Wizard vs fighter, low level melee

[Brenden1k]

A wizard and fighter spawns right next to each other in a dungeon like a goblin cavern from the opening of goblin slayer does the wizard win,

If both are level one,

If both are level 3.

If both are level 6.

Best out of hundred.

[DeTess]

Depends on their respective builds. At level one it'll probably go to the fighter, at higher levels it'll be down to whether the wizard gets the opportunity to pre-buff, and who wins initiative.

[Vizzerdrix]

Without pre buffs, at all levels, he who goes first, wins. The wizard has the best chance of being the first to act, with an okay dex, Improved initiative, hummingbird, and nerveskitter.

[Gnaeus]

Without pre buffs, at all levels, he who goes first, wins. The wizard has the best chance of being the first to act, with an okay dex, Improved initiative, hummingbird, and nerveskitter.

That’s basically true.

To go just a bit further, once the wizard has had initiative, Abrupt Jaunt should give him multiple rounds to finish the fighter without risk. The fighter also probably wins if he goes first, but the wizard can lock it in a round.

[Piggy Knowles]

Since the OP didn't specify, can we add in some conditions?

Personally I'd propose the following:

• No pre-cast buffs for either party that are less than an hour in duration.
• The wizard and fighter spawn adjacent to each other, but neither party is restricted to only using melee attacks.
• The wizard is not allowed to sell their spellbook.
• 32-point buy, official sources only, no flaws/traits.
• Standard WBL, no crafting permitted, no custom items.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wizard is probably using the Fighter feat variant in UA and has Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Plus he can cast Nerveskitter. The Wizard's 1st level feat can be anything, but let's say it's Toughness. The Fighter's feats are probably Power Attack and Cleave, or Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, or Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes, etc. Most beneficial to him for this exercise is probably Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes. The Wizard is also a conjuration specialist with Abrupt Jaunt.

Both characters probably made Dex their second or third highest stat (Str > Con > Dex for the Fighter, Int > Con > Dex for the Wizard). The Wizard is probably a gray elf or similar, which gets a Dex bonus, the Fighter could be anything but may be a wood elf or earth dwarf. So let's say the Fighter has Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, while the Wizard has Int 18, Dex 16, Con 12. The Fighter is planning to take Combat Expertise so he has Int 13, and has dumped the other stats for Wis 10 and Cha 8. The Wizard probably has Str 10, other stats don't matter.

The Wizard's initiative bonus is ten higher than the Fighter's. If they were equal they would each win initiative 50% of the time. A +10 on a d20 roll is 50%, so that means 50% of the times the Fighter would have won initiative if their bonuses were equal, the Wizard wins instead, so the Wizard wins initiative 75% of the time. The Fighter has 13 hp, the Wizard has 8 hp.

If the Fighter wins initiative he swings two-handed against the Wizard's AC 10+Dex (13) with his BAB+WF+Str (+6) and hits roughly 65% of the time. He's dealing 2d6+6, so he takes the Wizard to 0 or lower if he hits. Out of 100 matches, the Fighter wins initiative on 25, and defeats the Wizard in the first round on 16 of those.

The Wizard will 5-ft. step away from the Fighter and cast Color Spray or some other save-or-lose spell targeting the Fighter's Will save. His DC is 15, the Fighter's save bonus is +0, so he fails 75% of the time. The Wizard has at least two rounds while he's unconscious to deliver repeated coup de grace attacks, which automatically critically hit for max damage. Even if the Fighter makes the save to survive a coup de grace, the Wizard's quarterstaff deals 12 damage each time he does it. So out of 100 matches, the Wizard wins initiative on 75, and defeats the Fighter in the first round on 56 of those.

If the Fighter goes first and misses (9 matches), the Wizard does his thing and wins on 7 of those, the remaining 2 matches go to a second round.
If the Wizard goes first and the Fighter makes his saving throw, the Fighter does his thing and the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt to avoid his attack, so all 19 of those matches go to the second round.

So out of 100 matches at 1st level, the Wizard wins in the first round on 63 of them, the Fighter wins in the first round in 16 of those, and the remaining 21 go to a second round. The Fighter 5-ft steps toward the Wizard and swings, the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt, so the Wizard starts his turn 10 feet away. The Wizard can sprint away, the Fighter is likely in medium armor or is a dwarf and moves slower, so he won't catch up and the Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt any ranged attacks he attempts until he's out of view due to terrain (he runs out of the dungeon, not into it). So the remaining 21 end in a draw.

[Doctor Despair]

Since the OP didn't specify, can we add in some conditions?

Personally I'd propose the following:

• No pre-cast buffs for either party that are less than an hour in duration.
• The wizard and fighter spawn adjacent to each other, but neither party is restricted to only using melee attacks.
• The wizard is not allowed to sell their spellbook.
• 32-point buy, official sources only, no flaws/traits.
• Standard WBL, no crafting permitted, no custom items.

Are we doing no templates? Templates can open up a bunch of immunities super early for non-casters who don't benefit as much from levels as casters do.

At level 3, the fighter can have Mage Slayer, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain; however, all of that, while frightening, is obviated in the face of Elusive Dance, available to the straight wizard at level 7, or earlier if we take Primary Contact (consuming all two of a non-human wizard's feats, but leaving us with Elusive Dance at the level 6 benchmark). If they're starting adjacent to one another, Elusive Dance is a must, I think, just to hedge the wizard's bets.

So no attacks of opportunity. The wizard, as others have said, if human, can have +13 from a hummingbird familiar, nerveskitter, and improved initiative. By level 6 the fighter probably also has improved initiative, so that puts it down to a net +9, which is still respectable. By level 6, what's the wizard's go-to SOS?

At level 3, I'd assume the wizard casts Nerveskitter, tanks the attack of opportunity, and goes for Color Spray, right?

[Gnaeus]

So out of 100 matches at 1st level, the Wizard wins in the first round on 63 of them, the Fighter wins in the first round in 16 of those, and the remaining 21 go to a second round. The Fighter 5-ft steps toward the Wizard and swings, the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt, so the Wizard starts his turn 10 feet away. The Wizard can sprint away, the Fighter is likely in medium armor or is a dwarf and moves slower, so he won't catch up and the Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt any ranged attacks he attempts until he's out of view due to terrain (he runs out of the dungeon, not into it). So the remaining 21 end in a draw.

Why does he sprint away on round 2 rather than cast another color spray?

[Doctor Despair]

Why does he sprint away on round 2 rather than cast another color spray?

He also assumed the fighter wouldn't have mage-slayer and/or a reach weapon to take full advantage of combat reflexes, both of which make it a lot harder to be a wizard at low levels.

[Gnaeus]

He also assumed the fighter wouldn't have mage-slayer and/or a reach weapon to take full advantage of combat reflexes, both of which make it a lot harder to be a wizard at low levels.

Well it’s a sure thing he doesn’t have mage slayer at 1. As listed above, the wizard can counter them by 6. At 3rd the wizard would have to choose whether to go for the draw as described by biffonicus or use a first level wand which won’t provoke, will still have about a 50/50 to take the fighter out of the fight, and the fighter still can’t beat the abrupt jaunt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why does he sprint away on round 2 rather than cast another color spray?

He's a 1st level Conjurer, he has two non-Conjuration spells, Color Spray and Nerveskitter. He can't have another Color Spray, and no 1st level Conjuration spell can win in one round.

HOWEVER, if we replace Color Spray with Power Word: Pain, it will deal an average of 35 damage which is almost sure to kill the Fighter every time. There's no save an no chance to resist unless he has SR, so the Wizard just casts that and focuses on running/abrupt jaunting until he dies. That means if the Fighter doesn't kill the Wizard when he gets to go first, the Wizard wins and there are no draws unless the Fighter manages to also kill the Wizard.

He also assumed the fighter wouldn't have mage-slayer and/or a reach weapon to take full advantage of combat reflexes, both of which make it a lot harder to be a wizard at low levels.

Mage Slayer requires BAB +3, a 1st level Fighter can't have it. The Fighter has Combat Reflexes, which could help him, but actually doesn't, and the Wizard has Toughness, which could help him, but actually doesn't, so it's fair and even.

[ExLibrisMortis]

N.B. I'm assuming the wizard and the fighter can only hurt one another with melee attacks, i.e. ranged attacks, spell attacks, summoning, breath weapons etc. are not allowed. That isn't actually in the OP, but it's what I thought of when I saw the title, so I'm rolling with it.

I'm pretty sure you can build a first-level fighter to counter any specific first-level melee wizard and vice versa. The trick is to find a good build that'll "take all comers".

Arctic water orc focused conjurer 1 with EWP (awlpike), Abrupt Jaunt, Improved Initiative as wizard bonus feat, nerveskitter, 3x grease and 3x caltrops prepared. Stats 22/16/12/12/6/4 (32 pb). Equipment: awlpike and sundark goggles (or fight in the shade). If flaws and traits are in play, throw Aggressive, Quick, Shaky, Vulnerable, and... dunno, probably some attack/damage/initiative, because why not (can't qualify for Obtain Familiar at level 1, though--shame about the hummingbird). Maybe Shape Soulmeld (bloodtalons), for that Diehard-without-prereq.

5 hp, 13 AC, +12 Initiative, attacks at +6 with 15' reach for 1d8+9 damage. Any time you would be attacked, Abrupt Jaunt away. On your turn, you can create obstacles, charge, or ready against a charge, depending on what you're fighting. Should be a pretty fun fight, really.

I hope no stealthy fighters show up, because that -2 Spot/Listen is not looking so good .

[Troacctid]

Why not use the builds given in the PHB? I mean, they're right there. The human fighter has Weapon Focus (greatsword), Blind-Fight, Power Attack, 15 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, and 12 Wis. The dwarf fighter has Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe), Power Attack, 15 Str, 13 Dex, 16 Con, and 12 Wis. The elf wizard has Toughness, 15 Int, 15 Dex, 12 Con, and two of the following spells: charm person, summon monster I, sleep, cause fear, color spray, magic missile, silent image.

This gives Tordek, our dwarf fighter, a 42% chance of knocking out Mialee in a single attack, or 49% if he wins initiative and catches her flat-footed. (Add to that a smaller chance of reducing her to exactly 0, leaving her staggered, which means she can no longer win the fight, but still has the option to tie.) Meanwhile, with +3 to save against color spray, she has a 45% chance of knocking him out with her first attack. For the human fighter, he's more likely to kill her in one hit, since the greatsword does more damage, but he's less likely to save against her spell. If they both miss, the fight gets better and better for the fighter the longer it goes on, since Mialee only has two 1st-level spell slots and each of the fighter's attacks reduces the average damage needed for a knockout on the next one. Anyone want to math it out?

[Doctor Despair]

Mage Slayer requires BAB +3, a 1st level Fighter can't have it. The Fighter has Combat Reflexes, which could help him, but actually doesn't, and the Wizard has Toughness, which could help him, but actually doesn't, so it's fair and even.

That's fair; I somehow missed you were doing level 1 humans, and not level 3 race-neutral builds.

If you're at level 1, wouldn't Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Whip be better than Combat Reflexes? Without reach, combat reflexes is literally useless, right? Either the wizard goes first and you don't get any attacks of opportunity, or the fighter goes first, then the wizard five-foot steps, and you don't get any attacks of opportunity? Going for EWP: Spiked Whip at least lets you get one attack of opportunity when the wizard tries to cast after his five-foot step, or an attack if the wizard goes for a full move action (hopefully doing enough damage to finish him).

With that being the case, would it also be better to take Improved Initiative over Power Attack at level 1, since we only have 1 to trade away anyway? We reduce our chances of one-shotting the wizard upon winning initiative, but with our attack of opportunity, we probably increase our damage enough to make up for that since the wizard's level 1 hp is so low, right?

[Gruftzwerg]

Since the OP didn't specify, can we add in some conditions?

Personally I'd propose the following:

• No pre-cast buffs for either party that are less than an hour in duration.
• The wizard and fighter spawn adjacent to each other, but neither party is restricted to only using melee attacks.
• The wizard is not allowed to sell their spellbook.
• 32-point buy, official sources only, no flaws/traits.
• Standard WBL, no crafting permitted, no custom items.

we also have no limitations that forbid pun-pun.

And the winner with a perfect score is "pun-pun"^^.

Better we add that they spawn as fresh matured lvl1 chars with no preparation time at all.

[WorstPlayerEver]

Wizard is probably using the Fighter feat variant in UA and has Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Plus he can cast Nerveskitter. The Wizard's 1st level feat can be anything, but let's say it's Toughness. The Fighter's feats are probably Power Attack and Cleave, or Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, or Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes, etc. Most beneficial to him for this exercise is probably Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes. The Wizard is also a conjuration specialist with Abrupt Jaunt.

Both characters probably made Dex their second or third highest stat (Str > Con > Dex for the Fighter, Int > Con > Dex for the Wizard). The Wizard is probably a gray elf or similar, which gets a Dex bonus, the Fighter could be anything but may be a wood elf or earth dwarf. So let's say the Fighter has Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, while the Wizard has Int 18, Dex 16, Con 12. The Fighter is planning to take Combat Expertise so he has Int 13, and has dumped the other stats for Wis 10 and Cha 8. The Wizard probably has Str 10, other stats don't matter.

The Wizard's initiative bonus is ten higher than the Fighter's. If they were equal they would each win initiative 50% of the time. A +10 on a d20 roll is 50%, so that means 50% of the times the Fighter would have won initiative if their bonuses were equal, the Wizard wins instead, so the Wizard wins initiative 75% of the time. The Fighter has 13 hp, the Wizard has 8 hp.

If the Fighter wins initiative he swings two-handed against the Wizard's AC 10+Dex (13) with his BAB+WF+Str (+6) and hits roughly 65% of the time. He's dealing 2d6+6, so he takes the Wizard to 0 or lower if he hits. Out of 100 matches, the Fighter wins initiative on 25, and defeats the Wizard in the first round on 16 of those.

The Wizard will 5-ft. step away from the Fighter and cast Color Spray or some other save-or-lose spell targeting the Fighter's Will save. His DC is 15, the Fighter's save bonus is +0, so he fails 75% of the time. The Wizard has at least two rounds while he's unconscious to deliver repeated coup de grace attacks, which automatically critically hit for max damage. Even if the Fighter makes the save to survive a coup de grace, the Wizard's quarterstaff deals 12 damage each time he does it. So out of 100 matches, the Wizard wins initiative on 75, and defeats the Fighter in the first round on 56 of those.

If the Fighter goes first and misses (9 matches), the Wizard does his thing and wins on 7 of those, the remaining 2 matches go to a second round.
If the Wizard goes first and the Fighter makes his saving throw, the Fighter does his thing and the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt to avoid his attack, so all 19 of those matches go to the second round.

So out of 100 matches at 1st level, the Wizard wins in the first round on 63 of them, the Fighter wins in the first round in 16 of those, and the remaining 21 go to a second round. The Fighter 5-ft steps toward the Wizard and swings, the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt, so the Wizard starts his turn 10 feet away. The Wizard can sprint away, the Fighter is likely in medium armor or is a dwarf and moves slower, so he won't catch up and the Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt any ranged attacks he attempts until he's out of view due to terrain (he runs out of the dungeon, not into it). So the remaining 21 end in a draw.

It is actually worse than this for the Fighter on the initiative front. If the wizard has a +10 advantage on the initiative score, he or she will win the initiative 88.75% of the time and the Fighter will only win initiative 11.25% of the time.

[JeminiZero]

What if the Fighter takes Willing Deformity & Deformity-Madness for immune to Mind Affecting?

[Thunder999]

Biffoniacus_Furiou seems to have already covered what would happen if both had fairly normal builds, but what changes if the characters are specifically built to win this particular fight?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Are we doing a typical/believable Wizard versus a typical/believable Fighter, or are we doing a Wizard purpose-built to defeat this Fighter with metagame knowledte, and a Fighter purpose-built to defeat this Wizard with metagame knowledge? I'd say something like a Human Fighter with Toughness and Troll Blooded at 1st level is believable, but taking Deformity: Madness at 1st level is a bit of a metagame choice. It's actually believable to have a Wizard with Nerveskitter and who took Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. It's not exactly believable to have a Fighter who's purpose-built to beat Wizards, to the point that he's ill-equipped to fight pretty much everything else he may encounter.

Let's say you have a Human Fighter with two flaws for Willing Deformity, Deformity: Madness, Toughness, Troll Blooded, and Improved Initiative. Let's say you have a Human Wizard with two flaws for Toughness, Troll Blooded, Endurance, Diehard, and trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative. The Fighter is carrying torches along with the means to light them, and has whatever the most optimal melee weapon is. The Wizard (Conjurer) has Acid Splash in all his cantrip slots, and Lesser Orb of Fire three times, plus a dagger and Abrupt Jaunt, and torches of his own. They both start with a lit torch, due to being humans in a cave. The Fighter is immune to spells like Color Spray and Power Word: Pain, but goes unconscious if he takes damage equal to his hp total due to his Regeneration. The Wizard also has Regeneration, but due to Diehard he doesn't go unconscious (see Frenzied Berserker gaining Diehard to not fall unconscious due to the nonlethal damage taken due to frenzy). Neither is aware the other has regeneration, they'll each melee the other confident in their ability to tank the other's damage due to their own regeneration.

When the Fighter goes first, he probably hits the Wizard but doesn't deal real damage to him. He'll probably try to hit him again hoping to knock him unconscious, unaware he has Diehard. If he's using a two-handed weapon he dropped his torch. When the Wizard goes first he starts trying to melee the Fighter with the dagger, still holding his torch. Once he manages to hit the Fighter he'll realize he also has regeneration and start 5-ft. stepping and casting his fire and acid spells on him in case he also has Diehard, reserving one of the Lesser Orb of Fire for a CDG if needed. If the Fighter switches to trying to hit him with the torch, he'll Abrupt Jaunt those attacks. He can use his own torch to make touch attacks on the Fighter for fire damage.

So while the Fighter has a means of dealing real damage to the Wizard, he won't be able to CDG with it, and the Wizard will automatically avoid a number of those attacks equal to his Int bonus. Meanwhile the Wizard will be dealing real damage to the Fighter with Acid Splash and Lesser Orb of Fire and his own torch. The Wizard can also hit the Fighter with his dagger until he goes unconscious, then deliver a 16 damage CDG with Lesser Orb of Fire.

If the Fighter also takes Endurance and Diehard instead of Deformity: Madness, the Wizard has Color Spray prepared twice and uses a Lesser Orb of Fire to CDG for 16 damage. Or the Wizard's tactics are unchanged because he can actually deal enough lethal damage to kill the Fighter.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I had a thought, but unfortunately it doesn't work, because alter self is a more limited spell than you'd think (I mean, it's second-level, surely it should be a campaign breaker?!). You need polymorph to do this. Still, worth a chuckle, and perhaps someone can find a nice 5 HD alter self form that is worth it.

Spoiler: You'll lose the fight if you try this, but it'll look funny.

Show

Can we stack enough CL boosters on Transmutation for a first-level elan wizard to alter self into a grell?

Grell have 5 HD and 10 tentacle attacks for 1d4+1 plus poison each. The poison causes paralysis. Grell also fly, have Improved Grab and Constrict, and +10 on grapple checks.

Base CL of 1, of course.
One feat for Precocious Apprentice to get the spell.
One trait for Spellgifted (Transmutation) to get +1 CL.
Trade in familiar to get School Mastery for +1 CL.
One flaw to get Mutable Body for +1 CL.
One flaw to get Primitive Caster to add a material component for +1 CL.

Just need to roll a 3 or higher on your CL check. 90% chance of grell achieved .

(Why it doesn't work: alter self doesn't give you blindsight. Grell are blind.

Apart from that you also don't get the poison or grapple-related stuff, but that's acceptable.

I'd argue you do get their flight (since it's a "gross physical quality"), but it can be argued you are stuck with a 5' speed, too.)

[JeminiZero]

I'd say something like a Human Fighter with Toughness and Troll Blooded at 1st level is believable, but taking Deformity: Madness at 1st level is a bit of a metagame choice.

How exactly is Willing Deformity-Madness meta-gamey? Immune to Mind Affecting is a HUGE benefit even outside this duel. Many other monsters use mind attacks. Feytouched does the same thing and is considered worth the 1 LA. Even at L1 you can expect things like Nixie, Grig and Puppeteer mental attacks (in addition to mind affecting spells from every sort of Arcanist). And as your levels go up - or rather, as the CR of monsters you expect to face goes up - its usefulness only gets better.

Going back to the builds, given the immense benefit of Trollblooded + Diehard combo, the Fighter would be better off swapping Improved Init and Toughness for it. (So: Willing Deformity, Deformity Madness, Trollblooded, Endurance, Diehard.) As above, I would note that this is a very useful build even outside duels with Wizards and should not be considered meta-gamey. A L1 fighter built like this can smash through most CR appropriate opponents that don't use fire/acid.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How exactly is Willing Deformity-Madness meta-gamey? Immune to Mind Affecting is a HUGE benefit even outside this duel. Many other monsters use mind attacks. Feytouched does the same thing and is considered worth the 1 LA. Even at L1 you can expect things like Nixie, Grig and Puppeteer mental attacks (in addition to mind affecting spells from every sort of Arcanist). And as your levels go up - or rather, as the CR of monsters you expect to face goes up - its usefulness only gets better.

Going back to the builds, given the immense benefit of Trollblooded + Diehard combo, the Fighter would be better off swapping Improved Init and Toughness for it. (So: Willing Deformity, Deformity Madness, Trollblooded, Endurance, Diehard.) As above, I would note that this is a very useful build even outside duels with Wizards and should not be considered meta-gamey. A L1 fighter built like this can smash through most CR appropriate opponents that don't use fire/acid.

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded. Willing Deformity is required for Deformity: Madness. Endurance is required for Diehard. A Human Fighter 1 with two flaws gets five feats, he can't get all of that, there's an opportunity cost. Whichever set he doesn't get, the Wizard uses to beat him. Meanwhile the Wizard only needs to spend four feats on Troll Blooded and Diehard.

[Gnaeus]

How exactly is Willing Deformity-Madness meta-gamey? Immune to Mind Affecting is a HUGE benefit even outside this duel. Many other monsters use mind attacks. Feytouched does the same thing and is considered worth the 1 LA. Even at L1 you can expect things like Nixie, Grig and Puppeteer mental attacks (in addition to mind affecting spells from every sort of Arcanist). And as your levels go up - or rather, as the CR of monsters you expect to face goes up - its usefulness only gets better..

Well it’s a world specific, region specific dragon Magazine feat coupled with BOVD and Elder Evil feats that require you to be a diabolically evil, self-mutilated insane freak. I can only think that the campaigns wherein this is A allowed and B functional are very, very rare. It’s hardly comparable to other listed fighter or wizard tactics.

[Maat Mons]

There's a Wizard build that can apply Fell Drain to Sonic Snap at 1st level, isn't there?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a Wizard build that can apply Fell Drain to Sonic Snap at 1st level, isn't there?

Fell Drain is a +2 metamagic. You can use Metamagic School Focus for a -1 reduction 3/day, it requires specializing in the school or Spell Focus. Easy Metamagic in Dragon 325 is another -1 reduction for that specific metamagic feat. If PF material is permitted, the Magical Lineage trait is a permanent -1 metamagic cost for a specific spell. I'm not sure what other reducers you can get at 1st level, but any two of those will get the job done.

[JeminiZero]

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded.

You're right, I missed that.

Well it’s a world specific, region specific dragon Magazine feat coupled with BOVD and Elder Evil feats that require you to be a diabolically evil, self-mutilated insane freak.

The question is how is Deformity-Madness meta-gamey, in the sense that it is a feat that fighters will take ONLY for this challenge. My argument is that it is a generally useful feat which is useful outside of this challenge.

I can only think that the campaigns wherein this is A allowed

If you are saying that it is from a rarely allowed source. Yes I agree. But it is from an official book, and is therefore allowed for this challenge.

The point I'm trying to make is that in a campaign where Deformity-Madness is allowed, it is believable that the Fighter will take it, even if he doesn't know that he will be duelling a wizard in a cave.

B functional are very, very rare. It’s hardly comparable to other listed fighter or wizard tactics.

I disagree. Getting immunity to mind-affecting is a fully legit tactic, and not just for fighters/wizards. It even has its own entry in the list of necessary magic items.

You can say that the method used is from a rarely allowed source, in which case I fully agree. But immunity to mind affecting is a legitimate tactic.

[Lans]

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded. Willing Deformity is required for Deformity: Madness. Endurance is required for Diehard. A Human Fighter 1 with two flaws gets five feats, he can't get all of that, there's an opportunity cost. Whichever set he doesn't get, the Wizard uses to beat him. Meanwhile the Wizard only needs to spend four feats on Troll Blooded and Diehard.

Short on Feats? Do you have a brain? Come on down to Junji Itos Unitarian Church of Elder Evils for 1 free feat. What you say you want more? JUICEE also gives you 1 free feat for every 5 HD. You would have to be willingly mad to turn down this offer that is limited to a select list of feats found in the book of elder evils, subject to DM glares, while supplies last

[Twurps]

Are we doing a typical/believable Wizard versus a typical/believable Fighter, or are we doing a Wizard purpose-built to defeat this Fighter with metagame knowledte, and a Fighter purpose-built to defeat this Wizard with metagame knowledge? I'd say something like a Human Fighter with Toughness and Troll Blooded at 1st level is believable, but taking Deformity: Madness at 1st level is a bit of a metagame choice. It's actually believable to have a Wizard with Nerveskitter and who took Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. It's not exactly believable to have a Fighter who's purpose-built to beat Wizards, to the point that he's ill-equipped to fight pretty much everything else he may encounter

Funny you should bring this up, as I feel so far (As in every thread about wizards on this forum, so don't feel bad) it's the wizard that's build specifically for this challenge, more so than the fighter. So I would say: build the wizard where the challenge is going to be 1 of 4 things at lvl1.
1. another wizard (hey, there's more wizards doing this challenge after all)
2. A fighter
3. A skeleton
4. ... don't actually know, open to suggestions here. something different. A swarm?

Obviously, the same would go for the fighter. though like I said, it might matter less for the fighter.

Another big difference between fighter and wizard that always gets overlooked in this kind of threads is the fighter's stamina, vs the wizards ability to go nova. A single challenge will obviously favor the wizard. If both meet even a rat on their way to meeting each other, that could make quite the difference.

So let's say we have 16 contestants, divided evenly among the 4 categories above (so 4 of each). pitted in 1vs1 duels to the death. winners go to the next fight (So after 4 rounds of duals, there's 1 overall winner). All fights happen within 1 day, with 1 hour in between. What chance do the fighter and wizard stand then of becoming the overall winner?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Short on Feats? Do you have a brain? Come on down to Junji Itos Unitarian Church of Elder Evils for 1 free feat. What you say you want more? JUICEE also gives you 1 free feat for every 5 HD. You would have to be willingly mad to turn down this offer that is limited to a select list of feats found in the book of elder evils, subject to DM glares, while supplies last

Right, but one needs to be a Fighter bonus feat, which none of those six are. So you're still one feat short, as it requires six general feats to get all of those shenanigans. Even if the Fighter has Diehard, the Wizard is dealing enough fire and acid damage to kill him. I think the Fighter is better off skipping Diehard to go with a Lesser Aasimar or Lesser Tiefling (Resist Acid 5 or Resist Fire 5 respectively). But even then, the Wizard wastes a Lesser Orb of Fire finding out he's resistant to it and switches to Acid Splash, or wastes an Acid Splash fining out he's resistant to that, and in either case can melee him down with a dagger until he's unconscious and CDG with lethal damage.

Funny you should bring this up, as I feel so far (As in every thread about wizards on this forum, so don't feel bad) it's the wizard that's build specifically for this challenge, more so than the fighter. So I would say: build the wizard where the challenge is going to be 1 of 4 things at lvl1.
1. another wizard (hey, there's more wizards doing this challenge after all)
2. A fighter
3. A skeleton
4. ... don't actually know, open to suggestions here. something different. A swarm?

Obviously, the same would go for the fighter. though like I said, it might matter less for the fighter.

Another big difference between fighter and wizard that always gets overlooked in this kind of threads is the fighter's stamina, vs the wizards ability to go nova. A single challenge will obviously favor the wizard. If both meet even a rat on their way to meeting each other, that could make quite the difference.

So let's say we have 16 contestants, divided evenly among the 4 categories above (so 4 of each). pitted in 1vs1 duels to the death. winners go to the next fight (So after 4 rounds of duals, there's 1 overall winner). All fights happen within 1 day, with 1 hour in between. What chance do the fighter and wizard stand then of becoming the overall winner?

I think we're at the point where they both have Troll Blooded for regeneration 1. They can each just face tank whatever else they encounter while meleeing it down, and spend zero daily resources.

[Doctor Despair]

I think we're at the point where they both have Troll Blooded for regeneration 1. They can each just face tank whatever else they encounter while meleeing it down, and spend zero daily resources.

To be fair, if they take enough nonlethal damage without an immunity, they would go unconscious, and could be beaten into a coma with enough nonlethal damage (providing both could deal at least 2 damage per round), certainly counting as a win.