Wizard vs fighter, low level melee

[Aharon]

So, dumb question: what doesn't Kauper's Skittish Nerves / Nerveskitter provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO)?

Spells with a casting time of 1 immediate action don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity

[Calthropstu]

wait, nerveskitter is an immediate action. You can't use it and another swift action on your turn. Casting nerveskitter kills the teleport and the blockade. Also, it uses up one of the first level wizards 3 spells.

We're back in business. Either the wizard goes into combat without nerveskitter, thus forgoing his +5 initiative bonus, greatly increasing the chance that fighter goes first, or forgoes the ability to prevent AOOs on the first round. Also, nothing seems to say an immediate action spell is not subject to AOO, so the nerveskitter itself is subject to an attack from the fighter.

This pretty much changes the entire dynamic back into the fighter's favor.

[Calthropstu]

Spells with a casting time of 1 immediate action don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity

Where does it say this? I just looked at the srd and could not find it. Quicken spell specifically states it doesn't provoke, but immediate action does not have this text, nor does it specifically inherit from swift action which does.

[Doctor Despair]

Where does it say this? I just looked at the srd and could not find it. Quicken spell specifically states it doesn't provoke, but immediate action does not have this text, nor does it specifically inherit from swift action which does.

Spoiler: Swift Action

Show

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Spoiler: Immediate Action

Show

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So... oddly enough, it seems like an immediate-action spell cast during your turn would not provoke an attack of opportunity, as it would count as a swift action, but an immediate action taken outside of your turn would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is only much like a swift action (but not the same as a swift action). Nerveskitter would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is cast outside of your turn in initiative (as initiative doesn't exist yet).

[Calthropstu]

Spoiler: Swift Action

Show

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Spoiler: Immediate Action

Show

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So... oddly enough, it seems like an immediate-action spell cast during your turn would not provoke an attack of opportunity, as it would count as a swift action, but an immediate action taken outside of your turn would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is only much like a swift action (but not the same as a swift action). Nerveskitter would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is cast outside of your turn in initiative (as initiative doesn't exist yet).

Yes, that is how I read it as well. So nerveskitter opens up an aoo instant death outside of the actual combat. Which leads to only a 1 point bonus on init assuming it's not used.

Ok, let's assume that our opponent does NOT know our build, but knows we cannot get immunity to sleep, power word pain AND color spray, but we can get 2 out of the 3, how does that change the formula? We HAVE to take combat reflexes, that is absolute.

[Doctor Despair]

Yes, that is how I read it as well. So nerveskitter opens up an aoo instant death outside of the actual combat. Which leads to only a 1 point bonus on init assuming it's not used.

Ok, let's assume that our opponent does NOT know our build, but knows we cannot get immunity to sleep, power word pain AND color spray, but we can get 2 out of the 3, how does that change the formula? We HAVE to take combat reflexes, that is absolute.

Did we resolve whether or not the Abrupt Jaunt allows for an attack of opportunity? Certainly it would let it avoid a melee attack of opportunity, but would it trigger an attack of opportunity on its own? They don't get a Hummingbird Familiar if they take it, but we need to establish whether it just ends the encounter against a melee opponent if they have it.

If not, the wizard can five-foot step, then abrupt jaunt out of range of our reach weapon, then has one standard action left to cast a spell.

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

[tyckspoon]

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

This is an open question that I do not believe can be conclusively answered by the rules text. You can give an equally valid argument for yes or no, IMO.

[Calthropstu]

Did we resolve whether or not the Abrupt Jaunt allows for an attack of opportunity? Certainly it would let it avoid a melee attack of opportunity, but would it trigger an attack of opportunity on its own? They don't get a Hummingbird Familiar if they take it, but we need to establish whether it just ends the encounter against a melee opponent if they have it.

If not, the wizard can five-foot step, then abrupt jaunt out of range of our reach weapon, then has one standard action left to cast a spell.

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

See above the text for immediate actions. Done on your turn, it does not provoke as it follows the rules for swift actions. Outside of your turn is where the problem lies. However, I present a separate circumstance: A readied action. A readied action would interrupt the teleport to try and get away. And you can't immediate action because you've already activated your swift.

[Aharon]

See above the text for immediate actions. Done on your turn, it does not provoke as it follows the rules for swift actions. Outside of your turn is where the problem lies. However, I present a separate circumstance: A readied action. A readied action would interrupt the teleport to try and get away. And you can't immediate action because you've already activated your swift.

The rules compendium states that Immediate Action "Cast Spell (1 immediate action casting time)" doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It doesn't explicitly say whether immediate spell-like abilities trigger AoOs, but since quickened spell-like abilities don't, it's reasonable IMO to assume that immediate spell-like abilities don't, either.

[emeraldstreak]

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

Attacks in DnD target things, not coordinates. Movement interrupts obliviate attacks when they move the target out of reach/range, or break Line of Effect.

[Quertus]

So, as of Rules Compendium, Nerveskitter does *not* provoke an AoO?

[Calthropstu]

So, as of Rules Compendium, Nerveskitter does *not* provoke an AoO?

Looks like.

[Doctor Despair]

Looks like.

So a conjuration wizard pretty much wins against a melee build, regardless of if you use reach or not, as they can avoid any AOO. Otherwise, a reach weapon + spiked gauntlet and combat reflexes means the hypothetical fighter will get at least one AOO off, and cause the concentration check to lose the spell, provided the wizard doesn't take the conjuration specialty, which makes it somewhat necessary into a blind matchup; with that being the case, this hypothetical conjuration wizard will beat a melee matchup more often than not. However, a conjuration wizard doesn't get their hummingbird, so I suppose the fighter that doesn't specialize in reach/AOOs has that going for them in the initiative battle.

A further refinement of the colour spray strategy:

Grey elf wizard 1 can have 6/20/6/20/8/8 stats with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Aggressive, two flaws, Shape Soulmeld (bluesteel bracers), Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence. +22 Initiative and DC 20 Will save. Combat routine is cast nerveskitter > win initiative > 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover without blocking line of sight, so you don't get an AoO to the face. That'll get you ~83% chance to win on round one, no problem (as long as you don't have to get an actual kill to win--if you do, use Greater Spell Focus for a DC 18 Will save).

The fighter has an extra feat, so they should be able to benefit from any of the feats the wizard takes, and still have one to spare. If the fighter wields a ranged weapon, they get to use dex as their primary stat, while the wizard presumably (although not necessarily) will be using intelligence. If the wizard is a gray elf, the fighter gets an additional +2 initiative feat, but let's be generous and say it's a human wizard. This leaves us with a +2 advantage to the fighter, providing it is a human wizard with an 18 in dex versus a human fighter with an 18 in dex. Then, we apply Nerveskitter, resulting in that +3 advantage to the wizard with no easy way to circumvent it. If the wizard has at least a 12 in dex, Nerveskitter would even them out.

At level 1, the wizard has 2.5 + con hp, or 5.5 + con if they take toughness (instead of an initiative feat), or 8.5 + con if they take toughness twice as a human. Troll-Blooded doesn't help the wizard here, because if the wizard goes down, the fighter can presumably do at least 1 damage per round to keep it unconscious. The heavy crossbow will do 1d10+4, so without a positive con score and/or toughness feats, the wizard should go down on a successful hit. There may be a more effective ranged weapon, but that seems fine.

Nerveskitter is just such a strong spell choice. Advantage seems to go to the conjuration wizard at level 1 due to that +3 gap in initiative. Without the conjuration specialty, the fighter can use a reach weapon and AOOs to have a pretty decent chance at preventing spellcasting, giving the advantage to the fighter, even though the hummingbird wizard gets a +9 to initiative (+4 for the familiar, +2 for the fighter having to forgo an initiative feat in favor of combat reflexes). In fact, the fighter may as well tank dexterity, giving a bigger advantage to initiative.

[Maat Mons]

If a conjurer takes Abrupt Jaunt, thus losing his familiar, and then takes the Obtain Familiar feat to get it back, can he still select a hummingbird as his familiar?

[Doctor Despair]

If a conjurer takes Abrupt Jaunt, thus losing his familiar, and then takes the Obtain Familiar feat to get it back, can he still select a hummingbird as his familiar?

I'd think so, but that requires caster level 3. Maybe there's a feat to pump caster level by two, but that would mean not taking another initiative feat, which would average out to +2 initiative per feat, which is do-able without the familiar, and so doesn't really change the math

_{edited for clarity}

[Quertus]

Next dumb question: when do immediate actions reset? Can the Wizard abrupt jaunt in round 1 if they have used Nerveskitter?

[Maat Mons]

I believe that swift/immediate actions effectively "reset" at end of turn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An Immediate Action used outside of your own turn take up your next turn's Swift Action.
An Immediate Action taken on your own turn takes up that turn's Swift Action.

So Nerveskitter to get an initiative bonus means you don't get a swift or immediate action on your first turn. If on your first turn you ready an action to cast your spell as soon as the Fighter attacks you, you get to Abrupt Jaunt out of range of his attack and also cast your spell from out of his reach. You're still acting immediately before the Fighter in initiative order.

[rel]

So I expanded on my initial thought experiment and built a spreadsheet to do some statistical analysis.
I left abrupt jaunt aside for now (since it requires some rules adjudication) and assumed that the wizard has 2 copies of colourspray, goes down in 1 hit and auto-loses if both spells fail to connect. wizard and fighter can both manage to drop their attacks reliably (e.g. no fighter running around with eyes closed).

All that said, the interesting variables become initiatives, save DC, will save, wizard AC, fighter to hit, whether concentration is required (reach + combat ref) and concentration bonus.

Here are a few sample scenarios:
(generic wizard vs fighter, fast wizard vs fighter, fast wiz vs spiked chain fighter, fast wiz vs good will save fighter, fast fighter vs generic wiz)

Fighter Init	Wizard Init	Wizard DC	Fighter Will Save	Fighter to hit	wizard AC	concentration	fighter win chance	wizard win chance
+2	+1	15	-1	+4	11	Not required	52%	48%
+2	+6	15	-1	+4	12	Not required	34%	66%
+2	+6	15	-1	+4	12	+6	60%	40%
+2	+6	15	+4	+4	12	not required	52%	47%
+6	+1	15	-1	+4	11	Not required	61%	39%

So yeah, interesting. Anyone want a particular scenario checked?

[emeraldstreak]

An Immediate Action used outside of your own turn take up your next turn's Swift Action.
An Immediate Action taken on your own turn takes up that turn's Swift Action.

So Nerveskitter to get an initiative bonus means you don't get a swift or immediate action on your first turn. If on your first turn you ready an action to cast your spell as soon as the Fighter attacks you, you get to Abrupt Jaunt out of range of his attack and also cast your spell from out of his reach. You're still acting immediately before the Fighter in initiative order.

Ready Actions are declared. The Fighter need not trigger its condition. The Fighter could, instead, deploy marbles in the square of the Wizard, making him flat-footed. Flat-footed creatures cannot use immediate actions. Remember, the Fighter still has the Wizard in reach of Combat Reflexes.

[Aharon]

An Immediate Action used outside of your own turn take up your next turn's Swift Action.
An Immediate Action taken on your own turn takes up that turn's Swift Action.

So Nerveskitter to get an initiative bonus means you don't get a swift or immediate action on your first turn. If on your first turn you ready an action to cast your spell as soon as the Fighter attacks you, you get to Abrupt Jaunt out of range of his attack and also cast your spell from out of his reach. You're still acting immediately before the Fighter in initiative order.

Can you disrupt your readied action with an immediate action?

Text from the SRD:

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.

This implies, at least to me, that nothing can happen between the readied action and the triggering action.

Ready Actions are declared. The Fighter need not trigger its condition. The Fighter could, instead, deploy marbles in the square of the Wizard, making him flat-footed. Flat-footed creatures cannot use immediate actions. Remember, the Fighter still has the Wizard in reach of Combat Reflexes.

They are declared to the DM - your opponents don't get to know what you readied.

[Doctor Despair]

An Immediate Action used outside of your own turn take up your next turn's Swift Action.
An Immediate Action taken on your own turn takes up that turn's Swift Action.

So Nerveskitter to get an initiative bonus means you don't get a swift or immediate action on your first turn. If on your first turn you ready an action to cast your spell as soon as the Fighter attacks you, you get to Abrupt Jaunt out of range of his attack and also cast your spell from out of his reach. You're still acting immediately before the Fighter in initiative order.

Does rolling for initiative consume a player immediate action for its turn, as it necessarily takes place outside of (and, in fact, before) initiative is determined?

I'm also not sure it's appropriate in this situation to account for readied actions, as they require a standard action to perform. If the fighter and wizard can ready an action, why doesn't the fighter just hit the wizard? Or the wizard cast a spell? Presumably because they are barred from taking actions until the fight starts -- which should include taking a standard action to ready an action.

[Calthropstu]

Next dumb question: when do immediate actions reset? Can the Wizard abrupt jaunt in round 1 if they have used Nerveskitter?

If the wizard uses nerveskitter, he opens himself up to an aoo on the first round. Swift actions reset AFTER the turn. In other words, nerveskitter actually DECREASES odds rather than increases. In fact, nerveskitter almost GUARANTEES a loss.


Initiative: nerveskitter.
Round 1: Wizard can't teleport. attempts to cast. Gets attacked by aoo or 50% drops spell.
End of wizard round 1. Regains teleport.
Fighter round 1: Move action. Move to wizard. Readies action: attack when wizard attempts to use teleport ability. Sets up opportunity for AOO.
Nerveskitter opens up a massive opportunity for the fighter. Wizard is far better off without it.

Edit: Keep in mind that at this point the wizard has only 1 spell left. It's do or die time. He fails with his one remaining spell, it's dagger time.

[Aharon]

Does rolling for initiative consume a player immediate action for its turn, as it necessarily takes place outside of (and, in fact, before) initiative is determined?

No, Rolling Initiative is an opposed ability check. Ability checks are treated similar to untrained skill checks. Skill checks often take actions, but some skill checks are instant and
represent reactions to an event. Rolling for initiative is one such check.

I'm also not sure it's appropriate in this situation to account for readied actions, as they require a standard action to perform. If the fighter and wizard can ready an action, why doesn't the fighter just hit the wizard? Or the wizard cast a spell? Presumably because they are barred from taking actions until the fight starts -- which should include taking a standard action to ready an action.

Readying an action might be advantageous to prevent the opponent from successfully performing their action - the one who goes first might choose to ready an action because of that.

If the wizard uses nerveskitter, he opens himself up to an aoo on the first round. Swift actions reset AFTER the turn. In other words, nerveskitter actually DECREASES odds rather than increases. In fact, nerveskitter almost GUARANTEES a loss.


Initiative: nerveskitter.
Round 1: Wizard can't teleport. attempts to cast. Gets attacked by aoo or 50% drops spell.
End of wizard round 1. Regains teleport.
Fighter round 1: Move action. Move to wizard. Readies action: attack when wizard attempts to use teleport ability. Sets up opportunity for AOO.
Nerveskitter opens up a massive opportunity for the fighter. Wizard is far better off without it.

Edit: Keep in mind that at this point the wizard has only 1 spell left. It's do or die time. He fails with his one remaining spell, it's dagger time.

Well, this is the question. Biffonacious assumes that the wizard can use their second round's immediate action in response to the fighter using an attack of opportunity in response to the wizard using his readied action to cast a spell in response to the fighter attacking.

[el minster]

But what if the fighter was an archer with Dex+3 improved initiative, point blank shot, and rapid shot

[Doctor Despair]

If the wizard uses nerveskitter, he opens himself up to an aoo on the first round. Swift actions reset AFTER the turn. In other words, nerveskitter actually DECREASES odds rather than increases. In fact, nerveskitter almost GUARANTEES a loss.


Initiative: nerveskitter.
Round 1: Wizard can't teleport. attempts to cast. Gets attacked by aoo or 50% drops spell.
End of wizard round 1. Regains teleport.
Fighter round 1: Move action. Move to wizard. Readies action: attack when wizard attempts to use teleport ability. Sets up opportunity for AOO.
Nerveskitter opens up a massive opportunity for the fighter. Wizard is far better off without it.

Edit: Keep in mind that at this point the wizard has only 1 spell left. It's do or die time. He fails with his one remaining spell, it's dagger time.

So as long as the fighter has a reach weapon and combat reflexes (or, arguably, so long as the wizard doesn't have access to divinations, and therefore doesn't know what type of fighter they will be engaging and whether they'll have reach), the wizard needs the Abrupt Jaunt. Therefore, we can probably conclude that the wizard will be a conjuration wizard, but will not be using Nerveskitter in the melee-reach matchup.

An initiative-based fighter will have a -3 initiative relative to the wizard (since the wizard can use Nerveskitter here), so advantage to the wizard. If the fighter wins, they shoot him with a heavy crossbow. If the wizard wins, they five-foot step away and cast color spray.

The reach fighter has to give up an initiative feat for Combat Reflexes, but the wizard loses Nerveskitter, so it's a net +3 to the fighter, making them equal in initiative. If the wizard and fighter both pumped dex, in the event of a tie, they'd have to roll again -- still no advantage in terms of initiative.

If the wizard wins initiative, they use Abrupt Jaunt (or five-foot step and blockade, same effect), which apparently doesn't provoke AOOs, putting them 15 feet away -- out of range, since we can't get reach or large size at this WBL, and the fighter needs a will save, and moves away (45 feet away, or 40 feet of movement to be adjacent). If the fighter survives, they double move to get closer (or charge, if there's no blockage) -- and the wizard abrupt jaunts again, out of range. The wizard casts a spell, so another will save, and they can move again... This repeats until the wizard has no more uses of Abrupt Jaunt and/or offensive spell X. Wizard probably wins if it goes first.

If the fighter wins initiative, the wizard will be flat-footed, so no Abrupt Jaunts. They're probably better off five-foot stepping away and just hitting the wizard. If the wizard maxed out dex, and has at least two uses of Abrupt Jaunt, they can't have much con, so 2.5 plus con doesn't add up to much in the face of a two-handed weapon attack. Fighter probably just wins here.

So that seems like 50/50, before accounting for the likelihood of breaking AC/killing the wizard vs the likelihood of surviving X amount of will saves. However, let's account for another hypothetical: a fighter with a guisarme but another initiative feat instead of combat reflexes. The wizard, without divinations, has no way of knowing whether the fighter has combat reflexes or not. The wizard still can't safely cast Nerveskitter, since the fighter might have combat reflexes, but the fighter benefits from the +2 initiative from the freed up feat slot. This gives an advantage to the fighter.

[Lin]

Hello! I saw an interesting discussion, so I made an account to join in.


By RAW, I'm pretty sure that an ECL 1 fighter cannot win at level 1.

Let's assume that Fighter always wins initiative.
Let's also assume that Fighter has 32 starting STR and +4 from Rage, due to being a Proto-Creature Incarnate Construct Dustform Wild Shalarin (or Orc, if we rule that going Dustform and Incarnating back doesn't get rid of Shalarin's Aquatic subtype), for +0LA, +14 STR, +4 to saves vs. Mind-Affecting, and Rage (Ex).
Heck, we could even assume that Fe's using the Fighter ACF that grants EWP, so he's wielding a Longspear and has a Braid Blade in his hair, allowing him to threaten every square within 10ft of him, and allowing him to automatically hit and incapacitate Wizard with any successful attackÂ… because the fighter's power level is completely irrelevant.


Why? Because by RAW, being flat-footed is completely meaningless.

Let's look at what the Rules Compendium has to say pertaining to the Flat-Footed condition (emphasis mine) :

Flat-Footed: A creature that hasn't yet taken an action during combat is flat-footed, not yet able to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC and can't make attacks of opportunity.

[B]Immediate Action
An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time during a round, even when it isn't your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or swift action until after your next turn. You can't use an immediate action when you're flat-footed.

Okay, so what this tells us is that:

1. You're flat-footed if you haven't taken any actions in combat, i.e. you stop being flat-footed when you've taken an action in combat.
2. You can't make AoOs or immediate actions while flat-footed.

Note that this does not prevent you from making any other kinds of actions, assuming you can make them when it isn't your turn.

At the moment, I can only think of one such action...speaking (again, emphasis mine) :

Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. Their impact is so minor that they're considered free. You can perform one or more free actions during your turn. However, the DM can put reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

25 [a footnote for the Free Action, "Speak"]
You can speak even when it isn't your turn. Long speeches aren't free actions.

So, being flat-footed does not stop you from taking free actions, but you normally cannot take free actions on someone else's turn. Speaking is an exception, however, because it explicitly states that you can speak even when it isn't your turn.
Therefore, even when you are flat-footed and it's someone else's turn, you can still speak as a free action. You would now have taken an action in combat, which cures you of the flat-footed condition. This enables you to use immediate actions or make AoOs even if you lose initiative.

Cheesy? Yes. RAW? Also yes.

So, assuming both are ECL 1 and Fighter wins initiative:
Wizard says "Oh s***!" as a free action. Wizard is no longer flat-footed.
Fighter uses a standard action to attack Wizard.
Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt as an immediate action.
Fighter uses a move action to end his turn adjacent to the Wizard.

Sure, Fighter threatens deadly AoOs even if Wizard takes a 5-foot step, but there are a myriad of ways Wizard could go about dealing with this. For example:

If the campaign starts at 1st level and allows retraining, I like to start with Precocious Apprentice (Combust) + Fiery Burst. Fiery Burst is a reserve feat, which grant supernatural abilities and therefore do not provoke AoOs. So if Wizard is like me, he Fiery Bursts and runs. 2d6 fire damage (Reflex half)/round should be enough to take down a 1st-level fighter in 5 rounds (i.e. before you run out of Abrupt Jaunts).

Otherwise, he just readies an action to cast a spell after he uses Abrupt Jaunt. He'll be able to Abrupt Jaunt when Fighter takes his standard action, then immediately cast a spell. Repeat until Wizard wins or runs out of spells. (If Wizard runs out of spells, he readies an action to move after an Abrupt Jaunt, instead, and it shouldn't be too hard to get away.)

Obviously, if the Wizard were to win initiative, he can just Abrupt Jaunt as a swift action on the first round, and there would be similar results. (Wizard shouldn't attempt to cast a spell immediately, as Fighter could say something and proceed to AoO Wizard.)



At ECL 6, on the other hand, I think Fighter has a better chance:

Now, Fighter can be a Proto-Creature Incarnate Construct Dustform Wild Half-Ogre Half-Minotaur Shalarin Fighter 5 (not sure if he can multiclass, but I'd take a dip of Barbarian for Pounce if he can) with Large size, 49 STR, and the ability to threaten everything within 20ft, all for a Level Adjustment of +1. He can also have the Mage Slayer feat now, so Wizard can't cast defensively against him, and he can also have a Ring of Anticipate Teleportation (CL5 Command Word) 1/day, which he's activating at the beginning of each day because the duration is 24 hours.

I don't think Wizard would stand a chance when he appears adjacent to Fighter, even if he wins initiative, when they're both ECL 6… but maybe I'm missing something?

[Calthropstu]

No, Rolling Initiative is an opposed ability check. Ability checks are treated similar to untrained skill checks. Skill checks often take actions, but some skill checks are instant and
represent reactions to an event. Rolling for initiative is one such check.


Readying an action might be advantageous to prevent the opponent from successfully performing their action - the one who goes first might choose to ready an action because of that.


Well, this is the question. Biffonacious assumes that the wizard can use their second round's immediate action in response to the fighter using an attack of opportunity in response to the wizard using his readied action to cast a spell in response to the fighter attacking.

Yes. It's an automatic stalemate. He who acts first loses. So, the fighter readies an action to attack upon teleportation. The wizard readies an action cast upon being attacked. The moment the fighter stops readying to attack, the wizard wins. The moment the wizard takes any action, the fighter wins. Meanwhile, the fighter has infinite move actions. But if the wizard takes a move action that provokes, he's dead. The wizards best option is to stand perfectly still.

[Doctor Despair]

Hello! I saw an interesting discussion, so I made an account to join in.

A bunch of cheese revolving around speaking

Depends on if talking is considered taking an action in combat, to satisfying eliminating the flat-footed condition, or if it's an action outside of combat, which is why it breaks initiative and all other rules we have for combat.

In that case (if we're saying wizards can alway abrupt jaunt no matter what), we'd have to go for the immunity-tanking strategy. As was said on page 1, a human fighter gets 2 feats, 1 fighter feat, and 1 vile feat. With Willing Deformity, Deformity (Madness), Endurance, and Diehard probably just straight-up wins most wizard matchups. You have 14.5 hp vs the Wizard's 2.5 hp, you have immunity to mind-affecting, and if the wizard runs away, you catch up to them with Endurance. The wizard only has two spells per day; they'd have to deal more than 7/spell before the fighter does that much damage.

I suppose instead of Endurance/Diehard, the fighter could Reflexive Psychosis and get immediate-action DR/-, and be confused until the end of their next turn.

Spoiler: Confused Status

Show

A confused character’s actions are determined by rolling d% at the beginning of his turn: 01-10, attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attacking is not possible); 11-20, act normally; 21-50, do nothing but babble incoherently; 51-70, flee away from caster at top possible speed; 71-100, attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject’s self). A confused character who can’t carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. A confused character does not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).

Adds a bunch of variation to how the battle could go, but as long as the fighter returns to the wizard afterward, the wizard would run out of spells super-quickly. With their fighter feat, they could take Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative as icing on the cake, although there's probably better feats in that slot.

[Calthropstu]

So as long as the fighter has a reach weapon and combat reflexes (or, arguably, so long as the wizard doesn't have access to divinations, and therefore doesn't know what type of fighter they will be engaging and whether they'll have reach), the wizard needs the Abrupt Jaunt. Therefore, we can probably conclude that the wizard will be a conjuration wizard, but will not be using Nerveskitter in the melee-reach matchup.

An initiative-based fighter will have a -3 initiative relative to the wizard (since the wizard can use Nerveskitter here), so advantage to the wizard. If the fighter wins, they shoot him with a heavy crossbow. If the wizard wins, they five-foot step away and cast color spray.

The reach fighter has to give up an initiative feat for Combat Reflexes, but the wizard loses Nerveskitter, so it's a net +3 to the fighter, making them equal in initiative. If the wizard and fighter both pumped dex, in the event of a tie, they'd have to roll again -- still no advantage in terms of initiative.

If the wizard wins initiative, they use Abrupt Jaunt (or five-foot step and blockade, same effect), which apparently doesn't provoke AOOs, putting them 15 feet away -- out of range, since we can't get reach or large size at this WBL, and the fighter needs a will save, and moves away (45 feet away, or 40 feet of movement to be adjacent). If the fighter survives, they double move to get closer (or charge, if there's no blockage) -- and the wizard abrupt jaunts again, out of range. The wizard casts a spell, so another will save, and they can move again... This repeats until the wizard has no more uses of Abrupt Jaunt and/or offensive spell X. Wizard probably wins if it goes first.

If the fighter wins initiative, the wizard will be flat-footed, so no Abrupt Jaunts. They're probably better off five-foot stepping away and just hitting the wizard. If the wizard maxed out dex, and has at least two uses of Abrupt Jaunt, they can't have much con, so 2.5 plus con doesn't add up to much in the face of a two-handed weapon attack. Fighter probably just wins here.

So that seems like 50/50, before accounting for the likelihood of breaking AC/killing the wizard vs the likelihood of surviving X amount of will saves. However, let's account for another hypothetical: a fighter with a guisarme but another initiative feat instead of combat reflexes. The wizard, without divinations, has no way of knowing whether the fighter has combat reflexes or not. The wizard still can't safely cast Nerveskitter, since the fighter might have combat reflexes, but the fighter benefits from the +2 initiative from the freed up feat slot. This gives an advantage to the fighter.

True. Once we start going into the realm of tricking the opponent, however, things start to get well into the incalculable territory. We're going build by build, and so far, nothing I can think of beats the 5 foot step + blockade + spell cast + jaunt. Though, this requires abandoning nerveskitter which opens up the initiative race.