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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Aye, that's a biggie.
    Especially for this one
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    Yes, it’s possible. I think “existence requires imprisoning the soul of the body’s original owner and denying it passage to the afterlife” would also negatively impact alignment.

    But I agree that it is possible for a vampire to be non-evil. I wasn’t suggesting that they should be killed on sight.
    Except the vampires in Twilight. And Vampire Diaries. And any vampire that isn't Spike. (Or maybe Angel, but only on his own series.) They should be killed on sight. They cause way more drama than they're worth. Safest to just stake 'em first thing and get it over with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    Yes, it’s possible. I think “existence requires imprisoning the soul of the body’s original owner and denying it passage to the afterlife” would also negatively impact alignment.
    You're assuming the original owner is truly a hostage in all cases too.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Except the vampires in Twilight. And Vampire Diaries. And any vampire that isn't Spike. (Or maybe Angel, but only on his own series.) They should be killed on sight. They cause way more drama than they're worth. Safest to just stake 'em first thing and get it over with.
    Hey, let people enjoy what they enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're assuming the original owner is truly a hostage in all cases too.
    Wether or not one enjoy the situation has no bearing on wether or not one is a prisoner. It’s true that they aren’t hostages, though, the vampires have no intention of releasing their hosts in exchange for concessions.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    I’m always curious about what afterlife that vampire’s host would go to. If you’re Neutral-to-Good your whole life (not because you really want to be, but because you’re supposed to be), and then, after being killed and having minimal-to-no capacity to influence the vampiric spirit in your body, you passively enjoy its actions...what would that mean for alignment? Would enjoying Evil activities that you have no capacity to prevent shift the dial?
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2020-07-10 at 11:43 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’m always curious about what afterlife that vampire’s host would go to. If you’re Neutral-to-Good your whole life (not because you really want to be, but because you’re supposed to be), and then, after being killed and having minimal-to-no capacity to influence the vampiric spirit in your body, you passively enjoy its actions...what would that mean for alignment? Would enjoying Evil activities that you have no capacity to prevent shift the dial?
    I'm reminded of Paarthurnax from Skyrim who asks you whether it's more moral to be an innately good person to whom altruism comes naturally, or to be born with strong selfish traits but to overcome those in the pursuit of good.

    I'd guess that for Ponchina's host she'd still be considered Good in the end, although maybe not if she'd had the opportunity to help her vampire commit atrocities with suggestions and ideas.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Except the vampires in Twilight. And Vampire Diaries. And any vampire that isn't Spike. (Or maybe Angel, but only on his own series.) They should be killed on sight. They cause way more drama than they're worth. Safest to just stake 'em first thing and get it over with.
    it's the only way to be sure.
    The vampires in Love at First Bite might be an exception ...
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    However, Doylistically, I can’t see a good reason for an author to invent that.
    It'd be the same as establishing any hard restriction: you would do so when your story's core question is about something derived from it, and the story would be undercut if that question was invalidated.

    From the external "are the people you knew who are now a constant danger to those around them, still 'the people you knew'?", to the internal "how much is defiance of your nature worth in the cost to others?", to the expansive "if the chances of resistance change from 'impossible' to 'nigh impossible', are the world's adaptions now worse than the thing they were intended to prevent?", to the subversive "what if the truth might not be as true as expected?"; there are all sorts of questions that (depending on how the story is intended to answer them) could benefit from at least starting from a point of objective truth.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    it's the only way to be sure.
    I think that's nuking the entire site from orbit? A little more extreme, but along similar lines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    RatElemental's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    As I've mentioned before, it might be possible to free the soul fro ma vampire in a way other than killing them. Researching how to do that being a thing a good vampire might pursue. Once you establish souls can be affected by magic, then you open the door to different magic affecting them in different ways.

    For a hypothetical being that has a physiological need to kill sapient beings, specifically, I'm having trouble imagining that. It would have to be an intrinsic part of them that can't be overcome in any way, not even changing them into a different form. And their diet would have to be intrinsically impossible to get anywhere else, or if you did get it anywhere else it would have to be effectively morally the same, such as needing to eat the soul itself.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-07-10 at 03:21 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wether or not one enjoy the situation has no bearing on wether or not one is a prisoner.
    I didn't say it did. I was responding to "negatively impacts alignment."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    How has the thread gone on this long without anyone pointing out that Durkon has spoken to Thor before his death?
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    How has the thread gone on this long without anyone pointing out that Durkon has spoken to Thor before his death?
    And you *almost* didn't bring that up, but here we are.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I didn't say it did. I was responding to "negatively impacts alignment."
    And I was responding to the notion that not every host is "truly a hostage".

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're assuming the original owner is truly a hostage in all cases too.
    Wether or not one enjoy the situation has no bearing on wether or not one is a prisoner. It’s true that they aren’t hostages, though, the vampires have no intention of releasing their hosts in exchange for concessions.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: So, do you feel a little sorry for Redcloak now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’m always curious about what afterlife that vampire’s host would go to. If you’re Neutral-to-Good your whole life (not because you really want to be, but because you’re supposed to be), and then, after being killed and having minimal-to-no capacity to influence the vampiric spirit in your body, you passively enjoy its actions...what would that mean for alignment? Would enjoying Evil activities that you have no capacity to prevent shift the dial?
    Within OOTS it does not seem as though they include posthumous actions when judging a soul's alignment.

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