Dragon Breath

[EdwardThereseJr]

1e has been a trip to figure out, and the latest of my many questions is: How does the dragon breath special attack work. My friends and I are trying to do a retrospective of all the D&D editions (along with other systems), and I decided that I'll be as classic and on-the nose with 1e as possible: One massive dungeon, at the end of which there is a dragon.

I picked a red dragon, and under its special attacks the monster manual reads:

A red dragon is able to attack by means of a claw/claw/bite routine or by breathing a cone of fire, 9” long by 3” base diameter.

So, there is a damage expression for the claw/claw/bite routine in the main stat block, but I have no idea what kind of damage is done in that area of effect or if there are any side effects (do things actually catch fire, for instance).

Anyone know what is supposed to happen -- or, if this is something else just not properly explained in these rules, what would be a good way to handle it?

[Zombimode]

There should be a table where the breath attack damage as well as magic resistance, spells and other abilities by age category are listed.

[D+1]

I picked a red dragon, and under its special attacks the monster manual reads:

A red dragon is able to attack by means of a claw/claw/bite routine or by breathing a cone of fire, 9” long by 3” base diameter.

So, there is a damage expression for the claw/claw/bite routine in the main stat block, but I have no idea what kind of damage is done in that area of effect or if there are any side effects (do things actually catch fire, for instance).

Anyone know what is supposed to happen -- or, if this is something else just not properly explained in these rules, what would be a good way to handle it?

It's right there, you just need to read a little further in that same paragraph:

Dragons can attack by claw/bite or breath weapon. The latter can be used but three times per day, maximum. If a choice is possible roll percentile dice. Any score above 50% indicates the dragon will breathe. The breath weapon causes damage equal to the dragon’s hit points (half that amount if a saving throw is made) on each and every creature hit by the breath weapon. Cone shaped breath weapons are ½” diameter at point of origin.

And yes, saving throws are made for objects that are vulnerable to the type of breath being used. See the 1E DMG p.80 for more detail on item saving throws and saves in general. It is somewhat subject to the DM's discretion as to whether objects do indeed need to make saving throws against certain attack forms. For example, the table listing items saves has one column for saves versus normal blow and one for crushing blow. That doesn't mean that every time one sword hits another, or hits a shield, or hit armor that the thing which is hit then needs to save versus normal blow or be destroyed. After all, it is the very nature of such objects to sustain blows again and again and again - without breaking. The idea is that IF a strike is made specifically against a sword, shield, armor with the intent to destroy it then it can possibly be broken by a normal blow. But then again, it wasn't really the intent to suggest that was possible to do in normal melee either. Later editions might call it sundering but in 1E the idea would be closer to finding a shield lying on a table and then swinging your sword at it to specifically try to break it.

Other than that, if an object is exposed to the forms of attack listed - they do indeed need to save versus that attack or suffer the logical consequences. Things that can burn will burn. Things that melt (like gold coins!) will melt. Things that will shatter or otherwise be destroyed by lightning will shatter or be destroyed. Things vulnerable to acid will corrode away. Etc. etc. Magic items get bonuses to the saves.

That's still a huge amount of item destruction and as characters gain levels and start facing more magical attacks and more powerful magical attacks it gets crazy. So, I'm not sure where the rule came from or if it was just a house rule for 1E that we used, but our group at least decided that PC's don't need to save for their items at all unless they fail their save against the attack. And only truly substantial attacks generally needed to be bothered with in checking items. So, fireballs and lightning bolts especially were the primary destructive forces, but also spells and attacks that do heavy damage by cold or acid. We didn't have items being destroyed by Hell Hound breath but DEFINITELY things got destroyed by dragon breath. And of course items that have some amount of protection requires that the protecting item be destroyed first. In other words, a sword in a scabbard gets a break in requiring the scabbard to first be destroyed before the sword can be destroyed. A potion that's wrapped in cloth and stuffed into a backpack that's also covered by a travelling cloak is much safer because the cloak, backpack and wrapping cloth all have to fail saves before the potion is vulnerable. That's just kind of common sense. If a dragon breathed on a character with a potion buried in their pack like that it'd be a bit crazy to have any one of the cloak, backpack, or cloth SUCCEED in saving but the potion inside/underneath all that fails the save and boils away or burns up. It takes some sensible adjudication by the DM because the 1E rules themselves don't spell it out every time that using some common sense and even DEFYING the rules on occasion is part of being the DM and running the game. And obviously dealing with a NONSTOP parade of destroyed items makes the game a WHOLE LOT less fun for anybody. (Just also keep in mind that if a character then wants to get that deeply buried potion out and use it in the middle of combat it's gonna take a while...)

In fact, a LOT of the time back in the day we just forgot about item saves entirely.

[Telok]

Also, please remember to ad-hoc some bonuses in for people trying to hide behind big, sturdy things like large trees, heavy wagons, and stone walls.

It's depressing for a player taking pains to look harmless, unarmed, and stay under cover to be the only one blasted with a breath weapon from the other side of a tree just because the dragon dropped a darkness spell on the clump of heavily armed adventurers.

[EdwardThereseJr]

It's right there, you just need to read a little further in that same paragraph:

Ooh, it's in the general "dragon" entry, not in the individual dragons ... I was just looking at a red dragon specifically, and only scanned the main article, noting something about subduing rules vaguely.

Thank you all for your help navigating this book. I only have a PDF from DriveThruRPG, and between the light and the format, my eyes get pretty tired. I don't do too much double-checking.

Again appreciate it. I'll probably chop down the save checks somehow ...

[LibraryOgre]

Also, please remember to ad-hoc some bonuses in for people trying to hide behind big, sturdy things like large trees, heavy wagons, and stone walls.

It's depressing for a player taking pains to look harmless, unarmed, and stay under cover to be the only one blasted with a breath weapon from the other side of a tree just because the dragon dropped a darkness spell on the clump of heavily armed adventurers.

If you check pages 64 and 65 of the DMG, cover provides a bonus to saving throws equal to its bonus to AC. If you have 90% cover and make your save, you take no damage.

On saving throws for objects, they can be scary and fun. I still remember by brother's barbarian fighting a fire elemental, and his armor failed a save v. magical fire. He wound up fighting the elemental in the burning remains of his armor, with our magicians sneaking in to cast an armor spell on him.