DStP: V's futile attempts at rendezvousing

[BaronOfHell]

In the book DStP we see that due to cloister, V cannot solve how to communicate with Haley (and Belkar) to unsplit the party.
We also learn that within the afterlife, from the clouds before being Deva-judged, it is possible to scry through the effects of cloister.
Finally, (and perhaps completely irrelevant) in some strip, V mentions that the ghost of V would retain its spell casting powers.

Could V have solved the main issue of congregating the party "simply" (as in I have no idea how simple this would be) by plane shift into the LG afterlife and from this vantage point scry on Haley (and Belkar), or even communicate with Roy?

[deltamire]

In the book DStP we see that due to cloister, V cannot solve how to communicate with Haley (and Belkar) to unsplit the party.
We also learn that within the afterlife, from the clouds before being Deva-judged, it is possible to scry through the effects of cloister.
Finally, (and perhaps completely irrelevant) in some strip, V mentions that the ghost of V would retain its spell casting powers.

Could V have solved the main issue of congregating the party "simply" (as in I have no idea how simple this would be) by plane shift into the LG afterlife and from this vantage point scry on Haley (and Belkar), or even communicate with Roy?

Let me go re-read those pages, but wasn't the crux of the issue that Roy needed Eugene to cast the spell, as he was a high enough level wizard, and seemed to have certain experiences with scrying on top of his illusions?

[Fyraltari]

Considering V’s distaste of Divine magic, I doubt V has any idea of what the Afterlife can and can’t do.

[dancrilis]

Vaarsuvius doesn't have conjuration, Durkon would have to do it - and neither has any reason to assume that there is bonus scrying power in the upper planes to use.

I did actually suggest a similiar plan a few days ago (more about speaking to Roy) but even then merely finding Roy on an infinite plane might be a problem (especially without teleport magic).

[BaronOfHell]

@deltamire
Perhaps, but at least V know how to cast spells. I don't know if V could do it, I suppose it will be based on assumptions.

due to cloister, V cannot solve how to communicate with Haley (and Belkar) to unsplit the party.

Let me correct myself on this, V did solve the cloister issue with the birds. The only issue with the solution was that it didn't work, but I suppose that is a minor detail.

I did actually suggest a similiar plan a few days ago (more about speaking to Roy)

I was afraid this might have had come up before. My apologies if my thread is a duplicate.

[deltamire]

@deltamire
Perhaps, but at least V know how to cast spells. I don't know if V could do it, I suppose it will be based on assumptions.

dancrillis is right - Conjuration is one of V's barred schools, and as such cannot cast the necessary spells to yoink themself into the LG afterlife, even if they could cast the necessary scrying. Unless the party is willing to do a buddy-system style of someone going along with them as a sort of handler, I don't think this tactic would have worked.

[The Pilgrim]

Yes, she could have done that.

It would have involved having to rely on Durkon anf his "not really magic" Divine Magic for the Plane Shift, though.

It would have also involved knowledge of the fact that scrying from the LG pre-Afterlife gives epic bonus.

[BaronOfHell]

It would have also involved knowledge of the fact that scrying from the LG pre-Afterlife gives epic bonus.

This point was also brought up by Fyraltari as well, a very interesting point I have given more thought to. I thought a very crucial question had to be answered for it to make sense. That is why don't everyone, or at least most high level parties, not use this effect for epic scrying?

My first thought was that all those who possess this knowledge may not have any reason to share it with anyone in particular, also let's include that most likely not many people in this world can scry in the first place.

Who could possess this knowledge? My guess is only people who are stuck for a sufficient time period similar to Eugene, because the far far majority will slip through this plane faster than they realize this is an option, and again a huge majority of these people wouldn't know what to do with this information anyway, not being adventures.

At first I thought when Eugene referred to the denizens of the Upper Planes, then even though the image only display outsiders, I thought he meant souls as well, hence I rejected the whole idea: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

But in every following mention, only outsiders are specified, first by Roy's Archon: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html

Then by Eugene himself: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html

Therefore my guess is that the ability to gain epic scrying by planeshifting to the afterlife demiplane which Roy went on, is some very obscure knowledge in this world. Perhaps the only people with both access to scrying, who are still alive, and who holds this knowledge, is the order themselves?

[The Pilgrim]

This point was also brought up by Fyraltari as well, a very interesting point I have given more thought to. I thought a very crucial question had to be answered for it to make sense. That is why don't everyone, or at least most high level parties, not use this effect for epic scrying??

Ok, let's speculate.

We know that it's a demiplane "where celestials come to watch the mortals" (Eugene). We also know it's a place where LG souls are "stocked" before being processed into the LG Afterlife Plane.

Plane Shift needs a material component to work: "A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures". This means a magic user has to know not only that the demiplane actually exists, but also the metal and size the Rod needs to be in order to be able to enter that demiplane.

So that's already two obscure things a magic user needs to know in order to get there. In addition to the already mentioned obscure thing they need to know in order to have a reason to planeshift there: That the Demiplane grants epic bonuses to scrying.

Let's introduce one more hurdle. According to Eugene, the demiplane has "scrying power to spare". We can, therefore, infer that tapping on that power actually diminishes the energy of the Demiplane. We can then assume that the Celestials aren't, thus, happy to have people freely accessing and parasiting the energy stores of that demiplane.

This assumption means Celestials are interested in:
1) Not spreading knowledge of that particular trait of the Demiplane.
2) Not spreading knowledge about how to shape the material component to Plane Shift into the Demiplane.
3) Not spreading knowledge about the existence of the Demiplane at all.
4) Blasting away any unauthorized intruder.

All those assumptions are enough to justify why there isn't people wandering there to tap on the scrying power of the Demiplane.

Eugene is allowed to frolic there because... because he's stuck there, by the cosmic laws of the Big Book of LG. It would be rude for the Celestials to forbid their prisoner from looking out the window of his cell.

[Psyren]

Could V have solved the main issue of congregating the party "simply" (as in I have no idea how simple this would be) by plane shift into the LG afterlife and from this vantage point scry on Haley (and Belkar), or even communicate with Roy?

If V knew about this, and if that power source is even usable by the living, and if V was allowed to use it given that they are not LG, and if they knew how to incorporate it into their own magic... there's a lot of ifs in this plan, so the simple answer is "No, V couldn't."

[Darth Paul]

If V knew about this, and if that power source is even usable by the living, and if V was allowed to use it given that they are not LG, and if they knew how to incorporate it into their own magic... there's a lot of ifs in this plan, so the simple answer is "No, V couldn't."

And, for character reasons, "Even if V could have, they wouldn't have, since V was determined to prove that arcane magic by itself could save the day." Given that there's a heavy involvement of divine magic here, even if V could have done it, they would likely have turned their back on the solution, because it would have disproved the thesis that sufficiently powerful arcane magic could do it all.

Although now that I read again, maybe not so much with the Plane Shift solution, but with the previous suggestions.

[BaronOfHell]

if that power source is even usable by the living

This is a very good question. I think it could be interesting to speculate upon the mechanics behind access to power sources depending on current monster type (here I assume a soul is a different creature than e.g. a human or an elf), if such mechanics actually exists.

Also we don't know how long it took Eugene to incorporate that power source into his own magic abilities, and if the assumption that the outsiders of said demiplane may even attack visitors who aren't supposed to be there, especially if they tap into that power, then it can becomes even more troublesome to find the time necessary.
Also I am not certain how inclined V would be to follow such a path of procedure without at least believing it could work in the first place, taking great risk for a goal that could take a long time and guarantees no reward.

Otherwise I agree with The Pilgrim in that the method would not be theoretically impossible, but practically entirely unreasonable for V to pull off back then.

Btw. speaking of things V couldn't possible know, could an alternative solution to finding Haley (and Belkar) have been using speak with the dead on Eugene, assuming they can find his body?

[dancrilis]

Btw. speaking of things V couldn't possible know, could an alternative solution to finding Haley (and Belkar) have been using speak with the dead on Eugene, assuming they can find his body?

Depends - normally no.
As you are not speaking with the dead soul you are speaking with the dead body (see here), so it only knows what it knew when it died.

However in OOTS it may actually be a conjuring of the soul so perhaps they could actually get information from him - if they knew where he was, knew they had reason to contact him, and were able to make their way to where he was, and if his corpse is still intact enough to answer questions (and if he isn't bound not to reveal secrets gained post death).

Edit: It is also a Cleric spell so not an option for Vaarsuvius anyway (without help).

[RatElemental]

Regarding mortals just using the plane all willy nilly, you aren't often up against epic abjurations that need epic divinations to pierce. Normal divinations will do the trick most of the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

Let me correct myself on this, V did solve the cloister issue with the birds. The only issue with the solution was that it didn't work, but I suppose that is a minor detail.

And you know that they were tasty, since Belkar's culinary skills were available.

[Psyren]

Depends - normally no.
However in OOTS it may actually be a conjuring of the soul so perhaps they could actually get information from him - if they knew where he was, knew they had reason to contact him, and were able to make their way to where he was, and if his corpse is still intact enough to answer questions (and if he isn't bound not to reveal secrets gained post death).

#95 was pre-Cerebus, which makes it even more geared toward Rule of Funny over game rules than spells are currently adjudicated. I would take any spell mechanics from those early issues with a grain of salt.

Let me correct myself on this, V did solve the cloister issue with the birds. The only issue with the solution was that it didn't work, but I suppose that is a minor detail.

Researching an enhanced version of Animal Messenger is a useful tactic, because it is technically an Enchantment rather than a Divination. If I had to guess, V's enhancements included using an animal capable of (parroted) speech to deliver his message verbally as opposed to carrying a written missive, and improving the animal's ability to track a person as opposed to a landmark.

This is a very good question. I think it could be interesting to speculate upon the mechanics behind access to power sources depending on current monster type (here I assume a soul is a different creature than e.g. a human or an elf), if such mechanics actually exists.

Also we don't know how long it took Eugene to incorporate that power source into his own magic abilities, and if the assumption that the outsiders of said demiplane may even attack visitors who aren't supposed to be there, especially if they tap into that power, then it can becomes even more troublesome to find the time necessary.
Also I am not certain how inclined V would be to follow such a path of procedure without at least believing it could work in the first place, taking great risk for a goal that could take a long time and guarantees no reward.

Otherwise I agree with The Pilgrim in that the method would not be theoretically impossible, but practically entirely unreasonable for V to pull off back then.

Btw. speaking of things V couldn't possible know, could an alternative solution to finding Haley (and Belkar) have been using speak with the dead on Eugene, assuming they can find his body?

Unlike regular D&D, OotS petitioners appear to keep their class abilities (both on the cloud and in their respective aferlives), at least for a fairly long while.

[dancrilis]

#95 was pre-Cerebus, which makes it even more geared toward Rule of Funny over game rules than spells are currently adjudicated. I would take any spell mechanics from those early issues with a grain of salt.

I believe that The Giant is on record as caring less about mechanics as time has went on - and also of trying to ensure that the early stuff remains correct.

[Psyren]

I believe that The Giant is on record as caring less about mechanics as time has went on - and also of trying to ensure that the early stuff remains correct.

Yes and no. There are points in the early strips where rules are disregarded for punchlines almost entirely. This is just another example of that.

You could draw a graph of "rules fidelity" with a peak somewhere in the No Cure/War & XPs era and trending downward (but never disappearing entirely) from there.