More Purple Gods?

[Fyraltari]

Shame that Redcloak doesn't get power from the Northern, Southern, and Western gods, then.

Indeed, so what do you think Thor's plan is exactly if the gods can't act on the mortal plane? Have Redcloak cast a one-essence spell and hope that stops the three-essence Snarl?

Thor is the god of lightning. His casting lightning is hardly surprising.
[...]
ThorHel is the god of lightningdisease. HisHer casting lightningdisease is hardly surprising.

I fail to see how that adresses any of what I've said. The gods are able to act on the material plane.
Also you ignored the part where I mentionned rebuilding the world as another proof of them not needing Clerics.

She could, since the domain accords would be broken, which means any god could act in any way, which would probably destroy the world, in the best case scenario (worst case would be a new snarl).

She'd be allowed to. She always have had the power to, she just doesn't because she fears retribution if she did. The gods can act without their Clerics they mostly don't because their peers would object. Do you think any god would object to resealing the Rifts?

The Dark One would most likely strenuously object, to the point of doing whatever he wanted to the world since the other gods are also, and we're back to best-case-destroyed territory. Like, nothing we've seen suggests The Dark One is the "welp, that didn't work, let me just mope around a bit for a few millennia" kind of guy.

Nothing we've seen has shown the Dark One to be suicidal either. Freaking Fenrir abides by the rules and he finds apocalypses to be enjoyable.

I didn't say it wouldn't be a perfect plan. I said it would be an especially monumentally bad plan. I see no reason to change my mind on that.

So, again, what do you think the plan is? And why did Thor tell Durkon about needind a 9th level spell from Redclaok rather than needing him to talk to The dark One?

[Peelee]

Indeed, so what do you think Thor's plan is exactly if the gods can't act on the mortal plane? Have Redcloak cast a one-essence spell and hope that stops the three-essence Snarl?

Don't know. But having an Eastern and Southern cleric travel to the north pole seems significantly easier, while having the benefit of not cheesing off the one person who they're relying on to stop the eternal destruction of the world.

I fail to see how that adresses any of what I've said. The gods are able to act on the material plane.

Yes, in specific and limited scopes. They are not free to do whatever they please outside of those specific and limited scopes, which is what you're suggesting.

Also you ignored the part where I mentionned rebuilding the world as another proof of them not needing Clerics.

Because that's irrelevant. There is no material plane while they're building it, and they agree on terms as they build it. There are no clerics they can use at that time. It's like saying "nobody is allowed to go into the third bathroom in the house we're making". That's all well and good, but there's an obvious exception for the people who have to build the third bathroom, which ends once it's finished being built.

She'd be allowed to. She always have had the power to, she just doesn't because she fears retribution if she did. The gods can act without their Clerics they mostly don't because their peers would object. Do you think any god would object to resealing the Rifts?

She'd be allowed to because it would be retribution on Thor (and every other god would be allowed to do whatever because it would be retribution). The Dark One would also have retribution if they pulled that on him, and that retribution would most likely be destroying the world (or mess up enough of it that destroying it and starting anew would be a better alternative anyway). And, again, he could create a new Snarl if they fight him on it. Backstabbing The Dark One is a terrible idea in every possible way. It creates more problems than it solves.

Nothing we've seen has shown the Dark One to be suicidal either. Freaking Fenrir abides by the rules and he finds apocalypses to be enjoyable.

The Dark One clearly believes he can last until the next world, so he doesn't need to be suicidal.

So, again, what do you think the plan is? And why did Thor tell Durkon about needind a 9th level spell from Redclaok rather than needing him to talk to The dark One?

I think the plan is "convince the Dark One to work with us". Or, at the very least, I think the plan is absolutely not "betray 'The Dark One, who largely exists because he was betrayed, and hope everything works out fine this time!" Best case scenario, that's repeating the exact same mistake and expecting a different outcome. Worst case scenario, that is the plan and it works and the entire thematic element of "maybe we shouldn't be terrible to goblins" is massively undercut and the story has no real moral other than "be a jerk, sometimes it works!"

[dancrilis]

... the story has no real moral other than "be a jerk, sometimes it works!"

I don't do signatures but if I did ...

[Peelee]

I don't do signatures but if I did ...

Not gonna lie, I was proud of the rhyme.

[Jasdoif]

Indeed, so what do you think Thor's plan is exactly if the gods can't act on the mortal plane? Have Redcloak cast a one-essence spell and hope that stops the three-essence Snarl?

I would guess the gods won't act on the rifts the mortal plane for the same reason they haven't simply created new Gates, whatever that reason may be. (My largely unsubstantiated theory is that the four-essence Snarl reacts to the magnitude of the gods' power, and one of them acting directly on the rift all but guarantees the Snarl will rush through the opening before they can accomplish anything)

So far, I think the most information we have is that Thor will explain to Durkon a ritual that calls for Redcloak to contribute a 9th-level slot; it's unclear what the rest of it entails...especially since the entire world is made of three other essences already. If I were to guess...since the Gate's spell is distinct from the physical Gate, and since the post-Gate rifts don't have immediate Snarl escapades; it's possible the spells are still in place, and the ritual augments them so they function again, and better than they ever could with a physical three-essence Gate. But that's just a guess that sounds good.

[littlebum2002]

You and I have very different conceptions of what ‘a better solution’ would entail. Religiously mandated genocide is not part of mine.

Two problems:

1. That's liable to get them right back where they started, with the new god being super-uncooperative because they have a huge chip on their shoulder from how the mortals from whom they arose were screwed over by design from the world's planning stages. While they MIGHT do better by letting them in on the secret of the Snarl sooner than they did The Dark One, there are enough gods unwilling to be the first to extend the olive branch (eg Tyr) that they might not get the chance. So we're back to "only god with fourth quddity is hostile and impossible to safely communicate with."
2. Everything else that's horribly wrong with deliberately setting up a people specifically to be the targets of attempted genocide in the hopes that they'll retaliate in kind.

Well, I meant it's a "good" solution in the "will accomplish their goals" definition, not in the "morally acceptable" definition. It's on par with "get all the dwarves to start a civil war in the next 24 hours".

However, I would assume that the deities did decide to follow the morally objectionable plan of creating species just for the ability to oppress them and hope that their oppression inspires one member to rise up and become a deity, they would learn from their mistakes and try their hardest to get on the new deities' good side the second he got to the afterlife.

[Fyraltari]

Don't know. But having an Eastern and Southern cleric travel to the north pole seems significantly easier, while having the benefit of not cheesing off the one person who they're relying on to stop the eternal destruction of the world.

They can't. The rules expressely forbids them from telling mortals about the Snarl unless they already know. No Southern or Western cleric knows about the Snarl. And the two Northern clerics who do aren't powerful enough to contribute.
Also there has not been Eastern clerics for a while now.

Yes, in specific and limited scopes. They are not free to do whatever they please outside of those specific and limited scopes, which is what you're suggesting.

Do you really think any god would object to them locking up the Snarl for millenia?

Because that's irrelevant. There is no material plane while they're building it, and they agree on terms as they build it. There are no clerics they can use at that time. It's like saying "nobody is allowed to go into the third bathroom in the house we're making". That's all well and good, but there's an obvious exception for the people who have to build the third bathroom, which ends once it's finished being built.

Aren't they bulding a planet inside the Material Plane? I know D&D cosmology is wonky but I feel that if the snarl destroyed the plane it was in it'd kill itself in the process.

She'd be allowed to because it would be retribution on Thor (and every other god would be allowed to do whatever because it would be retribution).

So you agree that they have the capacity to act and that the only issue would be wether the other gods would object?

The Dark One would also have retribution if they pulled that on him, and that retribution would most likely be destroying the world (or mess up enough of it that destroying it and starting anew would be a better alternative anyway). And, again, he could create a new Snarl if they fight him on it. Backstabbing The Dark One is a terrible idea in every possible way. It creates more problems than it solves.

The Dark One clearly believes he can last until the next world, so he doesn't need to be suicidal.

TDO is not part of the Gods agreement. If he starts attacking the Material Plane in retribution to what the others have done, he can' expect the other gods to side with him against the rule-breaker. In fact he can expect them to side with their kin against him. In anay case, he knows that direct attack would most likely result in a new Snarl and so his own destruction. Therefore, him atatcking in repsonse to the thwarting of his plan, like you propose, would be suicidal.

I think the plan is "convince the Dark One to work with us". Or, at the very least, I think the plan is absolutely not "betray 'The Dark One, who largely exists because he was betrayed, and hope everything works out fine this time!" Best case scenario, that's repeating the exact same mistake and expecting a different outcome. Worst case scenario, that is the plan and it works and the entire thematic element of "maybe we shouldn't be terrible to goblins" is massively undercut and the story has no real moral other than "be a jerk, sometimes it works!"

Did you miss the part where I said I expected Thor's plan to fail or are you ignoring it? Because, yes I do think the end point of the story will be peaceful resolution between Team Violet and the rest of the gods/world. I just disagree with the proposition that Thor's planis to negotiate with the Dark One right now, when he thinks he doesn't need too and is melting the ambassadors he receives. You can't negotiate with someoen who doesn't think they have anything to lose.

I would guess the gods won't act on the rifts the mortal plane for the same reason they haven't simply created new Gates, whatever that reason may be. (My largely unsubstantiated theory is that the four-essence Snarl reacts to the magnitude of the gods' power, and one of them acting directly on the rift all but guarantees the Snarl will rush through the opening before they can accomplish anything)

So far, I think the most information we have is that Thor will explain to Durkon a ritual that calls for Redcloak to contribute a 9th-level slot; it's unclear what the rest of it entails...especially since the entire world is made of three other essences already. If I were to guess...since the Gate's spell is distinct from the physical Gate, and since the post-Gate rifts don't have immediate Snarl escapades; it's possible the spells are still in place, and the ritual augments them so they function again, and better than they ever could with a physical three-essence Gate. But that's just a guess that sounds good.

The gods don't act of the Rifts because without a fourth quiddity that would be doomed to fail anyway.

[Jasdoif]

The gods don't act of the Rifts because without a fourth quiddity that would be doomed to fail anyway.

I dunno...they saw the Gates do the job until someone started destroying them, and "steal copy the puny mortal magic while we wait to see if they screw up the last of their Gates" didn't even come up at the Godsmoot; so I think there's some other/additional reason.

[Peelee]

They can't. The rules expressely forbids them from telling mortals about the Snarl unless they already know. No Southern or Western cleric knows about the Snarl. And the two Northern clerics who do aren't powerful enough to contribute.

I'm actually going to save this one for last.

Do you really think any god would object to them locking up the Snarl for millenia?

....yes. The Dark One. Since, ya know, his entire plan rests on having control of where the Snarl can escape, and if he does not have that control he has no bargaining chips, to the best of his knowledge. Making a new world would be infinitely better than just sitting on the sidelines of the existing world, since he wouldn't know he had any cards left to play.

Aren't they bulding a planet inside the Material Plane? I know D&D cosmology is wonky but I feel that if the snarl destroyed the plane it was in it'd kill itself in the process.

Yeah, but if the Material Plane is empty, there's no point in not being able to act there. It doesn't make a difference until they build the world.

So you agree that they have the capacity to act and that the only issue would be wether the other gods would object?

Of course they have the capacity (see the saved-for-later part).

TDO is not part of the Gods agreement. If he starts attacking the Material Plane in retribution to what the others have done, he can' expect the other gods to side with him against the rule-breaker. In fact he can expect them to side with their kin against him. In anay case, he knows that direct attack would most likely result in a new Snarl and so his own destruction. Therefore, him atatcking in repsonse to the thwarting of his plan, like you propose, would be suicidal.

It's irrelevant that he's not part of the agreement, since he abides by it anyway. And the fact that they know about the Snarl means that, even if a new one arose, they would not be taken by surprise and would likely escape like they did before (and, in theory, many times since, given what we heard at the Godsmoot). There would just be two snarls instead of one, which would be a big problem, but would not be suicide. Further, that's like saying Tsukiko's mistakes were suicide, or Miko's mistakes were suicide, or anyone who died as the result of their own actions' mistakes were suicide; characters can be wrong, or underestimate the danger to them, and suffer the consequences, but that does not amount to suicide.

Did you miss the part where I said I expected Thor's plan to fail

Yes. I still do not like it because it requires Thor to act like an absolute ******* for no reason.

The gods don't act of the Rifts because without a fourth quiddity that would be doomed to fail anyway.

True. See the saved-for-later quote!

They can't. The rules expressely forbids them from telling mortals about the Snarl unless they already know. No Southern or Western cleric knows about the Snarl. And the two Northern clerics who do aren't powerful enough to contribute.

So does having the capacity to do it matter, or does it not matter?

And, more seriously, something occurred to me - the Order of the Scribble was able to seal the rifts despite not having access to three divine quiddities - they had Dorukan and Lirian, only two (and Dorukan's wasn't divine in any event). And yet the Gates are still held up as if they are three-quiddity seals. So, we can surmise from this (or, at least, I can) the creation of the seals are, in fact, already three-quiddity, which makes sense; Durkon is already 3Q, so why would his magic not also be? So it seems as if they already have access to all three in Durkon (or Vaarsuvius, if you want a non-divine source), and they only need the fourth to complete it. Redcloak is the sole person they need, and so we are left with "how to convince Redcloak" as the problem. To which, I say again, effectively saying "hey, that god you served for your entire life, who you have dedicated everything to? Yeah, forget that guy, do this instead!" would be a patently ridiculous approach to anyone who knew anything at all about Redcloak, much less a god. Elan would be able to outsmart Thor if that was Thor's plan.

[Kaed]

I've always read the color of the quiddity of specific pantheons to not just be arbitrary differences in their color aura but representative of an overarching dynamic of how the pantheon operates. You do not see much of the culture of the Northern Pantheon's land that is not tainted by a divine bargain requiring all souls belong to one diety*, but we see extensive signs of how the other two operate.

(*some restrictions apply)

The Southern Pantheon seems to be epitomized in Azure City. Azure City is all but the capital of the Southern Pantheon's land, and they endorse a government based on stratified, tradition-bound class systems. Even their motif of being Chinese zodiac animals hearkens back to the classical cultural dynamic of that country's government. Such a structured society has tangible benefits, but it cannot exist without darker downsides For instance, I would not have been surprised if Kabuto considered Rat to be his patron deity, and the reason that Rat specifically is so upset with TDO about the conquering of Azure City is not because of the effect it had on the people, but because it represented a loss of all the fun political intrigue he had been feeding for decades or centuries. The rest of the Southern Pantheon seemingly tolerated the political backstabbing, silencing world-destroying information from the masses, and systematic oppression and sometimes genocide of other cultures (i.e. goblinoids). Order and Tradition seem to be the values that guide them. This even fits with the cool blue shade of their quiddity, which is a color often used to represent law and order.

The Eastern Pantheon, by contrast, seems to revel in a chaotic mess of competing interests all fighting over livable land. We only see a few gods represented, but their pantheon is expansive and the gods seem to embody deep fundamental concepts such as Nergal, god of Destruction and Death, whose high cleric dreamed of a day when hundreds ritualistically would be sacrificed in the name of his god every daym and Tiamat, a goddess who not only embodies chromatic dragons, but also the fundamental concept of long-spanning plans for power. Even the Elves, who quarantine themselves within the lush forests at the north of the continent, utilize their relatively Utopian existence while excluding the other races with powerful magic that prevents them from having to share their resources with the dirty non-elves. The Eastern pantheon seems to feel that Strength and Control are the most important things. This fits with their color of Quiddity, which is red, a color often given connotations of passion or rage.

In their world, the fittest survive and those who do not were not worthy to keep their power. Social order is of tertiary importance to them at best, and this can create world where tyrants are easily overthrown and freedom and transition of power is much more prevalent than in more orderly societies like the Southern Gods lands. Naturally, there are downsides to this too - with no stability or lasting tradition to build a foundation upon, there is no trust in society or even among the pantheon themselves. One tyrant is easily exchanged for another, and tyrant types are the most desirous of overthrowing the current one. Tiamat was the only one who witnessed the rise of TDO, but because of how all the deities are so deeply entrenched in their power struggles, they cannot perceive this information of a new quiddity as anything but another one of Tiamat's ploys for power.

Even their votes in the Godsmoot represent these ideologies. The Eastern Pantheon cannot tolerate the idea of their power or lives being threatened by the Snarl, and they are all too willing to destroy the world and let it be remade so they can keep their power intact. By contrast, the Southern Pantheon places a high value in what they have created and is reluctant to throw it away until they have absolutely no choice.

That being said, I cannot give much of an analysis on the Northern Gods culture. We only see a few aspects of it, and the only one that isn't a series of gags about generic location names (Somewhere, Anywhere, Someplace Else, etc.) is the Dwarven Homeland, which operates on its own special rules due to the gods screwing them over.

However, TDO has tapped into a unique form of power that is separate from all the rest. What does purple quddity represent? Well, here's my theory: Purple represents the ideological standpoint of Justice Above All. Look at how The Dark One lived his life - he was born and organized all of goblinkind under one banner, and used that power to conquer the other nations who were oppressing them. He had hypothetical power to execute all of the non-goblin leaders and take over the world, but what did he do? He attempted to negotiate a better life for his people. He sought not Order or Power, but Justice. And then he was killed, because the rulers who opposed him did not view him or his people as people.

But Justice is a loaded ideological concept. It's a nice word that people like to hear, but flip over the coin to it's darker side and you find Vengeance. And he ascended as his people took bloody vengeance upon the human nations for this latest injustice against their leader and their nation. Since then, TDO has not strayed from that ideological path of trying to seek justice and a better life for his people, he just stopped believing it was possible to do it via peaceful negotiations anymore. He set his clerics down the path of seizing the power to hold the gods themselves hostage, by any means necessary, including working working with unsavory psychotic liches and necrophiliac mages who do not share his goals, but can be manipulated or murdered as needed to achieve Justice.

"For the greater good." is extremely easy to use as a justification for any act imaginable, no matter how awful. When Redcloak looks into the mirror and sees his brother (whom he murdered in service of The Plan, for those who didn't read SoD) and tells him/himself "it will be all worth it, you'll see." you can see that has deeply internalized his gods teachings.

I don't think it's possible for another purple quiddity god to arise in the current circumstances. There is simply not enough unified purpose behind a single ideal embodied in a single individual. Redcloak operates in the shadows and with the most awful villains because his god has told him that being open about his true motives just means that the rest of the world, who is out to oppress their people, will walk all over him if he does. No one will worship him, because most goblinoids don't even know he exists. Jirix will not ascend, because he just represents a transient political face. He may be popular with his people, but he does not represent a unified ideological standpoint, just a nation's current face.

[RatElemental]

When it comes to the sealing ritual, the gates were constructed by only two people, one of whom was an arcane caster. That's two colors of divine energy at most, unless mortal spells are somehow more real than godly powers.

Since the entire material plane is made of 3 quidities Dorukan and Lirian probably didn't need to provide any at all, just the spells needed to shape them into a patch, not unlike using an iron to seal a hole in a shirt made of polymer fibers by heating and melting the existing material until it sticks together. What Redcloak would be doing is probably more akin to adding a new ingredient while the fabric is still semi-solid to make it even more resistant to tearing.

[Peelee]

When it comes to the sealing ritual, the gates were constructed by only two people, one of whom was an arcane caster. That's two colors of divine energy at most, unless mortal spells are somehow more real than godly powers.

I contend that the magic mortals use was created by the gods, and thus are 3Q just as the mortals themselves, are.

[Jasdoif]

I contend that the magic mortals use was created by the gods, and thus are 3Q just as the mortals themselves, are.

Do you mean arcane magic, specifically? The whole thing hinges on Redcloak's divine magic having the same quiddity as his deity.

[woweedd]

Do you mean arcane magic, specifically? The whole thing hinges on Redcloak's divine magic having the same quiddity as his deity.

I assume so. Although, now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the different colors of magic in OOTS-earth were something the Gods came up with after looking at their own Quiddities. Nothing metaphysically significant about the colouration, but the choice to have them be colored at all was inspired by that fact.

[RatElemental]

I contend that the magic mortals use was created by the gods, and thus are 3Q just as the mortals themselves, are.

But the things Thor creates by himself are little better than if a mortal wizard had done the same thing. He might have been referring specifically to illusions, maybe, but I seriously doubt wizards are wielding all the essences instead of just manipulating all the essence that happens to already make up everything around them.

[Peelee]

But the things Thor creates by himself are little better than if a mortal wizard had done the same thing. He might have been referring specifically to illusions, maybe, but I seriously doubt wizards are wielding all the essences instead of just manipulating all the essence that happens to already make up everything around them.

Yes, and I find that phrasing interesting. "Little better than if made by a wizard." Not "just as a wizard does," or "like how a wizard's magic works." Two mortal casters of powered by different pantheons don't make any "more real" effects of they cast a spell together. Even Redcloak isn't casting "more real" spells, despite being a 3Q mortal powered by a 4thQ god.

The essence that happens to already make up everything around them is all three essences. All mortals, all of creation is made by all three essences. There is no line across the continental divide of the North and South lands where the yellow essence makes up everything to a point and then the blue essence makes up everything beyond that point. Their magic is as real as their swords, or their bodies, or anything else in the world, which is all three. According to Thor, Redcloak needs to channel his god's quiddity, only a tiny drop, which he equates to a 9th level spell. By Thor's standards, that's nothing. By any mortal's standards, that's a lofty feat, but doable for Redcloak. So yes, I posit that all mortal magic, arcane and divine, is made up of all three quiddities (like the entire rest of creation), and they don't need clerics from the other lands to come in and help - they just need Redcloak and The Dark One on board to supply the fourth essence.

[mjasghar]

One thing that has always puzzled me
The Snarl is made from 4 quiddities, is it not? So how can a world created by 3 pantheons hold it at all? Are the strands from the old Eastern pantheon lying about randomly spinning or are the others able to use them?

[Grey Watcher]

One thing that has always puzzled me
The Snarl is made from 4 quiddities, is it not? So how can a world created by 3 pantheons hold it at all? Are the strands from the old Eastern pantheon lying about randomly spinning or are the others able to use them?

Same way a one quiddity god can give a magic school bus piggy back ride to three-quddity souls. And the same way that any given god could theoretically stomp any given mortal. Quddity isn't the only measure of strength. The Snarl can cut through three quddity reality, but it might be less "hot knife through butter" and more "sawing through a thick tree trunk". No question that the saw will definitely cut through the wood, but it's not exactly effortless.

Now a four quddity snarl vs. a one quddity god, THAT'S more like the proverbial hot knife glaive through butter ochre jelly.

[hroþila]

The new worlds use the same threads of reality that made up the first world. At least according to the Sapphire Guard lore. It might not be 100% accurate but chances are this detail is.

[Dion]

It may be true that Thor’s plan could work without TDO’s cooperation.

But if Durkon is trying to convince Redcloak to seal the rifts without TDO’s permission, that’s going to be very difficult to sell.

For starters, Redcloak is looking at a significantly worse fate than Miko if he does something that draws his god’s wrath. He’s going to immediately find himself as Nocloak, the ancient goblin 19th level cleric of a god that rejected him. And after his death (probably immediately of old age), I’m sure TDO will arrange many visits for him in the after life, but Windstriker wont be one of them.

Durkon better really persuasive here if that’s his plan.

[Peelee]

It may be true that Thor’s plan could work without TDO’s cooperation.

But if Durkon is trying to convince Redcloak to seal the rifts without TDO’s permission, that’s going to be very difficult to sell.

For starters, Redcloak is looking at a significantly worse fate than Miko if he does something that draws his god’s wrath. He’s going to immediately find himself as Nocloak, the ancient goblin 19th level cleric of a god that rejected him. And after his death (probably immediately of old age), I’m sure TDO will arrange many visits for him in the after life, but Windstriker wont be one of them.

Durkon better really persuasive here if that’s his plan.

19th level?

[dancrilis]

19th level?

Not confirmed but not unreasonable if Xykon is getting XP then things need to be at least CR 16 (likely higher).

If Xykon, Redcloak, The Monster in the Darkness, Oona, Greyview each count seperately (and it seems likely that Greyview does not) then each CR 16 creature would give Redcloak 680 XP 25 of them takes him to level 18 and another 34 takes him to level 19 - and that ignores everything that Xykon gets nothing for were Redcloak might still be (or anything above CR 16).

If I have things right.

On the topic of other colour Gods - I have to wonder if Xykon might be looking at becoming one probably wouldn't be a bad move for him.

[Jasdoif]

Not confirmed but not unreasonable if Xykon is getting XP then things need to be at least CR 16 (likely higher).

You may be confusing the lich template's CR adjustment of +2 and its level adjustment of +4. If Xykon is level 21, then he's ECL 25 and he doesn't get a standard experience reward for CRs under 18; and he's probably higher than level 21.

[dancrilis]

You may be confusing the lich template's CR adjustment of +2 and its level adjustment of +4. If Xykon is level 21, then he's ECL 25 and he doesn't get a standard experience reward for CRs under 18; and he's probably higher than level 21.

I think I might need to give up on experience tables - I seem to get them backwards frequently on CR and LA.

Either way that puts Redcloak at even better odds of being higher then level 17 (especially if Xykon is higher then level 21 which I agree seems likely), with only 12 encounters needed to hit level 18 (assuming he got no XP at level 17 before he started) and only another 17 to hit level 19 (again unless me figures are wrong ... again).

[Peelee]

You may be confusing the lich template's CR adjustment of +2 and its level adjustment of +4. If Xykon is level 21, then he's ECL 25 and he doesn't get a standard experience reward for CRs under 18; and he's probably higher than level 21.

Spoiler: No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus content

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I don't know if standard XP reward rules are being followed, given Shelby's story.

[Dion]

19th level?

He’ll get a huge role playing XP boost for accepting Banjo as his new god

[Jasdoif]

I think I might need to give up on experience tables - I seem to get them backwards frequently on CR and LA.

Either way that puts Redcloak at even better odds of being higher then level 17 (especially if Xykon is higher then level 21 which I agree seems likely), with only 12 encounters needed to hit level 18 (assuming he got no XP at level 17 before he started) and only another 17 to hit level 19 (again unless me figures are wrong ... again).

It really depends on a lot of things; like what Xykon's actual level is, how distributed the challenge ratings of creatures we haven't seen are, what level Oona and Greyview are to be injured but not killed (as a sign of the distribution of challenge ratings)....

Spoiler: No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus content

Show

I don't know if standard XP reward rules are being followed, given Shelby's story.

Maybe he was wrong?

Actually, as was pointed out to me when this came up a while ago, 3.0 used the average party level instead of each individual's ECL to determine experience awards, and some DMs never noticed that changed in 3.5 and continued doing it the 3.0 way...but if that's what happening here, then Redcloak and Xykon get the same number of experience points, which means Redcloak only gains experience when Xykon gains experience, which would be eliminating most of the opportunities for Redcloak to be gaining experience at all.

[dancrilis]

It really depends on a lot of things; like what Xykon's actual level is, how distributed the challenge ratings of creatures we haven't seen are, what level Oona and Greyview are to be injured but not killed (as a sign of the distribution of challenge ratings)....

Other then using Xykon as a baseline for the experience that Redcloak might get does Xykon's (or Oona's or Greyviews for that matter) actual level matter to how much XP Redcloak gets?

To take an odd party as an example it seems to me from page 36 DMG that if PC1 is level 30, PC2 is Level 17, PC3 and PC4 and the PC5 are level 5 and the party beats a single CR 13 creature that:
PC1 : 0XP (CR to low).
PC3 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC4 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC5 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC2 : 255 XP (1275 XP for CR 13 divided by 5 for the number of people in the party).

Assuming of course those rules are in affect.

[Jasdoif]

Other then using Xykon as a baseline for the experience that Redcloak might get does Xykon's (or Oona's or Greyviews for that matter) actual level matter to how much XP Redcloak gets?

No.

Since you mentioned this sort of thing earlier: If Greyview happens to be Oona's cohort through the Leadership feat or something similar, that would matter; in that case, Greyview doesn't count as one of people involved for determining the divisor on the XP award, and instead gets a separate XP award (the amount of Oona's standard XP award multiplied by the ratio of Greyview's level to Oona's level).

To take an odd party as an example it seems to me from page 36 DMG that if PC1 is level 30, PC2 is Level 17, PC3 and PC4 and the PC5 are level 5 and the party beats a single CR 13 creature that:
PC1 : 0XP (CR to low).
PC3 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC4 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC5 : 0XP (CR to high).
PC2 : 255 XP (1275 XP for CR 13 divided by 5 for the number of people in the party).

Assuming of course those rules are in affect.

Technically correct, but with a level gap that wide, the DM would probably be in the position of questioning what "take part in the encounter" actually entails; which may negate PC2's involvement or increase PC2's award based on the absence of other PCs' involvement. (If nothing else, it'd be difficult for PC1 to actually participate without one-shotting the thing)

[dancrilis]

Technically correct

Huzzah.