So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

[Darth Paul]

I've often felt a little sorry for Redcloak, even back to the early strips when he was just a put-upon Dilbert-equivalent to Xykon's Pointy-Haired Boss.

Is the question, "Do I feel a little more sorry for him now, after reading strip 1206?"

.... not really...

Just amused at the way he and Durkon are suddenly treating their relationships with their deities as a bromantic comedy.

[Throknor]

Just amused at the way he and Durkon are suddenly treating their relationships with their deities as a bromantic comedy.

I don't see it that far, but viewed with his previous relationship with Malack* (and possibly even the one with Hilgya) it seems to be that he relates to other clerics on a different level than non-clerics. Even the scene** of the clerics just trying to get by shows that even when they just fought each other they have something in common to keep them civil and working together. This is clearly enough of a starting place for Durkon and Redcloak to civilly discuss matters. Even for Redcloak who has barely had anyone to really talk to over the years.

And this is something Roy just doesn't understand. It's a toss-up whether Xykon or Roy will be the one to interrupt the meeting. I expect Roy, but having Redcloak secretly resurrect Durkon after Xykon kills him would be a twist...


* To be clear, Durkon didn't care too much that Malack might have been following an evil god. He just viewed the vampirism as separate and unnatural, perhaps influenced by seeing it happening. It may be that if he'd discovered it at the palace he might have rationalized it away but we'll never know for sure.

** https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html

[Jasdoif]

* To be clear, Durkon didn't care too much that Malack might have been following an evil god. He just viewed the vampirism as separate and unnatural, perhaps influenced by seeing it happening. It may be that if he'd discovered it at the palace he might have rationalized it away but we'll never know for sure.

On this point....

Elan is human. Tarquin is human.
Durkon is a dwarf. Malack is a vampire.

Call it what you will, but to absolutely refuse to associate or compromise with an individual based on preconceived notions of their activities by their race (or type, or affliction, or whatever you want to call it) is still racist.

Yes, it is. Good thing that's not what Durkon is doing.

It is not a "preconception" that Malack was in the middle of draining Belkar's blood by force, or that Malack just admitted to benefiting from the executions that he himself helped put into place. And as I mentioned in the main discussion thread, Durkon is not JUST reacting to Malack's vampirism here; a few strips ago, he was willing to argue with Haley that Malack couldn't possibly team up with Nale to seize the Gate—a belief he has just had disproven.

If Durkon had been sitting in Malack's study drinking tea with him, recognized what was in it, and jumped up and yelled, "Yer a vampire! I must kill ye!" then that would be racism, because there would be no evidence that Malack was at all a threat to anyone, anywhere. That is not what is happening in this scene.

Really? Because in the strip right before this, Durkon immediately assumes upon learning Malack is a vampire that he goes around drinking the blood of the innocent.

Malack does not know Belkar at all. He does not know that Belkar is not innocent, and Durkon knows that Malack does not know.

[Darth Paul]

I don't see it that far,...

To clear it up, I'm talking about the last 2 panels of the comic, where Durkon and RC are talking about the Dark One as if he's playing hard to get. "I try to give him his space... Maybe he doesn't want to ruin the friendship..."

[Psyren]

I just wanted to point it out that you do not need to be dead to speak directly with your deity, as Durkula did it during his brief unlife. So it seems to be a choice of the Dark One not to directly speak to Redcloak, not something that can't be.

Still the theological reveletion passed by Jyrix should count somewhere.

Greg doesn't technically disprove the "you don't need to be dead" theory

But we can infer that, prior to dying, Durkon never had any contact with Thor that direct before - "Och, ye nev'r answer those!"

[understatement]

Greg doesn't technically disprove the "you don't need to be dead" theory

But we can infer that, prior to dying, Durkon never had any contact with Thor that direct before - "Och, ye nev'r answer those!"

Maybe the TDO has never answered any of Redcloak's communes despite him being his high priest, which would be pretty unusual.

[woweedd]

I mean...I've always felt kinda sorry for him. dude's backstory is DEPRESSING. Doesn't excuse any of the things he's done, but still.

[Peelee]

Maybe the TDO has never answered any of Redcloak's communes despite him being his high priest, which would be pretty unusual.

Would it be, though? For all we know, Hel's relationship with her high priest was the unusual one (and, given the circumstances, I think that is indeed the case).

[understatement]

Would it be, though? For all we know, Hel's relationship with her high priest was the unusual one (and, given the circumstances, I think that is indeed the case).

I assume that each god told their high priest where the godsmoot was, and that Odin told his high priest of the prophecy regarding Durkon. And Redcloak does state he has spells that can request advice, not that the Dark One ever gave him any.

I mean...I've always felt kinda sorry for him. dude's backstory is DEPRESSING. Doesn't excuse any of the things he's done, but still.

The part where

Spoiler: SOD

Show

where he's holding his brother and sees his sister get killed

is pretty distressing, yeah.

[Peelee]

I assume that each god told their high priest where the godsmoot was, and that Odin told his high priest of the prophecy regarding Durkon. And Redcloak does state he has spells that can request advice, not that the Dark One ever gave him any.

None of which indicate the Hel's relationship with the vampire was not unusual.

[understatement]

None of which indicate the Hel's relationship with the vampire was not unusual.

I think it'd be pretty unusual if you, a high priest, never had any of your communes answered by your god for more than three decades. That's what I assume Redcloak is saying here -- his god's end has been completely silent, and the "indirect communication" comes from being granted spells and Jirix's message.

At the very least, the other High priests appear to have a direct link of communication to their gods, even if it's brief. I don't think the Hel-HPoH is standard, due to how extensively they talk, but they still have a link of communication.

[Lexible]

I expect Roy, but having Redcloak secretly resurrect Durkon after Xykon kills him would be a twist...

You have it backward: Durkon secretly resurrecting Redcloak after Xykon (or Roy) kills him would be the twist that (a) gets Redcloak the opportunity to speak with The Dark One, and (b) to develop trust that Durkon and Thor are serious in their offer to work together with RC and TDO.

[Dion]

I assume that each god told their high priest where the godsmoot was, and that Odin told his high priest of the prophecy regarding Durkon

Sure, but that doesn’t mean any of the gods spoke directly to their high priests. It just means they communicated the information somehow*

Based on the gods behavior toward their high priests at the godsmoot, I get the impression that a direct face to face conversation with your god might be unusual, even for a high priest.

*talking dolphins. For purposes of this post they post with porpoises.

[Peelee]

Sure, but that doesn’t mean any of the gods spoke directly to their high priests. It just means they communicated the information somehow*

*talking dolphins. For purposes of this post they post with porpoises.

On purpose?

[understatement]

Sure, but that doesn’t mean any of the gods spoke directly to their high priests. It just means they communicated the information somehow*

Based on the gods behavior toward their high priests at the godsmoot, I get the impression that a direct face to face conversation with your god might be unusual, even for a high priest.

*talking dolphins. For purposes of this post they post with porpoises.

How would they porpoisefully communicate the information somehow? Based on the info in this comic I'm interpreting RC's words as that he has never gotten any sort of comm from his god at all, thus "not directly."

[Dion]

I'm interpreting RC's words as that he has never gotten any sort of comm from his god at all, thus "not directly."

TDO sent Redcloak an indirect communication through Jirix.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not really, no.

[Mariele]

How do you mean? Are we not considering giving someone a message to pass along as communication? If I give the mailman a letter to someone I've met but never actually spoken to, and they receive it, have I not communicated with them?

[understatement]

TDO sent Redcloak an indirect communication through Jirix.

How do you mean? Are we not considering giving someone a message to pass along as communication? If I give the mailman a letter to someone I've met but never actually spoken to, and they receive it, have I not communicated with them?

Yeah, sorry, I should have worded it better. He hasn't received any direct comm, while Durkon and various High priests have. That doesn't speak too well of the Dark One.

[Peelee]

Yeah, sorry, I should have worded it better. He hasn't received any direct comm, while Durkon and various High priests have. That doesn't speak too well of the Dark One.

Again, I don't think it does. Durkon didn't get any direct communication until he died and went to quite literally meet his maker. Various High Priests got communication in the form of "Godsmoot, location and time", which presumably every single deity gave out all at once, probably in accordance with existing protocols. Odin, a god of prophecy, gave out a prophecy. Hel communicated directly with her only priest which is a rare occurrence, to say nothing of a high-level one, who also was in position to end the world and tip the scales in her favor virtually immediately. That seems like one hell of a unique situation, and even then, it could be achieved by a Commune spell, which Durkon has tried with Thor to no avail until Thor explicitly wanted to talk to him, which Durkon would have never known about had Thor not told him when he, ya know, died. TDO could be perfectly willing to communicate with RC via Commune currently, we have no way of knowing unless RC casts it.

[Roland Itiative]

Honestly, the fact TDO has never talked to Redcloak directly kinda makes me wonder if there isn't something weird going on there. Not only is RC a high priest, rather than a regular cleric, but he has dedicated his entire life to a mission that should be of prime importance to his god. Redcloak definitely feels like something closer to a Durkula than a pre-death Durkon in terms of his position and importance of his mission to his god.

This information seemed a little too weird to just be the setup of a joke. Maybe TDO doesn't actually look like we believe he does, or some other sort of deception is going on there, requiring him to rely on more indirect methods of communication.

[Peelee]

Honestly, the fact TDO has never talked to Redcloak directly kinda makes me wonder if there isn't something weird going on there. Not only is RC a high priest, rather than a regular cleric, but he has dedicated his entire life to a mission that should be of prime importance to his god. Redcloak definitely feels like something closer to a Durkula than a pre-death Durkon in terms of his position and importance of his mission to his god.

This information seemed a little too weird to just be the setup of a joke. Maybe TDO doesn't actually look like we believe he does, or some other sort of deception is going on there, requiring him to rely on more indirect methods of communication.

Thor was there to personally meet Durkon and said, "seriously, we need to talk." And the thing he needed to talk to Durkon about was ending the infinite cycle of worlds being destroyed by capitalizing on what may be their only chance in billions of cycles, which seems like it's somewhat important. And still he didn't say anything until Durkon was in the afterlife. Similar to how TDO talked to Jirix in the afterlife. And Thor said that when Durkon is ready to proceed, he should cast Commune, which would be odd if Thor could just tell him stuff all willy-nilly.

Seems perfectly in line to me.

[Fyraltari]

I assume that each god told their high priest where the godsmoot was, and that Odin told his high priest of the prophecy regarding Durkon. And Redcloak does state he has spells that can request advice, not that the Dark One ever gave him any.

And don’t forget that Thrym told his second most powerful priest to gather troops and stop an airship at a certain mountain range. Doubt there’s any protocol for that.

Hilgya also says that Loki answered her prayers about Durkon’s location which could be interpreted as her making a successful roll on a divination spell (with Loki nudging things in her favor) but the fact that she didn’t know Durkon was a vampire but did know that some people were going to fight him and that these people were gathering at Thor’s temple make me think Loki himself did talk to her personally.

[bravelove]

Yeah it definitely tugged at my heartstrings less the god part more the 35 years part though

[rbetieh]

Im confused, I thought the Dark One isnt talking to anyone right now....At least no gods apparently.

He knew Jirix was getting a Rez, so he gave the guy some encouragement, but thats it.

I just figured that this is how he runs his shop. redcloak being jealous that his god isnt as personal as another god is just redcloak reverting back to his old Smithers self.

[dancrilis]

When your familiar is smarter than you ... you may be a sorcerer.

In fairness for a sufficent epic level wizard your familiar will also likely be smarter then you.

[KorvinStarmast]

Still the theological reveletion passed by Jyrix should count somewhere.

I think that the 'don't screw this up' message indicates that TDO is unhappy with his HP.
TDO has particular goals. He needs a superb agent/subordinate to carry them out. Reddy has subordinated himself time and again to a non-Goblin, powerful lich/sorcerer whose goals do not align very well with TDO's goals. Yes, Redcloak can convince himself that he's working from the inside and will leverage the help he needs from Xykon to (maybe) achieve TDO's objective, but I am going to guess that TDO feels that (1) style counts and (2) Reddy's style is not pleasing to him. Reddy's betrayal of his brother (and other goblins) might well bother a martially attuned deity (TDO was a very successful war leader before his ascension, if I remember the lore on him correctly). Reddy's clumsy and balky progress toward the culmination of the plan may be putting the plan in jeopardy to a greater extent than Reddy realizes, but from TDO's perspective it's probably as obvious as horns on a minotaur.
TDO is doubtless aware that The Red Cloak was passed down to Reddy not due to him being the best candidate, but in an act of desperation to keep the red-cloak-based hope going at all while the Paladins were trying to find it and kill its bearer and thus end the threat that The Red Cloak represented to their nation. (The paladins gooned it up, Gobbotopia exists, but to one extent or another Reddy is more lucky than good - Miko, through her screw up, turned his and Xykon's defeat into victory in the Azure throne room). I am pretty sure that TDO noticed that his best hope, his Red Cloak bearer, even with an epic level lich as an ally, had to rely on the enemy being a twit to keep the plan going forward. That is hardly confidence inspiring.

I mean...I've always felt kinda sorry for him.

Some of his problems are self inflicted wounds, per SoD. Others of his problems are in the category "Life's tough, wear a helmet." The origin story of his clan / family being wiped out is certainly tragic.

You have it backward: Durkon secretly resurrecting Redcloak after Xykon (or Roy) kills him would be the twist that (a) gets Redcloak the opportunity to speak with The Dark One, and (b) to develop trust that Durkon and Thor are serious in their offer to work together with RC and TDO.

I like where you are going with this thought.

In fairness for a sufficent epic level wizard your familiar will also likely be smarter then you.

If you are referrring to V, I'd say that Blackwing is more wise, perhaps, not smarter. My reference in the sorcerer joke is based on the Sorcerer being a charisma based caster, not an int based caster ...

[dancrilis]

If you are referrring to V, I'd say that Blackwing is more wise, perhaps, not smarter. My reference in the sorcerer joke is based on the Sorcerer being a charisma based caster, not an int based caster ...

It was more a comment on Epic Rules which will likely have a wizard familiar outstrip said wizard in intelligence eventually - the Wizard can stay ahead of the familiar* but they likely need to spend a fair chunk of epic feats gaining Intelligence.

*which depending on if Familiars gets HD feats they might also buy - I don't think they get HD feats though (haven't found a clear answer).

[KorvinStarmast]

It was more a comment on Epic Rules

That went right over my head, then, as I never played 3.5e epic rules ... thanks.

[Dion]

Yeah, sorry, I should have worded it better. He hasn't received any direct comm, while Durkon and various High priests have. That doesn't speak too well of the Dark One.

To be fair, in the comic only the HPoH is actually shown to have direct communication.

For all we know, the other gods communicate by sending imps, or celestials, or Eugene.