Are there any "smart" fighting games? (E.g. Dissidia)

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm looking for any fighting games that focus more on thought process than reaction time, ones that play almost closer to a strategy game than a fighting game.

Dissidia, for the PSP, comes to mind. Most of the attacks are well telegraphed, the dodges are fairly slow, and a lot of the gameplay revolves around working your opponent into a mistake that they knew they made. Very few surprises, and it plays like slow-motion rock-paper scissors.

Does anyone know of anything in the last 10 years that comes close to this?

[DataNinja]

Toribash is a turn-based fighting game, where you control your fighter's joints. I've seen it a little, and looks very complicated. Definitely one more focused on thinking than acting fast.

[Dienekes]

I'm looking for any fighting games that focus more on thought process than reaction time, ones that play almost closer to a strategy game than a fighting game.

Dissidia, for the PSP, comes to mind. Most of the attacks are well telegraphed, the dodges are fairly slow, and a lot of the gameplay revolves around working your opponent into a mistake that they knew they made. Very few surprises, and it plays like slow-motion rock-paper scissors.

Does anyone know of anything in the last 10 years that comes close to this?

Honestly, I think the art of working your opponents into mistakes that everyone recognizes they made is describing every successful high end fighting game once you get good enough. The whole point of footsies is to get the opponent to react in a way you can more readily punish. It just takes a long long time to get to the point that a new player can do that.

But if you want that but slower (and probably easier to learn to get to that level), uhh, Samurai Shodown maybe. For Honor kinda counts though it's much better balanced in it's 4v4 modes than the 1v1 modes. Last Blade 2. Bushido Blade.

[Man_Over_Game]

Honestly, I think the art of working your opponents into mistakes that everyone recognizes they made is describing every successful high end fighting game once you get good enough. The whole point of footsies is to get the opponent to react in a way you can more readily punish. It just takes a long long time to get to the point that a new player can do that.

But if you want that but slower (and probably easier to learn to get to that level), uhh, Samurai Shodown maybe. For Honor kinda counts though it's much better balanced in it's 4v4 modes than the 1v1 modes. Last Blade 2. Bushido Blade.

I definitely agree, that's why I tried to describe it as a bit slower and more focused on the decision-making process.

Spoiler: random ramblings/complaints about the genre overall

Show

The thing about high-end fighting games is that you're not usually limited in how smart you are, but how fast you can react and how much of the movesets you've memorized. You learn the supers, then you learn how to chain basic combos, then you learn how to block, then you learn how to use your strategy against a real player, then you learn what different attacks/combos are good against specific forms of blocking, and then you get a little faster so that you have time to expect things rather than blindly trying to make things work, and THEN you start being able to adapt against an opponent's split-second maneuvers.

It's a long, long road to get to that last point, with each stage of learning taking twice as long as the last. It doesn't really feel like there's much thinking until then, as it mostly just feels like a performance issue rather than "how do I play better than my opponent" issue.

For a comparison of what I mean, it's like the difference between two Mario Kart players competing either by comparing lap times (as you're both just racing towards a high score using the only methods you know how) and by playing on the same track (as you actually have to adapt to them and current circumstances). Playing a highly difficult fighting game, like Guilty Gear, as a casual doesn't really feel like an interactive contact sport as much of a "Either I win by doing this one thing I've practiced, or I don't". What you do may determine whether I win, but I don't have the skill needed to make it part of my game.

And telling someone that they have to basically practice as a 30 hour tutorial before they can start to "enjoy" the game as it was intended just...doesn't really sound like fun. I've certainly tried, many many times. I certainly understand every single Guilty Gear mechanic (and there's a LOT), I just can't actually do them in actual play. Which is why I finally decided to try to find a game that fits my playstyle rather than the other way around.

Those games are incredibly competitive, I can definitely agree to that, but I feel like they're only really, really made for 5% of the gaming population. I am not one of those 5%, so I'm hoping to find a fighting game that was designed for the other 95% of us.

I will definitely try the ones you suggested, though. I tried the Blazblue for the Switch (it was on sale in March for like $5), and it's fun, but it's not any slower or "smarter", it just has incredibly streamlined controls to make hitting the skill ceiling needed a notably bit easier. It effectively tries to make a noobie not get stumbled by the controls (and it does an excellent job at that, one I think other developers should take note of), but it still doesn't take into consideration the limitation of reaction time (which is really the most important thing in fighting games, IMO).

[Dienekes]

I definitely agree, that's why I tried to describe it as a bit slower and more focused on the decision-making process.

Spoiler: random ramblings/complaints about the genre overall

Show

The thing about high-end fighting games is that you're not usually limited in how smart you are, but how fast you can react and how much of the movesets you've memorized. You learn the supers, then you learn how to chain basic combos, then you learn how to block, then you learn how to use your strategy against a real player, then you learn what different attacks/combos are good against specific forms of blocking, and then you get a little faster so that you have time to expect things rather than blindly trying to make things work, and THEN you start being able to adapt against an opponent's split-second maneuvers.

It's a long, long road to get to that last point, with each stage of learning taking twice as long as the last. It doesn't really feel like there's much thinking until then, as it mostly just feels like a performance issue rather than "how do I play better than my opponent" issue.

For a comparison of what I mean, it's like the difference between two Mario Kart players competing either by comparing lap times (as you're both just racing towards a high score using the only methods you know how) and by playing on the same track (as you actually have to adapt to them and current circumstances). Playing a highly difficult fighting game, like Guilty Gear, as a casual doesn't really feel like an interactive contact sport as much of a "Either I win by doing this one thing I've practiced, or I don't". What you do may determine whether I win, but I don't have the skill needed to make it part of my game.

And telling someone that they have to basically practice as a 30 hour tutorial before they can start to "enjoy" the game as it was intended just...doesn't really sound like fun. I've certainly tried, many many times. I certainly understand every single Guilty Gear mechanic (and there's a LOT), I just can't actually do them in actual play. Which is why I finally decided to try to find a game that fits my playstyle rather than the other way around.

Those games are incredibly competitive, I can definitely agree to that, but I feel like they're only really, really made for 5% of the gaming population. I am not one of those 5%, so I'm hoping to find a fighting game that was designed for the other 95% of us.

I will definitely try the ones you suggested, though. I tried the Blazblue for the Switch (it was on sale in March for like $5), and it's fun, but it's not any slower or "smarter", it just has incredibly streamlined controls to make hitting the skill ceiling needed a notably bit easier. It effectively tries to make a noobie not get stumbled by the controls (and it does an excellent job at that, one I think other developers should take note of), but it still doesn't take into consideration the limitation of reaction time (which is really the most important thing in fighting games, IMO).

You see my criticism of the initial statement is declaring a subset smart implies the others are not smart games. When the desired tactical gameplay described is within those not smart games.

Or the criticism of reaction time determining success when it’s much more about muscle memory and prediction. I know for a while in Smash Bros, Hungrybox, one of the best players of Melee considered the fastest paced game in the franchise has reaction times were average. But he won because he knew precisely how people would act and react and planned for it. Also exploited some game mechanics but that’s kind of how fighting games work.

That said, I 100% agree that the barrier to entry to get to that level of play is ridiculously high and often requires the chosen game to be essentially the one game someone plays for awhile to reach that pinnacle which is not a process many people are willing to do. I know for me I’ve only put that much energy into SSBU and StarCraft.

Regardless, I hope my suggestions help you out a bit.

[GloatingSwine]

Fantasy Strike is designed to be maximally easy to execute so you can skip directly to the end layer of fighting game strategy, which is not about reacting but predicting what your opponent is going to do.

[Man_Over_Game]

Or the criticism of reaction time determining success when it’s much more about muscle memory and prediction. I know for a while in Smash Bros, Hungrybox, one of the best players of Melee considered the fastest paced game in the franchise has reaction times were average. But he won because he knew precisely how people would act and react and planned for it. Also exploited some game mechanics but that’s kind of how fighting games work.

Fantasy Strike is designed to be maximally easy to execute so you can skip directly to the end layer of fighting game strategy, which is not about reacting but predicting what your opponent is going to do.

I guess that's what I'm looking for. Something where the predictive stage of the game is accessible fairly early on. I used the word reactive, but you're absolutely right - prediction and manipulation are the terms I was looking for.

[darkdragoon]

I haven't tried Granblue Fantasy Versus but it is reputedly both relatively easy to pickup and less hectic than other ArcSys games.

[Zevox]

Honestly, I think the art of working your opponents into mistakes that everyone recognizes they made is describing every successful high end fighting game once you get good enough. The whole point of footsies is to get the opponent to react in a way you can more readily punish. It just takes a long long time to get to the point that a new player can do that.

But if you want that but slower (and probably easier to learn to get to that level), uhh, Samurai Shodown maybe. For Honor kinda counts though it's much better balanced in it's 4v4 modes than the 1v1 modes. Last Blade 2. Bushido Blade.

This is basically what I was going to say. When you get down to it that kind of gameplay is the core of the genre and is very present in every fighting game. Hell, a good understanding of that part will get you further than strong execution in many cases - it doesn't matter how fancy and optimized your combos are if you never win the neutral or land a mix-up to get to them.

For slower-paced or less execution-heavy fighting games in general these days, Samurai Shodown is a standout, kinda. It's very focused on individual big hits, and indeed most characters barely have even basic combos, but it has its own problems. IIRC (it's been a year since I played it as I didn't wind up liking it very much) it has stiffer controls than most modern fighting games, making simple things like doing special moves or special/super cancels harder than they need to be. More importantly, its netcode is atrocious, some of the worst in the modern genre in my experience - and that in combination with it being niche even by fighting game standards meaning it has a smaller online player base than other fighting games means that I really can't recommend it if you're looking to play online.

Other go-tos for slower-paced fighting games these days would be Street Fighter 5, Mortal Kombat 11, and Granblue Fantasy Versus. Each definitely has their execution barriers though. Motal Kombat has the best online of the three by a long shot, while I personally think Granblue is the most beginner-friendly, but it also suffers in the online department thanks to a baffling design choice/omission (you can't see anyone's connection rating while in lobbies) and its more niche status meaning a smaller player base to fight.

I have heard of Fantasy Strike before, but never played it, so I can't comment on that one. Another that I've seen videos of (but again not played myself) that's designed to be an extremely simple fighting game is Divekick - a game where your options are basically just jump and divekick, and any hit will KO the opponent. The idea being that it's entirely about spacing and mindgames.

You see my criticism of the initial statement is declaring a subset smart implies the others are not smart games. When the desired tactical gameplay described is within those not smart games.

Or the criticism of reaction time determining success when it’s much more about muscle memory and prediction. I know for a while in Smash Bros, Hungrybox, one of the best players of Melee considered the fastest paced game in the franchise has reaction times were average. But he won because he knew precisely how people would act and react and planned for it. Also exploited some game mechanics but that’s kind of how fighting games work.

That said, I 100% agree that the barrier to entry to get to that level of play is ridiculously high and often requires the chosen game to be essentially the one game someone plays for awhile to reach that pinnacle which is not a process many people are willing to do. I know for me I’ve only put that much energy into SSBU and StarCraft.

The thing is, getting to that level of play isn't something that most people will ever do anyway. It'll always be only the very few top players competing with Evo champ-tier players like Hungrybox by definition. But you can definitely get to a level of play where the genre is plenty satisfying to play against the general online userbase, most of whom are also nowhere near that level. Hell, my own reaction times are pretty suspect by many standards - anti-airing is something I've always struggled with doing on reaction, and my success rate at teching throws even when I can guess that they're coming is abysmal - but I can still manage to climb the ranks online of games that I love enough to keep playing, like Dragon Ball, BlazBlue, or Smash. And there's little more satisfying than actually learning and implementing something new into your gameplay successfully, even if it seems basic to another chunk of the player base.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Fantasy Strike is designed to be maximally easy to execute so you can skip directly to the end layer of fighting game strategy, which is not about reacting but predicting what your opponent is going to do.

Yeah, FS is one that I was going to suggest. There's still a heavy amount of knowledge that you need to get really good at the game, but you can start thinking through things from very early on. As you learn more, you understand the nuance behind situations and you understand the motivations and payoffs for different moves. In addition, because it's simple to execute special moves and pretty easy to learn how to combo, it means that most opponents will be able to effectively punish your mistakes, which helps you learn very quickly not to make those mistakes.

I would also say Killer Instinct might fit the bill; the combo system is specifically designed to involve deliberate choice, where you make decisions on the fly and have to outfox your opponent, even in the middle of a combo. And they took out half-circle inputs, so you can focus more on making decisions and playing the game.

[Psyren]

Divekick is a cheap indie fighting game on Steam that boils the fighting game model down to its essence - basically your goal is to jump and kick your enemy in the head once. Different characters have different jumping and kicking physics, as well as a unique special for each character. These deceptively simple mechanics allow you to skip right to the strategic prediction and baiting of your opponent as the key to victory.

[Hollysword]

BattleCON is a tabletop fighting game where your attacks are formed by two cards, a base which everyone shares the same set, and a style which are unique to each character. You can plan out your move with no rush, and most of the game is trying to read what the opponent will do and play an attack that beats it. A lot of reviewers say BattleCON does Fighting Game better than actual fighting games.