Hel and the other Pantheons / Deity Disputes

[dancrilis]

So we know that Hel gets the souls of the Dwarven dead and the the other races souls get parcelled out to the other 17 deities of the Northern Pantheon (per here panel 12).

So what about Dwarves who worship Nergal or Dragon or whatever - does Hel get claim on them and how are disputes between the claiming deities get resolved if meeting to resolve such might result in a new snarl (panel 10).

We also know that the worshipers of the Southern Gods get processed after death in different locations then worshippers of the Northern Gods (panel 5) so where they go first might be meaningful.

So I guess the question is on creation of the current world was a part of it that dishonoured Dwarves were Hel bound regardless of who they worshipped (possibly implied panel 11) and if so how is that dispute resolved in the cases where members of other pantheons wish to challenge whether someone is dishonoured, or - have the Northern Gods been holding back a loophole to escape Hel possibly because exploiting it would likely deprive the pantheon of Dwarven souls as a unit.

[Peelee]

So we know that Hel gets the souls of the Dwarven dead and the the other races souls get parcelled out to the other 17 deities of the Northern Pantheon (per here panel 12).

So what about Dwarves who worship Nergal or Dragon or whatever - does Hel get claim on them and how are disputes between the claiming deities get resolved if meeting to resolve such might result in a new snarl (panel 10).

We also know that the worshipers of the Southern Gods get processed after death in different locations then worshippers of the Northern Gods (panel 5) so where they go first might be meaningful.

So I guess the question is on creation of the current world was a part of it that dishonoured Dwarves were Hel bound regardless of who they worshipped (possibly implied panel 11) and if so how is that dispute resolved in the cases where members of other pantheons wish to challenge whether someone is dishonoured, or - have the Northern Gods been holding back a loophole to escape Hel possibly because exploiting it would likely deprive the pantheon of Dwarven souls as a unit.

10: Is the character a dwarf? If yes, goto 20. If no, goto 40
20: Did the character die honorably? If yesno, goto 30. If noyes, goto 40.
30: Goto Hel
40: Goto applicable afterlife

If a dwarf worships an Eastern god... well, sucks for the dwarf.

[dancrilis]

10: Is the character a dwarf? If yes, goto 20. If no, goto 40
20: Did the character die honorably? If yes, goto 30. If no, goto 40.
30: Goto Hel
40: Goto applicable afterlife

If a dwarf worships an Eastern god... well, sucks for the dwarf.

I am unsure about that - both in general and also because you seem 20 generating an odd result.

[Peelee]

I am unsure about that - both in general and also because you seem 20 generating an odd result.

Imean, we saw the terms of the bet. There was no "or worship another god" tossed in there. There was one, and only one, exception. So there is no reason to think there are more exceptions.

And it's been a while since BASIC, but what's wrong with the code there?

[dancrilis]

Imean, we saw the terms of the bet. There was no "or worship another god" tossed in there. There was one, and only one, exception. So there is no reason to think there are more exceptions.

Which if that is how it works good and well but it does raise the question of how disputes are handled - Thor can walk in on official business, but if Rat does it there could be trouble - so are Elves exclusively Western? as a counter balance - 'you made those you get those we made these we get these' kindof deal, and the South could have its own similiar group.
Just curious as to what the deity deals might be - also Hel when laying out the terms did seem to be fairly clear she was talking about Northern matters.

And it's been a while since BASIC, but what's wrong with the code there?

Did the character die honorably? If yes,
Goto Hel.

You seem to be saying that honourable dwarves go to Hel and others don't.

[Peelee]

Which if that is how it works good and well but it does raise the question of how disputes are handled - Thor can walk in on official business, but if Rat does it there could be trouble - so are Elves exclusively Western? as a counter balance - 'you made those you get those we made these we get these' kindof deal, and the South could have its own similiar group.
Just curious as to what the deity deals might be - also Hel when laying out the terms did seem to be fairly clear she was talking about Northern matters.

Thor being Good and all, he may intercede on the other gods' behalf. Or the other gods could get a message to Thor. And that's even considering that disputes are all that common to begin with - the one time we see Thor doing it, he's taking on cases that should be obvious losers, and only doing it to distract Hel. I'd say there's good odds of a legitimate dispute with Hel over a god from a different pantheon to be so rare that it likely wouldn't happen.

You seem to be saying that honourable dwarves go to Hel and others don't.

.....oops

[Jasdoif]

So we know that Hel gets the souls of the Dwarven dead and the the other races souls get parcelled out to the other 17 deities of the Northern Pantheon (per here panel 12).

So what about Dwarves who worship Nergal or Dragon or whatever - does Hel get claim on them and how are disputes between the claiming deities get resolved if meeting to resolve such might result in a new snarl (panel 10).

We also know that the worshipers of the Southern Gods get processed after death in different locations then worshippers of the Northern Gods (panel 5) so where they go first might be meaningful.

So I guess the question is on creation of the current world was a part of it that dishonoured Dwarves were Hel bound regardless of who they worshipped (possibly implied panel 11) and if so how is that dispute resolved in the cases where members of other pantheons wish to challenge whether someone is dishonoured, or - have the Northern Gods been holding back a loophole to escape Hel possibly because exploiting it would likely deprive the pantheon of Dwarven souls as a unit.

Frankly, I think the setting deliberately parodies/satirizes the "non-human racial deity" concept D&D seems to love; and intentionally glosses over the question here.

Overlooking that...Looking at a form of the challenge procedure here, I imagine deities outside the Northern Pantheon would send an emissary to whichever authorized Northern God they felt could--and would--intercede on their follower's behalf. If they can reverse a decision a century in the past, there's likely not much urgency.

[hroþila]

Honestly if a dwarf is worshipping the Eastern gods that dwarf is a pretentious a-hole who deserves whatever they get.

[Aidan]

Frankly, I think the setting deliberately parodies/satirizes the "non-human racial deity" concept D&D seems to love; and intentionally glosses over the question here.

Overlooking that...Looking at a form of the challenge procedure here, I imagine deities outside the Northern Pantheon would send an emissary to whichever authorized Northern God they felt could--and would--intercede on their follower's behalf. If they can reverse a decision a century in the past, there's likely not much urgency.

Honestly that seems like the most likely answer.

I also don't recall to many Dwarves living outside of the Northern lands, I quickly reviewed some areas that we see outside of the Northern Continent, and the only dwarf I could really find was Durkon (anyone who wants to put in the time to correct me, feel free). Also, as we saw with Roy's death, even if you don't actively worship a pantheon, you will still go to the area determined by your alignment (Roy was on the Northern side of Mt. Celestia), therefore I would assume most dwarves that just live their lives not caring about the Gods end up in the Northern afterlives, including Hel's. The only dwarves where contention exists are those that actively worship a differing pantheon and die dishonorably. Since the High Priests of the other pantheons seem to have no dwarves among them I think it is a safe bet that this is no common occurrences with maybe one or two dwarves ending up in this case every century. Also I think if this was a way to avoid Hel's curse, we would see more dwarves not living in the Northern lands worshiping Northern Gods.

[dancrilis]

Honestly that seems like the most likely answer.

I also don't recall to many Dwarves living outside of the Northern lands, I quickly reviewed some areas that we see outside of the Northern Continent, and the only dwarf I could really find was Durkon (anyone who wants to put in the time to correct me, feel free).

Panel 1 (subject to where that hotel was (edit: and on review I think it might be in the north)).

Also, as we saw with Roy's death, even if you don't actively worship a pantheon, you will still go to the area determined by your alignment (Roy was on the Northern side of Mt. Celestia), therefore I would assume most dwarves that just live their lives not caring about the Gods end up in the Northern afterlives, including Hel's. The only dwarves where contention exists are those that actively worship a differing pantheon and die dishonorably. Since the High Priests of the other pantheons seem to have no dwarves among them I think it is a safe bet that this is no common occurrences with maybe one or two dwarves ending up in this case every century. Also I think if this was a way to avoid Hel's curse, we would see more dwarves not living in the Northern lands worshiping Northern Gods.

Well the world is young and the Dwarves live a long time - they might not have traveled much or been prone to going against tradition.

Also the Northern Gods have no reason to tell them that they would be better worshipping some other set of Gods - and a vested interest in not telling them.

[The Pilgrim]

10: Is the character not a dwarf? goto 40
20: Did the character die honorably? goto 40.
30: Goto Hel
40: Goto applicable afterlife

If a dwarf worships an Eastern god... well, sucks for the dwarf.

Code optimized for you.

[Peelee]

Code optimized for you.

I admire doing it for how the world should work, but I did it for how the world does work.

[Darth Paul]

As far as dwarves (dwarfs? I've never been that sure of the plural as used in D&D) worshipping other pantheons, we've seen very few dwarves outside the Northern lands in any case where they would have been exposed to such ideas.

Durkon's backstory in OOPCs showed him being rather shocked, if I recall, at the notion of going abroad to human lands, and the implication I took was that dwarves venturing out among the other races was fairly unheard of. It was also a major step for Hilgya to set out away from the dwarven lands. The only other dwarf I remember was the assassin at the inn. (Someone will not hesitate to assist my memory here, please, but there haven't been many, and Durkon was surely the only one we've seen on the Southern continent?)

My point, if I have one, is that for the hypothetical case to come about, first some dwarves would have to actually learn about some other deities, other than as rivals of their own. They would almost have to venture somewhere where there are actual clerics of these gods recruiting worshipers, etc., in order to have a motive to follow those gods.

[The Pilgrim]

I admire doing it for how the world should work, but I did it for how the world does work.

Given that the world has Oracle, it must run on Java, not BASIC.

[Emanick]

Honestly that seems like the most likely answer.

I also don't recall to many Dwarves living outside of the Northern lands, I quickly reviewed some areas that we see outside of the Northern Continent, and the only dwarf I could really find was Durkon (anyone who wants to put in the time to correct me, feel free).

We see a duergar merchant visiting Azure City in strip #531, which raises the question of whether duergar count as dwarves for the purposes of the Bet.

[dancrilis]

Another potential wrinkle in the pot 'of who gets what soul when' is dedications - if the dishonoured dwarven dead provide Hel with empty dedications that presumedly means that when they soul is argued to not be dishonoured does not transfer the burst to the claiment.
But we know that not all Dwarves go to Hel initially, so presumedly some Deva (or other) judges the honour of their deaths and assigned them as needed, and the gods only intercede relating to Hel in the event that they feel the Deva made a mistake - but this would likely mean that the other pantheons would need to have some benefit for giving up the dedication as well as the souls.

[The Aboleth]

This quote is from 2012 and we've learned a lot more about the Dwarven religious structure since then, but it still feels relevant to this discussion (bolded emphasis mine):

Pretty much this. A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.

I wonder if the reverse could be true--that is, could a Dwarf who chooses to worship, say, Rat thus "opt out" of the honor/dishonor system and avoid Hel?

[Jasdoif]

I wonder if the reverse could be true--that is, could a Dwarf who chooses to worship, say, Rat thus "opt out" of the honor/dishonor system and avoid Hel?

Let's look at the wording again:

Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things.

The system of honor/dishonor applies to:

• the dwarves
• those humans that choose to believe in such things

It certainly looked like an awkward sentence at the time, but now it's clearly deliberately constructed to state that the dwarves don't get an opt out, which wouldn't come up in the comic until five years later.

[Darth Paul]

Let's look at the wording again:
The system of honor/dishonor applies to:

• the dwarves
• those humans that choose to believe in such things

It certainly looked like an awkward sentence at the time, but now it's clearly deliberately constructed to state that the dwarves don't get an opt out, which wouldn't come up in the comic until five years later.

So Hilgya is clearly mistaken in thinking she gets an opt-out by worshiping Loki, since

• the dwarves
• those humans that choose to believe in such things

is pretty darn all-inclusive.

By this reading, Hilgya's in the honor system whether she thinks she is or not.

[Doctor West]

Yes, but Hilgya never claimed to be outside the honor system. She claimed that as a cleric of Loki, a god of thieves, behaving selfishly and dishonorably was, in fact, paying respect to her god and therefor paradoxically honorable behavior.

[Darth Paul]

Yes, but Hilgya never claimed to be outside the honor system. She claimed that as a cleric of Loki, a god of thieves, behaving selfishly and dishonorably was, in fact, paying respect to her god and therefor paradoxically honorable behavior.

Oh strewth.

Well I don't buy it.

[RatElemental]

Thor being Good and all, he may intercede on the other gods' behalf. Or the other gods could get a message to Thor. And that's even considering that disputes are all that common to begin with - the one time we see Thor doing it, he's taking on cases that should be obvious losers, and only doing it to distract Hel. I'd say there's good odds of a legitimate dispute with Hel over a god from a different pantheon to be so rare that it likely wouldn't happen.

There was that one gray area.

I'm of the mind that Thor intercedes on the behalf of other gods, though. But with how insular dwarves are, dwarves who do not live in dwarven lands are probably themselves quite rare. And given the primary occupation of such dwarves, their chances of dying of something other than getting killed in battle are likely even more rare.

[The Pilgrim]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html

From those strips we can infer that:
- Thor can intercede on behalf of any dwarven soul, no matter which God the dwarf followed.
- At least Loki can also intercede. Maybe he is the only other God that can because he was the broker of the bet, or maybe any deity can.

[mjasghar]

Is there any evidence that humans can get pushed into Hel by the dwarves system? Or is it a matter of if they believe it so they end up there?

[Peelee]

Is there any evidence that humans can get pushed into Hel by the dwarves system? Or is it a matter of if they believe it so they end up there?

Humans believing in the honor system was called out by the Giant as a way for humans, IIRC. Or you could have a human Reincarnated into a dwarf, that works too.

[mjasghar]

But not as a default - more of a case of people with a guilty conscience? The dwarves social system doesn’t seem to hold elsewhere - greysky being a case in point. And yet it’s under the northern pantheon.

[Peelee]

But not as a default - more of a case of people with a guilty conscience? The dwarves social system doesn’t seem to hold elsewhere - greysky being a case in point. And yet it’s under the northern pantheon.

Yes, because the dwarves developed their system as a direct response to being informed that all dwarves would go to Hel unless they died honorably, which is not the case for any other race.

[Anymage]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html

From those strips we can infer that:
- Thor can intercede on behalf of any dwarven soul, no matter which God the dwarf followed.
- At least Loki can also intercede. Maybe he is the only other God that can because he was the broker of the bet, or maybe any deity can.

Any northerner can intercede, in the sense that they can stop by and argue with Hel. We don't really see any case where a disagreement gets escalated, the closest we see to any cases getting resolved is Hel dropping cases that by every right should be hers in order to get Thor out of her hair. No idea what would happen if Thor had tried a similar gambit when Hel had the time and mental bandwidth to call Thor out for being full of it.

Another god could in theory stop by and argue with Hel, but in practice that sort of disagreement is where snarls come from and the pantheons would likely have systems in place to limit interpantheon contact when there's any risk of disagreement. Most likely they'd send a messenger to Odin or someone else they can trust among the northern pantheon and try to work things out at enough remove that no two gods who disagree are ever in a room together.

Ultimately, though, it depends on to what degree The Bet is a legal/political arrangement or written into the nature of the world. If the former, it would be like not paying my employees; nothing physically forces me to keep paying, but the physical/social/legal consequences would be swiftly enforced by others and would be strong enough to make me not casually break my commitment. In this case Hel likely wouldn't bother if one stray dwarf happened to be raised by westerners, but would have a very good case to escalate to whatever interpantheon system is in place for resolving disputes if a sizable chunk of dwarves thought they found a way around her. If the latter, worshiping a non-northerner would be about as helpful as worshiping a non-northener hoping it would exempt the dwarf from needing to sleep.