and since babies are helpless and powerless I donĀ’t think she has anything against them.
    Hilgya also handed Kudzu to Durkon - something which we have been given no indication was sufficently against her nature to justify a second will save (per Thanh).

    To clarify on the topic - I understand Belkar's character development and how much of the recent developments are around Durkon - the question is more on 'in a rage against a hated foe where he is falling while dual wielding weapons would he have the presence of mind to ensure he doesn't harm/kill the child', I would like to think 'yes' but am highly dubious.
    Looking at 1131 panel 2 Kudzu seemed fairly dubious about this also.

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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Whenever villains go around killing children (this includes babies, fyi) they tend to be both malicious and petty. Hilgya is actively petty, but she doesn't go around setting villages on fire or looting (there is no comic proof to support that she did), so I don't see why she has any reason to kill a baby. Rule of thumb: if the villain in OOTS is an utter asshat, then they definitely would kill children.

    I always thought the Dominate scene might've 'worked' because she's handing off the baby to a man(dwarf) she knows -- since subconsciously, she still has some sort of attachment to him? I dunno.

    Anyways, I'd like to revise my earlier opinion -- Belkar would also not kill Kudzu because Durkon would be heartbroken and pissed off when he gets Resurrected. Also, Hilgya would kill him. That's two angry dwarven clerics to contend with.

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Anyways, I'd like to revise my earlier opinion -- Belkar would also not kill Kudzu because Durkon would be heartbroken and pissed off when he gets Resurrected. Also, Hilgya would kill him. That's two angry dwarven clerics to contend with.
    I do like the sound of "Chaotic Evil doesn't mean Chaotic Stupid, QED."
    Belkar's moral fiber and lack thereof wouldn't have stopped him from shoving a baby out of the way for maximum stabbing efficiency or for not having to deal with the fact that he stabbed a baby.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-06-26 at 11:15 AM.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Yeah I agree with you, I think Hilgya didn’t get another will save handing Kudzu off because Durkon was ostensibly Kudzu’s father. It’s more likely that handing Kudzu fi his father was what didn’t go against her true nature. Which is good for Durkon I guess.

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Whenever villains go around killing children (this includes babies, fyi) they tend to be both malicious and petty. Hilgya is actively petty, but she doesn't go around setting villages on fire or looting (there is no comic proof to support that she did), so I don't see why she has any reason to kill a baby. Rule of thumb: if the villain in OOTS is an utter asshat, then they definitely would kill children.
    Yeah, about that... https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1114.html

    Hilgya has no moral opposition to setting settlements on fire, by her own admission. Here whole revenge scheme here also actively hurts other members of her clan that probably have nothing to do with decision making, some of whom could be very young, and she was willing to contemplate the possibility of just burning them all to death until she thought "nah, the smoke would be bad for my baby".

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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    Yeah, about that... https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1114.html

    Hilgya has no moral opposition to setting settlements on fire, by her own admission. Here whole revenge scheme here also actively hurts other members of her clan that probably have nothing to do with decision making, some of whom could be very young, and she was willing to contemplate the possibility of just burning them all to death until she thought "nah, the smoke would be bad for my baby".
    I have no disagreements there, but the fact that she remains at Firmament -- surrounded by much lower-level and even younger dwarves -- probably implies something. I don't think she'll go, "Nah, I'll kill these people for fun because I can," like Xykon or Thog or something.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Oh, definitely. Hilgya's brand of Evil is the "I'll do anything to get what I want, and I'll be petty about it." She's ok with the idea of killing everyone in her clan/destroying their lives because, in her mind, it's fine to do horrible things if it makes her happy in the moment. But she still has goals she pursues, it's not wanton evil with no logic behind it, even if twisted.

    Xykon is the guy who'll toss you in a pool of boiling blood while he strangles your wife because he thinks it's funny to see your horrified face while you drown, and he happened to be bored. Different types of Evil, but still evil.

    I think Hilgya would be ok with killing a baby if it meant furthering her goals, and has long as she had no emotional ties with the baby, but she would take no particular pleasure in this.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Basically, Xykon does evil stuff for the lulz, while for Hilgya it's just a means to an end. If it were easier to reach her goal by being nice, then she'd be nice.

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
    Basically, Xykon does evil stuff for the lulz, while for Hilgya it's just a means to an end. If it were easier to reach her goal by being nice, then she'd be nice.
    Keeping in mind that Hilgya is petty and impulsive and probably would think of some rationalization for why the option which involves harming the people she dislikes is the better option.

    Actually she'd probably cut to the chase and declare that getting revenge on those who slighted her is an important part of her goals, which would mean the nice option is locked out because revenge is generally considered not very nice.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Keeping in mind that Hilgya is petty and impulsive and probably would think of some rationalization for why the option which involves harming the people she dislikes is the better option.

    Actually she'd probably cut to the chase and declare that getting revenge on those who slighted her is an important part of her goals, which would mean the nice option is locked out because revenge is generally considered not very nice.
    If acting nice somehow achieved her goal of revenge, though, she would act nice.

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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Would Belkar have killed Kudzu?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    If acting nice somehow achieved her goal of revenge, though, she would act nice.
    True. Hilgya is perfectly capable of acting nice and civil. My input is more that her main motivation is achieving her own goals and sometimes her goal includes not being nice even when it'd be easier for both herself and everyone else if she focused on something else.

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