Wizard vs fighter, low level melee

[emeraldstreak]

Of course, that's assuming no third party/dragon mag stuff. With third party stuff, I'm pretty sure the wizard wins way more often with Easy Metamagic/Fell Drain/Level 0 no-save no-roll 1 damage spells. Five foot step, blockade, ping with a negative level.

To get Enduring Life and have a chance to draw, the fighter has to give up a feat -- probably madness or tall/EWP -- which lets the wizard either stall out for damage with Abrupt Jaunt again, or use Color Spray to stall out the game until Enduring Life runs out. Then, the wizard has the flight option again, as they could ping the fighter with a negative level from the air and then fly away.

Easy Metamagic is not required. Metamagic School Focus suffices if the wizard manages to meet the requirements.

The Fighter can counter Sonic Snap by being a Whisper Gnome (Silence).

[Darg]

There is no gap in time between an attack roll and damage roll. Abrupt jaunt could be used to preempt the attack but can't be used to waste it.

If a wizard can use a tower shield, the fighter can too. This means if the fighter fails initiative the wizard can't use color spray because it isn't a spread. Upon the fighters turn they could drop the shield and make their attack. At this point abrupt jaunt would provoke and if the fighter has quick draw then they could then make another attack as they haven't rolled their attack yet. And they could always pull out a second tower shield for total cover on the second round.

All in all I think a fighter has a better chance at winning than people are giving them credit for at level 1. The real issue is higher levels, but that is simply the power creep of casters.

[Doctor Despair]

Easy Metamagic is not required. Metamagic School Focus suffices if the wizard manages to meet the requirements.

The Fighter can counter Sonic Snap by being a Whisper Gnome (Silence).

So the wizard would be required to be a specialist in that school, so that would mean...

Conjuration: Acid Splash (requires ranged touch, so not ideal)

Evocation: Sonic Snap/Horizkaul's Cough (foiled by Silence), Ray of Frost (ranged touch), Electric Jolt (ranged touch)

Transmutation: Slash Tongue (fort negates)

If the wizard uses conjuration, they need a ranged touch attack to win the encounter; since one spell slot is for Blockade, the wizard only gets one shot at this. If the wizard goes first, ranged touch (+5 with a strongheart halfling) breaks the fighter's flatfooted AC (10) on a 5, or an 80% success rate. If the fighter goes first, the fighter's AC (as much as 14) means the wizard now needs a 9, or a 60% chance. Those are actually pretty decent odds.

The fighter could trade out EWP and Tall for enduring life and something else -- maybe Improved Initiative or something. We can't get Lasting Life, sadly, since we don't have the feats for Endurance. Since the fighter is just chugging health potions, and the wizard in that scenario is spending at least of their level 1 spells on this fell drain effect, the wizard presumably won't have enough damage to finish the fighter off. At that point, the wizard will probably want to just run away, I suppose.

The fighter could walk to the left of the block and attack the wizard; then, the wizard would run away, triggering an AOO that the wizard could jaunt away from. The wizard could then run, outside of the fighter's range, for a number of rounds equal to their con score, so let's say 18. However, the fighter will be up for rounds equal to their con bonus, so 4 minutes at least. That leaves a little more than 2 minutes left. The wizard isn't going to make their con saves for that long.

It gets a little worse for the non-conjuration wizard, who doesn't have Jaunt to avoid taking AOOs every turn, of course. However, let's set that aside for the moment. It seems like if the fighter takes a negative level from a level 1 spell, unless the wizard has flight (dragon mag), it will result in a draw, as the fighter needs to take Enduring Life.

We had that free feat for Endurance, so we can actually afford to go Whisper Gnome. After all, that forces the wizard into a conjuration focus (and therefore needing to take the the ranged touch attack, instead of automatically inflicting the damage). If we have a psychic fighter who knows they are going to be facing someone with that Fell Drain snap, then if they go first in initiative, they could activate it, and then run down the wizard who took sonic snap. They'd have to down the wizard in 10 rounds (1 min), which seems pretty possible. The odds get a little better for the wizard on AC, as the fighter takes a strength penalty, but the fighter gets a dex bonus, so initiative is a little nicer. Additionally, it cancels the wizard's AC bonus from being small (strongheart halfling).

However, in either case, if the wizard goes first, they can five-foot step and blast us with any of the spells -- no blockade needed.

So this hypothetical fighter is probably a Whispergnome with Enduring Life, Willing Deformity, and Deformity (Madness). Against the Evocation Specialist, the fighter just wins if they go first; the wizard probably draws if they go first.

The wizard is probably a Conjuration Specialist with Fell Drain and Metamagic School Focus, Fell Acid Splash and Blockade prepared. The fighter probably wins or draws if they go first; the wizard probably draws if they go first.

4 minutes is a long time for a wizard to run away from an angry fighter without enough damage to take them down.

...

OK, hear me out. What if instead of Blockade, we use Fatigue. A conjuration wizard with Fell Drain and Metamagic School Focus hits the fighter with a Sunstroke to induce fatigue on a failed fort save. Then, they Fell Acid Splash. Then, they run away. The wizard could have up to 4 Abrupt Jaunts, and the fighter doesn't have reach anymore. They could five-foot step, cast Sunstroke. Then, when the fighter attacks, they Jaunt back. Then, they cast Fell Acid Splash, and Jaunt the fighter's next attack. Then, they run away. If the wizard goes first, the fighter never gets an attack. If the fighter goes first, they get one attack.

Fighter has a fort save (DC11+Wizard Int vs Fighter Con +2), then a ranged touch attack (10 + Fighter Dex vs Wizard Dex[although this could be lower if the wizard goes first and does this first, while the fighter is flat-footed]), and then no check for the wizard to run, as the fighter can't follow. That might be this wizard's best shot, as it actually gives the wizard a chance to win, abeit after two basically 50/50 checks.

There is no gap in time between an attack roll and damage roll. Abrupt jaunt could be used to preempt the attack but can't be used to waste it.

If a wizard can use a tower shield, the fighter can too. This means if the fighter fails initiative the wizard can't use color spray because it isn't a spread. Upon the fighters turn they could drop the shield and make their attack. At this point abrupt jaunt would provoke and if the fighter has quick draw then they could then make another attack as they haven't rolled their attack yet. And they could always pull out a second tower shield for total cover on the second round.

All in all I think a fighter has a better chance at winning than people are giving them credit for at level 1. The real issue is higher levels, but that is simply the power creep of casters.

If the fighter attacks, the wizard immediate action jaunts away. The fighter no longer has an attack, as they used it. If the fighter didn't use it, the wizard didn't jaunt.

You're right that a fighter in total defense with a tower shield can't be color sprayed, although they wouldn't have it like that at the start of combat (just like the wizard didn't have it like that at the start of combat). They also can't attack if they use it for total cover; iirc taking total cover is a standard action. So the fighter goes first, attacks, and draws their shield, and passes. Then, the wizard five-foot steps, and they get color sprayed.

Also: the fighter, the thread has determined has an enormously large chance to win as long as they spent all but their weapons' worth of WBL on healing potions. The wizard just doesn't have enough damage to burn through the potions. Then, the fighter can run down the wizard with their 18 strength, +1 BAB, and at least +6 health.

[Darg]

Using a tower shield as total cover is a free action. The FAQ suggests it should be a standard action, but FAQ is not the leading authority. Either way, as I said, total cover means you can't be hit by color spray. If you don't have any actions prior to the start of the duel, then yes a tower shield lessens in capability.

When your attack succeeds, you deal damage.

There is no "then you deal damage." If you roll your attack and hit, you deal damage. There is no interrupting something that happens simultaneously. Abrupt Jaunt can't be used to evade an attack already rolled and it causes an AoO. You can jaunt before the attack is rolled which means the attack action isn't wasted, but you still generate the AoO if you do it while being threatened. An immediate action doesn't have the preclusion of AoOs that a swift action does even though it makes it so you can't use your swift action for the turn.

[Zarvistic]

You can jaunt before the attack is rolled which means the attack action isn't wasted, but you still generate the AoO if you do it while being threatened. An immediate action doesn't have the preclusion of AoOs that a swift action does even though it makes it so you can't use your swift action for the turn.

Abrupt Jaunt is supernatural, so it wouldn't provoke because of that.

[Darg]

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

[emeraldstreak]

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

Spell-like provoke.

Abrupt Jaunt is supernatural, so it wouldn't provoke because of that.

The Supernatural part can easily be dealt via Supernatural Opportunist. It's the Immediate part that doesn't provoke an AoO.

[Doctor Despair]

Using a tower shield as total cover is a free action. The FAQ suggests it should be a standard action, but FAQ is not the leading authority. Either way, as I said, total cover means you can't be hit by color spray. If you don't have any actions prior to the start of the duel, then yes a tower shield lessens in capability.

Mind-affecting spells are how the wizard wins here, whether it's color spray or another option. Power Word Pain and other targeted friends work through the cover (6d6 (average 21) or 12d6 damage (42) would not be something you want to open yourself up to). You still want the immunity to mind-affecting for this matchup.

When your attack succeeds, you deal damage.

There is no "then you deal damage." If you roll your attack and hit, you deal damage. There is no interrupting something that happens simultaneously. Abrupt Jaunt can't be used to evade an attack already rolled and it causes an AoO. You can jaunt before the attack is rolled which means the attack action isn't wasted

You deal damage if your attack succeeds. I was using it as a term for breaking AC, not successfully rolling your dice. However, as I'm looking at it, it seems you're right that you can't do it in response to declaring an attack, before the die is rolled, like a prepared action. However, functionally, it doesn't change up the matchup, I don't think. The wizard can jaunt before the fighter attacks, forcing them into a second move action rather than an attack, or jaunt out of range before triggering an AOO, in most situations where they would normally jaunt "in response" to the attack.

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

I can't find it in this thread, but I believe someone in the thread pointed to an errata to make it a Su ability. However, someone else pointed out that although the rules on immediate actions seem to suggest that, taken outside of your turn, they would provoke AOOs, while taken on your turn they would not, there is some helpful text in the Rules Compendium.

The rules compendium states that Immediate Action "Cast Spell (1 immediate action casting time)" doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It doesn't explicitly say whether immediate spell-like abilities trigger AoOs, but since quickened spell-like abilities don't, it's reasonable IMO to assume that immediate spell-like abilities don't, either.

Additionally, immediate actions on your turn turn into swift actions, which do not trigger AOOs

The Supernatural part can easily be dealt via Supernatural Opportunist. It's the Immediate part that doesn't provoke an AoO.

The fighter doesn't have the feats to spend on Supernatural Opportunist and it's feat tax, sadly. However, the positive part is that the fighter doesn't need them to win if they just buy a bunch of potions. No one has answered the fact that a fighter who is immune to mind-affecting effects cannot be killed by the normal wizard's damage without using Fell Drain. Even then, that only results in a tie unless the wizard is able to also make the fighter fail their fort save to Sunstroke and avoid their attacks while doing it.

[Twurps]

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

I think we established somewhere upthread that it doesn't provoke?

The rules compendium states that Immediate Action "Cast Spell (1 immediate action casting time)" doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It doesn't explicitly say whether immediate spell-like abilities trigger AoOs, but since quickened spell-like abilities don't, it's reasonable IMO to assume that immediate spell-like abilities don't, either.

So we've been going with that.

Another thing does bother me with this jaunting though. We've been working under the assumption that the fighter needs an exotic weapon. As it needs to threaten the adjacent and further out squared with the same weapon:

Tall grants you 10 feet of natural reach, yes, but unless we're taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, if we attack the adjacent wizard with our armor spikes, that means we're not using our guisarme, so the jaunt to 15 feet would let them dodge the attack. If we attack with a spiked chain, you're right, though. I'm not sure what we could afford to give up for it though.

After thinking about this one, I don't agree. The fighter can have the gloves on and Glaive in hand. Meaning he threatens all squares within his reach. If the wizard provokes while adjacent to the fighter, he can let go of the glaive and attack with the gloves. Letting go of the glaive to attack with his fist is a free action, as is re-grabbing the glaive that he is still holding in his off-hand is also a free action. The rules say the number of free actions should be limited to something 'reasonable', but I think we can all agree 1 is reasonable, or they wouldn't exist. And 1 is all the fighter needs. If the wizard jaunts first, he doesn't have to let go of the glaive. If he doesn't jaunt first, then he has to let go.

The wizard can jaunt before or after casting his spell, but I'm pretty sure he can't jaunt 'during' the casting. So where-ever he starts casting, he has to finish casting, thus eating an AoO.
This doesn't really change the math, since we were using exorcist fighter from dragonmagazine up to now. this just means the last bit of dragonmag can/should now be tossed.

[Sutr]

Question does an entangling breath dragonborn possibly with quicken breath at third help the fighter by giving him something to do with his swift action that may prevent the wizard from casting?

[Twurps]

Question does an entangling breath dragonborn possibly with quicken breath at third help the fighter by giving him something to do with his swift action that may prevent the wizard from casting?

We decided no LA (other than +0) and no RHD. Or it gets to be a war of templates more than wizard vs fighter.

[Darg]

I think we established somewhere upthread that it doesn't provoke?


So we've been going with that.

I don't regularly use the rules compendium so I tend to forget it changes a lot of things that I don't think are changed. Where does it say that immediate action spell-like abilities don't provoke? The only reference I can find is the "provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted" line. There are several locations where it specifically states that spells with a cast time of immediate action don't provoke. Quicken SLA gives a specific exception for a quickened SLA only.

Mind-affecting spells are how the wizard wins here, whether it's color spray or another option. Power Word Pain and other targeted friends work through the cover (6d6 (average 21) or 12d6 damage (42) would not be something you want to open yourself up to). You still want the immunity to mind-affecting for this matchup.

The point was to prevent being made unable to act. If the fighter can't act they can't win.

You deal damage if your attack succeeds. I was using it as a term for breaking AC, not successfully rolling your dice. However, as I'm looking at it, it seems you're right that you can't do it in response to declaring an attack, before the die is rolled, like a prepared action. However, functionally, it doesn't change up the matchup, I don't think. The wizard can jaunt before the fighter attacks, forcing them into a second move action rather than an attack, or jaunt out of range before triggering an AOO, in most situations where they would normally jaunt "in response" to the attack.

Using a charge action doesn't preclude you from changing directions. The rules compendium says you can make an attack after your movement. Making an attack is rolling the dice. If you don't role the dice your movement doesn't have to be over unless you make a declaration that you aren't making an attack. This means the fighter would have plenty of movement left to catch the wizard after the jaunt even if the they wouldn't get an AoO. In a situation where the fighter expended a move action, Quick Draw would still let them make an attack that the wizard wouldn't have an answer for

I can't find it in this thread, but I believe someone in the thread pointed to an errata to make it a Su ability. However, someone else pointed out that although the rules on immediate actions seem to suggest that, taken outside of your turn, they would provoke AOOs, while taken on your turn they would not, there is some helpful text in the Rules Compendium.

Found it. Ok, yeah. Abrupt Jaunt is a Su ability.

Additionally, immediate actions on your turn turn into swift actions, which do not trigger AOOs

They do not turn into swift actions. It only counts as a swift action on your turn. They are clarifying that no matter where in the round it is, you only get one swift or immediate action per round. The phrase "counts as" in this context means taken in place of.

The fighter doesn't have the feats to spend on Supernatural Opportunist and it's feat tax, sadly. However, the positive part is that the fighter doesn't need them to win if they just buy a bunch of potions. No one has answered the fact that a fighter who is immune to mind-affecting effects cannot be killed by the normal wizard's damage without using Fell Drain. Even then, that only results in a tie unless the wizard is able to also make the fighter fail their fort save to Sunstroke and avoid their attacks while doing it.

I like Quick Draw as it let's you cover your bases pretty well and as a human it would still leave you with enough feats to get Supernatural Opportunist. I said earlier that using a tower shield as cover was a free action, but technically speaking the FAQ is the only source that changed it from a "Not an Action" classification. The description doesn't say you have to give up all your attacks nor for how long. "Not an Action"s are done as part of something else. In the case of a tower shield you can use it as total cover in place of the AC at the cost of giving up attacks. Other examples of "giving up" attacks has it as part of an action or until your next turn. You can also voluntarily give up your attacks at any time such as making 2 of your four attacks but not at using the last two. You can give up AoOs. If not using the FAQ, a tower shield will protect the fighter from any non targeted spell whenever they feel like it which is a lot of your fighter made dead spells. This means that you get your normal attacks if you so choose but can retreat behind your shield at any time except between an AoO and the action that provoked it because you have already interrupted the action. Is there a level 1 save or die or HD spell that targets that I can't think of?

[Doctor Despair]

Is there a level 1 save or die or HD spell that targets that I can't think of?

Fell Drain'd, Metamagic School Focus'd Sonic Snap. One negative level, no save, no attack roll.


Edit:
Acid Splash if we want a conjuration focus with it, although that requires a ranged touch attack.

[Calthropstu]

Fell Drain'd, Metamagic School Focus'd Sonic Snap. One negative level, no save, no attack roll.


Edit:
Acid Splash if we want a conjuration focus with it, although that requires a ranged touch attack.

How are you fell draining? that's a level 2 spell. You only have level 1.

[Doctor Despair]

How are you fell draining? that's a level 2 spell. You only have level 1.

It's in the post.

Spoiler: Metamagic School Focus

Show

Prerequisite
Spell Focus (chosen school) or specialist wizard in chosen school,

Benefit
Choose a school of magic for which you have the Spell Focus feat, or the school in which you have specialized. Three times per day, you can reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school. If you prepare spells, you can have only up to three such reduced cost spells prepared at any time.

[Calthropstu]

It's in the post.

Spoiler: Metamagic School Focus

Show

Prerequisite
Spell Focus (chosen school) or specialist wizard in chosen school,

Benefit
Choose a school of magic for which you have the Spell Focus feat, or the school in which you have specialized. Three times per day, you can reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school. If you prepare spells, you can have only up to three such reduced cost spells prepared at any time.

Oh great. So you're dropping all other feats for this. And expending all your resources for one shot. And all we need is resistance 3 to acid and cold. Anyone care to pipe in with something that shuts down the zero level damage spells?

[Darg]

Sonic snap is sonic damage. I personally don't know of a way to get resistance to sonic damage at level 1.

However you can shape soulmeld Spellward Shirt to give you 5-9 resistance.

[Doctor Despair]

Oh great. So you're dropping all other feats for this. And expending all your resources for one shot. And all we need is resistance 3 to acid and cold. Anyone care to pipe in with something that shuts down the zero level damage spells?

Sonic Snap does sonic damage, not cold damage. More power to you if there's a way to block the 1-3 damage pings from these 0-level spells; personally, I'm rooting for the fighter, but I'm rooting for accuracy before that (note: I was among those theorycrafting fighter builds for like the first 3/4ths of the thread). The fighter can just drink potions until the wizard runs out of spell slots with all the other wizard builds mentioned, so the fighter pretty much wins by default if the wizard can't access Fell Drain as far as I'm concerned, unless we build some combat-based melee wizard. Even then, I'm pretty sure the fighter's BAB advantage and HP advantage would bear out a win in most matchups, although I have no idea what that hypothetical combat wizard looks like.

As I said above, the fighter can take Enduring Life and get 4 minutes to down the wizard and make it a draw at least. The wizard doesn't have racial flight, so the wizard needs to be able to escape some other way. The ability to make the fighter fatigued was the only think that came to mind, as that prevents the fighter from running after a fleeing wizard, which is what drew me back to Sunstroke. It requires a fort save, so the fighter will pass most of the time, but if the fighter fails, the wizard can run away while the fighter is stuck to double moves, presumably escaping and leaving the fighter to die.

If there's a way to get 1-3 points of resistance or DR against sonic, acid, cold, and electricity, that leaves Slash Tongue (transmutation) which deals 1 point of damage on a failed fort save, among other minor debuffs. Sudden Transmutaton technically would grant a fly speed, but only for [int bonus] rounds, so it would be terribly helpful unless there was some sort of tall terrain to take advantage of, which is not part of the exercise. However, requiring two fort saves instead of one makes this even less reliable, hence the preference for Sonic Snap if possible.

However, it's notable that even this scenario is very much in favor of the fighter. The wizard isn't taking mage armor in this scenario, so their AC is much lower. Sunstroke requires a fort save, which is the fighter's best save. If the wizard uses Acid Splash, it requires a ranged touch attack, which is still approximately a 50/50 if the fighter goes first, although Sonic Snap is probably preferable if the fighter isn't a Whispergnome. I hope there's a better method of sonic immunity or to negate that 1 damage though, as the fighter needing to spend a turn using their Silence SLA instead of attacking feels pretty bad, and only lasts for 10 rounds anyway.

Edit:

Sonic snap is sonic damage. I personally don't know of a way to get resistance to sonic damage at level 1.

However you can shape soulmeld Spellward Shirt to give you 5-9 resistance.

Of note, that is Spell Resistance for those unfamiliar with the system, not energy resistance.

That's nice for a 40% chance to negate the two spells the wizard needs to cast to win. I think that rules out the Whispergnome fighter (as we need the human/strongheart halfling bonus feat now), but that's fine. We can take Enduring Life (so we don't auto-lose if the wizard Fell Snaps us, and can at least draw most of the time), and Shape Soulmeld for the SR9.

I think we swap out Enduring Life for Shape Soulmeld. Enduring Life makes sure we tie most of the time (the fighter has probably a +6 to their fort save (DC 15 at most), so it's a generous 40% chance they fail their save against Sunstroke, along with the chances the fighter hit the wizard with an attack or an AOO somewhere in there). However, it doesn't help the fighter's winrate -- only cushions their lossrate.

So this fighter-build looks like Shape Soulmeld (Level 1), Willing Deformity (Racial Bonus), Deformity: Madness (Elder Evil Worship), Combat Reflexes (Fighter).
WBL: 60-240
Weapons: Guisarme (9gp), Padded Armor (5gp), and Armor Spikes (50gp)
Rest of WBL: 0-3 Potions of Faith Healing (healing for 13 each, or 0-39hp)

Even if the wizard goes first, they fail their caster-level check on a 7, or 35% of the time. Those numbers look a lot better for the wizard... but what if we swap out the Willing Deformity/Madness combo for Enduring Life/Thrall to Demon (+1 to any one attack roll, saving throw, ability check, skill check, or level check)? At least then we pad our win-loss-draw ratio, and require the wizard doesn't prepare two Sonic Snaps (again, they need to fatigue us to have any chance of winning with this strat).

So if the wizard goes first, 35% of the time the wizard just straight-up loses by failing to break our SR with the negative level. Then, the fighter has to miss their attack (wizard's AC is probably 14, so 45% chance). Then, they have to break our SR again to hit us with Sunstroke (35% chance of failure), and we need to hit our 40% chance (less with our new vile feat) chance to fail our fort save. Then, the wizard has to be able to escape us somehow, but let's assume that's automatically successful, as this is a very small chance anyway. 40% of 65% of 45% of 65% works out to about a 8% chance the wizard wins. If the wizard broke SR on that initial spell, but failed anywhere after, it's almost a guaranteed draw (~57% chance). So...

Wizard goes first (optimal scenario for the wizard) Win (8%), Lose (35%), Draw (57%).

Fighter goes first works the same way, but with an extra attack, so... 40% of 65% of 45% of 65% of 45% (~4%) chance the wizard wins, 35% of 45% chance the wizard draws (~16%), and the rest is fighter wins (~80%).

This math gets better when you consider the wizard doesn't have abrupt jaunt if they're using Fell Sonic Snap, so has to five-foot step, cast defensively, or AC tank to try to cast their spells. If the fighter has that guisarme, the wizard can't five-foot step for safety, and doesn't have combat casting, so fails those a lot more on those two AOOs (35% chance of failure, so a 0.35 multiplier for drawing, and a 0.0175 multiplier for winning...)

Alternatively, the wizard has to use Fell Acid Splash, which requires a ranged touch attack. That's honestly probably better than tanking the AOOs... but the difference is so marginal. Is there a way to get acid resistance at level 1 like that through items or obscure magical locations or things like that?

Fighter comes out ahead even more than they already did.

Edit:

Actually, is it better for the wizard to just do a Reserves of Power, Precocious Apprentice spell at this point and just hope for max damage? 65% chance to cast a spell at caster level 4. On a touch attack, Combust would do 4d8 fire damage with a DC 15 save to avoid catching fire... Racial Fire Resist 5 hurts us there, of course, so we'd do 0-27 damage, average 13, and we just lose if it doesn't finish them, but with the potion-drinking strat, we basically have to finish the fighter in one spell, right? Can't do mind-affecting, the negative level strat has an infinitesimally small chance of working, so that leaves just hoping damage dice are in our favor, right?

Fighter still wins more often than not of course; on average, the damage doesn't kill, if the wizard even gets the spell through the caster level check, and if the wizard wins initiative (or the fighter whiffs their attack), and if the wizard can successfully defensively cast (35% failure chance), and if the wizard breaks the touch AC of the fighter, and if they break SR, and if they roll high enough... Potions, man. Potions, soulmelds, and insanity. Who would have thought it?

Edit:

I see Bane Magic being brought up in another thread. If we forsake the level 2 spells, Hail of Stone would do 4d4 + 2d6 (6-28, average 17). Kills on average, and dodges SR at least. Win initiative or survive fighter's turn, Abrupt Jaunt out of AOO range, Hail of Stone to kill on average, lose if the fighter survives? The wizard can have Mage Armor in this scenario, too. Assuming equal initiative, that puts things back in the wizard's court a little bit. The fighter would need to literally have a few uses of toughness to overcome that, right? Or have the Deformity (Tall) to make the wizard defensively cast after the jaunt. This requires the wizard to specifically only be able to defeat this specific fighter's type (probably humanoid) though, so it definitely doesn't beat ALL fighters. It does seem to be the only wizard that somewhat reliably beats that fighter though, while that fighter build actually seems like it beats most wizards most of the time.

Edit:

Okay, so back for some math.

Wizard goes first: They abrupt jaunt out of the fighter's natural reach and, if needed, move out of the fighter's extended reach, using a tower shield for total cover against reach attacks. They drop the shield as a free action and cast the Bane Magic'd Reserves of Power'd Hail of Stone. 100% chance of success so far. Then, the fighter takes damage: 6-28, average 17. The fighter has 14 hp without toughness, but if we throw on two copies of toughness, that would give them 20hp. "Average" dice means a 58% chance of hitting that number or greater, and to be honest, I'm not sure exactly sure how to calculate the mixed and multiple die roll percentages. Suffice to say that it's less likely to beat average dice the more die we have -- probably well under 50%. If the fighter lives, they charge the wizard (who is 45 feet away, or 35 if a Strongheart Halfling).

However, if the fighter takes two instances of toughness, they no longer have an immunity to mind-affecting spells or SR, so the wizard can hit them with a Bane Magic'd Power Word Pain instead. That would do 1d6 + 2d6 damage per turn for 4d4 turns (average 10 turns), or an average of 30d6 (30-180, average 105). That guarantees a draw, at least, and allows the wizard to focus entirely on defense apart from that. Total defense and hope the fighter whiffs until the 10.5 damage/round takes him down, I suppose.

Fighter goes first: They swing at the wizard and have to break AC 19 (flat-footed AC with tower shield). 35% chance to hit (+5 to hit), downing the wizard. Then, the wizard abrupt jaunts and casts their spell of choice with Bane Magic (buff Hail of Stones or PWPain), with some very large chance to kill or, if the fighter has two instances of toughness, guaranteeing at least a draw with PWP. Upon surviving, the fighter then wins if the wizard used Hail of Stones, or has another chance to swing (40% chance to hit) before the Power Word Pain would probably down him.

Bane Magic helps the wizard a lot unless the fighter can get a source of DR of some sort.

I wonder if it would be better, for the fighter who took two instances of toughness, to use Sudden Maximized Power Word Pain instead. 6 damage every round instead of 3-18 damage every round (average 10.5)

Of course, that's setting aside the fact that a fighter with two toughness feats is also vulnerable to the Fell Snap build again, having lost their Enduring Life and Spell Resistance.

So a very tough wizard to beat would be:

Class: Conjuration Specialization Wizard
Race: Strongheart Halfling
Spells Known: Power Word Pain, Hail of Stone, Mage Armor
Feats: Reserves of Power, Bane Magic (Fighter's Type)
Equipment: Tower Shield, Spellbook

Fighter needs either immunity to mind-affecting (eats two feats) or SR to avoid PWP, and toughness with 18 con to survive Hail of Stone on average. That leaves them with their fighter feat to spare for Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative or something. I suppose the fighter might end up looking something like this:

Class: Fighter
Race: Fire-Variant Human (Fire Resistance 5, Bonus Feat)
Feats: Shape Soulmeld (for SR against Power Word Pain, negative levels, etc), Toughness (for HP against Super Hail of Stone), Thrall to Demon, Improved Initiative
Equipment: Tower Shield, Guisarme, Padded Armor, Armor Spikes, 3 potions of Faith Healing

Edit

Is there anything we can get from Bind Vestige or Martial Study that would give us more effective HP than Toughness at level 1? I don't think the vestiges offer anything helpful for this barrier to the fighter

[Vizzerdrix]

Where is the level 1 fighter getting the gp for potion spam? Why wouldn't the wizard counter with partial charge wands?

[Calthropstu]

Where is the level 1 fighter getting the gp for potion spam? Why wouldn't the wizard counter with partial charge wands?

The wizard gets half what the fighter gets for starting gold. Fighter gets 6d4*10 gp (150 avg) while the wizard gets 3d4*10 (75 avg)

Wizard is buying other stuff in these builds (one build buys him a tower shield)

A fully charged wand is 750 gp. Divide by 50 and you get 15. You have max 5 wand charges. Fighter has max 6 healing potions. You lose on number. However, you're losing your move action to draw the wand. Using a wand does not provoke, but since a wand is not technically a weapon, you provoke when you draw the wand. Unless you want to have all 5 charges on one wand. Which then opens up to it being stolen by the fighter.

*sigh* Can't think right now, calling it quits.

[emeraldstreak]

Why wouldn't the wizard counter with partial charge wands?

You'll need to cite a rule for buying these.

[Calthropstu]

You'll need to cite a rule for buying these.

It's located in the dmg. I don't have access at the moment.

[Vizzerdrix]

It's located in the dmg. I don't have access at the moment.

A cure light wounds potion has a market price of 50 gp. What I am not understanding is how the fighter can afford 6 potions. Did I miss something? I will re-read the thread if I did.

I would also like to offer up the aleax from BoED as a method of gaining a tiny amount of SR. I know it is a bit of a tough fight, but it of an uncommon enough tool that I wanted to mention it.

[Doctor Despair]

A cure light wounds potion has a market price of 50 gp. What I am not understanding is how the fighter can afford 6 potions. Did I miss something? I will re-read the thread if I did.

Afaik the fighter can get 3 potions, but the health granted from them is enough to survive the average damage from all the wizard's spell-slots (assuming the fighter has an immunity to Power Word Pain through Deformity (Madness)) -- until the wizard is built using Bane Magic (fighter's subtype), allowing them an extra 2d6 on every spell. Then, the wizard has a chance to one-shot the fighter, which seems to be the best way to handle this.

Also, the fighter could use potions of Faith Healing as a strict upgrade to Cure Light Wounds, which is basically just Cure Light, but at max value for the d8 every time, providing the potion was made by someone of the same faith as you.

I would also like to offer up the aleax from BoED as a method of gaining a tiny amount of SR. I know it is a bit of a tough fight, but it of an uncommon enough tool that I wanted to mention it.

So if this fighter can defeat an Aleax of itself, it would gain SR 1, as the Aleax has the same amount of hitdice as the base creature, right? If the fighter and wizard are the same level, the wizard won't be able to fail the check. :/ It is a neat thought though, and if we were using level adjustment races or templates in the exercise, it could be a way to discourage the wizard from taking anything with a level adjustment (as the wizard would then be able to fail the check). With regard to the other stats, the wizard can gain the same initiative bonus as the fighter from the trick, and the +2 AC bonus probably helps the wizard more than the fighter (as the wizard isn't making attack rolls for these effects). However, as you said, it's a tough fight; I'm not sure either character would be able to easily defeat an Aleax. The wizard, using the same tricks it's using on the fighter, wouldn't deal 20 damage on average (its Aleax's hp), so will die most of the time on the following rounds -- and the Aleax has the same spells and feats, so will 100% one-tap the wizard in the following round.

[Anthrowhale]

Reserves of Power requires Iron Will as a prerequisite.

[emeraldstreak]

Reserves of Power requires Iron Will as a prerequisite.

True. The best the wizard can do is be a human with Bane Magic(humanoid:human) and Bloodline of Fire. That removes Strongheart halfling option for the wizard.

Hilariously, the fighter can be Strongheart to deny Bane Magic.

[Anthrowhale]

Also, I don't believe "fire-variant humans" are first party. See here.

[Doctor Despair]

Also, I don't believe "fire-variant humans" are first party. See here.

They're from Unearthed Arcana, as I recall, in the same chapter as LA buy-off.

[Anthrowhale]

They're from Unearthed Arcana, as I recall, in the same chapter as LA buy-off.

In Unearthed Arcana there are fire-variant elves and fire-variant hobgoblins and specific language forbidding elemental-variant humans.

[Doctor Despair]

In Unearthed Arcana there are fire-variant elves and fire-variant hobgoblins and specific language forbidding elemental-variant humans.

If the wizard is using a fire-spell, we can take Bind Vestige for Aym instead of toughness anyway.

True. The best the wizard can do is be a human with Bane Magic(humanoid:human) and Bloodline of Fire. That removes Strongheart halfling option for the wizard.

Hilariously, the fighter can be Strongheart to deny Bane Magic.

Halflings are humanoids, too, so the fighter being a Strongheart Halfling would still be vulnerable to the same Bane ability. However, again, in this matchup, the wizard has "Bane Magic (Fighter Type)" of whatever the fighter has, to represent the peak wizard build against that build of fighter.

If we went with Bloodline of Fire, we'd have to use a fire spell, which leaves exclusively Burning Hands. We'd cast it at caster level 3, or 3d4 (reflex half), subject to the fighter's Fire Resist 5. However, in that cast, the fighter can swap out Toughness for Bind Vestige and bind Aym to get fire resist 10. Damage with BoF and Bane Magic on a failed save (which is probably about 50% chance) would be 0-14 (average 4.5) 0-12 fire damage (average 0) + 0-12 regular damage (average 7); on a successful save, it'd be 0-2 (average 0) it'd just be the 012 (average 7) damage. Our average fire damage needs to be at least 11 to consistently do damage through fire resist 10, or something like 3d6 at least.

Is there a better option to boost damage? I think we want to avoid relying on fire damage (due to the fighter's access to Fire Resist 10), so our choice would be to use Bane Magic + something else...

Maybe Shocking Grasp as the chassis and reserves of power? 4d6 on a melee touch attack with a possible bonus to the attack roll if the DM rules the fighter is wearing or carrying "a lot of metal." That's 14 damage, maybe more if we find another + damage feat. ["Reserves of Power has a prereq," he repeated to himself for the fifteenth time...]

Edit: And then there's Spell Resistance again... It has to be Bane Magic + some other damage feat, I think, and I'm not sure there's any other combo at this level that does that much damage.

That puts us back with the negative level build and hoping the wizard passes two checks to defeat the fighter's spell resistance, the fighter fails the check to be fatigued, and the fighter fails all their attack rolls despite the wizard not being able to have Mage Armor.