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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Talking the stage musical, primarily. I've never seen the Jack Nicholson version, but insights from that are more than welcome.

    Audrey II, of course, makes no biological sense. I don't think that matters, really. Audrey II is such a compelling villain because it plays on the raw nerve of the human passions, because it must for some mysterious reason manipulate its victims, who always really do have a choice until it's too late.

    Except, apparently, for the influence it bears on getting people to spend money. Seemingly, that's limited only by the number of people who have heard of Audrey II.

    I want to know your theories as to why that distinction exists.
    Last edited by DomaDoma; 2020-07-09 at 06:30 AM.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Audrey II's influence is that it's a heckin' cool fly trap and people will immediately be drawn to that due to just looking really cool. Whether your version has it as a demon or a space alien, it is unquestionably otherworldly, and humans are drawn in by stuff like that. Once you get it alone and it can start sweet talking you, the sheer surprise of "oh it's a talking plant!" plus the alluring promise that sounds so, so true, that it can get you anything you want, just sucks you in.

    Of course like you said, they always had a choice not to do the things the flower asks, they always had the choice to ignore its sweet seduction, but the musical makes a point of noting something that I think is... kind of true.

    People who buy plants, the plants you buy kinda reveals who you are. People who buy a low maintenance plant are going to be the people who don't think they can take care of it, for example. The only people who'd ever buy a fly trap are those who know implicitly that they'll have to... you know, feed it living creatures. This isn't necessarily a bad sign, since virtually all pets you can take care of have that same caveat, but there's something to be said for the sort of torture a fly trap puts insects through is kinda horrifying- especially since unlike pets they don't accept pre-dead food. It must be fresh, as the film itself said.

    The majority of the people who buy Audrey II are likely going to be the sort of people who wouldn't mind causing that to happen... and given the size of Audrey II, it likely would need something other than insects. Like rats, potentially. And anyone looking at Audrey II and thinking about buying one would likely realize that as well. So the people buying this are those perfectly willing to opt in to feeding live mice to a torture plant.

    Or, as the musical calls them, unsuspecting jerks from Maine to California. Which I think encompasses both people who are consciously aware that they're not the greatest people because they willingly bought the animal torture plant, but also people who bought it "cause it looks cool" and don't realize how far they're willing to go until they have an axe in their hand and the local sadist dentist is dead at their feet.

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Euphoric Pollen.
    People who breath in Audrey's pollen feel GOOD. Light headed, happy and with their judgement impaired. Breathe it long enough and ideas that it can grant you wishes if you just feed it that jerk you hate anyway start to seem like a perfectly reasonable idea.
    Obviously you need to have one in your presence for a reasonably long time before things get that extreme but just being in the same room as one gives you a mild high where the idea of buying this weird plant seems like a great one. As you keep feeling this way around it you obviously tell your friends who check it out, get a dose of the pollen and decide that 'yeah getting one of these seems like a idea'. Word of mouth and customer satisfaction drive sales through the rook
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    It's a little ambiguous how much is meant to be spooky plant-alien hypnotism and how much is just sort of that musical comedy logic where, when people get into a thing, they do so instantly and with incredible enthusiasm. I don't know if it's possible to really delineate how much is one or the other.

    That said, to the degree that it is the plant's influence, I think it's the equivalent of a sky high Charisma score. Same reason it's able to talk a mousy janitor/store clerk into murder.

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    It is very much the Joker from The Dark Knight. Everyone on Skid Row is awful anyway, it offers Seymour a way out of poverty and an excuse to kill the jerks who live near him. Hayley killing her home town is pretty similar.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Honestly? While Audrey Jnr was hypnotic, Audrey II doesn't seem to have any powers.

    Audrey II is in a failing flower shop. It's stated to get practically no customers. Suddenly this new and exciting kind of Venus Flytrap is in the shop, and people come to see it, ask the staff where it's from, and some of them decide to buy something while they're there. Even if it's just a fifth of everybody who comes to see the plant it might be enough money to keep the peace open.

    That's really it, for both major versions (original film and musical). People come to the shop because of this strange and unusual plant. If it helps you imagine that is not the only city the plants appeared in, just the one where it took off.

    And then the real money comes from the deals, including talk show appearances, but a lot of that doesn't start cooking together until later. But that comes from Audrey II's main tool: prestige. Audrey II's manipulation of Seymour is based on the simple idea that without the plant Seymour loses his prestige, and as such becomes unable to get or keep the thing he actually wants (money, girls, one particular girl?). It's only when Seymour realises that Audrey I doesn't like him for his prestige and his plant, but actually likes him as a person, that Audrey II's hold breaks and it takes drastic measures to ensure it's plan succeeds.

    Because Audrey II doesn't control your mind. It's just very intelligent and very charismatic, and that 18 Charisma causes a lot of positive reactions even when it doesn't speak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It is very much the Joker from The Dark Knight. Everyone on Skid Row is awful anyway, it offers Seymour a way out of poverty and an excuse to kill the jerks who live near him. Hayley killing her home town is pretty similar.
    Who is Hayley?
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    Who is Hayley?
    Haley from OotS, I just threw in an extra letter, why because I can.

    The basis of the whole story is everyone in their neighborhood is awful. Abusive partners, abusive bosses, it's all garbage and they are at the bottom. Killing people you hate anyway to maintain fame is a pretty short jump, no hypnosis needed.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    The mass hysteria to get everyone to buy flowers might be a magic mental influence. However, I think the plant's ability to convince people to kill other people is a completely natural method of talking people into doing something that they already sort of wanted to do. My reason for this conclusion is the line from the last song
    The plants worked their terrible will
    Finding jerks who would feed them their ilk.
    Being susceptible to mind control doesn't make someone a jerk. But being willing to kill other people and feed them to a plant (even if you need to be talked into it) does. So, I agree with Grey Watcher that it is "sky high charisma."

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    It's been a while since I've seen any version of this. But I do have a non-diegetic explanation for the influence.

    The way I look at it, Audrey II is largely a metaphor for personal flaws. Your own demons know you better than you know yourself. Hence the 18 charisma, as others have noted.

    The set of characteristics Audrey II has is largely due to its role in the story, hence it's a smooth talker who knows just what it needs to say in order to manipulate its victims into doing what it wants. It grows because of the sunk-cost fallacy.

    If you want a diegetic explanation, I think there's a lot of potential answers that would be internally consistent. My suggestion would be psionics, as it's the sci-fi version of magic and the setting is supposed to be the modern world.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    If you want a diegetic explanation, I think there's a lot of potential answers that would be internally consistent. My suggestion would be psionics, as it's the sci-fi version of magic and the setting is supposed to be the modern world.
    I'm trying to remember the timescale, whether it's weeks or months. Either way, Audrey II doesn't even need to be compelling people to buy stuff, it's believable enough that it attracts more business by bringing more traffic, and this makes the speed of it's plan make more sense (got to get it over with before the fad dies off).

    As a side note, the plant was psychic in the original film, or at least could hypnotise people, and in many ways it's worse for it (still a great film, but Audrey Jr is nowhere near the scale of Audrey II).

    The problem with giving Audrey II mind altering powers is that it stops the message from being so Powerful. Audrey II preys on Seymour's failings to push it's plans forwards, and it loses a lot if it's not careful manipulation and instead mental influence. So basically what you said. But it's not like the plant needs an explanation for why it causes people to spend, it's a famous one of s kind plant and people want the ability to brag that they bought flowers from the shop with the weird flytrap. Possibly the best explanation you could have is 'it uses pheromones to get people to come closer', but even that doesn't quite work with just how attractive it so. So I'm going with 'alien plant exploiting a fad it created'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Audrey II is in a failing flower shop. It's stated to get practically no customers. Suddenly this new and exciting kind of Venus Flytrap is in the shop, and people come to see it, ask the staff where it's from, and some of them decide to buy something while they're there. Even if it's just a fifth of everybody who comes to see the plant it might be enough money to keep the peace open.
    But business IMMEDIATELY turns around for the flower shop as soon as Seymour puts Audrey II on display in the window, as they get their first customer (Christopher Guest) within minutes of doing so. That's not only amazing luck for the flower shop, but for the plant as well, as its whole plan hinges on as many idiots buying its cuttings as possible.

    Personally, I think Audrey II has a measure of control over probability. After revealing it is sentient to Seymour, the plant even says "Do you think this is all a coincidence, baby? The sudden success around here? The press coverage?"

    Everything else is just charisma and sweet promises, though.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2020-07-09 at 06:49 PM.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    But business IMMEDIATELY turns around for the flower shop as soon as Seymore puts Audrey II on display in the window, as they get their first customer (Christopher Guest) within minutes of doing so. That's not only amazing luck for the flower shop, but for the plant as well, as its whole plan hinges on as many idiots buying its cuttings as possible.
    Pure luck/dramatic licence. Apart from the 'needing Seymour to realise it needs blood' Audrey II doesn't care if the shop to succeeds today or next week as long as the cutting contract comes around before Seymour twigs the plan. Been a while since I saw the scene, but I believe they get one customer on his way home from work, there's some time for word of mouth to spread, and then business begins to boom. Might have been several customers, but there's still not enough that the shop is immediately saved, it's more support for Seymour's strategy than anything.

    Is it unlikely? Yes. Is it vanishingly unlikely? Not really. Like, if you want to believe the plant has powers go ahead, but to me that makes it a worse film. The plant to me works far better when it turns a stroke of good luck into a runaway success.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    I have no idea why Audrey II manipulating events with alien powers would detract from the story, but to each their own.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2020-07-09 at 08:35 PM.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    I have no idea why Audrey II manipulating events with alien powers would detract from the story, but to each their own.
    Because Little Shop of Horrors is just Faust with plants. The entire point is that our hero ****ed up incredibly, and at every single turn had a fair and proper choice that they could have taken to avoid their fate, and they choose to go down the bad path for petty, personal reasons. By the time they realized the consequences would be too severe, it was too late to back away, for their soul had already been lost.

    Making it so that Audrey II is brain controlling them takes away from the fact that the entire point of the story is that they done ****ed up willingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Making it so that Audrey II is brain controlling them takes away from the fact that the entire point of the story is that they done ****ed up willingly.
    Hold on a second there, pardner. I never said that Audrey II had mind controlling powers; if it did, it would have used them in the final battle with Seymour.

    I said Audrey II could manipulate probability (ie. change fate), which is how it just "happens" to be found by a young kid who's desperate for a better life, and how a bunch of affluent folks just "happen" to be passing a run-down flower shop in Skid Row.

    That also fits in with what you said about the story being Faust with plants — Audrey II legitimately offers Seymour all the success he could want, but its ultimate goal is to conquer the world and consume the human race.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2020-07-09 at 09:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    Hold on a second there, pardner. I never said that Audrey II had mind controlling powers; if it did, it would have used them in the final battle with Seymour.
    The final battle that involves Seymour climbing into Audrey II's mouth with a machete because nothing else he tried affected it?

    Yeah, definitely needed mind controlling powers there. Would have ley it win easily instead of win easily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Because Little Shop of Horrors is just Faust with plants. The entire point is that our hero ****ed up incredibly, and at every single turn had a fair and proper choice that they could have taken to avoid their fate, and they choose to go down the bad path for petty, personal reasons. By the time they realized the consequences would be too severe, it was too late to back away, for their soul had already been lost.

    Making it so that Audrey II is brain controlling them takes away from the fact that the entire point of the story is that they done ****ed up willingly.
    This. A true Faust story - in which a character sells their soul, metaphorically or literally, to enjoy unlimited successes in life - doesn't need to explain the how of what's happening. Frankly, you really could chalk it up to outrageous Charisma and nothing else - after all, the only change is that people keep coming to see this strange and interesting plant. Because of that, everything else is happening - the sudden success at Mushnik's, Seymour's adoption papers, it's all because of the people coming in, and the money coming along with them. There's no reason to find anything sinister beyond that.

    And on the earlier point - that the kind of plants people care for says a lot about the people - there's truth there, too. Early on, Seymour's actions towards A2 could have been seen as compassionate and curious - he found this strange and interesting plant, and just wanted to nurse it to health as a personal project.

    When the creepy little thing started drinking his blood, that should have been a warning sign to anybody that this should stop. When it upgraded to meat, that really should have been a red flag. When it told him to murder a man, stop, cease, desist.

    First one didn't even require a kill. He just had to not act. That's a classic Faustian slope right there - you're not killing, you're just standing by and waiting for the meat to come into existence. Second one was self-defense - if he didn't do it, everything would be ruined. So he had to.

    But all of that? All of that is Charisma. It's the force of personality, the presence in the room, and the silver tongue of a strange and interesting plant, convincing you - if you would only listen - that your interest in success and its interest in feeding are one and the same.

    The song - which has now been quoted multiple times - makes that clear. "Got sweet-talked into feeding it blood." "The plants worked their terrible will." It's all personality. Sweet-talking. Force of will. Charisma. Everything else that happened to Seymour was just a natural result of humans looking for novelty, and being drawn to that Charisma, even if unconsciously.
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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    The final battle that involves Seymour climbing into Audrey II's mouth with a machete because nothing else he tried affected it?
    In the movie version of Little Shop of Horrors, Audrey II toys with Seymour until it finally pulls down the flower shop, burying Seymour in rubble and “killing” him. As Audrey II laughs at his demise, Seymour’s arm emerges from the rubble and grabs an exposed electrical wire; he then sticks against one of Audrey II’s tendrils, causing it to explode.

    (And in the original “bad” ending of the film, which was changed because it tested poorly. the plant just pulls Seymour from the rubble and munches down on him. Then it conquers America.)

    If Audrey II could control minds, it could have just ordered Seymour to get in its mouth, as you said.

    I just think Audrey II has a Scarlet Witch-like control over the probability of certain events happening, like the odds of wealthy customers walking by a rundown flower shop down in SKID ROOOOOOOOOOOW.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2020-07-11 at 01:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    In the movie version of Little Shop of Horrors, Audrey II toys with Seymour until it finally pulls down the flower shop, burying Seymour in rubble and “killing” him. As Seymour II laughs at his demise, Seymour’s arm then bursts forth from the rubble and grabs an exposed electrical wire; he then sticks against one of Audrey II’s tendrils, causing it to explode.

    (And in the original “bad” ending of the film, which was changed because it tested poorly. the plant just pulls Seymour from the rubble and munches down on him. Then it conquers America.)

    If Audrey II could control minds, it could have just ordered Seymour to get in its mouth, as you said.

    I just think Audrey II has a Scarlet Witch-like control over the probability of certain events happening, like the odds of wealthy customers walking by a rundown flower shop down in SKID ROOOOOOOOOOOW.
    Yea, but the OP said the stage version, where the "final battle" is Seymour shooting the plant, then throwing rat poison, and then, when those have no effect, he gives up and tells the Audrey II to "open up," then dives in willingly with a sword.


    Anyhow, one particular scene which I think is more open to interpretation is the song "Suppertime" (the first version), where Mushnik suspects Seymour of killing Orrin. The Audrey II tempts Seymour into killing Mushnik (by telling him to knock on the plant in order to get that day's revenue), singing
    Quote Originally Posted by Audrey II
    Come on, come on,
    Think about all those offers
    Come on, come on,
    Your future with Audrey
    Come on, come on,
    Ain't no time to turn squeamish
    Come on, I swear on all my spores,
    When he's gone the world will be yours, yours
    Obviously, Mushnik can't hear the Audrey II singing, or else he'd know the plant was dangerous. I think there are at least three valid interpretations of how that works:

    1)It's a musical: the characters in a musical are not literally singing*, and they can only be heard by the audience and other characters who need to hear them for the sake of drama.

    2)The Audrey II has a telepathic power allowing them to project thoughts into Seymour's head. It isn't mind-control, so they still have to convince Seymour to do it, but they can speak to him without giving the game away to Mushnik.

    3)The Audrey II is not making any noise in that scene at all: the singing voice is really Seymour's inner monologue, anthropomorphized in the form of the Audrey II, thinking about what he will lose if Mushnik reports him to the police.


    *Unless it is a sufficiently meta musical, such as Starkid's The Guy Who Didn't Like Musicals (which you can watch on Youtube for free), which is another musical about a world-conquering alien invader. In TGWDLM, the world is threatened by an alien hive mind, who kills humans and turns them into pod-people. Everyone controlled by the hive-mind sings and dances like they are in a musical, much to the distress of the protagonist, who doesn't like musicals.

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggling Ghast View Post
    In the movie version of Little Shop of Horrors, Audrey II toys with Seymour until it finally pulls down the flower shop, burying Seymour in rubble and “killing” him. As Audrey II laughs at his demise, Seymour’s arm emerges from the rubble and grabs an exposed electrical wire; he then sticks against one of Audrey II’s tendrils, causing it to explode.
    None of which is in the stage version (or the original film, where the plant could hypnotise people, where Seymour accidentally falls in and we end in his flower opening).

    (And in the original “bad” ending of the film, which was changed because it tested poorly. the plant just pulls Seymour from the rubble and munches down on him. Then it conquers America.)
    And in the original ending Seymour climbs in of his own accord because his gin and poison don't work. But the film changed that because of the extra song.

    If Audrey II could control minds, it could have just ordered Seymour to get in its mouth, as you said.
    Didn't need to order him to. He climbs in of his own accord because nothing else worked.

    I just think Audrey II has a Scarlet Witch-like control over the probability of certain events happening, like the odds of wealthy customers walking by a rundown flower shop down in SKID ROOOOOOOOOOOW.
    Eh, it's a story. Do we have two unlikely events kicking it off, one of which isn't that unreasonable (for a run down neighbourhood Skid Row doesn't seem too dangerous, so the occasionally middle class person might wander by on their way home from work). Oh, and one more that's covered by 'Git It my be compressed from a longer period of time' (or compressed for that matter).

    Like, why on Earth does Audrey II need probability control. Here's an alternative explanation: 1000 plants appeared on Earth, of which 900 got bought by people who didn't know how to care for plants, with only ten of the rest being fed blood, of which we follow the only one lucky enough to be noticed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Key is that the plant never asks anyone to do anything that they didn't, on some level, already want to do. It's not exerting any compulsion; it's just offering an excuse. Go ahead and kill that jerk you wanted to kill, and you can jus tell yourself that the plant made you do it. The fact that the plant didn't actually make you do it is irrelevant, because you can still tell yourself that.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

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    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Key is that the plant never asks anyone to do anything that they didn't, on some level, already want to do. It's not exerting any compulsion; it's just offering an excuse. Go ahead and kill that jerk you wanted to kill, and you can jus tell yourself that the plant made you do it. The fact that the plant didn't actually make you do it is irrelevant, because you can still tell yourself that.
    This. Whether or not Audrey II manipulates probability so that people come onstage at exactly the right moment (some productions imply it, while others go for pure theatrical timing), this.

    Seymour hates being poor and loves being recognized and has this thing for Audrey and - and this is key - has a yellow streak so gigantic that, even with all the other motives exhausted, he will not confess and still hopes to quietly bury the whole thing. Audrey is way too eager to please. If you think the plant is manipulating people to whom it does not actually speak for Seymour's benefit, well, Mushnik really does have this monomania for money and Orrin really is an abusive scumbag.

    (Side note: Seymour was already cagey during the radio interview, when the plant's care regimen was ominous but not strictly definable as evil. From the outset, "I don't know if I should" is key. It makes one hide things.)

    I distinguish the commercial impulse, because who in their right mind wants a hundred dollars' worth of dead roses and in what world does one florist's exotic botany ever get to be the mainstream fad that's sweeping the nation?
    Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: How does Audrey II's influence work?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Audrey II's influence is that it's a heckin' cool fly trap and people will immediately be drawn to that due to just looking really cool. Whether your version has it as a demon or a space alien, it is unquestionably otherworldly, and humans are drawn in by stuff like that. Once you get it alone and it can start sweet talking you, the sheer surprise of "oh it's a talking plant!" plus the alluring promise that sounds so, so true, that it can get you anything you want, just sucks you in.

    Of course like you said, they always had a choice not to do the things the flower asks, they always had the choice to ignore its sweet seduction, but the musical makes a point of noting something that I think is... kind of true.

    People who buy plants, the plants you buy kinda reveals who you are. People who buy a low maintenance plant are going to be the people who don't think they can take care of it, for example. The only people who'd ever buy a fly trap are those who know implicitly that they'll have to... you know, feed it living creatures. This isn't necessarily a bad sign, since virtually all pets you can take care of have that same caveat, but there's something to be said for the sort of torture a fly trap puts insects through is kinda horrifying- especially since unlike pets they don't accept pre-dead food. It must be fresh, as the film itself said.

    The majority of the people who buy Audrey II are likely going to be the sort of people who wouldn't mind causing that to happen... and given the size of Audrey II, it likely would need something other than insects. Like rats, potentially. And anyone looking at Audrey II and thinking about buying one would likely realize that as well. So the people buying this are those perfectly willing to opt in to feeding live mice to a torture plant.

    Or, as the musical calls them, unsuspecting jerks from Maine to California. Which I think encompasses both people who are consciously aware that they're not the greatest people because they willingly bought the animal torture plant, but also people who bought it "cause it looks cool" and don't realize how far they're willing to go until they have an axe in their hand and the local sadist dentist is dead at their feet.
    Yeah, I think this is mostly true. Or to put it another way, it doesn't really manipulate anyone--it just gives them an excuse/reason to go ahead and do stuff they already want to do on some level.

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