Do you think there are any "dead levels" in 5E?

[thoroughlyS]

The term "dead level" was actually introduced directly on Wizards of the Coast's website, where they used to have articles that introduced gameplay elements. The original concept was a level where all that changed were your numerical values (e.g. getting an additional +1 to a save, a few skill points, etc.). Since then, there has been a significant effort to make every level feel worthwhile to a character. In this thread, I want to ask about times where that... didn't happen.

My first ever character was a Rogue/Ranger multiclass, and I have to say that 1st level of ranger really felt lackluster, because both of the features you gain were situational. In that campaign, I chose beasts and grasslands, and even though we traveled a fair amount, beasts never really seemed too interesting to deal with, and grasslands didn't seem to be common. Whereas, on the rogue side of things, I always felt like I had something to look forward to.

Since then, I've done a lot of consideration about the different class feature progressions, and I've noticed some levels that look pretty uninteresting. Barbarian 13, 15, and 17 all look pretty barren, considering you just get minor improvements on features that came before.

Does anyone else share my experience? Were there any times where you really weren't looking forward to a level? Or felt really disappointed after getting to it?

[MaxWilson]

Fighter 9, 10, and 13 (except for EKs) come to mind, as well as

Barbarian 6-19,

Ranger 6, 10, 18, and 20,

Monk 10 and 15.

[Luccan]

By the reasoning of the old WotC posts, I don't believe 5e has dead levels. But then, those were written in 3.5 and monk didn't get anything in the dead level articles because players had "something to look forward to every level". So clearly they though having literally anything other than just the same plus to numbers everyone got didn't qualify as a dead level, even if what you got sucked. So...

Similarly to level 1 Ranger, level 1 Monk dares to ask "what if you just matched up with a Dex fighter and didn't do much to distinguish yourself?". Even when their stuff applies (which admittedly is more often for a monk) it doesn't really feel like it has much impact in how you play your character. Paladins are almost similar, except Lay on Hands and Divine Sense are real stand out abilities at level 1. Divine Sense is a bit narrow, but it can invalidate invisibility and darkness when it comes up.

Without feats ASI levels are pretty boring. A fair number of classes (I think everyone that isn't a full caster) get literally nothing else at those levels, essentially turning them into +Number levels.

Edit: I should say, I don't think dead levels invalidates investing a full 20 into a single class. 5e is not a hardcore edition, so there's little to lose even with everybody's favorite punching bags.

[OldTrees1]

Yes there are plenty of dead levels. However 1) 5E is an improvement and 2) There is some subjectivity in what a dead level is. What is dead to me might not be to you. However if you consider the Tier the level is in, many high levels are half dead if they were not already dead.

Taking Arcane Trickster as an example (since it does fairly well IMHO):
1st: +2 skills, Expertise, & Sneak Attack. More than 1 level's worth of features.
2nd: Cunning Action.
3rd: Mage Hand Legerdemain, 2 Cantrips, & 2nd Sneak Attack. More than 1 level's worth of features.
4th: 1st ASI.
5th: 3rd Sneak Attack (now only a 25% boost), Uncanny Dodge (a default reaction), buffs Expertise.
6th: Expertise
7th: 2nd level spells (Invisibility), & Evasion
8th: 2nd ASI (worse than the 1st)
9th: Dead Level. Magical Ambush is not interesting to me.
10th: Half Dead. 3rd ASI. The 3rd choice is not a Tier 2 capstone
11th: Reliable Talent is worth a level, even at Tier 3.
12th: Dead Level. The 4th ASI is not a Tier 2 ability and this is Tier 3.
13th: Half Dead Level. Versatile Trickster is not needed and can be worse than dual wielding (a Tier 1 ability). 3rd level spells has merit but does not carry the level on its own.
14th: Half Dead Level. Blindsense is limited but shows the author tried.
15th: Half Dead Level. Remember Resilient Constitution? Now you get Resilient Wisdom to keep up with the higher DCs.
16th: Dead Level. The 5th ASI is not a Tier 2 ability and this is the Tier 3 capstone.
17th: Dead Level. Spell Thief is a very limited 1/day counterspell.
18th: Dead Level. Elusive does not matter when attack outpaced AC anyways.
19th: Half Dead Level. 4th level spells are not enough for a Tier 4 level and the 6th ASI might not even be a Tier 1 ability.
20th: Depends. Stroke of Luck can be 1 DC30+ per short rest. Is the outcome of a DC 30 going to be a Tier 1 or a Tier 4 ability? That depends on your DM.

Considering the dead levels at 9th & 10th and double levels at 1st & 3rd, Trickster has a solid 11 levels before it dies.

[CheddarChampion]

For me, playing some full casters from levels 1-4 feels like dead levels throughout. I'm always comparing how effective they seem to be to how effective level 3+ spells seem like they will be. Like, even though I don't have any level 3 spells yet, they are so potent I don't appreciate the level 1 and 2 spells.

This is mostly regarding the Sorcerer and the Wizard. A lot of their levels get almost... retroactively not-dead, if that makes any sense. Like an evoker can sculpt spells but how much does that matter when you're casting burning hands? On fireball, however!
Or the shield spell. At low levels you're giving up a valuable resource to maybe not get hit for one round. At high levels, that's a pretty good use for it.

[ATHATH]

Yes there are plenty of dead levels. However 1) 5E is an improvement and 2) There is some subjectivity in what a dead level is. What is dead to me might not be to you. However if you consider the Tier the level is in, many high levels are half dead if they were not already dead.

Taking Arcane Trickster as an example (since it does fairly well IMHO):
1st: +2 skills, Expertise, & Sneak Attack. More than 1 level's worth of features.
2nd: Cunning Action.
3rd: Mage Hand Legerdemain, 2 Cantrips, & 2nd Sneak Attack. More than 1 level's worth of features.
4th: 1st ASI.
5th: 3rd Sneak Attack (now only a 25% boost), Uncanny Dodge (a default reaction), buffs Expertise.
6th: Expertise
7th: 2nd level spells (Invisibility), & Evasion
8th: 2nd ASI (worse than the 1st)
9th: Dead Level. Magical Ambush is not interesting to me.
10th: Half Dead. 3rd ASI. The 3rd choice is not a Tier 2 capstone
11th: Reliable Talent is worth a level, even at Tier 3.
12th: Dead Level. The 4th ASI is not a Tier 2 ability and this is Tier 3.
13th: Half Dead Level. Versatile Trickster is not needed and can be worse than dual wielding (a Tier 1 ability). 3rd level spells has merit but does not carry the level on its own.
14th: Half Dead Level. Blindsense is limited but shows the author tried.
15th: Half Dead Level. Remember Resilient Constitution? Now you get Resilient Wisdom to keep up with the higher DCs.
16th: Dead Level. The 5th ASI is not a Tier 2 ability and this is the Tier 3 capstone.
17th: Dead Level. Spell Thief is a very limited 1/day counterspell.
18th: Dead Level. Elusive does not matter when attack outpaced AC anyways.
19th: Half Dead Level. 4th level spells are not enough for a Tier 4 level and the 6th ASI might not even be a Tier 1 ability.
20th: Depends. Stroke of Luck can be 1 DC30+ per short rest. Is the outcome of a DC 30 going to be a Tier 1 or a Tier 4 ability? That depends on your DM.

Considering the dead levels at 9th & 10th and double levels at 1st & 3rd, Trickster has a solid 11 levels before it dies.

Eh, I think you're underrating Magical Ambush. Cunning Action Hide -> Magical Ambush Phantasmal Force seems like a pretty good combo to me, even if your save DCs might not be too stellar.

[OldTrees1]

Eh, I think you're underrating Magical Ambush. Cunning Action Hide -> Magical Ambush Phantasmal Force seems like a pretty good combo to me, even if your save DCs might not be too stellar.

I hear you, and I still am not interested in it. So I am not underrating it.
You list 2nd level, 7th level, and 9th level contributions there. The 9th level contribution just increased the chance to stick the effect. That increased chance is not worth anywhere near a level's worth of features to me, especially considering I would rather cast Invisibility out of combat than Phantasmal Force.

However that does bring it back to my point that dead levels are a bit subjective. For example, I expect you rate Legerdemain as less significant than I do.

[Greywander]

For me, playing some full casters from levels 1-4 feels like dead levels throughout. I'm always comparing how effective they seem to be to how effective level 3+ spells seem like they will be. Like, even though I don't have any level 3 spells yet, they are so potent I don't appreciate the level 1 and 2 spells.

This is mostly regarding the Sorcerer and the Wizard. A lot of their levels get almost... retroactively not-dead, if that makes any sense. Like an evoker can sculpt spells but how much does that matter when you're casting burning hands? On fireball, however!
Or the shield spell. At low levels you're giving up a valuable resource to maybe not get hit for one round. At high levels, that's a pretty good use for it.

I'll give you that 3rd level and up spells can be quite powerful, but you get to cast a lot more 1st and 2nd level spells. Tier 1 spells (1st and 2nd level), along with cantrips, are a good example of "weak" abilities that a creative person can get a lot of mileage out of. Sure, you might be able to throw a big fireball at 5th level, you can even do it twice! But after that? You're done.

I know there's a quote somewhere along the lines of "a good mage is defined by their high level spells, but a master is defined by their cantrips", and I think the same can be said of low level spells. There's nothing like foiling a powerful creature with a low level spell like Fog Cloud or Web. It's not always the size of the spell slot that counts, but how you use it.

I'd actually be really interested in a class that got to cast all their 1st and 2nd level spells at-will. 3rd and up are probably too strong for at-will casting (unless you carefully tailor the spell list). Which reminds me, I actually have two unfinished homebrew classes that aim to do just this, coming at it from different angles.

As for dead levels, I think the only dead levels, strictly speaking, are when you multiclass and both classes get Extra Attack. Since it doesn't stack, 5th level ends up being a dead level for one class. My quick-and-dirty fix is to give +1 to one ability score instead of a redundant Extra Attack. It's true that sometimes a class gets something lackluster, or something that is just a ribbon, or something that would have been nice 10 levels ago but is now just "meh" (looking at you, Destroy Undead), but you do still technically get something. And I'd say that the "meh" levels are meant to balance out the "awesome" levels from the same class. Destroy Undead is tolerable because the cleric chassis is otherwise great, maybe even one of the strongest (full casting and medium armor and shields and domain perks?).

In a way, though, I might qualify an ASI as a dead level. Your numbers go up, but you don't get anything else. I almost think it would be better if you were forced to pick a feat, possibly with an extra +1 to one ability score. I feel like this would work better with more half-feats, though, so you can still get ability scores up fast if you want to, or raise secondary or tertiary ability scores while using the +1 on your primary.

[TheCleverGuy]

Ranger 6 is boring as hell. That's where I multiclassed into Rogue and never looked back.

[diplomancer]

Cleric 14 is a dead level. Yay, now, at level 14, you can kill off CR3 undead instead of CR2. Really?

When it was published, that meant mummies and wights. Now it's slightly more useful, but still very likely you won't see use for it unless your DM loves hordes of undead.

[Xenken]

Wait, wouldn’t every ASI be a dead level, by the given definition, in a game without feats? Since all they do is boost numbers?

[Kane0]

There are plenty of class levels that have something written in the table but are functionally dead, primary example being numerical improvements to previously obtained features.

[MrStabby]

There are plenty of class levels that have something written in the table but are functionally dead, primary example being numerical improvements to previously obtained features.

I found this a bit with bard, bardic inspiration die increase, asi, song of rest increase, inspiration die recovery frequency... a lot of stuff that isnt new. On the other hand it did have a big impact on play style. Bardic inspiration transitioned from being a last desperate attempt to tip a key roll into success to a frequently used tool to lubricate the party's way through encounters - used rather than reserved and with an expectation, rather than a hope, for success. Even discounting new spell levels the quantitative increase in spell slots as the character levels up leads to a qualitative difference in how they are used. More slots means more casting of lower level spells as non-concentration options, a shift in which spells are used. To be fair, song of rest leveling up didnt really have the same impact.

On the other hand, the barbarian numerical upgrades to rage seem less transformative, both in terms of frequency and static damage.

[diplomancer]

I found this a bit with bard, bardic inspiration die increase, asi, song of rest increase, inspiration die recovery frequency... a lot of stuff that isnt new. On the other hand it did have a big impact on play style. Bardic inspiration transitioned from being a last desperate attempt to tip a key roll into success to a frequently used tool to lubricate the party's way through encounters - used rather than reserved and with an expectation, rather than a hope, for success. Even discounting new spell levels the quantitative increase in spell slots as the character levels up leads to a qualitative difference in how they are used. More slots means more casting of lower level spells as non-concentration options, a shift in which spells are used. To be fair, song of rest leveling up didnt really have the same impact.

On the other hand, the barbarian numerical upgrades to rage seem less transformative, both in terms of frequency and static damage.

Bards don't have dead levels, except 20th. Those levels you mention are all odd levels *, they are getting new spell levels. Most full casters don't get anything at those levels apart from spells, Bards get spells AND those small numerical bonuses

*(there is a Bardic Inspiration improvement at level 10, but that's one of the best levels for Bards because of magical secrets)

[MrStabby]

Bards don't have dead levels, except 20th. Those levels you mention are all odd levels *, they are getting new spell levels. Most full casters don't get anything at those levels apart from spells, Bards get spells AND those small numerical bonuses

*(there is a Bardic Inspiration improvement at level 10, but that's one of the best levels for Bards because of magical secrets)

I was not saying they are deal levels. Indeed quite the opposite. That even numerical increases in existing abilities can make a qualitative difference in play. I was explicitly excluding new spell levels for this very reason.

The point, which I obviously didnt make well, was to contrast this with barbarian, where I find that a similar increase in both number and magnitude of rages doesnt generally feel as transformative. In determining what feels like a dead level I think these factors are important.

[Toadkiller]

Necromancers have a lot of dead levels.

[Pex]

Multiclassing warrior level 5/warrior level 5 - You get absolutely nothing for the second Extra Attack.

Sorcerer level 2 - You get sorcery points with nothing to do with them. Technically you can get one more 1st level spell slot. Yay?

Paladin level 1 - No spells, no smiting, no fighting style. Boring.

Warlock level 1 - One spell slot, no invocations. Boring.

[mythmonster2]

Playing as a Land Druid, 6th level felt like the least impactful level I've ever taken. I don't think I've ever encountered nonmagical difficult terrain, and I've had entangle cast on me once in 5e. So the entire level pretty much boiled down to one extra 3rd level spell slot.

[Nagog]

Considering the dead levels at 9th & 10th and double levels at 1st & 3rd, Trickster has a solid 11 levels before it dies.

That's going to be true of 90% of all Rogues. Once Reliable Talent is attained, the only things Rogues have to look forward to is higher Sneak Attack damage, and even that isn't enough to compete with the higher levels of other classes (who, granted, have less stellar early levels)

For me, playing some full casters from levels 1-4 feels like dead levels throughout. I'm always comparing how effective they seem to be to how effective level 3+ spells seem like they will be. Like, even though I don't have any level 3 spells yet, they are so potent I don't appreciate the level 1 and 2 spells.

This is mostly regarding the Sorcerer and the Wizard. A lot of their levels get almost... retroactively not-dead, if that makes any sense. Like an evoker can sculpt spells but how much does that matter when you're casting burning hands? On fireball, however!
Or the shield spell. At low levels you're giving up a valuable resource to maybe not get hit for one round. At high levels, that's a pretty good use for it.

I agree that early Wizards and Sorcerers get shafted a bit until level 5, as their entire class is spellcasting and until you have the slots to support it you're not gonna be having a good time, but Clerics have some really stellar spells right off the bat (Guiding Bolt, Spiritual Weapon, etc.), Bards have class features and skills, and Warlocks start to get really interesting at level 2 with Invocations (level 1 Warlock tends to suck though, discluding Hexblade because it's broken and everyone knows it). This point is exactly why I hold off on deciding what class to play until I know what level we're starting at. With some DMs waiting months to progress the party to level 2 (with Milestone leveling or RP heavy campaigns), I'd rather not be as useful as a sack of potatoes for more than one session.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm really surprised at the lack of love for 1st and 2nd level spells here. My Sorcerer has been killing it in CoS; webbed some skeletons on skeleton warhorses last session and burning hands (empowered) a handful of shadows in an earlier session. In both cases we just had to mop up the remnants after that.

[Nagog]

I'm really surprised at the lack of love for 1st and 2nd level spells here. My Sorcerer has been killing it in CoS; webbed some skeletons on skeleton warhorses last session and burning hands (empowered) a handful of shadows in an earlier session. In both cases we just had to mop up the remnants after that.

To be sure there are some good 1st level spells for those levels; I have used Sleep to great effect on more than one occasion. The issue comes down to reliability. If I only have 2 or 3 spell slots, to cover all of the pillars of play (for sorc/wiz it's typically combat and utility) it means you'll be Nova-ing your spells until you are a high enough level that you can lose a few slots without it making an impact on your resources.

[Hael]

Moon druids have a ton of dead lvls, it’s ridiculous. Perfect example of a not very well designed power curve.

[MaxWilson]

Moon druids have a ton of dead lvls, it’s ridiculous. Perfect example of a not very well designed power curve.

You must be joking.

1: spellcasting (Goodberry, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Produce Flame, etc.)
2: combat wildshape (Giant Hyena, Brown Bear)
3: Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth
4: Giant Octopus/Toad for restraining, plus a feat (Warcaster, Resilient (Con), Sentinel, Mobile, are all excellent, and Skulker for goblin druids).
5: Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Erupting Earth
6: Giant Constrictor Snake for even more control
7: Polymorph, Conjure Woodland Creatures (Quicklings), Confusion, Guardian of Nature
8: another feat, flying wildshape
9: Wrath of Nature, Conjure Animals V (twice as many!)
10: Elemental Wildshape

etc.

[Hael]

You must be joking..

Lvl 3 for a moon Druid is surely what one would call a dead lvl.

You get lvl 2 spells that you will barely use at this stage bc it’s so absurdly dominant to be in wild shape. The marginal utility is small here relative to what you are already doing.

More generally for those lvl ranges, the scaling is weak as cr2 creatures aren’t much different than cr1 creatures and early on spells aren’t super relevant until lvl5+ when your wildshape starts falling off. Then you are somewhat at the mercy of your dm as well for shapes known.

[diplomancer]

Lvl 3 for a moon Druid is surely what one would call a dead lvl.

You get lvl 2 spells that you will barely use at this stage bc it’s so absurdly dominant to be in wild shape. The marginal utility is small here relative to what you are already doing.

More generally for those lvl ranges, the scaling is weak as cr2 creatures aren’t much different than cr1 creatures and early on spells aren’t super relevant until lvl5+ when your wildshape starts falling off. Then you are somewhat at the mercy of your dm as well for shapes known.

No use for pass without trace, probably the best 2nd level spell in the game? For flaming sphere or heat metal, for your bonus action while you concentrate in wild shape? For Spike growth, to drag your enemies through it after you grapple them?

No. All odd levels for fullcasters are definitely NOT dead levels.

[Jader7777]

Depends on the nature of the campaign/adventure you play. I mean, do you always start at level 1 and get to level 20? I never do that nonsense. I usually stick to a band of levels like 5-10 or 7-12. Sometimes I just eschew leveling all together and you're the max level the adventure calls for during the entire campaign.

Leveling up in general can feel extremely tedious as you rearrange numbers and fill out new features, not to mention is sucks up table time. Definitely feels more 'worth it' if you get a radically game changing ability that has your character function entirely differently as opposed to +1 to X, Y, Z.

[Theodoxus]

No use for pass without trace, probably the best 2nd level spell in the game? For flaming sphere or heat metal, for your bonus action while you concentrate in wild shape? For Spike growth, to drag your enemies through it after you grapple them?

No. All odd levels for fullcasters are definitely NOT dead levels.

Not to mention barkskin. People seem to poo-poo it because it's concentration. But having an AC 16 on a bear is no joke. And it's not like you're guaranteed to fail the concentration check if you are hit; and even if you lose the spell, you're still a bear!

Though honestly, my preferred cheese is to cast fog cloud on a group of baddies and go wade in there as a giant spider. Blindsense for the advantage to hit while they had disadvantage to hit me? Yes please! I've wrecked many an adventure starting at 2nd level druid.

[MaxWilson]

Lvl 3 for a moon Druid is surely what one would call a dead lvl.

You get lvl 2 spells that you will barely use at this stage bc it’s so absurdly dominant to be in wild shape. The marginal utility is small here relative to what you are already doing.

More generally for those lvl ranges, the scaling is weak as cr2 creatures aren’t much different than cr1 creatures and early on spells aren’t super relevant until lvl5+ when your wildshape starts falling off. Then you are somewhat at the mercy of your dm as well for shapes known.

No, level 3 is not dead. Level 3 gives you Pass Without Trace and Poor Man's Fireball a.k.a. Spike Growth. You now have tools that let you take on groups of monsters, bypassing or killing them. You've got a pretty good chance now of taking on encounters/adventures designed for level 5 PCs, accelerating your own growth via greater rewards.

It's not the CR increases that matter for Moon Druids, mostly, it's the loosening of restrictions. At level 4 you gain access to shapes with swim speeds, which means Giant Octopus and Giant Toad are now options, which means you now have a restraining attack AND it works on opportunity attacks as well. Your control just increased radically. At level 6 you get Giant Constrictor Snake (see: Xanathar's tables BTW if you don't want to rely on DM mercy) which has control like a Giant Octopus but more HP, better movement, and blindsight in case you want to do combos with Fog Cloud or Darkness from a warlock or Alert Shadow Monk or something. At level 8 you have no-concentration flight via wildshape (and potentially that flying Q. dinosaur, however you spell it, Quetzalcouatlus or whatever, because it's CR 2).

You're right that there's not much difference between CR 1 and CR 2 _numbers_, but you're wrong about Moon Druids gaining nothing from loosening restrictions.

[Skylivedk]

No, level 3 is not dead. Level 3 gives you Pass Without Trace and Poor Man's Fireball a.k.a. Spike Growth. You now have tools that let you take on groups of monsters, bypassing or killing them. You've got a pretty good chance now of taking on encounters/adventures designed for level 5 PCs, accelerating your own growth via greater rewards.

It's not the CR increases that matter for Moon Druids, mostly, it's the loosening of restrictions. At level 4 you gain access to shapes with swim speeds, which means Giant Octopus and Giant Toad are now options, which means you now have a restraining attack AND it works on opportunity attacks as well. Your control just increased radically. At level 6 you get Giant Constrictor Snake (see: Xanathar's tables BTW if you don't want to rely on DM mercy) which has control like a Giant Octopus but more HP, better movement, and blindsight in case you want to do combos with Fog Cloud or Darkness from a warlock or Alert Shadow Monk or something. At level 8 you have no-concentration flight via wildshape (and potentially that flying Q. dinosaur, however you spell it, Quetzalcouatlus or whatever, because it's CR 2).

You're right that there's not much difference between CR 1 and CR 2 _numbers_, but you're wrong about Moon Druids gaining nothing from loosening restrictions.

In a grappler party it's not even that poor. One of my Tiamat killer builds is basically just abusing Hexblade's Curse and Spiked Growth

[Xenken]

A fellow Fog Cloud master, eh? Nice, that's always good to see.

I'm still wondering about the "Are ASI's without Feats secretly dead levels because they just boost flat numbers" thing, but assuming they aren't?

Moon Druid has no dead levels.
It is, in fact, arguably the only class/subclass combo in the game with no dead levels.

I just finished doing a whole audit of it from 1-20 for the guide, and the only level I wasn't immediately excited by was Thousand Forms at 14. (A.K.A the ability to cast Alter Self, a 2nd level spell, at will) and I realize now that I'll probably have to write by review of it because while I'm still pretty certain that it's Moon's worst level, it still provides as much or more active utility as valued features from other classes, like new channel divinities and non-combat oriented Barb totems.