What kind of goblin was the dark one? Any racial bias towards other goblins?

[WolvesbaneIII]

Redcloak hated the hob goblins. I don't know the D&D lore. do any goblins hate green goblins? If the Dark one was a green goblin hating goblin, is there any possibility the dark one is just using RC for purposes that do benefit goblinkind...with the exception of the green sort?

What do we know about the dark one? pre godhood that is.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak hated the hob goblins. I don't know the D&D lore. do any goblins hate green goblins? If the Dark one was a green goblin hating goblin, is there any possibility the dark one is just using RC for purposes that do benefit goblinkind...with the exception of the green sort?

What do we know about the dark one? pre godhood that is.

I recommend you read Start of Darkness.

With that said, almost nothing. He was apparently an uniquely purple-skinned wolf-riding goblin warlord who was murdered during a parley with some human nations.

[hroþila]

The Dark One was supposed to be a goblin with anomalously purple skin, he wasn't a member of a purple-skinned goblinoid subspecies (the skins of his clansmen were explicitly different). His whole shtick while alive was uniting the goblinoid peoples and he's shown surrounded by an army of both goblins and hobgoblins in SoD.

As for goblinoids hating goblins, there's the prisoner, who professed to hate the "greenskins". He was imprisoned for beating up a goblin immigrant.

[understatement]

Also, he welcomes all types of goblinoids into his afterlife army, except for norkers and nilbogs, unfortunately.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak's grudge was personal rather that racial (panel 14) a different goblin without his history migth be fine with Hobgoblins (such as persumedly the green guys in the crowd panel 10), and hobgoblins don't seem to have any issue with goblins - they love there supreme leader (panel 3) - at worst they were unsure about him (panel 4 (or 9 if you read each page seperately)).

None of that is to say that the Dark One is not engaged in poor bahaviour towards any of the goblinoid races over the others - but we have no reason to assume he is.

What we can safely assume about The Dark One from the online comic:
1: He exists.
2: He is a god or demigod.
3: He ascended as a deity relatively recently.
4: He is worshiped by the goblins.
5: He has not spoken to his High Priest in 35 years.
6: He has an afterlife plane where many goblin souls have found their eternal rest (for lack or a better word).
There may be other items I have missed.

I don't actually know if we really can take anything else about him for as even a safe assumption, Start of Darkness expands that list a decent bit but we still know very little.

[Aidan]

My personal head-canon is, TDO in life hid whether he was a Goblin or Hobgoblin and by claiming to not hold allegiance to one side or the other he was able to unite the groups in his war against the other races.

[KorvinStarmast]

6: He has an afterlife plane where many goblin souls have found their eternal rest (for lack or a better word).

Eternal Reward. The better word.

[The Pilgrim]

Whatever TDO was in life, we know that Belief from worshippers does affect the appearance and personality of a God. So it's possible TDO wasn't purple-skinned when alive, but is now because His followers believe so.

Likewise, the goblins doesn't seem to believe TDO to be racially biased towards different kinds of goblins. So he probably isn't. Well, bugbears apparently believe that He is partial to goblins and hobgoblins, but they are a minority. Goblins and Hobgoblins are far more numerous and more devoted to Him, so their Belief certainly prevails over that from the bugbears.

[InvisibleBison]

Whatever TDO was in life, we know that Belief from worshippers does affect the appearance and personality of a God. So it's possible TDO wasn't purple-skinned when alive, but is now because His followers believe so.

Likewise, the goblins doesn't seem to believe TDO to be racially biased towards different kinds of goblins. So he probably isn't. Well, bugbears apparently believe that He is partial to goblins and hobgoblins, but they are a minority. Goblins and Hobgoblins are far more numerous and more devoted to Him, so their Belief certainly prevails over that from the bugbears.

I would be hesitant to make any assertions about how the belief of his followers is affecting the Dark One, because we know neither how long it takes for those changes to occur nor how long ago the Dark One ascended. It's possible that he's been changed enormously by his followers' beliefs; it's also possible that he hasn't been changed at all.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, he welcomes all types of goblinoids into his afterlife army, except for norkers and nilbogs, unfortunately.

They were just in the back, arming the catapults that fire nitroglycerin elementals. All that "goblin engineer" archetype had to go somewhere

[The Pilgrim]

They were just in the back, arming the catapults that fire nitroglycerin elementals. All that "goblin engineer" archetype had to go somewhere

Nilbog + Nitroglycerin Elemental sounds like a lot of fun. And a great way for mass healing goblinoid armies, if aimed correctly.

[KorvinStarmast]

They were just in the back, arming the catapults that fire nitroglycerin elementals. All that "goblin engineer" archetype had to go somewhere

Is the goblin engineer/mechanic archetype from Warcraft II originally, or did Blizzard get that from somewhere earlier in some lore somewhere? I don't remember it from AD&D 2d edition, but that may just be my memory starting to erode around the edges.

[dancrilis]

Is the goblin engineer/mechanic archetype from Warcraft II originally, or did Blizzard get that from somewhere earlier in some lore somewhere? I don't remember it from AD&D 2d edition, but that may just be my memory starting to erode around the edges.

Warhammer (at the least) I believe had it first (to an extent).

[hamishspence]

The Hobbit also has allusions in that direction:

They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.

[Morty]

That would be one of the signs that the Hobbit was never meant to be part of the Tolkien Legendarium and was grandfathered in. The height of technology for LotR orcs are sharp bits of metal.

Anyway, there's very little we know about the Dark One that's actually reliable. And all of it concerns him as a god here and now, not his history beforehand. The story of his ascension is relayed to us by Redcloak in a crayon section, so it's explicitly his own words. And even he admits he's just repeating legends and hearsay.

[The MunchKING]

Is the goblin engineer/mechanic archetype from Warcraft II originally, or did Blizzard get that from somewhere earlier in some lore somewhere? I don't remember it from AD&D 2d edition, but that may just be my memory starting to erode around the edges.

MtG did it for the Goblins on Mirrodin. That card says 1996, Wikipedia says Warcraft came out in 1994. I don't know if it was an intentional homage, or if it was a coincidence, but Blizzard beat MtG to it.

[The MunchKING]

The story of his ascension is relayed to us by Redcloak in a crayon section, so it's explicitly his own words. And even he admits he's just repeating legends and hearsay.

Really? I thought he said he got it out of the "backstory fill-in" he got from the Red Cloak. Let me go check my copy of SoD.

Yeah, he explicitly calls it "the Secret Lore of the Crimson Mantle" right before launching into the story with that bit in it. So if he's wrong, it's probably because the Dark One told it to him wrong. or "from a certain point of view".

[Psyren]

I can't speak to TDO's proclivities towards other goblins in life, but Gobbotopia certainly is welcoming of all goblin subraces. Hobgoblins form the majority of their population but we've seen both aquatic variants and Blues on-panel.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, he explicitly calls it "the Secret Lore of the Crimson Mantle" right before launching into the story with that bit in it. So if he's wrong, it's probably because the Dark One told it to him wrong. or "from a certain point of view".

It is possible that goblin creation was goblin lore before the Dark One became a deity and so he just believes what he learned himself and had no way of actually checking (and the only people he could ask are not known for being the most honest bunch - as far as we know).

[hamishspence]

That would be one of the signs that the Hobbit was never meant to be part of the Tolkien Legendarium and was grandfathered in. The height of technology for LotR orcs are sharp bits of metal.

Orthanc is somewhat industrialised, and bombs are used at the Battle of Helm's Deep. How much of that is Saruman on his own, and how much the orcs at Saruman's prompting?

[Fyraltari]

That would be one of the signs that the Hobbit was never meant to be part of the Tolkien Legendarium and was grandfathered in. The height of technology for LotR orcs are sharp bits of metal.

Do note that text says they may have invented those « since then », as in some time between the end of the Third Age and the twentieth century.

Also the earliest version of the Legendarium had tanks in the battle of Gondolin, Saruman’s « spell » at Helm’s Deep is hinted to have been gunpowder and the burning hit steam used on an Ent at Orthanc points to a working steam engine.

It’s also basically stated that the Numenoreans used to have technology superior to what’s in use in the Third Age.

Not to mention Gandalf and his fireworks.

[hroþila]

I'm on team "The Númenóreans had ironclads and flying ships".
(And possibly cruise missiles? The references are vague, and at any rate Tolkien most likely changed his mind later)

[Sonata Arctica]

Just wondering: when did The Dark One live? Could he be contemporary to the Order of The Scribble?

[Fyraltari]

Just wondering: when did The Dark One live? Could he be contemporary to the Order of The Scribble?

No, we know that a priest of his discovered Lirian's Rift before the Scribblers sealed it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm on team "The Númenóreans had ironclads and flying ships".
(And possibly cruise missiles? The references are vague, and at any rate Tolkien most likely changed his mind later)

Toliken died long before cruise missiles as you and I know them existed. On the other hand, he was around for the V2 rockets, and the V1 buzz bomb is "sort of" a cruise missile. (It lacked the guidance packages that make cruise missiles what they are today, but you can argue that they are the proto-cruise missile)

I am comfortable with Numenoreans having ironclads, or at least some iron cladding on some of their warships, but I can't recall any flying ship reference (reliable) in any of Tolkiens lore that I have read.

[Sonata Arctica]

No, we know that a priest of his discovered Lirian's Rift before the Scribblers sealed it.

Source? Don't remember it in SoD, but I may be wrong...

[hamishspence]

I am comfortable with Numenoreans having ironclads, or at least some iron cladding on some of their warships, but I can't recall any flying ship reference (reliable) in any of Tolkiens lore that I have read.

Earendil's ship that he uses to battle Ancalagon the Black, flies - but that's implied to be mostly the Valar's work - magic more than technology. The Silmarillion suggests they modified his existing sailing ship, but Bilbo's song in LoTR suggests that they made him a new one:

LOTR

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

The Silmarillion:

But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven.

Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world.

...

Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.

But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.

[Fyraltari]

Not that that poem in LotR is, by Bilbo's own admission, him making stuff up. He (and other poets, traditionnally speaking) is more interested in making a good poem than sticking to historical facts he didn't even witness anyway.

[hamishspence]

It's true that Bilbo doesn't know for sure - but when it comes to spacefaring, it actually makes more sense to me that they'd make an all-new metal ship than that they'd modify an existing wooden one.


Both Bilbo and the elven bard who wrote that part of the Silmarillion are probably operating on limited information.

But the idea that the Valar aren't just divinities, but also have technology at their disposal (possibly built by those Noldor that returned to Valinor instead of following Feanor into exile - Finarfin and his followers), kind of appeals to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Earendil's ship that he uses to battle Ancalagon the Black, flies - but that's implied to be mostly the Valar's work - magic more than technology.

That ship never ended up in Numenor. It flew up into the heavens, bearing a silmaril, and is now a star in Middle Earth that people see in the sky. The three silmarils ended up in the earth, in the sea, and in the sky. The one Earendil carries/wields sails across the sky with him. IIRC the star is referred to as Earendil, or Earendil the Mariner. All of this is first age stuff.

The Numenoreans were Second Age, Elros' kin and descendants.
IIRC, Earendil was Elros' and Elrond's ancestor (Father).

I'm not seeing Numenorean flying ships from that. (But I am open to it from other lore that I have not read)

But the idea that the Valar aren't just divinities, but also have technology at their disposal (possibly built by those Noldor that returned to Valinor instead of following Feanor into exile - Finarfin and his followers), kind of appeals to me.

Yeah, but I think that other than Aule the Smith, mostly Maia who are into techology, not the Vala.