Wizard vs fighter, low level melee

[Gnaeus]

I disagree. Getting immunity to mind-affecting is a fully legit tactic, and not just for fighters/wizards. It even has its own entry in the list of necessary magic items.

You can say that the method used is from a rarely allowed source, in which case I fully agree. But immunity to mind affecting is a legitimate tactic.

Immunity to mind affecting is a legitimate tactic.

Turning yourself permanently into a terrifying vile insane monster at level 1 isn’t so much.

Best case the fight runs like this.

You kill the wizard. Go back to the tavern to celebrate. Murder their dog and make decorative garlands out of its insides so that you can really party hard. Because you are both diabolically evil and insane. You don’t even understand why the torch wielding mob is killing you. You hadn’t even gotten to the children yet. So it’s a draw.

[JeminiZero]

You kill the wizard. Go back to the tavern to celebrate. Murder their dog and make decorative garlands out of its insides so that you can really party hard. Because you are both diabolically evil and insane. You don’t even understand why the torch wielding mob is killing you. You hadn’t even gotten to the children yet. So it’s a draw.

One of the great things of the Deformity-Madness feat is that you can blame all your actions on madness. Even if the actions are pure and good.

See a puppy? Pet it and give it food. GM asks why would a vile evil character do something like this? Simple, your madness drove you to do it!

[Gnaeus]

One of the great things of the Deformity-Madness feat is that you can blame all your actions on madness. Even if the actions are pure and good.

See a puppy? Pet it and give it food. GM asks why would a vile evil character do something like this? Simple, your madness drove you to do it!

1. Why is this metagamey? That answer right there. I’m going to try to use feats that have crippling disadvantages to make them NPC only then ignore the disadvantage.

2. Why is it nonfunctional in a vast majority of games? Because if you take feats that are described as supernatural gifts from the foulest of entities and then do not perform appropriately, probably the nicest thing a reasonable DM would do is remove the benefits until you have Atoned for your puppy petting. So you are still a deformed (that’s permanent) insane (can’t see why you would lose that) freakish monster. You just aren’t immune to mind affecting until you get right with Hell. Being an insane fighter, lacking know arcana, planes or religion at a meaningful level, you probably don’t even know how screwed you are until you eat a color spray and show up at your bosses’ pad for a custom hellraiser experience complete with skin removal.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To be fair, if they take enough nonlethal damage without an immunity, they would go unconscious, and could be beaten into a coma with enough nonlethal damage (providing both could deal at least 2 damage per round), certainly counting as a win.

But they also have Diehard (at least the Wizard does), which means they don't go unconscious at all.

[Quertus]

So, the Wizard and Fighter *both* take Trollblooded and die-hard (and their prerequisite Toughness and Endurance). Maybe both take Improved Initiative, or maybe the Fighter takes +1 LA for mental immunity (although the Wizard is only +2 compared to the Fighter @ level 1…).

If it's a single challenge against a single random opponent, the Wizard only needs a single Nerveskitter.

If it's a 4-round 16-contestant fight, that's 4 Nerveskitter spells, leaving very little for offense at 1st level.

Color spray could *maybe* disable Fighters or Wizards alike. Not so good vs skeletons.

Heck, a Cleric might be an interesting option for the endurance match, what with healing and all. Especially at higher levels, if "a Shadow" was a potential level 3 challenger.

AFV - are there any CR 1 Dragons to really make the level 1 challenge hard?

[Doctor Despair]

But they also have Diehard (at least the Wizard does), which means they don't go unconscious at all.

I don’t think Diehard interacts with nonlethal damage. Diehard lets you remain conscious when at negative HP, but nonlethal damage doesn't reduce your HP; you keep track of it separately, and become unconscious when it exceeds your current HP.

You'd need Half-Undead (Gheden) for immunity to nonlethal damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don’t think Diehard interacts with nonlethal damage. Diehard lets you remain conscious when at negative HP, but nonlethal damage doesn't reduce your HP; you keep track of it separately, and become unconscious when it exceeds your current HP.

You'd need Half-Undead (Gheden) for immunity to nonlethal damage.

Take a look at the Frenzied Berserker. It takes nonlethal damage every round during a frenzy, but it doesn't die when it's at negative hp. It also gets Diehard as a bonus feat. The nonlethal damage it takes for being in a frenzy would cause it to fall unconscious as soon as it hits negative hp, immediately ending the frenzy and allowing it to die, making it not function at all. However, that's not the case, and Diehard is the only thing mechanically that would enable it to work. Thus we can only conclude that Diehard applies to both regular damage and nonlethal damage. The feat itself doesn't say that it doesn't apply to nonlethal damage, and the precedent from examples shows that this works.

Also, there was an official answer on a now-removed WotC page that clarified on how regeneration interacts with immunity to nonlethal damage. That ruling was that if a creature has both, the regeneration is no longer able to convert the damage they take into nonlethal damage so all damage received overcomes their regeneration.

[Doctor Despair]

Take a look at the Frenzied Berserker. It takes nonlethal damage every round during a frenzy, but it doesn't die when it's at negative hp. It also gets Diehard as a bonus feat. The nonlethal damage it takes for being in a frenzy would cause it to fall unconscious as soon as it hits negative hp, immediately ending the frenzy and allowing it to die, making it not function at all. However, that's not the case, and Diehard is the only thing mechanically that would enable it to work. Thus we can only conclude that Diehard applies to both regular damage and nonlethal damage. The feat itself doesn't say that it doesn't apply to nonlethal damage, and the precedent from examples shows that this works.

That a class doesn't work the way it was meant to with RAW doesn't imply that the rules do something they don't say they do.

Spoiler: Diehard

Show

Benefit
When reduced to between –1 and –9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach –10 hit points, you immediately die.

OK, so Diehard makes us stable between -1 and -9, and we presumably still die at -10. At negative hitpoints, we act as if we were disabled rather than dying, so we are conscious. This allows us to make a move or a standard action, although the standard and free actions cannot be "strenuous" as determined by your DM, lest you take one point of damage.

None of that references nonlethal damage. Let's check nonlethal damage to see if it reduces us to negative hp.

Spoiler: Dealing Nonlethal Damage

Show

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

So nonlethal damage explicitly does not deduct from your current hitpoints, so cannot reduce our current hitpoints to negative, but makes you unconscious when it exceeds your current hp. It never makes us dying, so diehard doesn't allow us to act as disabled instead, either, even if our current hp is negative. Technically, I suppose your nonlethal damage value is NAN rather than 0 if you haven't taken at least 1, so diehard still works as long as you have taken no nonlethal damage.

The Frenzied Berserker Class, as you said, seems nonfunctional unless you get some form of immunity to nonlethal damage. That doesn't mean that diehard naturally allows folks to ignore the rules for nonlethal damage, however; it just means that an immunity is required for Deathless Frenzy to be worth anything. Notably, the Frenzied Berserker would retain the benefit of diehard when not using Frenzy.

Also, there was an official answer on a now-removed WotC page that clarified on how regeneration interacts with immunity to nonlethal damage. That ruling was that if a creature has both, the regeneration is no longer able to convert the damage they take into nonlethal damage so all damage received overcomes their regeneration.

Is there a source on that? As I recall, the only thing precluding other sources of immunity to nonlethal damage (undead, construct, etc) from meshing with Troll Blooded is that you have to have a con score to have regeneration, which is why something like Half-Undead (Gheden) that leaves your con score intact is required. Maybe you're thinking of that? Or maybe the page clarified that things like undead or constructs no longer convert the damage into nonlethal because they don't have a con score?

[Maat Mons]

I think someone with Deformity (Madness) could pet puppies without ceasing to be a horrible monster. The fun part of being criminally insane is that anyone familiar with you is terrified no matter how nice you're being at the moment, because they know from experience that you can flip to murder-mode at any time, for reasons that only make sense only to you.



Is it okay to make the 1st-level contestants Necropolitans? It's LA +0, but they'd have to have been level 3 at some point in the past.

[Doctor Despair]

I'd think they'd be OK as level 3s, but not level 1s, as they'd have used WBL greater than what a level 1 should have

[ExLibrisMortis]

For what it's worth, you can get Diehard, Deformity (Madness) and Troll-blooded on a first-level fighter, if you're willing to use Dragon #310 variant fighters. Bodyguard, commander, corsair, knight, pugilist, shield bearer, and survivalist all get Toughness as a fighter bonus feat. Pugilist also gets Endurance for free at level 1, which helps meet the Diehard prerequisite, but you can just as easily use Shape Soulmeld (bloodtalons) or Shape Soulmeld (rageclaws), letting you keep your martial weapon proficiencies.


Edit: On the subject of Diehard: It's kind of annoying that the feat doesn't reference specific conditions. It would really improve the feat if it did.

I think it's best to read the feat as follows:

When Unconscious, you may act as if Disabled.

Because that's pretty much what the feat does, it's just laid out badly and doesn't refer to the conditions summary. Note that "Unconscious", in D&D, strictly refers to being knocked out.

Another way to read it is as follows:

When Dying or Stable, you may act as if Disabled.

This is a more specific reading that doesn't allow you to negate unconsciousness due to nonlethal damage. I prefer the first reading.

[Calthropstu]

Ummm. Why are we assuming the fighter has a -10 initiative? The fighter can also take improved initiative. Also, a dc 15 will save is not 75%. DC 16 is 75%. 15 is 70%. Also also, feats can also be grabbed that lessen this. Also also also, the fighter can, instead, take a reach/melee weapon that forces concentration checks to cast defensively. Also Also Also Also, you guys are pretty much building this fighter with the absolute worst possible options against this. So yeah, this excersize is kinda crap.

Fighter goes first: Swing reach weapon.
Wizard goes first: 5 foot steps, tries to concentrate. Fails 50% of the time.
Oh wait, the wizard doesn't have to concentrate if he goes first because the fighter hasn't gone yet? Good thing there's a feat for that. Oh wait, who gets the most feats in the game?

[Doctor Despair]

Ummm. Why are we assuming the fighter has a -10 initiative? The fighter can also take improved initiative. Also, a dc 15 will save is not 75%. DC 16 is 75%. 15 is 70%. Also also, feats can also be grabbed that lessen this. Also also also, the fighter can, instead, take a reach/melee weapon that forces concentration checks to cast defensively. Also Also Also Also, you guys are pretty much building this fighter with the absolute worst possible options against this. So yeah, this excersize is kinda crap.

I'm not sure why folks don't want him to have a reach weapon, to be honest.

At level 1, a human fighter could take Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes. If they go first, they attack, hit X% of the time (killing the wizard Y% of the time), and pass initiative.

The wizard then presumably, noticing the fighter has a reach weapon, decides to:

• Cast defensively (failing A% of the time, triggering an attack that hits B% of the time, and going down C% of the time)to Color Spray hit face, which the figher make's his save for D% of the time
• Move out of the fighter's reach, triggering an attack of opportunity that is presumably a trip attempt that hits E% of the time and trips him F% of the time, and then has to cast defensively from the ground, following the above situation.

Either way, if the fighter goes first, things look pretty good for him with a reach weapon. However, if the wizard goes first, the fighter doesn't get any attacks of opportunity, so you'd presumably want to cheese some way into an immunity to mind-affecting, or take troll-blooded and pump your AC to tank through the color sprays.

Edit: Didn't see you gamed out the reach weapon in your edit. On that note: there's a feat that lets you get attacks of opportunities when you're flat footed? Not sure how I missed that. What is it?

Edit2: I suppose technically we could do the Guissarme + Spiked Gauntlet/Armor Spikes trick to get a 10-foot threaten radius without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. We don't have enough gold for an enhancement bonus, so it won't matter too much that it's not one weapon.

[JeminiZero]

1. Why is this metagamey? That answer right there. I’m going to try to use feats that have crippling disadvantages to make them NPC only then ignore the disadvantage.

No, that's just min-maxing. I can give examples of builds that take something with disadvantages and then do what they can to ignore it. Hellfire Warlocks which circumvent Con damage, Celerity casters which circumvent Daze. Wizards who store spellbooks in their heads via Eidetic Spellcaster. Acorn of Far Travel shenanigans.

2. Why is it nonfunctional in a vast majority of games? Because if you take feats that are described as supernatural gifts from the foulest of entities and then do not perform appropriately, probably the nicest thing a reasonable DM would do is remove the benefits until you have Atoned for your puppy petting. So you are still a deformed (that’s permanent) insane (can’t see why you would lose that) freakish monster. You just aren’t immune to mind affecting until you get right with Hell. Being an insane fighter, lacking know arcana, planes or religion at a meaningful level, you probably don’t even know how screwed you are until you eat a color spray and show up at your bosses’ pad for a custom hellraiser experience complete with skin removal.

You can be evil without being "lol burn everything" evil. Just look at Tarquin. Heck, even chaotic evil Belkar gets along with some animals. The food you're giving the puppy? Preserved jerky of some sentient being you killed out in the wild.

I think someone with Deformity (Madness) could pet puppies without ceasing to be a horrible monster. The fun part of being criminally insane is that anyone familiar with you is terrified no matter how nice you're being at the moment, because they know from experience that you can flip to murder-mode at any time, for reasons that only make sense only to you.

Yes exactly.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not sure why folks don't want him to have a reach weapon, to be honest.

At level 1, a human fighter could take Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes. If they go first, they attack, hit X% of the time (killing the wizard Y% of the time), and pass initiative.

If you're not immune to colour spray, there's a good chance the wizard will kill you before you get to act.

Let's start with the same stat array: 18/14/14/12/8/8 (32 point-buy).
Both have 14 Dexterity, 14 Constutition, 12 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. The wizard has 8 Strength and 18 Intelligence, the fighter has the reverse.
The fighter can take hit-and-run fighter for +2 Initiative. The wizard can dump Wisdom to get +2 Dexterity for +1 Initiative and +1 AC.
They have the same number of feats, so let's say that neither or both have Improved Initiative.

Result: The wizard is going to have +4 or +5 extra Initiative. Let's go with +4.

The wizard has a 70% chance to act first. Note that the wizard wins ties due to their higher bonus.
The fighter has a 35% chance of making their Will save against colour spray.
Abrupt Jaunt avoids the Combat Reflexes AoO.
The wizard has a move action remaining to take cover, depending on the specific map.

Result: There's a 45.5% chance the wizard wins before the fighter acts.

The picture is similar with power word: pain, except that there is no save, and the wizard merely needs to stretch the fight for a round or five. With Diehard and Troll-Blooded, that is quite easy.
Of course, the fighter could dump Wisdom on the assumption that Initiative will help more. That reduces your chances of winning against colour spray (49.50% chance for a wizard win before you act), but you might do better against power word: pain.

Unless you can secure a 100% victory after round 1--and I doubt you can, because the wizard can Abrupt Jaunt again--you need to be able to counter these spells to secure a win rate over 50%.


Edit: The feat is Combat Reflexes.

Edit2: Moved to its own post.

[Calthropstu]

I'm not sure why folks don't want him to have a reach weapon, to be honest.

At level 1, a human fighter could take Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes. If they go first, they attack, hit X% of the time (killing the wizard Y% of the time), and pass initiative.

The wizard then presumably, noticing the fighter has a reach weapon, decides to:

• Cast defensively (failing A% of the time, triggering an attack that hits B% of the time, and going down C% of the time)to Color Spray hit face, which the figher make's his save for D% of the time
• Move out of the fighter's reach, triggering an attack of opportunity that is presumably a trip attempt that hits E% of the time and trips him F% of the time, and then has to cast defensively from the ground, following the above situation.

Either way, if the fighter goes first, things look pretty good for him with a reach weapon. However, if the wizard goes first, the fighter doesn't get any attacks of opportunity, so you'd presumably want to cheese some way into an immunity to mind-affecting, or take troll-blooded and pump your AC to tank through the color sprays.

Edit: Didn't see you gamed out the reach weapon in your edit. On that note: there's a feat that lets you get attacks of opportunities when you're flat footed? Not sure how I missed that. What is it?

Edit2: I suppose technically we could do the Guissarme + Spiked Gauntlet/Armor Spikes trick to get a 10-foot threaten radius without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. We don't have enough gold for an enhancement bonus, so it won't matter too much that it's not one weapon.

Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Combat reflexes.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A further refinement of the colour spray strategy:

Grey elf wizard 1 can have 6/20/6/20/8/8 stats with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Aggressive, two flaws, Shape Soulmeld (bluesteel bracers), Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence. +22 Initiative and DC 20 Will save. Combat routine is cast nerveskitter > win initiative > 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover without blocking line of sight, so you don't get an AoO to the face. That'll get you ~83% chance to win on round one, no problem (as long as you don't have to get an actual kill to win--if you do, use Greater Spell Focus for a DC 18 Will save).


(I edited this into my previous post, but it was getting confusing.)

[Doctor Despair]

Combat reflexes.

I somehow have missed the second half of that feat for years.

[Calthropstu]

If you're not immune to colour spray, there's a good chance the wizard will kill you before you get to act.

Let's start with the same stat array: 18/14/14/12/8/8 (32 point-buy).
Both have 14 Dexterity, 14 Constutition, 12 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. The wizard has 8 Strength and 18 Intelligence, the fighter has the reverse.
The fighter can take hit-and-run fighter for +2 Initiative. The wizard can dump Wisdom to get +2 Dexterity for +1 Initiative and +1 AC.
They have the same number of feats, so let's say that neither or both have Improved Initiative.

Result: The wizard is going to have +4 or +5 extra Initiative. Let's go with +4.

The wizard has a 70% chance to act first. Note that the wizard wins ties due to their higher bonus.
The fighter has a 35% chance of making their Will save against colour spray.
Abrupt Jaunt avoids the Combat Reflexes AoO.
The wizard has a move action remaining to take cover, depending on the specific map.

Result: There's a 45.5% chance the wizard wins before the fighter acts.

The picture is similar with power word: pain, except that there is no save, and the wizard merely needs to stretch the fight for a round or five. With Diehard and Troll-Blooded, that is quite easy.
Of course, the fighter could dump Wisdom on the assumption that Initiative will help more. That reduces your chances of winning against colour spray (49.50% chance for a wizard win before you act), but you might do better against power word: pain.

Unless you can secure a 100% victory after round 1--and I doubt you can, because the wizard can Abrupt Jaunt again--you need to be able to counter these spells to secure a win rate over 50%.


Edit: The feat is Combat Reflexes.

Edit2: A grey elf wizard 1 can have 20 Dexterity and Intelligence with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus, and Greater Spell Focus. +22 Initiative and DC 18 Will save. Combat routine is 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover, preventing an AoO, but doesn't block line of sight, allowing colour spray to go through. That'll get you ~75% chance to win on round one, no problem.

You might want to read the fine print here. It is "as dimension door" which means you can't do anything after using it. You cast, the aoo goes off, you teleport and then auto lose the spell. Way to automatically lose the fight.
edit: that was in conjunction with abrupt jaunt.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You might want to read the fine print here. It is "as dimension door" which means you can't do anything after using it. You cast, the aoo goes off, you teleport and then auto lose the spell. Way to automatically lose the fight.

Is that in the errata? I see this text:

Abrupt Jaunt (conjuration): You teleport up to 10 feet. You can’t bring along any other creatures.

[Calthropstu]

Is that in the errata? I see this text:

Huh. My mistake... I could have sworn it redirected to DD.

With these, the wizard wins every single time he survives to not being flat footed.

[ExLibrisMortis]

With these, the wizard wins every single time he survives to not being flat footed.

Yeah, it's a pretty crazy ability. I'm thinking the fighter might be better off going for ranged attacks. It's easier to have a good Dexterity score, and Abrupt Jaunt doesn't ruin your day. Thrown weapons can be used to AoO, as well. Hit-and-run targetteer fighter with Vital Aim gets Dex to damage (twice, against a flat-footed target) and has two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies. Maybe go with net and harpoon?

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, it's a pretty crazy ability. I'm thinking the fighter might be better off going for ranged attacks. It's easier to have a good Dexterity score, and Abrupt Jaunt doesn't ruin your day. Thrown weapons can be used to AoO, as well. Hit-and-run targetteer fighter with Vital Aim gets Dex to damage (twice, against a flat-footed target) and has two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies. Maybe go with net and harpoon?

Hmmmm. You know. The teleport itself, raw, could trigger a concentration check. Not sure of dc but it would definitely fall under circumstances during casting that would do so. I'm 5 feet away from him and start casting and suddenly I'm now 10 feet further away? Mid cast? That's definitely a trigger.

But blockade just wins it. No AOO means auto spell getting off, which turns our approaching 60/40 going into the fighters favor into a major win for the wizard. Hmmm.

If we make ourselves blind and take blind-fight, and be an elf to be immune to sleep, what does that do to the numbers? The wizard switches to power word pain probably, but we can take a couple rounds. The odds of it being a draw increase dramatically it looks like.

[tyckspoon]

If we make ourselves blind and take blind-fight, and be an elf to be immune to sleep, what does that do to the numbers? The wizard switches to power word pain probably, but we can take a couple rounds. The odds of it being a draw increase dramatically it looks like.

Being blind forces you to move at half speed (Blind Fight partially alleviates this, making it only 3/4 instead) and removes your ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (you can't AoO against something that has total concealment from you), as well as meaning you now need to make Listen checks to try to locate your opponent if they're not being obviously noisy. While it provides a defense against Color Spray, it means 'Power Word Pain, move away, make Move Silently checks' is a lot easier - you risk losing rounds not knowing where your opponent even is, and if you manage to track them down you don't have the threat of an AoO to limit their options.

[rel]

I'm going to answer this in terms of what I see at the table.

Let's start with level 1

My wizard is probably human, I like playing humans and grey elf seems a bit cheesy. I max int, and put con and dex as my second and 3rd stats (+4, +2, +1 seems reasonable). I'm not giving up scribe scroll in a normal game but I'm probably dropping the familiar, too much of a risk of the GM killing it. So I'll spec into conjuration and trade the familiar for immediate magic (abrupt jaunt). I max concentration and my other skills don't really matter. My feats are probably tied up qualifying for a PRC.
In terms of spells, I'm definitely holding 2 castings of colourspray and a grease in my specialisation slot. No room for nerveskitter at level 1

Fighter is a little trickier for me, it was recently pointed out that my definition of 'fighter' is a nearly full caster with 1 or 2 levels of the fighter class who happens to have a high BAB and hits things in melee. Regardless, I'll have a go.

My fighter is also human, see above and I'll probably go into the spiked chain build to use all the bonus feats.
As such I want int 13 so I won't max strength that leaves my con and dex a little higher. +3, +2, +2 and probably a -1 in wis, oh well.
My skills are irrelevant, my feats either go into EWP, expertise, imp trip or maybe combat reflexes with the unchosen feat coming in next level. Let's be nice to poor fighter and go with reflexes.

Fighter has a slight advantage on initiative (+2 vs +1)
hits the wizards AC of 11 on a 7+
And kills the wizard or brings them to 0 if they connect

If my maths is right that's a 0.57*0.7 = 0.4% chance of the fighter winning initiative and killing the wizard in the first round.

if wizard wins initiative they can abrupt jaunt out of range and unleash a colourspray that the fighter saves against on a 16+ (DC15 with a -1 bonus)

that would be 0.43 * 0.75 = 0.32% chance of wizard winning initiative and taking down fighter.

beyond that initial exchange things become more complicated so I'm going to hold off any further analysis however, if we remove the wizards immediate magic (abrupt jaunt) ACF the wizards win chance includes a concentration check which requires a 9 to pass (DC15 +6 bonus)
wizards chance to win 0.43 * 0.6 * 0.75 = 0.19

If the fighter is wielding a greatsword instead of a spiked chain the wizard can step back and no longer needs abrupt jaunt and the initial chance applies regardless.

looks very much down to luck for characters I see in play at level 1

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmmmm. You know. The teleport itself, raw, could trigger a concentration check. Not sure of dc but it would definitely fall under circumstances during casting that would do so. I'm 5 feet away from him and start casting and suddenly I'm now 10 feet further away? Mid cast? That's definitely a trigger.

I was assuming you'd use Abrupt Jaunt before even starting the cast. In this case, it's not avoiding the AoO by interrupting it, it's just a 10' move that gets you out of reach. If it's a fighter with an awlpike and gauntlet, you can just take a 5' step and land in that 10' sweet zone where you're safe.

Blind-Fight doesn't do enough, as tyckspoon laid out, but resisting power word: pain is possible. The easiest way to do it is with pugilist fighter. Apart from their infamous Shake it Off ability, they have the more reasonable Iron Jaw, which gives DR-against-nonlethal equal to Constitution modifier. For a pretty basic arctic human fighter with 14+2 Constitution, that cuts the damage from PWP to about 1 per round. Still, this costs you a fighter feat, and immunity to mind-affecting takes just two feats, so I think the immunity is going to be a better deal.

[Twurps]

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded. Willing Deformity is required for Deformity: Madness. Endurance is required for Diehard. A Human Fighter 1 with two flaws gets five feats, he can't get all of that, there's an opportunity cost. Whichever set he doesn't get, the Wizard uses to beat him. Meanwhile the Wizard only needs to spend four feats on Troll Blooded and Diehard.

If we make ourselves blind and take blind-fight, and be an elf to be immune to sleep, what does that do to the numbers? The wizard switches to power word pain probably, but we can take a couple rounds. The odds of it being a draw increase dramatically it looks like.

(emphasis mine)

Are we doing 'schrodingers wizards' again? How is it the wizard gets to be prepared for any changes in build the fighter has? (And we don't call that metagamy).

A further refinement of the colour spray strategy:

Grey elf wizard 1 can have 6/20/6/20/8/8 stats with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Aggressive, two flaws, Shape Soulmeld (bluesteel bracers), Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence. +22 Initiative and DC 20 Will save. Combat routine is cast nerveskitter > win initiative > 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover without blocking line of sight, so you don't get an AoO to the face. That'll get you ~83% chance to win on round one, no problem (as long as you don't have to get an actual kill to win--if you do, use Greater Spell Focus for a DC 18 Will save).

But they also have Diehard (at least the Wizard does), which means they don't go unconscious at all.

I have seen a lot of PO and TO wizard build pass by on this forum. I can't remember a single one of them having 'die Hard', 'troll blooded', Shape soulmeld and/or particularly sacred vow.
Meanwhile: any fighter suggestions sound pretty close to any advice in other threads. Reach weapon - combat reflexes combo is pretty common, as is getting troll blooded. Even willing deformity I've seen come by (much) more often than a wizard taking diehard.

[ExLibrisMortis]

(emphasis mine)

Are we doing 'schrodingers wizards' again? How is it the wizard gets to be prepared for any changes in build the fighter has? (And we don't call that metagamy).

I have seen a lot of PO and TO wizard build pass by on this forum. I can't remember a single one of them having 'die Hard', 'troll blooded', Shape soulmeld and/or particularly sacred vow.
Meanwhile: any fighter suggestions sound pretty close to any advice in other threads. Reach weapon - combat reflexes combo is pretty common, as is getting troll blooded. Even willing deformity I've seen come by (much) more often than a wizard taking diehard.

I think it's more about exploring how the metagame would develop if these 1v1s were commonplace. It's not meant to imply that these fighters and wizards are typical. Although Abrupt Jaunt, martial wizard for Improved Initiative, and hummingbird familiars are all typical optimization tricks, and nerveskitter, power word: pain and colour spray are standard first-level spell picks (for a wizard who attacks things, less so for a buffer/summoner of course). Shape Soulmeld is a common feat for any character, because there are a zillion things you can get with that feat. Diehard/Troll-blooded and Sacred Vow are unusual picks, I'll grant you that . I did consider going full Vow of Poverty/Vow of Peace, but that's just a big pain with spellbooks and the like.

I'm not sure talking about "typical" fighters is that interesting, anyway. I mean, if we were talking about "typical" first-level fighters and wizards, we'd also have to talk about fighters who have Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush* and maybe +2 Initiative/+1 Will, which is such a bad build for duels that it stops being fun.

That the duel-a-wizard fighter resembles a lockdown fighter just shows that the fighter has one particular good trick to use against wizards.



*Other highlights of "typical" level 1 fighters:
Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge -- standard mounted charger
Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Weapon Focus (longsword) -- Jack B. Quick

[Quertus]

So, dumb question: what doesn't Kauper's Skittish Nerves / Nerveskitter provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO)?

[Doctor Despair]

So, dumb question: what doesn't Kauper's Skittish Nerves / Nerveskitter provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO)?

With Combat Reflexes, it should, I think. However, without combat reflexes, the fighter would be flat-footed until initiative had finished rolling, so he'd be unable to take the AOO.