Fixing Vow of Poverty

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
Here's a few examples of what I mean by fixes on this forum....

Some of these are pretty dense to dig through, but Talya’s list of additional [Exalted] feats is worth a look.

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[Psyren]

I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

With that said, a Vow of Poverty character should be playable - without warping/nerfing every encounter to accommodate them. Specifically I think the Vow should ensure at least the following:

• All of the Big Six must be accounted for - resistance to saves, the four boosts to armor (armor/enhancement, natural, deflection, and possibly shield), enhancement to weapons, and physical+mental enhancements.
• Some utility - particularly baseline things like a way to fly and traverse water since you can't get those from items.
• Ways to deal with hard-hitting debuffs (whether immunity, recovery, or just resistance.) These include debilitating/long-lasting things like negative levels, poison, and disease.
• Some ability to choose certain benefits day-to-day so that not every VoP member of {class} feels identical.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

Agreed completely.

Originally Posted by Psyren
Some utility - particularly baseline things like a way to fly and traverse water since you can't get those from items.

On this point, there’s an oracle revelation for the Heavens mystery which allows you to walk several inches above surfaces, with liquid water explicitly included. It also gives fly at 10th level. Adapting this to VoP could address these particular issues.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

Um... You're burning two feats to be less than a normal character.

I don't think the math adds up on that even a little bit.

[Psyren]

Um... You're burning two feats to be less than a normal character.

I don't think the math adds up on that even a little bit.

If you wanted to be a "normal character" you shouldn't be taking a sacred vow to begin with. The whole point of the vows is for the game to be a little harder than "normal."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you wanted to be a "normal character" you shouldn't be taking a sacred vow to begin with. The whole point of the vows is for the game to be a little harder than "normal."

Then make VoP a flaw, not a feat. Especially a feat with another useless feat as a prerequisite.

[Tvtyrant]

If you wanted to be a "normal character" you shouldn't be taking a sacred vow to begin with. The whole point of the vows is for the game to be a little harder than "normal."

I thought it was to enable you to play without being a magical christmas tree. If I expend two of my feats to accomplish something I would prefer it not also cripple my other resources, and as I said earlier WBL is equal to a low tier class. If I play a VoP Monk I have spent two feats to remove the majority of my playable abilities.

[NigelWalmsley]

I don't think a VoP character should be totally equivalent to one that has full WBL. The whole point of it is that you're making a sacrifice, not "I want the exact same character without having to track wealth."

The point of it is to not have material possessions. There's this pernicious notion among some people that Vow of Poverty is "supposed" to make you worse. It's not, that's not the point. The point is to let you fulfill the fantasy of being an ascetic. The fact that, in the real world, ascetics are less effective in combat (or whatever other field of endeavor) is besides the point, because in the real world magic isn't a good way of achieving your goals either.

[Zanos]

I thought it was to enable you to play without being a magical christmas tree. If I expend two of my feats to accomplish something I would prefer it not also cripple my other resources, and as I said earlier WBL is equal to a low tier class. If I play a VoP Monk I have spent two feats to remove the majority of my playable abilities.

No, VoP enables a very specific character archetype, which explicitly involves being exalted and frequently donating to charity. If it was a general feat to allow you to function without gear, it wouldn't be hard locked into archetypes that are super, super good.

[Psyren]

Then make VoP a flaw, not a feat. Especially a feat with another useless feat as a prerequisite.

For the record, I would remove the Sacred Vow prerequisite as it doesn't add anything meaningful to the concept of taking a vow.

I thought it was to enable you to play without being a magical christmas tree.

No, that's what an alternate wealth system like ABP or Grod's is for. You don't need a vow or alignment restriction to do that.

No, VoP enables a very specific character archetype, which explicitly involves being exalted and frequently donating to charity. If it was a general feat to allow you to function without gear, it wouldn't be hard locked into archetypes that are super, super good.

This.

[NigelWalmsley]

No, VoP enables a very specific character archetype, which explicitly involves being exalted and frequently donating to charity. If it was a general feat to allow you to function without gear, it wouldn't be hard locked into archetypes that are super, super good.

Yes, but no part of that archetype is "and also your character is mechanically worse". The point is to allow you to do that while still being effective. It's like saying that it's okay that the Monk sucks, because fighting unarmed actually is less effective. That's not the point. It's a fantasy game, no one's fantasy is "being bad".

[Psyren]

Yes, but no part of that archetype is "and also your character is mechanically worse". The point is to allow you to do that while still being effective. It's like saying that it's okay that the Monk sucks, because fighting unarmed actually is less effective. That's not the point. It's a fantasy game, no one's fantasy is "being bad".

"Still effective" != "As effective as a character with wealth."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Still effective" != "As effective as a character with wealth."

"And spend two whole feats to do it."

[Psyren]

"And spend two whole feats to do it."

For the record, I would remove the Sacred Vow prerequisite as it doesn't add anything meaningful to the concept of taking a vow.

10 characters

[Bohandas]

I just had a thought. Why not change it from a feat, to a trait. It already works more like a trait anyway

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I just had a thought. Why not change it from a feat, to a trait. It already works more like a trait anyway

That's traitorous talk, that is.

[NigelWalmsley]

"Still effective" != "As effective as a character with wealth."

That's not an argument for your position. "They can only suck a little bit" is not a reason the option needs to suck. There's no reason this particular option needs to suck. The Monk does something we'd expect to make you less effective (fighting unarmed), and no one thinks the Monk is supposed to suck. The Paladin follows a code of honor that demands personal sacrifice, and no one thinks the Paladin is supposed to suck. There's simply no defensible reason for Vow of Poverty to make your character worse instead of just different. There's no other character concept we punish people for having.

[Malanorea]

Drolyt's fix is my favorite. I've had it bookmarked for years, and I often ask for it when I play unarmed/natural attack characters.

[Morphic tide]

To actually somewhat substantiate my claim on Vow of Poverty exceeding WBL for overall bonuses provided, at level 20 you have the +8 ability score bonus which would be 64,000 GP by the DMG guidelines that just give the pattern of the existing items, then +6 is 36,000 GP, +4 is 16,000 GP, and +2 is 2,000 GP. So far, 118,000 GP, little over 1/7th WBL. Then there's the +5 weapon at 50,000 GP, the +10 Armor bonus is most directly compared to a theoretical raw +6 Mithral Chain Shirt which would be 37,100 GP, with these two bringing the total to 205,100 GP.

The +3 Deflection is 18,000 GP while the +2 Natural Armor is 8,000 GP, and the 15 Energy Resistance is a bit annoying because it stops at 15 while the armor scales in increments of 10, but even at 10 it's 90,000 GP because it's five types, and the +3 Resistance is 9,000 GP, while DR/Evil only shows up at 5 for 76,000 GP on the Mantle of Faith. Now the total for rounding down on awkward bonuses is at 436,100 GP, nearing half of total WBL. True Seeing's nearest in the SRD is the Gem of Seeing at 75,000 GP, Sustenance can be mimicked with the 4,000 GP Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, and Greater Sustenance is most directly compared to the 18,000 GP Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, bringing the total to 503,100 GP.

Finally, a continuous item of Freedom of Movement is 84,000 GP, the Ring of Regeneration is 90,000 GP, and the weirdly specific lie enabling doesn't really have a counterpart I can price, giving a total significantly-lowballed GP value of 677,100 GP against the 760,000 GP of ECL 20 WBL, meaning the 10 Exalted feats and what I rounded down need to provide the value of 82,900 GP to break even, which is rather likely given the DR/Evil. If we make all those things slotless because of some odd-ball spells, Incarnum, and other such things, then VoP is rather obviously an absurd premium. And at level 19, WBL comes down to 580,000 while of what I've enumerated prices for, VoP only loses 18,000 GP from ticking down to +4 on the weapon bonus (as I "rounded down" the ER/15 to the regular X Resistance qualities), meaning it's 79,100 GP ahead in terms of raw value, before the now-9 bonus feats and staggering cost of DR/Evil.

So again, the issue is that they're the wrong bonuses, not that you get seriously less value of them.

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I very much think Vow of Poverty itself ought to remain very basic in its offerings. For having the bonus feats cover the more exotic properties, I suggest a "hub and spoke" or proper tree direction, having it so that more normal characters would generally only be capable of getting one exotic effect group due to prerequisite feats, while the bonus feats Vow of Poverty provides give vastly more because of those prerequisite feats counting for a fairly wide variety of later effects.

So while a normal character trying to get flight and self-healing would have to sacrifice basically every feat to do it, an Ascetic could grab both of those to fill the two primary gaps and still have room for the offensive leverage on the flight to cover their damage deficit, maneuverability improvements making them even more painful to deal with, alongside grabbing ability damage recovery, condition removal, and outright regeneration for total self-sufficiency, and generally because they have 10 extra feats, the entrance fee of 2-4 relatively basic feats before getting into the Big Deals is a mild roadblock where it's a crippling barrier to the "standard" character.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Malanorea
Drolyt's fix is my favorite. I've had it bookmarked for years, and I often ask for it when I play unarmed/natural attack characters.

Looking through Drolyt’s version, it looks like he’s made things easier with some simple changes to the wording.

It also looks like he’s giving Eidetic Spellcaster to wizards, with some extra spells learned—including double the usual number of new spells learned each level. That sounds like it would be an upgrade for a wizard.

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[PoeticallyPsyco]

After reading the thread, two of the big problems appear to be that there aren't enough (good) Exalted feats to take, and that the bonuses can't replicate the utility value of items. Seems like those two could fix each other. Homebrewing some Exalted feats to represent 'miraculous' abilities like walking on water/air could fix both the problems. Perhaps the [Wild] feats would be a good place to look for balance and inspiration; Blindsight, for instance, seems like a great one to refluff as an Exalted feat. This would also help differentiate VoP characters by the feats they take.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco
Homebrewing some Exalted feats to represent 'miraculous' abilities like walking on water/air could fix both the problems. Perhaps the [Wild] feats would be a good place to look for balance and inspiration; Blindsight, for instance, seems like a great one to refluff as an Exalted feat. This would also help differentiate VoP characters by the feats they take.

A good first step might be to consolidate some lists of homebrewed Exalted feats and select which ones could be useful.

As mentioned above, Mephibosheth has a list that leans on the ascetic flavor, and Talya has at least the beginnings of a list that's more generically celestial. Are there any other lists like these?

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[Calthropstu]

Allow magic tattoos to not count towards breaking the vow.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calthropstu
Allow magic tattoos to not count towards breaking the vow.

Is there a particular type that you meant? I think there are several different kinds of tattoos floating around.

[lord_khaine]

So again, the issue is that they're the wrong bonuses, not that you get seriously less value of them.

A solid analysis, thank you for providing it.

And its then very easy to debate if its even the wrong bonuses it gives.
Some of them are certainly very useful. Like the slotless armor bonus.

And some of the things that are missing is stuff that can be provided by party members.
Or by class features.

But i think its silly to call VoP directly cripling just because it does not cover all bases, for all classes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And its then very easy to debate if its even the wrong bonuses it gives.
Some of them are certainly very useful. Like the slotless armor bonus.

Is it useful to have a slotless armor bonus if it removes your ability to use item slots altogether, though?

[Morphic tide]

A solid analysis, thank you for providing it.

And its then very easy to debate if its even the wrong bonuses it gives.
Some of them are certainly very useful. Like the slotless armor bonus.

Well, due to being Vow of Poverty, the slotlessness only really matters for class features that care for item slots like Meldshaping or the Crown spells. For those situations, though, it does pretty much crack open the intended balance point, since you get to very freely go to town on whatever you please.

And some of the things that are missing is stuff that can be provided by party members.
Or by class features.

But i think its silly to call VoP directly cripling just because it does not cover all bases, for all classes.

And, as previously mentioned, I'm pretty sure the very major bases missed with regards to mobility and recovery are specifically because they can be handled by party members and class features. The Paladin doesn't really need healing if you give them those ability score bonuses, because their features turn Charisma and/or Wisdom into healing fairly directly, since they have Lay on Hands and get the Cure line, alongside the Charisma to saves reducing what they take. The Monk only needs permission to go vertical, any straight speed bonus makes them start zipping around quite stupidly, and the AC bonus on VoP being measured for wearing a chain shirt already makes their AC bloat a wee bit. As in "can make Pit Fiends miss 3/4ths of the time", before throwing in any allied caster buffs.

And if you are the caster, like a Monk 1/Paladin 2/Druid 17, well in that particular case you just grab Serenity and enjoy having astronomical AC and saves, alongside almost on pace item number bonuses that carry into your delayed-by-three-levels Wild Shape and ignore any dispel attempts.