More Purple Gods?

[Worldsong]

I'm joining the group which thinks that convincing Redcloak to betray the Dark One is a monumentally bad idea, regardless of whether he's convinced or not.

Did you miss the part where I said I expected Thor's plan to fail or are you ignoring it? Because, yes I do think the end point of the story will be peaceful resolution between Team Violet and the rest of the gods/world. I just disagree with the proposition that Thor's planis to negotiate with the Dark One right now, when he thinks he doesn't need too and is melting the ambassadors he receives. You can't negotiate with someoen who doesn't think they have anything to lose.

Maybe the idea is that if Redcloak, the Dark One's own High Cleric, asks for his help he's less likely to skip to immediate liquification. I mean Big Purple is supposed to be Evil but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whose response to his foremost servant disagreeing with him is to immediately yell "YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME."

[Fyraltari]

I'm joining the group which thinks that convincing Redcloak to betray the Dark One is a monumentally bad idea, regardless of whether he's convinced or not.

whatver you think of it, that's the plan Thor outlied to Durkon.

Maybe the idea is that if Redcloak, the Dark One's own High Cleric, asks for his help he's less likely to skip to immediate liquification. I mean Big Purple is supposed to be Evil but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy whose response to his foremost servant disagreeing with him is to immediately yell "YOU HAVE FAILED ME FOR THE LAST TIME."

Considering that after Redcloak built the largest goblin settlement on the planet on the ashes of a city that had been raiding hobgoblin villages for a generation, his message to said high priest amounted to "get back to work", I really don't think he'd take his High Priest arguing in favour of hi ennemis in stride, no.

[Peelee]

whatver you think of it, that's the plan Thor outlied to Durkon.

No, it's not. You choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to betray The Dark One. I choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to get The Dark One onboard with his plan. Given that Redcloak has explicitly told us that his magical abilities are directly dependent on The Dark One approving his actions, I feel that my reading is more likely than yours.

Regardless, though, your reading is not objective truth.

[Worldsong]

whatver you think of it, that's the plan Thor outlied to Durkon.

That's how you have interpreted it but I don't agree with your interpretation. I think that Thor wants Durkon to convince Redcloak to act as an intermediary so the good guys can discuss the situation with the Dark One through a channel that Big Purple won't immediately terminate. Namely his most trusted, powerful and devoted servant.

Considering that after Redcloak built the largest goblin settlement on the planet on the ashes of a city that had been raiding hobgoblin villages for a generation, his message to said high priest amounted to "get back to work", I really don't think he'd take his High Priest arguing in favour of hi ennemis in stride, no.

That just indicates that the Dark One has high demands for Redcloak. It does not equal him being willing to liquify Redcloak the moment he voices a thought that Big Purple isn't happy with.

[Jasdoif]

No, it's not. You choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to betray The Dark One. I choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to get The Dark One onboard with his plan.

I'm pretty sure Thor expects the Dark One's high priest not to undermine his own god, even if Redcloak wanted to; much like Sunna's high priest. Beyond that, going against the Dark One now all but guarantees he isn't going to cooperate with the next set of rifts; though honestly I don't expect Thor to wonder why Redcloak gets on board, that's the whole point of Thor putting his faith in Durkon.

[Fyraltari]

No, it's not. You choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to betray The Dark One. I choose to read that as Thor telling Durkon to convince Redcloak to get The Dark One onboard with his plan. Given that Redcloak has explicitly told us that his magical abilities are directly dependent on The Dark One approving his actions, I feel that my reading is more likely than yours.

Regardless, though, your reading is not objective truth.

Seriously? My reading is to take Thor's words at face value. Your reading is based on the idea that the most critical part, what Thor actually wants, is left unsaid, which is just puzzling to me. Like, He just said that TDO refused to talk to the other gods and that the gods couldn't even agree on what to do if he was willing to talk to them.

"I'm suppos'd ta convince a god?
-No, no, no. You need to convince the Dark One's high priest - you know him as Redcloak - to help us. We need him to channel his god's purple quiddity into the process of closing the rifts."

That's what is said. Thor isn't saying "You need to convince him to convince the Dark One to help us". He says to convince Redcloak to help. That Redcloak has to channel TDO's energy.

Would Redcloak lose his powers if he acted behind TDO's back? Most certainly. But only after he'd done so, not before.

[Peelee]

Seriously? My reading is to take Thor's words at face value.

No, your reading is taking Thor to say, "hey, get a high priest to betray the God he's served for fifty years now and has thrown away everything in service towards, which will also virtually guarantee that he will not help afterwards, given his history of being betrayed."

My reading is to assume Thor would not come up with possibly the most monumentally poorly-thought-out plan that relies on a high priest to betray their god, resulting on their god almost certainly refusing any further attempts to save the world.

And, if you want it on a thematic note, I do not believe the author would say "here is a horribly oppressed race with a horribly repressed god who is justifiably upset at said oppression. Let's trick him into helping us because he can't be trusted to decide for himself." It's thematically anathema to the entire point of the rest of the story, and I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to see Thor as completely blind to that.

[Dion]

I'm joining the group which thinks that convincing Redcloak to betray the Dark One is a monumentally bad idea, regardless of whether he's convinced or not.

I have to reluctantly agree with Fyraltari on this. I think Thor’s plan really is to convince Redcloak to betray TDO and seal the rift with or without his permission.

This is clearly a monumentally bad idea for Redcloak.

It seems, however, be the best option Thor has given the information Thor currently has at his disposal.

I’m going to make some predictions:

1. The book probably won’t be 20 pages long.
2. Redcloak won’t agree with the plan right away
3. Thor doesn’t know about the planet in the rift, and there exist better options Thor is not currently aware of
4. Banjo is not going to save the world

[Fyraltari]

snip

Tell you what, since neither of us is going to change the other's mind what don't we wait a xouple of strips to see what Durkon actually proposes to the goblin with the red cape?

[Worldsong]

I have to reluctantly agree with Fyraltari on this. I think Thor’s plan really is to convince Redcloak to betray TDO and seal the rift with or without his permission.

This is clearly a monumentally bad idea for Redcloak.

It seems, however, be the best option Thor has given the information Thor currently has at his disposal.

I’m going to make some predictions:

1. The book probably won’t be 20 pages long.
2. Redcloak won’t agree with the plan right away
3. Thor doesn’t know about the planet in the rift, and there exist better options Thor is not currently aware of
4. Banjo is not going to save the world

I'll make the prediction that regardless of how Thor might have meant for Durkon to approach the issue Durkon is going to try and convince Redcloak to talk to the Dark One about The Plan and Thor's proposal.

Even if it turned out that Thor's plan was for Redcloak to betray the Dark One I don't think Durkon would go about it that way. Being a cleric himself he'd probably be even more aware that convincing Redcloak to betray his deity would never work.

Actually that would be pretty satisfying from a narrative perspective: Thor has a plan but Durkon, being able to sympathize with Redcloak as a fellow mortal and cleric, realizes that a different approach is needed if they want to have a chance at succeeding.

[Fyraltari]

I'll make the prediction that regardless of how Thor might have meant for Durkon to approach the issue Durkon is going to try and convince Redcloak to talk to the Dark One about The Plan and Thor's proposal.

Even if it turned out that Thor's plan was for Redcloak to betray the Dark One I don't think Durkon would go about it that way. Being a cleric himself he'd probably be even more aware that convincing Redcloak to betray his deity would never work.

Actually that would be pretty satisfying from a narrative perspective: Thor has a plan but Durkon, being able to sympathize with Redcloak as a fellow mortal and cleric, realizes that a different approach is needed if they want to have a chance at succeeding.

Ooh, I like that one.

[RatElemental]

No, your reading is taking Thor to say, "hey, get a high priest to betray the God he's served for fifty years now and has thrown away everything in service towards, which will also virtually guarantee that he will not help afterwards, given his history of being betrayed."

My reading is to assume Thor would not come up with possibly the most monumentally poorly-thought-out plan that relies on a high priest to betray their god, resulting on their god almost certainly refusing any further attempts to save the world.

And, if you want it on a thematic note, I do not believe the author would say "here is a horribly oppressed race with a horribly repressed god who is justifiably upset at said oppression. Let's trick him into helping us because he can't be trusted to decide for himself." It's thematically anathema to the entire point of the rest of the story, and I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to see Thor as completely blind to that.

It's a well established trope for a powerful person's right hand man to make a decision behind his back that makes him look good, and then make it look like it was his idea all along. That's how I would view Redcloak deciding to "betray" the dark one. If you want the gods to make concessions, dangling the possibility of ending their biggest threat ever and giving a demonstration to show it's possible isn't a bad way of going about that.

This would also give TDO two options if Redcloak did it: Play along and negotiate with the other gods, the supposed goal of his current plan. Or take his ball and go home, achieving nothing because now there are no gates left to subvert. I could see Redcloak, if he were less invested in his sunk cost fallacy, opting to take a more expedient route to his god's stated goal.

[Peelee]

It's a well established trope for a powerful person's right hand man to make a decision behind his back that makes him look good, and then make it look like it was his idea all along. That's how I would view Redcloak deciding to "betray" the dark one. If you want the gods to make concessions, dangling the possibility of ending their biggest threat ever and giving a demonstration to show it's possible isn't a bad way of going about that.

This would also give TDO two options if Redcloak did it: Play along and negotiate with the other gods, the supposed goal of his current plan. Or take his ball and go home, achieving nothing because now there are no gates left to subvert. I could see Redcloak, if he were less invested in his sunk cost fallacy, opting to take a more expedient route to his god's stated goal.

You're assuming TDO knows thing he doesn't and trusts the other gods. He believes he can survive to the next world, so if they take away the card he wants to play, he wouldn't just fold, he would play the other card - try to destroy the world so that he can have a hand in building the next one. He has trust issues already, being betrayed by the other gods in collusion with his high priest would do nothing but exacerbate that, well-known trope or not (and I don't that trope has the powerful person aware of his right-hand man's actions at all times). Further, given that "destroy the world" is already plan B, it seems just a tad more likely than "go dull about it peacefully".

[dancrilis]

... so if they take away the card he wants to play ...

I am not sure that it would.
A four colour seal should prevent the Snarl breaking out - but we don't know how difficult it would be for someone else to break in.

The ritual to move the gates would presumedly still move the gates and the gate (and seal) may still then be broken.

It is possible that Thor's plan would effectively mean the gods don't feel rushed to end this world - but that the Dark One (and perhaps more importantly Redcloak) could still seek to gain additional advantage afterwards.

[JSSheridan]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

Would blue + yellow = green?

Or for southern + western = purple?

northern + western = orange?

[Peelee]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

At a guess? They wouldn't be able to. Or, if they could, they'd be keeping whatever color they have to begin with.

[Worldsong]

What would happen if a handful of minor gods from the northern and southern pantheons broke away to form a new pantheon?

Would blue + yellow = green?

Or for southern + western = purple?

northern + western = orange?

The colours are used to represent the essence of the gods, a fundamental part of their being. Mixing them doesn't create a new type of essence, it creates a combination of the essences used as a base. A shirt which is woven from blue and yellow threads (evenly distributed) might appear green but is still in the end formed of blue and yellow threads.

As Thor has pointed out the result of mixing several essences is stuff like mortals or the world. While something made of multiple essences has increased stability and realness they don't produce a new type of essence.

Of course it might theoretically be possible to have several gods split off and form their own group and convince the mortals so thoroughly of their new pantheon that the mortals start believing in it... but my hypothesis would be that such an act would drastically change the gods to fit the new essence (effectively killing their old selves) and require a miracle of equal rarity as the Dark One's ascension, which would render the entire exercise pointless.

[Sesharan]

Is it really a betrayal of the Dark One for Redcloak to seal the rifts, though?

Put aside the last remaining Gate for a moment, and let's just talk about the four unsealed rifts. The Dark One doesn't have any plans for those rifts, yes? His plan requires the presence of a Gate. The rifts themselves are useless to him, and in fact pose a very real threat— a threat to both the Dark One's favored nation and to his continued existence. Unless Redcloak and the Dark One want this reality to unravel, they have a vested interest in sealing those other rifts. In fact, they have a vested interest in sealing every rift that doesn't have a Gate on it. And one rift with a Gate on it is almost as good as no rifts at all, in terms of Snarl security.

And sure, that leaves the problem of the last Gate and the Plan and the ritual... but at least fixing the other rifts guarantees that Xykon can't end the world by Meteor Swarming the Gate when he realizes the ritual didn't do what he thought it would. Having Redcloak (and/or the Dark One) seal the other four rifts is a perfectly reasonable compromise.

(Also, returning to the original topic: Ever since the importance of a fourth quiddity was revealed, I've assumed that the gods would attempt to duplicate the ascension of the Dark One with a more reasonable deity at some future time. It would not be difficult to set up the next world with several expendable monster populations ripe for the apotheosis-slaughter. I even suspect that they might endeavor to create multiple deities now that they know the recipe— a five-color world-seal would probably solve their problems forever. They've been in this cycle for a very long time, after all. From the perspective of the more pragmatic deities, it would make more sense to let this world end and the Dark One along with it. Just keep making new worlds and new gods until they get one that they like.)

[Peelee]

Unless Redcloak and the Dark One want this reality to unravel, they have a vested interest in sealing those other rifts.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

The Dark One's plan explicitly calls reality unraveling "Plan B."

[Sesharan]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

The Dark One's plan explicitly calls reality unraveling "Plan B."

I've read Start of Darkness, and I do remember that part, but that was A) before there was a sovereign goblin nation sitting under one of the rifts, and B) before we knew that the Dark One has bad odds of surviving until the next world is made.

[Peelee]

I've read Start of Darkness, and I do remember that part, but that was A) before there was a sovereign goblin nation sitting under one of the rifts, and B) before we knew that the Dark One has bad odds of surviving until the next world is made.

A.) is irrelevant if he can have global goblin equality literally built into the world. After all, if the city was enough, there'd be no reason to continue the Plan.
B.) is something we know, but not something The Dark One knows.

[Sesharan]

A.) is irrelevant if he can have global goblin equality literally built into the world. After all, if the city was enough, there'd be no reason to continue the Plan.
B.) is something we know, but not something The Dark One knows.

I'll grant you A, but... Durkon knows about B. I have to assume he'll explain that "your god will probably die if the Snarl gets free" while trying to convince them to not let the Snarl free.

[Peelee]

I'll grant you A, but... Durkon knows about B. I have to assume he'll explain that "your god will probably die if the Snarl gets free" while trying to convince them to not let the Snarl free.

I agree that will likely be something Durkon will try. However, when your plan is to hold a gun to the head of someone else and they say "oh, that gun will kill you instead, trust us on this," that doesn't really sound terribly convincing. Imean, I certainly would love Durkon to convince Redcloak and TDO... but that's a hard hand to play.

[Worldsong]

I agree that will likely be something Durkon will try. However, when your plan is to hold a gun to the head of someone else and they say "oh, that gun will kill you instead, trust us on this," that doesn't really sound terribly convincing. Imean, I certainly would love Durkon to convince Redcloak and TDO... but that's a hard hand to play.

"In case you haven't noticed, the barrel is pointing in the wrong direction."

[HiddenTrack]

Redcloak getting reborn with Purple Quiddity is definitely an interesting possibility I hadn't properly considered.

Are there any other characters it'd be narratively satisfying to be reborn as gods? With a purple/different colour quiddity?

Obvious joke answer would be Banjo, but I feel like we've had the 'that won't work, he's a puppet' answered at the Godsmoot.

One of the main gang seems like another obvious choice... Belkar after his inevitable death? Elan becomes god of happy endings?

There is also the possibility of the dead green quiddity gods making a reappearance...

[RatElemental]

Belkar ascending as a sexy shoeless god of war has been proposed ever since he gave himself that moniker and got his death prophecy.

I suppose V could ascend as a god(dess) of redemption or something. Would be a plausible way to atone for familicide if they spent eternity inspiring and helping others to right their own wrongs and turn to good/nonevil.

[HiddenTrack]

V would be interesting... the Elves and the Elven Gods really haven't been explored much, so it feels like they have to come into things for this final book in some capacity. I'm also still not totally convinced that "I...I must succeed" are Vs right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Maybe they'll end up with ultimate arcane power (i.e. actually godhood) with some different words?

[dancrilis]

V would be interesting... the Elves and the Elven Gods really haven't been explored much, so it feels like they have to come into things for this final book in some capacity. I'm also still not totally convinced that "I...I must succeed" are Vs right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Maybe they'll end up with ultimate arcane power (i.e. actually godhood) with some different words?

I think you might be mistaking divine power for arcane power.

[Ariko]

V would be interesting... the Elves and the Elven Gods really haven't been explored much, so it feels like they have to come into things for this final book in some capacity. I'm also still not totally convinced that "I...I must succeed" are Vs right four words at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Maybe they'll end up with ultimate arcane power (i.e. actually godhood) with some different words?

The Giant has confirmed the 4 words was the fulfillment of the prophesy.

[Emanick]

It won't happen, but it would crack me up if Roy somehow became a god (god of fighters?), given his utter lack of regard for divinity in general.

It's even somewhat plausible (using in-universe logic), since leading the team that saves the multiverse isn't a bad springboard to global fame. If everything works out for the best, he could plausibly parley that victory into a global cult following. His fantasy does involve a future where he seems to constantly get requests for autographs, so he might not mind that.

It shouldn't bother me, I know, but I can't believe Elan STILL worships a hand-puppet rather than me.