More Purple Gods?

[5crownik007]

1. Mortals can ascend to Godhood with the backing of a Pantheon, and they will join that Pantheon's quiddity.
2. Mortals can also ascend on their own. The only known example is TDO. More on that down below.
3. The existing Pantheons have Gods with Good, Neutral, Evil, Lawful and Chaotic gods. (all sorts)

Circumstances of TDO's ascension:

• He had a large number of followers.
• They were all greatly devoted to him, and practically worshipped him as a god BEFORE he died.
• He had to die to ascend to godhood. (Or in his case, be killed)
• His ascension created a new quiddity, separate from all the other pantheons.

So, with the above information, we could hazard a guess that we might see more Purple Gods in the future. Since it's so rare for someone to ascend on their own, we don't know if someone can ascend into an existing pantheon, or if all "self-ascensions" create new pantheons. TDO is the only one to have done it, so our sample size is presently only one. Putting that aside, this probably means that the only new Purple Gods are going to be mortals which TDO has put his "backing" behind, thus some possible candidates:

• Jirix. Already famous among the Goblin population, revered as the glorious leader. TDO knows of, and has plans for Jirix. Perhaps if Jirix finds the time to level up, he'll be god material. Perhaps the God of Paperwork, or something.
• Redcloak. Similar to above, but RC is higher level, and thus possibly more "god material". He's already lived an extended lifespan, and his original name is lost to time, pretty much. He's proba

We should also consider if TDO is willing to let non-Evil goblins ascend, we might see the Purple Pantheon grow with Evil gods joining first, as many goblins in present time are Evil, and TDO is favourable to Evil, then as time progresses and goblin society balances out with more balanced alignments, we could see some Neutral gods and then Good gods. Just some speculation.

Spoiler: sidenote about goblin specieism and non-goblinoid purple gods

Show

Aside from the above, we can be fairly sure that any new Purple Gods with TDO's backing will be Goblinoids, because I highly doubt TDO will put his backing into a Humanoid, and even if he did, what about all the Goblinoids who would have to borderline worship them too?

...but, give it a few thousand years maybe? A few new Purple Gods with slightly different alignments to TDO, some Goblinoid prosperity, falling of specieist tensions, and then perhaps some strange Human or Dwarf or Elf joins the Purple Pantheon? Wouldn't that be something to see, eh?

TL;DR speculation about new purple gods following TDO... probably long after this whole Gates crisis is resolved

[137beth]

Given that TDO himself is weak enough that he might not survive until the next world, my suspicion is that he won't have enough energy to "sponsor" new gods for a long time.


Also, in recent Patreon commentary, the Giant said that ascencion from a pantheon supporting a new god was something he introduced to explain an early gag in the comic (V's religion in DCF).

A lot of the things that are crucial parts of the story were just random gags early on that I then had to work into a cohesive narrative without invalidating the earlier comics. One example: the reason there’s an elven pantheon is because V mentions it during the original Banjo scene. This was before I developed the entire Snarl plotline and the specific roles each pantheon was going to play in the backstory of the world. I had to retrofit the existence of the elven gods into the framework I invented later, and do so in a way that kept them separate from the unique role I needed the goblin god to play. That’s why the elven gods are described as being “sponsored” by the Western Pantheon and thus sharing their red quiddity—because if I had been planning this all from the beginning, they wouldn’t exist at all!

[RatElemental]

I gotta say, "Redcloak ascends to godhood and provides the purple quiddity his own damn self" is not an angle I had considered before. The main issues I can see, however:

1. Narratively, this isn't that different from Redcloak just granting some of his dark one powered spell slots to a ritual unless the dark one is hiding things from Redcloak regarding the plan (IE, he wants to blow the world up no matter what).
2. If Redcloak and the dark one are out of sync in their goals, why would the dark one sponsor Redcloak to become a deity?

I just can't think of any plausible circumstances under which the dark one would allow Redcloak to provide purple quiddity in which he himself would not.

[Dion]

So Redcloak ascends to godhood, and get purple quiddity.

Then we wait 20 years for a new goblin Cleric of Redcloak to reach 17th level.

Then the new goblin cleric casts the 9th level spell?

[Fyraltari]

So Redcloak ascends to godhood, and get purple quiddity.

Then we wait 20 years for a new goblin Cleric of Redcloak to reach 17th level.

Then the new goblin cleric casts the 9th level spell?

Unnecessary, the ‘get the priest to grant us a 9th level spell’ plan only exists to circumvent the problem that the Dark One refuses to help. If a god with a purple essence were on-board with sealing the Rifts, Thor and Co wouldn’t need a puny mortal’s help.

[Peelee]

Unnecessary, the ‘get the priest to grant us a 9th level spell’ plan only exists to circumvent the problem that the Dark One refuses to help.

I firmly believe Redcloak's comments in the first panel here foreshadow that at some point, he will try to cast a spell and will not be able to. As a corollary, I must then believe that the plan would not at all circumvent the problem that The Dark One refuses to help. Especially since, even if RC could get it off the first time, there would be no "spot-welding" afterwards, and the Snarl still ends the world. Just a few years later.

[littlebum2002]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

[137beth]

Unnecessary, the ‘get the priest to grant us a 9th level spell’ plan only exists to circumvent the problem that the Dark One refuses to help. If a god with a purple essence were on-board with sealing the Rifts, Thor and Co wouldn’t need a puny mortal’s help.

I thought the point of approaching Redcloak was that it was safer to TALK to him than to approach the Dark One. They might still need TDO to agree, but by talking to Redcloak first, it's more likely TDO will end up hearing the plan before deciding to reject it and attack.

[Cazero]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Creating resentful deities is a recipe for disaster. Eventualy, one of them will be willing to end all of creation forever out of spite, and their unique quiddity will put them in the perfect position to force such an issue with new Snarlings. Heck, TDO might already be in that boat.

[littlebum2002]

Creating resentful deities is a recipe for disaster. Eventualy, one of them will be willing to end all of creation forever out of spite, and their unique quiddity will put them in the perfect position to force such an issue with new Snarlings. Heck, TDO might already be in that boat.

How? All the deities need to do is pull the plug before the new resentful deity has the chance to end creation.

[dancrilis]

How? All the deities need to do is pull the plug before the new resentful deity has the chance to end creation.

The new deity will presumedly not disappear immediately with the world - as such all they will need to do is meet, fight and tangle together some two colour snarls.

[Anymage]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Belief (and devotion and souls) are both food and power to gods. In theory, if everybody was willing to leave a large enough group of sentients alone, the gods could foster the creation of any new quiddity they like. A greek setting with mild nudgings and none of the gods making their presence known could probably recreate the eastern pantheon, or at least something close enough to it.

Good luck getting every god in every pantheon to agree to leave that much belief on the table, instead of trying to take some of it for themselves. The fact that goblinoids were sentients who were considered beneath courting for worship was what made TDO possible. I don't think that you'd be able to get everybody to agree, and you certainly wouldn't be able to stop someone or other from sending an adventuring party with a convenient cleric into the location. Too many ways for someone to screw something up. I don't think that new quiddities can be easily generated even now that the gods know it's possible.

[Cazero]

Heck, they don't even need to know that it could create new Snarls, and breeding resentment makes such an accidental creation more likely.

[RatElemental]

I firmly believe Redcloak's comments in the first panel here foreshadow that at some point, he will try to cast a spell and will not be able to. As a corollary, I must then believe that the plan would not at all circumvent the problem that The Dark One refuses to help. Especially since, even if RC could get it off the first time, there would be no "spot-welding" afterwards, and the Snarl still ends the world. Just a few years later.

On the other hand, making a section of reality that the snarl is incapable of shredding is a hell of a test case to show the other deities what's possible here, and the ability to do that again is a fantastic bargaining chip for TDO.

[mjasghar]

Having redcloak rewarded with deification is not in line with his likely narrative destiny

[Grey Watcher]

On the other hand, making a section of reality that the snarl is incapable of shredding is a hell of a test case to show the other deities what's possible here, and the ability to do that again is a fantastic bargaining chip for TDO.

True. Because it's not like the other gods only need him once. They'll need TDO every single time a new rift forms. Which is a much stronger position from which to demand concessions than "I can kill at least one of you before you can stop me."

It remains to be seen which, if either, will be dispassionate enough to see this.

[Peelee]

On the other hand, making a section of reality that the snarl is incapable of shredding is a hell of a test case to show the other deities what's possible here, and the ability to do that again is a fantastic bargaining chip for TDO.

True. Because it's not like the other gods only need him once. They'll need TDO every single time a new rift forms. Which is a much stronger position from which to demand concessions than "I can kill at least one of you before you can stop me."

It remains to be seen which, if either, will be dispassionate enough to see this.

Ya know, I just realized... that's really the only card The Dark One has to play, and even that isn't as strong as he thinks. The ritual for the Gate takes quite some time (weeks, IIRC?), so if it looks like Redcloak is getting close to pulling it off, the gods could just unmake the world and start anew, keeping them safe and getting rid of the crazy newbie who tried to a gun to their heads. And even with the bargaining chip of "with my help, we can fix this", he can't go overboard on the demands, because if the hassle of dealing with him outweighs the permanent, snarl-free world, the gods know that a new color is possible and they can just focus on trying to recreate that; they certainly have the time. It's obviously best to try to work with TDO, but if the bird in the hand just won't stop pooping on you, the two in the bush start looking mighty appealing.

I like how it's actually a pretty even power dynamic there, with neither side really having an upper hand and each needing the other for the optimal solution.

[littlebum2002]

Belief (and devotion and souls) are both food and power to gods. In theory, if everybody was willing to leave a large enough group of sentients alone, the gods could foster the creation of any new quiddity they like. A greek setting with mild nudgings and none of the gods making their presence known could probably recreate the eastern pantheon, or at least something close enough to it.

Good luck getting every god in every pantheon to agree to leave that much belief on the table, instead of trying to take some of it for themselves. The fact that goblinoids were sentients who were considered beneath courting for worship was what made TDO possible. I don't think that you'd be able to get everybody to agree, and you certainly wouldn't be able to stop someone or other from sending an adventuring party with a convenient cleric into the location. Too many ways for someone to screw something up. I don't think that new quiddities can be easily generated even now that the gods know it's possible.

The gods have already agreed on plenty of rules, though, because of the threat of the Snarl. And even someone like Thor who thinks the rules are stupid is too afraid to break them. Plus, all the gods seem anxious to end the threat of the snarl, so why would they risk losing that opportunity just to get a minor power boost for one iteration of the world?

[dancrilis]

The gods have already agreed on plenty of rules, though, because of the threat of the Snarl. And even someone like Thor who thinks the rules are stupid is too afraid to break them. Plus, all the gods seem anxious to end the threat of the snarl, so why would they risk losing that opportunity just to get a minor power boost for one iteration of the world?

Because they don't know how that world will affect them - they could end up like Hel (or worse) and perhaps not survive until the new incarnation - there is very little point in defeating the Snarl if you die in the process (or such might be the thinking of a number of the less worship friendly gods).

[Grey Watcher]

Ya know, I just realized... that's really the only card The Dark One has to play, and even that isn't as strong as he thinks. The ritual for the Gate takes quite some time (weeks, IIRC?), so if it looks like Redcloak is getting close to pulling it off, the gods could just unmake the world and start anew, keeping them safe and getting rid of the crazy newbie who tried to a gun to their heads. And even with the bargaining chip of "with my help, we can fix this", he can't go overboard on the demands, because if the hassle of dealing with him outweighs the permanent, snarl-free world, the gods know that a new color is possible and they can just focus on trying to recreate that; they certainly have the time. It's obviously best to try to work with TDO, but if the bird in the hand just won't stop pooping on you, the two in the bush start looking mighty appealing.

I like how it's actually a pretty even power dynamic there, with neither side really having an upper hand and each needing the other for the optimal solution.

Oh don't get me wrong, it's not going to let him just steamroll his way through negotiations, but the carrot is still a step up from the stick. Assuming The Dark One's goals are what we've been told, it's should be enough leverage to get a lot of what he wants.

Of course, if TDO's goals are not as advertised, then bets are off.

[Fyraltari]

I firmly believe Redcloak's comments in the first panel here foreshadow that at some point, he will try to cast a spell and will not be able to. As a corollary, I must then believe that the plan would not at all circumvent the problem that The Dark One refuses to help. Especially since, even if RC could get it off the first time, there would be no "spot-welding" afterwards, and the Snarl still ends the world. Just a few years later.

Thor’s plan is to go behind the Dark One’s back. That’ll leave him and the other gods a few thousand years to find a way to reach to TDO. He might even cool down on his own. At the very least it would mean that TDO would have enough mojo to survive to the next world at which point he’ll have no choice but to co-operate.
Thor might even bank of TDO re-opening communications once his plan is foiled.

However Thor formulated his plan without any knowledge of the World-Within-The-World, the IFCC’s schemes and, possibly, whatever Green and Orange are up to.
His plan is not going to go the way he wanted to.

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

You and I have very different conceptions of what ‘a better solution’ would entail. Religiously mandated genocide is not part of mine.

I thought the point of approaching Redcloak was that it was safer to TALK to him than to approach the Dark One. They might still need TDO to agree, but by talking to Redcloak first, it's more likely TDO will end up hearing the plan before deciding to reject it and attack.

No, Thor says he wants Durkon to convince Redcloak to help and that they need him to channel the Dark One’s power into their spell. Thor is trying to go behind TDO’s back.

Having redcloak rewarded with deification is not in line with his likely narrative destiny

Agreed.

I like how it's actually a pretty even power dynamic there, with neither side really having an upper hand and each needing the other for the optimal solution.

That’s what they say about compromise: it’s when nobody walks away with what they wanted.

[Grey Watcher]

An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Two problems:

1. That's liable to get them right back where they started, with the new god being super-uncooperative because they have a huge chip on their shoulder from how the mortals from whom they arose were screwed over by design from the world's planning stages. While they MIGHT do better by letting them in on the secret of the Snarl sooner than they did The Dark One, there are enough gods unwilling to be the first to extend the olive branch (eg Tyr) that they might not get the chance. So we're back to "only god with fourth quddity is hostile and impossible to safely communicate with."
2. Everything else that's horribly wrong with deliberately setting up a people specifically to be the targets of attempted genocide in the hopes that they'll retaliate in kind.

[Peelee]

Thor’s plan is to go behind the Dark One’s back. That’ll leave him and the other gods a few thousand years to find a way to reach to TDO.

Given that four gates have been blown wide open, I think that "a few thousand years" is wildly optimistic, since they'd be sealing the sole remaining Gate.

Also,Thor isn't trying to go behind TDO's back. He wants his cleric to talk to TDO's cleric on his behalf. I'm pretty sure any plan Durkon or Thor come up with won't involve asking Redcloak to betray his god.

[dancrilis]

... since they'd be sealing the sole remaining Gate.

I believe that the plan is to seal the rifts not the gates (panels 3 and 4).

[Fyraltari]

Given that four gates have been blown wide open, I think that "a few thousand years" is wildly optimistic, since they'd be sealing the sole remaining Gate.

If one elf can, with the help of the ghost of one human, cast a spell that targeted thousands of creature worldwide, I feel confident that three gods can cast a spell targeting five spacetime rifts at once.

Also,Thor isn't trying to go behind TDO's back. He wants his cleric to talk to TDO's cleric on his behalf. I'm pretty sure any plan Durkon or Thor come up with won't involve asking Redcloak to betray his god.

If that were the case he wouldn’t need Redcloak to actually cast the spell, yet he specifically said he needed him to contribute.

[Cazero]

If that were the case he wouldn’t need Redcloak to actually cast the spell, yet he specifically said he needed him to contribute.

And I'm pretty sure any plan involving Redcloak casting spells will require the Dark One's approval. Because cleric.

[Peelee]

I believe that the plan is to seal the rifts not the gates (panels 3 and 4).

Indeed. That plan requires the help of The Dark One, and not a cleric going behind his back. The cleric going behind his back could get one Gate before TDO withheld spells.

If one elf can, with the help of the ghost of one human, cast a spell that targeted thousands of creature worldwide, I feel confident that three gods can cast a spell targeting five spacetime rifts at once.

One elf who was effectively far, far into epic level. Redcloak is not. And...

If that were the case he wouldn’t need Redcloak to actually cast the spell, yet he specifically said he needed him to contribute.

Yes, because that's how the gods intercede in the material plane. If they could just boost powers all willy nilly like the other half of I quoted above, Thor could empower Durkon to one-shot Xykon. Thor can't talk to TDO directly. Thor can talk to TDO through their clerics. The clerics are devoted to their gods, and will not go behind their gods' backs all of a sudden. Redcloak ain't giving that spell slot unless he knows TDO wants him to. And, in the extremely unlikely event RC does and TDO doesn't want him to, they'll get a single gate, and TDO will be more resistant, not less, to joining with the other gods.

And, as a final aside, "let's betray The Dark One" seems like an especially monumentally bad plan to suggest to the high priest of Thr Dark One, given what Redcloak told us about The Dark One's past.

[Fyraltari]

One elf who was effectively far, far into epic level. Redcloak is not. And...

Thor and the two other gods he'll need to get access to the Southern and Western godly essence, however, are far beyond that.

Yes, because that's how the gods intercede in the material plane. If they could just boost powers all willy nilly like the other half of I quoted above, Thor could empower Durkon to one-shot Xykon. Thor can't talk to TDO directly. Thor can talk to TDO through their clerics. The clerics are devoted to their gods, and will not go behind their gods' backs all of a sudden. Redcloak ain't giving that spell slot unless he knows TDO wants him to. And, in the extremely unlikely event RC does and TDO doesn't want him to, they'll get a single gate, and TDO will be more resistant, not less, to joining with the other gods.

Except that we know the gods don't actually need to go through Clerics to interfere with the mortal plane. Here is Thor throwing lightning at a ship, here is the Hight Priest of Hel claiming his mistress could unleas plagues on mortals and here is Hel preparing to give a mortal a heart attack.
The gods have agreed to use Clerics to avoid direct confrontation with each otherfor fear of creating a Snarl but nothing would stop them to cast a spell inside the Material plane to stop the Snarl, in fact they do every time they rebuild the world.

Thor doesn't plan to have Redclaok rebuild the Gates (if he were, he'd be right **** because he would need a Cleric of each pantheon who is both A) powerful enough to cast 9th level spells and B) aware of the Snarl and he has none of those). Thor plans to have Recloak give him and his allies access to the Fifht godly essence so they can do it.

And, as a final aside, "let's betray The Dark One" seems like an especially monumentally bad plan to suggest to the high priest of Thr Dark One, given what Redcloak told us about The Dark One's past.

Like I said, the dark One would have a few thousand years to come to terms witht he fact that his Plan won't work. Meanwhile the other gods will enjoy unprecedented security. Plenty of time to better their relationship with TDO, for example by sending word to their clerics that people ought to treat goblinoids better now.

Is it a perfect plan? No. But it's a solid one and it's Thor's.

[Peelee]

Thor and the two other gods he'll need to get access to the Southern and Western godly essence, however, are far beyond that.

Shame that Redcloak doesn't get power from the Northern, Southern, and Western gods, then.

Except that we know the gods don't actually need to go through Clerics to interfere with the mortal plane. Here is Thor throwing lightning at a ship,

Thor is the god of lightning. His casting lightning is hardly surprising.

here is the Hight Priest of Hel claiming his mistress could unleas plagues on mortals

She could, since the domain accords would be broken, which means any god could act in any way, which would probably destroy the world, in the best case scenario (worst case would be a new snarl).

and here is Hel preparing to give a mortal a heart attack.

ThorHel is the god of lightningdisease. HisHer casting lightningdisease is hardly surprising.

The gods have agreed to use Clerics to avoid direct confrontation with each otherfor fear of creating a Snarl but nothing would stop them to cast a spell inside the Material plane to stop the Snarl, in fact they do every time they rebuild the world.

The Dark One would most likely strenuously object, to the point of doing whatever he wanted to the world since the other gods are also, and we're back to best-case-destroyed territory. Like, nothing we've seen suggests The Dark One is the "welp, that didn't work, let me just mope around a bit for a few millennia" kind of guy.

Is it a perfect plan? No. But it's a solid one and it's Thor's.

I didn't say it wouldn't be a perfect plan. I said it would be an especially monumentally bad plan. I see no reason to change my mind on that.

[dancrilis]

Indeed. That plan requires the help of The Dark One, and not a cleric going behind his back. The cleric going behind his back could get one Gate before TDO withheld spells.

I agree that the plan is (very) likely to be get the Dark One onboard ... but it might not need him if they have one of his clerics once.

For instance you have a lake of water and from that lake you take a bucket of water I have a lot of tea bags - you get a tea bag from me (somehow) and mix it with your bucket creating very very weak tea, well if all you need is a little tea which will last you for thousands of years then you don't really need me in any immediate sense anymore.

Now if this were the case then a level 8th spell might also work (or lower) just lasting less time but as we are not dealing with water and tea bags it is possible that a 9th is needed for a purity value (i.e sufficent power for a Miracle).

We do have a religious authority indicating that Thor is not trustworthy.