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Thread: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
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2020-06-27, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
My character is level 5, at this point combat is so easy it's getting a bit boring.
Blade Song give me 21 AC with shield that's 26 AC.
I use the spell shadow blade at 3rd level for a weapon that does 3d8 damage.
I use the spell Blink to never get hit
I use the spell False Life to give me 40+ HP (higher than our tank)
I use the spell Booming Blade to deal an extra 1d8 on the hit and to make it take an extra 2d8 on its turn if it wants to move.
Typical Combat:
Round 1: Blink, Blade Song
Round 2: Shadow Blade, run up to hit, Booming Blade, Blink away.
Enemy's Turn: I'm not there so it moves and takes 2d8 damage. (total of 6d8+4 in one turn).
Round 3+: Blink back in, use cantrip booming blade for 4d8+4 damage every round, with a bonus +2d8 here and there when enemies move.
If blink ever fails I use shield, if they still hit I usually have False life to absorb most of the blow.
Combats have been ending recently with the party bloodied and worse for wear while I am usually untouched at max HP with temp HP to spare.
I picked this class originally because I thought the versatility of spells and combat would be the maximum amount of fun. I can easily change my play style on week if I so choose by simply sitting back and slinging fireballs like any normal wizard, but is this class broken?
TLDR: Lvl 5 Bladesinger with 26 AC, 40 speed, 4d8+4 DMG on weapon, 40+ HP, and blink.
Edit: thanks everyone, you've convinced me that the Blade Singer isn't OP or broken. So I can feel free to keep enjoying this class and my false sense of power guilt free :)Last edited by Drache64; 2020-06-28 at 09:31 AM.
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2020-06-27, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Yes, that is a fine way to play a Bladesinger. No, it is not broken.
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2020-06-27, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
I think the general consensus is that the Bladesinger is a bit front-loaded, but at higher levels it falls behind some other subclasses.
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2020-06-27, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
So, on one encounter you’ve used both your 3rd level slots, and possibly a 1st or two (side note: Blink isn’t that great of a spell).
For the other 5-7 encounters, you have probably five 2nd level slots and lets say three first.
I’d imagine it would be better to save that Blink casting so you can get an extra round of attacking in (particularly after you level and get extra attack) and can use that other third for a second combat of SB.
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2020-06-27, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Bladesinger's decent but not broken - some of its abilities like Extra Attack are essentially 'dead' features in favour of using Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade.
A DM can certainly find ways to deal damage to you if they want to. To take your case, you're burning a 2nd and 3rd level spell slot for this, which means at most you can do it twice per long rest. Blink isn't guaranteed to make you disappear and enemies who notice you doing this can prep Readied Actions. You take area damage or spells just the same as everyone else will. You can't use your blink by the third combat, so any potential dungeon crawl will see your efficiency drop instantly.
If you get to go nuclear with your spells then yes, you're pretty powerful because you're a wizard. Bladesong is a nice defensive boon to them, but most of the power is just from your raw spells, not the subclass.
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2020-06-27, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
I mean I would really hope that a combat in which a wizard expended all of their highest level spell slots would be resolved in a way that didn't invovle the rest of the team taking a beating at all.
In terms of party resouces overall would those spell slots not be better spent on casting Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern or Fear or...etc so that the combats ended faster without the rest of your team getting injured as well?
But yes, you are correct - if you fight one combat a day and use all your spell slots on self buffs, you will indeed be quite good. That isn't really anything to do with you being a bladesinger though. One thing to consider is that with Blink for example you are expending a 3rd level spell slot and all you're accomplishing is encouraging your enemies to focus fire more effectively. They're still making the same number of attacks, they're just all focused at the rest of your team instead. You're expending spell slots to make the rest of your team take more damage and are surprised that they seem to be taking more damage?Last edited by Contrast; 2020-06-27 at 06:56 PM.
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2020-06-27, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-06-27, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
No, the class isn't broken. Any wizard can gain a similar AC all the time (not just for a few minutes a day) just by multiclassing Fighter or Cleric, which lets them pick up a different subclass with its own awesome abilities like Portent.
Furthermore, you're still fairly fragile against attacks that target saves instead of AC, even something as simple as a Magma Mephit breath, and if you get incapacitated or paralyzed you instantly lose your Bladesong AC bonus--one minute you're fine, then you fail a save vs. Yeti gaze and suddenly your Bladesong is gone, you can't Shield, every hit is an auto-crit, and you're taking 40+ HP of damage per turn. On the other hand, healing is cheap in 5E especially once someone starts exploiting Aura of Vitality or Goodberry, so it's not like you'll have problems--but the point is that other PCs won't have problems either. E.g. Moon Druid has over 100 HP per short rest at this level, laughs at your 40 HP.
You've discovered your first powerful combo in 5E, but there are lots of others based on different classes/races/feats. Hopefully your fellow PCs discover their own combos soon so they can catch up and/or surpass you. If you tell us more about what classes they're playing, we might be able to suggest something.
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2020-06-27, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
We play 1 maybe 2 encounters per session, its a slower puzzle based campaign, so that might be why I am not thinking about this. But at most I only ever have seen 3 combat encounters.
Fireball would have roasted half the party every time I would cast it, Scorching ray has been the better option when I need to target. And as a wizard I wasn't planning on tanking, do other parties usually have front line wizards? I figured hiding behind the paladin, moon druid, Tempest cleric, and beast master ranger would be no different than standing next to them with blink, except now I am not begging for heals. And to be fair they are limited to 2 encounters as well and usually are spending all their resources which is why I asked.
Multiclassing severely hampers the wizard who is built on their spell slots. Pushing your higher level spell slots back is quite a hefty price to pay compared to a bladesinger who doesn't have to. And to respond to your "furthermore" section of the comment, arent 50% of classes (if not 90%) screwed in that perfect storm scenario anyways? A moon druid can have more than 100 HP at level 5 because they turn into a creature that cuts off their optimized stats and any meaningful bonus actions. the 100 HP is like me blinking, instead of just not being there, the druid gets a pool of free HP in creature for to absorb the damage.
Additionally to everyone, I didn't think about this before (its become something I take for granted), but I use the Spell Point variant spell casting which give me 27 Spell Points.
lvl 3 = 5 pts
lvl 2 = 3 pts
lvl 1 = 2 pts
I typically use the following:
blink 5pts, 1x per encounter
shadow blade level 3, 1x per encounter
False life before the dungeon, and can arcane recovery the points back on a short rest to cast it again if I need to (3 points)
and then I have points left over for a scorching ray or shield, In combat I just use my cantrip booming blade.
I think perhaps spell point flexibility mixed with the low combat encounters might be attributing to the godlike feelings I get, but if you all say it's not broken (easing my guilt) and I have been able to run my strategy without any issues, then I can just keep doing what I am doing!
Thanks for the input everyone!Last edited by Drache64; 2020-06-27 at 10:14 PM.
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2020-06-27, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
No. Bladesinger is not broken.
Any full caster that is able to use all their high level spell slots in one encounter is going to trounce it unless the DM makes it even more challenging. It doesn't matter which sort of wizard you are. An evoker could have used fireball with or without the party present doing 8d6 damage for each casting (save for half) to every one of the enemy creatures within a 20' radius while expending exactly the same number of spell slots as you. This is 16d6 damage to every enemy within 20' (save for half) compared to your piddly 4d8+4 vs ONE target every round AND you take a full round to set it up by casting blink and blade singing.
For the same resource expenditure, the evoker will typically be doing FAR more damage and will end the encounter even faster.
Any wizard could potentially make the encounter extremely easy with one casting of hypnotic pattern placed in the right spot.
Any 5th level wizard that can afford to use both their 3rd level slots in one encounter is likely to make it easy.
Bladesinger is fun and can be cool in melee but they are a wizard first and wizards are strong when they have resources to use.
If your DM runs only one or two encounters in a day then the long rest classes have a BIG advantage, especially at higher levels, since they can cast anything they want for those two fights knowing that they won't likely run out of spell slots. On the other hand, if your adventuring day is typically 5-8 encounters of varying types and difficulty - the wizard who uses all their high level spell slots in the first encounter may not survive the day.
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2020-06-27, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Bladesinger isn't broken. Another wizard could get right into the thick of things instead of having to spend their first turn buffing, and probably break more stuff in the process.
Playing a spell point variant wizard who only sees one or two encounters per day breaks things pretty badly. As mentioned above, when a daily resource class can nova all their powers in one go and doesn't have to worry about conserving, they're going to be much stronger by comparison.
For what it's worth, the DMG has a rest rule variant for people who think that multiple encounters per 24 hour period is unrealistic. If you want the game's mathematical pacing without the crush of encounters coming so quickly in game time, that might be a worthwhile change.
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2020-06-28, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
It's not that severe, and if you go Cleric 1 instead of Fighter 1 you don't lose spell slots anyway. You delay learning higher-level spells slightly compared to a Bladesinger, but you also get actual subclass features like Portent and Hypnotic Gaze. Since you're not really even casting spells like Fireball you must realize that having a tanky wizard can still contribute even without high-level spells: now imagine that your AC 21sh wizard now has an at-will non-concentration Hypnotic Gaze as well. The Bladesinger gets stuck slinging cantrips at a big monster whereas the Enchanter X/Forge Cleric 1 can just walk right up to it and disable it (with high-but-not-guaranteed probability), as many times per day as he wants. And unlike the Bladesinger, he isn't vulnerable to massed monster attacks just because he loses initiative or gets incapacitated, since his AC 21 is there all the time.
Bladesingers have their place too, and I'm not trying to say they're useless, but Bladesingers aren't outliers when it comes to durability.
And to respond to your "furthermore" section of the comment, arent 50% of classes (if not 90%) screwed in that perfect storm scenario anyways? A moon druid can have more than 100 HP at level 5 because they turn into a creature that cuts off their optimized stats and any meaningful bonus actions. the 100 HP is like me blinking, instead of just not being there, the druid gets a pool of free HP in creature for to absorb the damage.
Does this make the Bladesinger bad? No! It's still rather good. But you asked if it was "broken", and it has enough vulnerabilities that it's not broken.
Additionally to everyone, I didn't think about this before (its become something I take for granted), but I use the Spell Point variant spell casting which give me 27 Spell Points.
lvl 3 = 5 pts
lvl 2 = 3 pts
lvl 1 = 2 pts
*snip*
I think perhaps spell point flexibility mixed with the low combat encounters might be attributing to the godlike feelings I get, but if you all say it's not broken (easing my guilt) and I have been able to run my strategy without any issues, then I can just keep doing what I am doing!
That's one round of every encounter spent doing essentially nothing (Action: Blink, bonus Action: activate Bladesong), and another round doing not that much (Shadow Blade, attack once for 3d8+Dex), and it costs a huge chunk of your daily spell points to do so. I'm a little bit surprised you wind up feeling godlike in this scenario. I can only infer that your DM compensates for "few combat" by having "bigger, tougher combats" which give you enough time (5-6 rounds maybe?) to make Blink and Shadow Blade pay off. Is that right?
Maybe consider not casting Blink? From what you say, everybody else in the party is more fragile than you are, and Blink is basically just a spell for encouraging enemies to attack the other PCs. You'd save a round and help keep your buddies alive longer.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-06-28 at 01:02 AM.
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2020-06-28, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
False life lasts one hour, so if you short rest to use arcane recovery the temporary hit points expire.
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2020-06-28, 03:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-28, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
If you're having slower campaign than the game was balanced for, and want still a balanced game, the DM should consider slower rest.
Like short rest = night of sleep and long rest = 2 days of resting (weekend)
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2020-06-28, 03:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-28, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Scorching Ray is better that Fireball? Scorching Ray upcast to level 3 does 8d6 assuming all hit, the same as catching a single person with Fireball. So you couldn't ever position Fireball to hit 2 people without catching the rest of the team? All I can really say there then is that your combats must look very different than mine. Also I'm surprised you don't have a decent Dex as a combat focused bladesinger and aren't winning initiative occasionally and being able to lay down an AoE before lines engage. An example of why Bladersinger is not OP though perhaps - an Evocation wizard could be dropping Fireballs on top of the party all day long. You get good stuff but other subclasses do too.
Re tanking - you're the one who was saying that you had more HP than the tank and a high AC and were finishing combats untouched while everyone else was taking hits. My question to you is - is you being untouched benefitting the party or harming the party (keeping in mind you are expending a high level resources yourself to achieve this which could also be spent helping the rest of the party instead)?
To put this another way, the very first time I played 5E I played a swashbuckler rogue with Booming Blade. I was having great fun stabbing people and dashing away and was often finishing combats on full health due to making sure I was consistently not the easiest/most attractive target. However I quickly realised by making myself not the most attractive target, I was effectively pointing a big neon arrowo for our enemies at our squisher party members and saying 'hey these guys are more attractive targets than me'. Besides, if the fighter is standing alone taking all the aggro every fight, they're going to go down. That's just how 5E works. I realised there were times that it better served the party for me to stay in melee and present myself as a target. I took more damage but the other members of the party didn't take that damage. It's better for everyone in a 4 man party to take 50% damage than it is for 2 members to be on 100% while the other two are on 0%.
Its a team game and HP are a resource that you expend to help the team achieve victory. If you were concentrating on something really important to help the team win (as a bard player, Hypnotic Pattern has effectively ended many encounters before they even began and concentrating to deprieve large groups of enemies actions is huge) I would potentially agree that Blink was a good spell for you to be casting. I'm not sure +2d8*hit chance damage a turn is really that meaningful at the end of the day to justify expending another 3 level spell slot to protect - hell you could just recast it if you did drop concentration and Bladesong gives you a bonus to concentration saves.Last edited by Contrast; 2020-06-28 at 04:58 AM.
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2020-06-28, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
It's not broken, but well build and played is imo one of two strongest subclasses for Wizard: second being Evoker imo. I know some people swear on Illusion but it requires cooperation and good will from both player and DM while other two are just mechanically great.
Bladesinger gets extra attack, very good AC and free CON bonus, allowing him to focus him on other stats and feats and INT bonus to damage.
However, Bladesinger is either very good or super good if you build him right.
1 Fighter/14 Bladesinger with dual wielding, Elven Accuracy and Tenser Transformation can wreck great DPR in a turn. VS AC 20 enemy using two Short Swords +1 (for the sake of example as you should have better stuff at this level) his DPR is 84 DPR. That is one of the best DPRs vs AC 20.
Not only that but in Tenser with 20 DEX he has 0.936 (93%) chance to hit! Legendary accuracy.
And he is still full caster Wizard with all good spells, simulacrum etc.
Once he has Simularcum at level 16 - he can also have Haste from sim on him, increasing his DPR in Tenser form vs AC 20 to 112 DPR
But his accuracy carries even further. His DPR with Haste and Tenser vs AC 24 is 95 with 78% chance to hit! That is really one of the best.
But when you don't want to go full ham with just 1 SPELL, you still have full arsenal of Wizard spells, fireballs, hypnotic patterns etc.
So yes, it's very good, but not broken. There are more broken builds out there.Last edited by Alucard89; 2020-06-28 at 05:08 AM.
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2020-06-28, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Small note: the fact that you've "broken" the game defensively probably explain why the DM didn't change his playstyle.
1) DMs are much more quick to see the balance issues when a PC is just killing everything in sight without any real effort (which an evocation wizard would in this same campaign), than when the PC is making himself almost immortal.
2) When one of the PC is stronger offensively than the others, you can just increase the number of enemies. When one of the PC is stronger defensively than the other, increasing the difficulty of the encounter will affect the other PCs more than the "problematic" PC.
The bladesinger is not OP, however, that's a difficult subclass for your DM to balance in a low encounter-per-long-rest campaign.
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2020-06-28, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Yes, I was saying I can short rest later in the day, not right after.
In my campaign, yes. I currently have Scorching Ray and Melf's Minute meteors, in the last few combats my team has always been spread out and enemies have been dispersed. So fireball would roast the party, it's even been hard to position the meteors so no friendlies get hurt. But Scorching Ray with a 20 in INT means I almost never miss, when I do miss with a few rays it's like an enemy making a DEX save for less damage.
Though in the last fight, the party was spread out and having a hard time with gargoyles that had ambushed them. I killed one, but the rest of the party was having a hard time with the other 3. I had an option: send 4d6 to one, and 4d6 to another, or spend no spell slots run up and deal 4d8+4 to one (possibly 6d8 if it tried to flee). I decided more damage to one, for no resources, was better.
Turns out it was. I left one with barely any life, the paladin got a good smite off to kill the other, then the cleric missed their attack but spiritual weapon hit with just enough Damage to finish off the gargoyle. On my next turn the beast master Ranger and moon druid were the only ones left fighting a gargoyle. On my turn I again did 4d8+4 damage and finished off the bad guy.Last edited by Drache64; 2020-06-28 at 09:00 AM.
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2020-06-28, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
For clarity, you're aware you can choose where to place a Fireball centre (including three dimensionally if your DM is willing to play ball)? You don't have to centre it on someone. I just finished playing a game today where one of our casters managed to place a Fireball 3 rounds into a combat such that it hit 6 enemies without catching any allies within the blast.
My bard has never caught an ally in Hypnotic Pattern (albeit he can cheat as a glamour bard - though again, just demonstrating Bladersingers aren't OP they just have their own strengths just like other classes/subclasses do).
You spent a 3rd level spell slot to do 4d8+4. That is not no spell slots/no resources.
While I think casting Shadow Blade is likely not an efficient use of resources, you're clearly not being particularly strained combat wise and the game is about having fun more than it is about making efficient use of resources so if you want to run your Bladersinger as a melee fighter then you do you. The point I was making is that casting Blink doesn't seem like its really helping your team.
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2020-06-28, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
But that's just 1 Round. What if it's an illusion? What if it's holding Oteluke's resilient sphere? What if it has evasion? What do you do with the rest of combat?
I meant "no resources" as in "no more resources" I had already spent time in combat with shadow blade and blink, this was a decision if I should now spend more resources or just rely on the machine I set up.
I like getting the most bang for by buck when it comes to spell slots.
A fireball does 8d6 damage in a combat.
Shadow blade does 30d6+40 damage over 10 rounds in a combat. Assuming I don't lose concentration (+7 concentration check with advantage). At level 6 with multiattack I'll do 60d6+80 damage if combat goes 10 rounds.
Usually our combats last 5 rounds so that's 15d6+20 damage I have been getting, will be 30d6+40 next level.
Edit:
But I do have to add, everyone has thuroughly convinced me that the BS is not broken.
And I do think fireball has a place in my arsenal, I will add it to the spell book, but I didn't take it at level 5 and I made the right choice, I never would have been able to use it yet. I know you can choose where to place it but there's never been a combat where it would only hit enemies and not friendlies.Last edited by Drache64; 2020-06-28 at 01:29 PM.
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2020-06-28, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-06-28, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
A fireball in a crowd of enemies is great, but against a single target Shadow Blade is better, and fireball is extremely situational, a situation in which I have not found myself in (maybe 1 time at level 3) but my DM very rarely sets up combat where a group of enemies are placed to where I can fireball them.
Also with an 18 in DEX, I very rarely miss in combat. But either way, this is showing potential damage, not assuming I hit. Just like 8d6 is assuming no one saves.
Edit:
I also want to add that I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion! Thank you!Last edited by Drache64; 2020-06-28 at 01:41 PM.
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2020-06-28, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-28, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
I am not sure which one of you is right but 5+ encounters sounds more like a dungeon crawl vs RP focus.
I ran a session yesterday (3 person party), I wanted to go from 4-8pm (so 4 hours). The party passed through a ghost town they had previously visited, made camp in a cave, explored the cave for a brief moment, slept with a fire going so two orcs wandered in during the night investigating the fire. Warforged Barbarian on watch killed the two orcs while others slept. They broke camp in the morning, walked to an orc fortress to find is destroyed by 3 dryads and a giant elk. The dryads charmed their death cleric to attack the party.
They beat the encounter and it was 7:45pm. I wanted them to fight a phase spider next and have a conversation with a Copper Dragon, looking at the time I pulled the phase spider encounter out and went straight to the Copper Dragon conversation. We ended at 8:05+PM.
How the heck do you run 5-6+ encounters with a 4+ player party??
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2020-06-28, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Sessions don’t need to end with a long rest.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-06-28, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-28, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
Heh, yeah. I even myself many times tried that formula but it just doesn't work for me (nor any DM I ever played with). Taloring story and narrative with "must place 6-8 encounters during adventure day" never really led to anything. When asked different groups of players if they prefer 6-8 encounters or 2-4 interesting ones with some story put into them, most always say they prefer those. Also from my experience past 4 encounters players are getting tired (unless it's a dungeon or some sort of "battle" or "castle storm" etc.) and prefer to go back to some roleplaying.
I never understood why they had to balance game around 6-8.... 3-5 interesting encounters are more worth than 6 "deadly' stat block encounters or 8 for the sake of resource drain.
Anyway, I digress.
Bladesinger is fine. It's very balanced and can be power house when min-maxed but overall it's not really broken.
infamous Nuclear Wizard build 1 Hexblade/Evoker Wizard - now that's 100% broken.Last edited by Alucard89; 2020-06-28 at 02:01 PM.
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2020-06-28, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Blade Singer Wizard Broken?
You're a wizard, with spell points, with few encounters per day. You could play without a subclass and still be OP. Bladesinger isn't the busted part here