Levitate+Mage Hand: A Poor Man's Telekinesis/Fly

[Nagog]

Howdy everybody!

So I have a friend who is trying his hand at Homebrew, and wanted clarification on the way the two spells in the topic interact with one another. Levitate allows the caster to freely control the elevation of the target (even if it's themselves), but lateral direction requires pushing off of something else. If the caster used Mage Hand, could they move themselves around, similar to the popular Gnome Reduce+Mage Hand flight, but slower?

Mage Hand states it cannot carry more than 10 pounds, but considering Levitate essentially makes you weightless, all you need is a push. Even 10 pounds of force in the right direction will get you or your target moving in the right direction, and with continued pressure could help them pick up speed.

[Man_Over_Game]

Howdy everybody!

So I have a friend who is trying his hand at Homebrew, and wanted clarification on the way the two spells in the topic interact with one another. Levitate allows the caster to freely control the elevation of the target (even if it's themselves), but lateral direction requires pushing off of something else. If the caster used Mage Hand, could they move themselves around, similar to the popular Gnome Reduce+Mage Hand flight, but slower?

Mage Hand states it cannot carry more than 10 pounds, but considering Levitate essentially makes you weightless, all you need is a push. Even 10 pounds of force in the right direction will get you or your target moving in the right direction, and with continued pressure could help them pick up speed.

I mean...probably?

Does that mean an Arcane Trickster flies at twice the speed?

I probably wouldn't rule it towards utilizing momentum, though. 5e isn't zoned for that. A "No Fly Zone", as it were.

[Christew]

Howdy everybody!

So I have a friend who is trying his hand at Homebrew, and wanted clarification on the way the two spells in the topic interact with one another. Levitate allows the caster to freely control the elevation of the target (even if it's themselves), but lateral direction requires pushing off of something else. If the caster used Mage Hand, could they move themselves around, similar to the popular Gnome Reduce+Mage Hand flight, but slower?

Mage Hand states it cannot carry more than 10 pounds, but considering Levitate essentially makes you weightless, all you need is a push. Even 10 pounds of force in the right direction will get you or your target moving in the right direction, and with continued pressure could help them pick up speed.

I don't see an issue with using Mage Hand to propel a Levitated creature/object. I probably wouldn't go for any real world physics stuff like acceleration, but as long as you stay within 30ft of the hand using your action to move 30ft seems fine.

That said, if you really want to get into the RAW weeds: levitate states that "The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing." We could argue about whether this means that 'climbing' is the only available method of movement or whether Mage Hand counts as a "fixed object" or not.

[Christew]

I mean...probably?

Does that mean an Arcane Trickster flies at twice the speed?

I probably wouldn't rule it towards utilizing momentum, though. 5e isn't zoned for that. A "No Fly Zone", as it were.

Good point about AT. Although, burning your action and bonus action to achieve 60ft of flight seems a pretty steep price, so I don't really see a problem there either.

[Zhorn]

It's one of those things while by rule of cool I'd allow...
But also I'd say you're going to need DM buy in from table to table. As Christew says, Levitate specifies needing a fixed object/surface, which Mage Hand is not. Add to that Mage Hand specifies it is against objects, not creatures.
Again, I'd allow it because I thing it is fun and makes reasonable sense, but I's expect for RAW strict DMs to deny this

[1Pirate]

Yeah I wouldn't allow it. While you might be "weightless" while levitating, you still have mass and RAI I don't think the mage hand was intended to only be limited by gravitation pull. RAW it can't affect creatures so it's a moot point.

[Throne12]

By RAW no you cant because levitate doesnt make your weight 0. It just say a object or creature rises off the ground. So you still have all your weight.

[Dork_Forge]

I might allow it in the moment for a cool work around to something, but I wouldn't let it fly as a regular exploit. If you let this happen ongoingly on the principle of it negates weight, what's to stop the party just levitating a cart or something as a flying car regularly?

[Friv]

I might allow it in the moment for a cool work around to something, but I wouldn't let it fly as a regular exploit. If you let this happen ongoingly on the principle of it negates weight, what's to stop the party just levitating a cart or something as a flying car regularly?

Mostly the 500 lb limit and the 10 minute duration, I would think. A typical cart already weighs about 200 pounds, assuming it's pretty small, so you can't put more than one extra person in it (or two very small people.) At that point, you've got... a cart floating in the air, which you can push along at a slower rate than the cart would roll, while most of the party walks on the ground. It's a neat trick, but not exactly a game-breaking one. However...

Thinking about this from a RAI perspective, it really does come down to how easy a levitating object is to push. Presumably they can be pushed, because otherwise that spell is really powerful, but they also must retain mass, otherwise they would be drifting on the breeze and that's a fairly important thing to list in a spell description. The most reasonable description that I've seen references "favorable conditions" for pushing objects doubling your ability to push, and that seems reasonable. Under that ruling, a mage hand could push a levitating object that weighed up to 20 pounds, so not a person.

[Dork_Forge]

Mostly the 500 lb limit and the 10 minute duration, I would think. A typical cart already weighs about 200 pounds, assuming it's pretty small, so you can't put more than one extra person in it (or two very small people.) At that point, you've got... a cart floating in the air, which you can push along at a slower rate than the cart would roll, while most of the party walks on the ground. It's a neat trick, but not exactly a game-breaking one. However...

Thinking about this from a RAI perspective, it really does come down to how easy a levitating object is to push. Presumably they can be pushed, because otherwise that spell is really powerful, but they also must retain mass, otherwise they would be drifting on the breeze and that's a fairly important thing to list in a spell description. The most reasonable description that I've seen references "favorable conditions" for pushing objects doubling your ability to push, and that seems reasonable. Under that ruling, a mage hand could push a levitating object that weighed up to 20 pounds, so not a person.

I didn't think a cart was particularly small (it's presumably 200lbs of wood and meant to transport cargo) and it fits pretty well into the gray area of the rules this exists in: a cart weighs 200lbs, the spell targets a creature or object that can't weigh more than 500lbs, you're levitating the cart not the people inside it (who are just along for the ride and got in after the casting).

If the DM is cool with this stuff but wants everything to fit in the 500lbs limit: This doesn't even need to be a cart really, you could do this to a carpet and have almost the full 500lbs for party weight: Halflings and Gnomes average 40lbs, Kobolds between 25 and 35 and Goblins between 40 and 80. This is the kind of trick that fits a party of smaller stature adventurers, but even if you only have two, there's weight left over fora full size PC or two.

My point was really if you allow this kind of thing regularly, it opens up these kinds of shenanigans to the PCs are normal means of travel or overcoming obstacles.

[Chronos]

OK, so you've got a levitating carpet with four people on it. And...? How is that breaking anything?

[Dork_Forge]

OK, so you've got a levitating carpet with four people on it. And...? How is that breaking anything?

Depending on the DM, nothing at all. The point was to highlight that allowing something like that on a regular basis can snowball and give the party capabilities they wouldn't otherwise have, I like the idea of something simple like a chasm or destroyed bridge being a challenge for a level 3 party.

[Mellack]

I didn't think a cart was particularly small (it's presumably 200lbs of wood and meant to transport cargo) and it fits pretty well into the gray area of the rules this exists in: a cart weighs 200lbs, the spell targets a creature or object that can't weigh more than 500lbs, you're levitating the cart not the people inside it (who are just along for the ride and got in after the casting).

If the DM is cool with this stuff but wants everything to fit in the 500lbs limit: This doesn't even need to be a cart really, you could do this to a carpet and have almost the full 500lbs for party weight: Halflings and Gnomes average 40lbs, Kobolds between 25 and 35 and Goblins between 40 and 80. This is the kind of trick that fits a party of smaller stature adventurers, but even if you only have two, there's weight left over fora full size PC or two.

My point was really if you allow this kind of thing regularly, it opens up these kinds of shenanigans to the PCs are normal means of travel or overcoming obstacles.

I would point out that levitate does nothing to change the structure of the person or object. A person who is levitated still can move all of their limbs. That means a carpet that levitates is still just as floppy. Going to make it a lot harder to get all that stuff on it.

[Tanarii]

, but considering Levitate essentially makes you weightless,

This part is not correct. Levitate lifts the weight. It doesn't remove it.

I gather you're envisioning the spell makes you buoyant, as opposed to envisioning it acting like an invisible lift or hand raising up the person.

[Christew]

OK, so you've got a levitating carpet with four people on it. And...? How is that breaking anything?

It moves 30ft per round at a cost of an action per round! That kind of blistering speed should be attainable only by Hermes himself!

I mean it can rise, so it would trivialize some terrain encounters, but so does rope.

[Nagog]

Depending on the DM, nothing at all. The point was to highlight that allowing something like that on a regular basis can snowball and give the party capabilities they wouldn't otherwise have, I like the idea of something simple like a chasm or destroyed bridge being a challenge for a level 3 party.

I mean yeah a challenge, but this would be a solution. If you're invalidating the solution because you don't like it, the players aren't going to try thinking out of the box anymore, they'll just wait around until the solution presents itself.

It moves 30ft per round at a cost of an action per round! That kind of blistering speed should be attainable only by Hermes himself!

I mean it can rise, so it would trivialize some terrain encounters, but so does rope.

Terrain encounters would probably be made more difficult tbh. You can use your action to move or to do something that furthers the encounter, i.e. attack or cast a spell. Considering it also takes up the caster's concentration, it's an even bigger detriment.

[Talionis]

I did the same thing only being pushed by my familiar. We ruled it worked but was slow and not maneuverable. So it gave little combat advantage over plain levitate but it allowed my character to get to about any place if speed wasn’t of the essence.

[Dork_Forge]

I mean yeah a challenge, but this would be a solution. If you're invalidating the solution because you don't like it, the players aren't going to try thinking out of the box anymore, they'll just wait around until the solution presents itself.

My answer to this would be that I'd probably allow it in the moment of overcoming a challenge (perhaps asking for something like inspiration to be burned to help pull it off) but wouldn't allow it as an ongoing strategy.

Players get to be creative without it getting out of hand.